The Anti-School Movement - Where Are We Now?

[GamerGurl]

I felt like bringing this up for a while because quite frankly I feel like our movement is nonexistent. I've been told by someone that we've actually made huge progress outside places such as SS, but if that's the case why hasn't compulsory schooling been questioned by at least a local government? Surely that would end up being televised on national TV for everyone else in the U.S. to see.

Why aren't we taking at least some drastic measures? I'm not talking about "disrespecting authority" or anything, but why not create peaceful protests and stuff like that? We do have the freedom of assembly. If there are in fact so many other people – students, parents, and even teachers – who feel the same way we do, why haven't we done stuff like this to come together?

For some time I've been contemplating of making some sort of public FB event so we can organize a week to protest school and the whole back-to-school nightmare that's the precursor to obviously get ready for school. A FB event where anyone can invite anyone else who'd support this movement, that would be sponsored by none other than School Survival, and we can share pictures of not only students, but parents and teachers who disagree with the compulsory school setting while hopefully getting some media coverage as a bonus. Of course, this would require a charismatic person to lead such an event (and I don't think I'm that charismatic if at all) and someone who might have some fame to them. I want to be a famous person on the internet so obviously that's not me. I'm only another random user on the internet so getting something like this mainstreamed would be highly unlikely.

I noticed some other users in the past who posted ideas like this on this forum only for it to be discussed for a few posts but then turn into a whole why-it-wouldn't-work type of thing. Maybe for those that took a more hostile approach, but I don't see how it being peaceful would cause much harm if that would be one of the many ways of going about this protest.

Or maybe I should face that fact that we're still a minority? Or us possibly being a minority is exacerbated by the fact that are community is kind of split? We have a community here, discussions on G+ (which, let's face it, isn't really the ideal forum for connecting), a few on FB (the SS group has pretty much died, Beyond School wasn't much of a success, etc.), and possibly some other places online which are kind of hidden because they aren't as big as this forum.

I don't feel like enough's being done to make our general viewpoint on compulsory schooling across. Yes, there's tons of videos on YT, articles across various other forums and blogs and news sites and online communities, but I feel like our voices are still being unheard and frankly we're not being taken all that seriously enough.

I've been thinking that if I maybe become e-famous one day I could possibly try and do this myself with some help from SS, but I'm getting impatient and maybe I shouldn't do this all on my own. I'm so discouraged by all of this because school more or less has ruined my life as of now and I know I'm not alone.

Your thoughts?

[Ky]

Others are engaging in protests. Not only does is our movement advancing very slowly, but despite School Survival's longevity there are other people doing the same thing we're doing, but better. If we had any political sway at all in the past, we don't anymore; there are more well-known groups out there dedicated to giving students a voice, and some of our own members have their own political sites to attend to.

If fame is what you're looking for, I don't think you'll find it here. It's taken me two goddamn years to figure out that we are probably not going to be the spotlight of the movement if the movement even gets any media attention at all. To the masses at large, we are easily forgettable and more easily ignored.

This does not mean we are not a part of something great.

We can depoliticize - the issue of schooling transcends our government, after all, and we're a community dedicated to helping individuals survive school. We've been helping people, one by one, for years (even in the various dark ages!), and I would say many of us have gotten quite skilled at it. Let's face it, we don't have it in our power (as a forum, anyway) to lobby for change, but we do have it in our power to raise awareness for the current state of affairs and to offer our support to students who happen to find us. That's what we've been doing all these years - it's our niche. This is what organizations like StuVoice and whatnot can't take away from us.

Of course, we need to figure out where we stand, first.

[James Comey]

Isn't there some student conference in NYC next month? I imagine if we take advantage of that, we could probably increase our popularity. Sadly, we've been held back in a big way by what happened over the summer.

[Ky]

I see the conference as a shot in the dark. If we want to get political, though, that's our avenue.

[GamerGurl]

(08-19-2014 02:44 AM)DoA Wrote:  Others are engaging in protests. Not only does is our movement advancing very slowly, but despite School Survival's longevity there are other people doing the same thing we're doing, but better. If we had any political sway at all in the past, we don't anymore; there are more well-known groups out there dedicated to giving students a voice, and some of our own members have their own political sites to attend to.

If fame is what you're looking for, I don't think you'll find it here. It's taken me two goddamn years to figure out that we are probably not going to be the spotlight of the movement if the movement even gets any media attention at all. To the masses at large, we are easily forgettable and more easily ignored.

