Ramble about abortion.

[Prince Rilian]

I'm making this thread because I'm bored.

Whenever I come across an abortion debate, I end up arguing with the "pro-choice" people. I mean, I end up arguing against them. I think this is because between the two factions, the pro-choice people are more logical and at least make coherent statements that can usually be parsed and rebutted. The anti-abortion people just go "bababababapppppffffffff" so I don't even bother with them.

I'm pro-choice. Pregnancy seems really gross to me. If I were pregnant, I would get an abortion immediately. I used to be against late-term abortions, but having recently read this and having further considered the fact that pregnancy and childbirth are dangerous, I'm in favor of the option of abortion at any time, up until the water breaks I guess, or maybe even later? I'm not sure where to draw the line because I don't know the mechanics of it.

But 99% of the "pro-choice" people I see arguing on the interbutts say that a zygote/embryo/fetus is just a blob of cells, and they acknowledge no distinction between a 4-day old sphere of undifferentiated cells and a 9-month-old fetus on the verge of exiting the womb. (I don't like to call it birth because it perpetuates this weird conception that a baby literally pops out of nowhere when it comes out of the vagina. See this song.) They say that abortion is "not killing a child" as if that puts an end to the matter.

Upon exiting the womb, a normal, healthy baby is conscious and has feelings and can experience pain. I suppose that since all other things in humans develop over a period of time, instead of appearing instantly, consciousness and emotions develop over time too. At some point during gestation, the baby/fetus becomes, in the relavent sense, a "person". After that point, whenever it is (during the 8th month, according to my biology book), killing the fetus equals killing a person equals doing the fetus harm. That doesn't mean you shouldn't do it. But you should at least fucking acknowledge that you're doing it. "I'm sorry, fetus, but I just don't feel comfortable risking my life for yours."

But for some reason, most "pro-choice"-ers can't/won't do this. It doesn't make any sense, either. If you saw a 5-year-old about to get hit by a car, and you weren't sure if you could pull them out of the way before the car hit both of you, it would be reasonable and totally fine not to try to rescue them. You are not obligated to risk your life for other people. But yet somehow if a fetus "is a person", then people think that means you have to put its life above everyone else's.

So I argue against them and try to get them to admit that the fetus is or at least may be a person, an individual. And even if I preface my comments by saying that I am pro-choice, they still call me a fundamentalist and a misogynist.

Oh, and a fetus can't be an "individual" because it's attached to the mother via the umbilical cord. Right... say that to conjoined twins.

[LOON_ATTIC]

So you're a moderate but you get called a fundamentalist. Lulz... And yeah I agree mostly. IF THERE ARE SOULS then it could matter, if not then it I guess it doesn't. Blah morals.

[Prince Rilian]

I think it matters even less if souls exist. If you have a soul, then you go on existing after you die, so you don't really die. Perhaps the fetus/embryo still feels pain as their body dies, but at least they would get to go on existing.

[LOON_ATTIC]

Lol paradox lol. But then if you don't have a soul ceasing to exist in this world would make your existence useless or some shit!

Making shit up that you know nothing about is fun. No wonder religion exists.

[TheCancer]

I'm grateful that abortion kills human life. The humans that are actually born are causing enough trouble as it is.

[Prince Rilian]

(10-23-2011 04:54 PM)TheCancer Wrote:  I'm grateful that abortion kills human life. The humans that are actually born are causing enough trouble as it is.

Who are they causing trouble for? Humans annoy humans so we should kill the humans? But if none exist, we didn't help anyone.

[TheCancer]

Wolves, falcons, telepathic plants, alien mushrooms and me and my dog in a canoe. And billions of little windmills for all the dead babies that never made it. Lalalala

[SoulRiser]

Quote:That doesn't mean you shouldn't do it. But you should at least fucking acknowledge that you're doing it. "I'm sorry, fetus, but I just don't feel comfortable risking my life for yours."