This does not mean we are not a part of something great.

We can depoliticize - the issue of schooling transcends our government, after all, and we're a community dedicated to helping individuals survive school. We've been helping people, one by one, for years (even in the various dark ages!), and I would say many of us have gotten quite skilled at it. Let's face it, we don't have it in our power (as a forum, anyway) to lobby for change, but we do have it in our power to raise awareness for the current state of affairs and to offer our support to students who happen to find us. That's what we've been doing all these years - it's our niche. This is what organizations like StuVoice and whatnot can't take away from us.

Of course, we need to figure out where we stand, first.

I just believe we're the only one true movement. I feel as if other movements are trying to compromise with the other side TBH. I want us to be totally free of the burden of school. I don't think we should be subject to torment by classmates, teachers, work, administration, etc. I'll admit I'm very radical when it comes to this but I don't wanna settle for less. I want to fight back in the way I feel is necessary, and after recently watching The War on Kids movie it's fueled my ambition to not give up on SS or our movement.

I think you misunderstood – I'm not looking for fame through here. What I meant was that if I somehow became successful in the hobbies that I want to make my careers, then somehow I'd be able to advertise SS and what we are and to possibly have some of my followers come here and learn about us and support us. Then try and become more politically involved with our movement through SS and go on from there.

If we don't have this power to lobby for change, what can we do to change that? I remind myself so much of xcriteria right now because I'm coming up with all these questions, and what frustrates me is that I want to sometimes try and do this all on my own and I don't even have the answers to them.

I think it's pretty clear where we stand, but I want to change that and improve from where we on. I want SS to make its own mark and maybe we can finally be taken seriously. It's pretty surprising that SS has been around since 1999 and that we haven't made the leaps with this movement and possibly even leading this movement like I think we should be.

(08-19-2014 04:16 AM)Hansgrohe Wrote:  Isn't there some student conference in NYC next month? I imagine if we take advantage of that, we could probably increase our popularity. Sadly, we've been held back in a big way by what happened over the summer.

Unless it was paid for there's no way I could go to that. Of course, if we had certain members who had the means and resources to go they could group up, maybe make a FB event about it and note what the SS attendants said and did.

[KFC Nyan Cat]

I think the Facebook event is a good idea except it should extend to YouTube, Google+, Twitter, Pintrest, and maybe even more taboo sites like DeviantArt and Myspace.

[brainiac3397]

(08-19-2014 06:00 AM)SirMarty Wrote:  

(08-19-2014 02:44 AM)DoA Wrote:  Others are engaging in protests. Not only does is our movement advancing very slowly, but despite School Survival's longevity there are other people doing the same thing we're doing, but better. If we had any political sway at all in the past, we don't anymore; there are more well-known groups out there dedicated to giving students a voice, and some of our own members have their own political sites to attend to.

If fame is what you're looking for, I don't think you'll find it here. It's taken me two goddamn years to figure out that we are probably not going to be the spotlight of the movement if the movement even gets any media attention at all. To the masses at large, we are easily forgettable and more easily ignored.

This does not mean we are not a part of something great.

We can depoliticize - the issue of schooling transcends our government, after all, and we're a community dedicated to helping individuals survive school. We've been helping people, one by one, for years (even in the various dark ages!), and I would say many of us have gotten quite skilled at it. Let's face it, we don't have it in our power (as a forum, anyway) to lobby for change, but we do have it in our power to raise awareness for the current state of affairs and to offer our support to students who happen to find us. That's what we've been doing all these years - it's our niche. This is what organizations like StuVoice and whatnot can't take away from us.

Of course, we need to figure out where we stand, first.

I just believe we're the only one true movement. I feel as if other movements are trying to compromise with the other side TBH. I want us to be totally free of the burden of school. I don't think we should be subject to torment by classmates, teachers, work, administration, etc. I'll admit I'm very radical when it comes to this but I don't wanna settle for less. I want to fight back in the way I feel is necessary, and after recently watching The War on Kids movie it's fueled my ambition to not give up on SS or our movement.

I think you misunderstood – I'm not looking for fame through here. What I meant was that if I somehow became successful in the hobbies that I want to make my careers, then somehow I'd be able to advertise SS and what we are and to possibly have some of my followers come here and learn about us and support us. Then try and become more politically involved with our movement through SS and go on from there.