But for some reason, most "pro-choice"-ers can't/won't do this. It doesn't make any sense, either. If you saw a 5-year-old about to get hit by a car, and you weren't sure if you could pull them out of the way before the car hit both of you, it would be reasonable and totally fine not to try to rescue them. You are not obligated to risk your life for other people. But yet somehow if a fetus "is a person", then people think that means you have to put its life above everyone else's.

THISTHISTHISTHISTHISTHISTHISTHISTHISTHISTHISTHIS x1000

I have never seen anyone else say this. It pisses me off that people really do seem to think babies/fetuses are somehow a bazillion times more valuable as human beings than older people. Which is totally fucked up when you think that as soon as they're a few years old, they're suddenly little pieces of shit that should shut up and follow orders and their feelings and thoughts are completely invalid. Until they're 18. But as soon as they're "old enough", they should give up all their wants and needs again in favour of a newborn baby or a fetus? What the fuck?

I mean, sure, human life is valuable (ALL of them, not based on age FFS), but at least be consistent about it in some kind of sensible manner.

[UnschoolShqiponjë]

Artificial wombs would solve many problems. Pro-Lifers could donate to institutes that take unwanted zygotes, fetuses, etc... and they would "birth" the babies and take care of them. Instead of wasting money being asses put it toward that and foster care. Also adopt.

[Prince Rilian]

(10-24-2011 10:03 AM)UnschoolShqiponjë Wrote:  Artificial wombs would solve many problems. Pro-Lifers could donate to institutes that take unwanted zygotes, fetuses, etc... and they would "birth" the babies and take care of them. Instead of wasting money being asses put it toward that and foster care. Also adopt.

Yeah.. I think some people would like to do that, but a lot of anti-abortion people would just say "no, it's your responsibility to care for your own child that you created".

[UnschoolShqiponjë]

(10-24-2011 10:30 AM)Prince Rilian Wrote:  

(10-24-2011 10:03 AM)UnschoolShqiponjë Wrote:  Artificial wombs would solve many problems. Pro-Lifers could donate to institutes that take unwanted zygotes, fetuses, etc... and they would "birth" the babies and take care of them. Instead of wasting money being asses put it toward that and foster care. Also adopt.

Yeah.. I think some people would like to do that, but a lot of anti-abortion people would just say "no, it's your responsibility to care for your own child that you created".

Then they are fucking idiots.

[Prince Rilian]

Yep.

[Elfy]

Well then I'm one of the few people who don't agree with abortion that agree that the artificial womb thing is a good idea.

I just believe that a fetus has no control over coming into the world and it is no ones choice whether or not it should be aborted. The heart is beating and it is a living organism. It's just my personal feelings and belief that sways me to be against abortion, to me it's not right. But hey, I'm not gonna point a gun at your head and say you can't have an abortion, I respect free will.

Quote:I'm grateful that abortion kills human life. The humans that are actually born are causing enough trouble as it is.

But unborn human life are completely innocent, for me that doesn't justify it at all...

[UnschoolShqiponjë]

(10-24-2011 11:29 AM)Elfy Wrote:  Well then I'm one of the few people who don't agree with abortion that agree that the artificial womb thing is a good idea.

I just believe that a fetus has no control over coming into the world and it is no ones choice whether or not it should be aborted. The heart is beating and it is a living organism. It's just my personal feelings and belief that sways me to be against abortion, to me it's not right. But hey, I'm not gonna point a gun at your head and say you can't have an abortion, I respect free will.

This is exactly how I feel. Which is why I was researching into artificial wombs.

I also think adoption should become much easier and that it should be promoted so much more than it is now. I plan on adopting at least one kid and maybe more when I have a partner.

[Blobthe15]

[gore goroth]

(10-26-2011 10:21 AM)Blobthe15 Wrote:  

Hey, im the one supposed to be using George Carlin posts. >:/

[avrillavigne12251]

I dont like abortion, but do what you want, if you wanna have an abortion, do it, idc.

The only argument that pro-lifers have that pisses me off is
"What if your mother had an abortion?"
-_- she didnt. and if i was gonna be born into shit, i would probably be better off aborted.

Also, since abortion is killing a child, does that mean theres like, unborn fetuses in heaven? just saying.