If we don't have this power to lobby for change, what can we do to change that? I remind myself so much of xcriteria right now because I'm coming up with all these questions, and what frustrates me is that I want to sometimes try and do this all on my own and I don't even have the answers to them.

I think it's pretty clear where we stand, but I want to change that and improve from where we on. I want SS to make its own mark and maybe we can finally be taken seriously. It's pretty surprising that SS has been around since 1999 and that we haven't made the leaps with this movement and possibly even leading this movement like I think we should be.

(08-19-2014 04:16 AM)Hansgrohe Wrote:  Isn't there some student conference in NYC next month? I imagine if we take advantage of that, we could probably increase our popularity. Sadly, we've been held back in a big way by what happened over the summer.

Unless it was paid for there's no way I could go to that. Of course, if we had certain members who had the means and resources to go they could group up, maybe make a FB event about it and note what the SS attendants said and did.

Isn't it that thing Xcriteria mentioned? If so I think I signed up for it(seeing as I live pretty close to NYC).

[GamerGurl]

(08-19-2014 01:08 PM)KFC Nyan Cat Wrote:  I think the Facebook event is a good idea except it should extend to YouTube, Google+, Twitter, Pintrest, and maybe even more taboo sites like DeviantArt and Myspace.

That's not a bad idea. Maybe someone handling the coverage via YouTube, xcriteria automatically gets G+ , and I can do Twitter using the SS account.

I don't see DA as a taboo site so I dunno what you mean there but MYSPACE? People still use MYSPACE?!

(08-19-2014 01:13 PM)brainiac3397 Wrote:  

(08-19-2014 06:00 AM)SirMarty Wrote:  

(08-19-2014 04:16 AM)Hansgrohe Wrote:  Isn't there some student conference in NYC next month? I imagine if we take advantage of that, we could probably increase our popularity. Sadly, we've been held back in a big way by what happened over the summer.

Unless it was paid for there's no way I could go to that. Of course, if we had certain members who had the means and resources to go they could group up, maybe make a FB event about it and note what the SS attendants said and did.

Isn't it that thing Xcriteria mentioned? If so I think I signed up for it(seeing as I live pretty close to NYC).

Yup. I think he was thinking of some ideas to get some of us located in the New England, Mid-Atlantic areas to go by raising some money. This was discussed in the IRC a couple of days ago. Flight is kind of out of the question, and really almost anyone who lives in that general area can take a bus or a train.

A train was my idea as I hate flying anyways and going by bus is just too uncomfortable and its porta potties are YUCK. I'm not sure how much going by bus costs but maybe it's a little more cheaper than going by train.

I think the real issue is where was everyone who was given money to attend going to stay during their time in NYC.

[brainiac3397]

Find an abandoned warehouse in the Bronx. Problem Solved.

[James Comey]

(08-19-2014 06:00 AM)SirMarty Wrote:  I just believe we're the only one true movement. I feel as if other movements are trying to compromise with the other side TBH. I want us to be totally free of the burden of school. I don't think we should be subject to torment by classmates, teachers, work, administration, etc. I'll admit I'm very radical when it comes to this but I don't wanna settle for less. I want to fight back in the way I feel is necessary, and after recently watching The War on Kids movie it's fueled my ambition to not give up on SS or our movement.

Whoa whoa whoa, you're not going to agree with me on this, but these are my thoughts.

I mean, I do understand where you're coming from. I hate school, and I hate what it has put me through and all the shit in between, but that doesn't mean I completely hate public education itself. As a concept public education is a very great and noble idea, and it is. I highly doubt you're anti-education, but ironically xcriteria stresses that sometimes we have to see what the other side thinks. "The other side" also comprises of people who are overburdened by an ineffective system which is getting more rigid via fill-in box tests, Common Core, and other crap. And "the other side" itself includes people who really are on both sides, they love their occupation but they hate many parts of the system itself, and many are willing to try to make a change. There's a lot more than the "us vs them" mentality.

And I bolded that movie because, though it's not terrible or anything, I don't really like it anymore because it's quite cynical. It encourages the crank, conspiracy theorist view of the education system. Yes, the educational system was funded and partly created by industrial corporations, because industrialism was where society was headed toward, and industrialism, despite its negative connotations, has brought us many positive advances that are overlooked. Ironically, the "evil corporations" may sooner or later play a role in transforming the education system later on.

Sorry if I go off-topic or whatever, but I just wanted to express how I felt about that part. I'm just really not into radicalism, crank ideas, conspiracies, etc. I really suggest we distance ourselves as far away as possible from such, and make it very very clear we don't advocate the abolition of public education (hell no, I don't want SS to be associated with far right Christian lunatics or extreme laissez faire economics).

[GamerGurl]

(08-19-2014 03:28 PM)Hansgrohe Wrote:  

(08-19-2014 06:00 AM)SirMarty Wrote:  I just believe we're the only one true movement. I feel as if other movements are trying to compromise with the other side TBH. I want us to be totally free of the burden of school. I don't think we should be subject to torment by classmates, teachers, work, administration, etc. I'll admit I'm very radical when it comes to this but I don't wanna settle for less. I want to fight back in the way I feel is necessary, and after recently watching The War on Kids movie it's fueled my ambition to not give up on SS or our movement.

Whoa whoa whoa, you're not going to agree with me on this, but these are my thoughts.

I mean, I do understand where you're coming from. I hate school, and I hate what it has put me through and all the shit in between, but that doesn't mean I completely hate public education itself. As a concept public education is a very great and noble idea, and it is. I highly doubt you're anti-education, but ironically xcriteria stresses that sometimes we have to see what the other side thinks. "The other side" also comprises of people who are overburdened by an ineffective system which is getting more rigid via fill-in box tests, Common Core, and other crap. And "the other side" itself includes people who really are on both sides, they love their occupation but they hate many parts of the system itself, and many are willing to try to make a change. There's a lot more than the "us vs them" mentality.

And I bolded that movie because, though it's not terrible or anything, I don't really like it anymore because it's quite cynical. It encourages the crank, conspiracy theorist view of the education system. Yes, the educational system was funded and partly created by industrial corporations, because industrialism was where society was headed toward, and industrialism, despite its negative connotations, has brought us many positive advances that are overlooked. Ironically, the "evil corporations" may sooner or later play a role in transforming the education system later on.

Sorry if I go off-topic or whatever, but I just wanted to express how I felt about that part. I'm just really not into radicalism, crank ideas, conspiracies, etc. I really suggest we distance ourselves as far away as possible from such, and make it very very clear we don't advocate the abolition of public education (hell no, I don't want SS to be associated with far right Christian lunatics or extreme laissez faire economics).

You read me before you knew what my thoughts would be reading your response. I do disagree, and I do think it's taking my POV slightly out of context.

I don't think I have the balls to admit public education is very great and noble – the idea sounds good in theory, but it's execution is severely flawed and that movie proved it – but how could I be anti-education? How could anyone be? If I was how could I not know how to learn how to play the video games I play today and the ones I've played in the past? How could I not know how to navigate the internet and use it? Even the SS homepage says we're not anti-education because virtually no human can be; we're just anti-school. We're against the compulsory attendance laws.

I have say that movie isn't any more cynical than what's on SS's homepage, which I'm pretty sure you've already seen the sections such as the 14 Reasons and anti-compulsory schooling, the psychologist who bashes schooling, etc. The movie basically and I believe literally said school is a prison, and the SS homepage says the exact same thing. Some of us even say it most of the time.

What I think separates that movie from us is that the movie focuses more on how ludicrous school has gotten when it comes to handling punishment. It does touch on the aspect of how boring school is, but it focuses more on how most if not some schools are built similarly like a prison. With SS it's vice-versa as we criticize how it's compulsory but we take into account some of the aspects that movie touched on more.

I don't mind if we're going off-topic. Unless it somehow has to do with the objective of SS I don't mind.

To be frank I believe we're kind of already associated with the far right Christian lunatics or extreme laissez-faire economists. That's how we're viewed by most parents and pro-school educators. If we weren't I'd think we'd be making progress in eliminating compulsory schooling and SS probably wouldn't even exist.

About the abolishment of public education, keep in mind many years ago you were either homeschooled or I believe you attended a church to learn and the latter was quite the privilege. But SS is for the abolishment of compulsory public schooling, not public schooling in total. There are kids who happen to like school and those that like going should keep going but those that don't want to go anymore for almost whatever reason(s) should be able to stop.

[Alistoriv]

Okay, let's stop here for a moment.

Quote:I don't think I have the balls to admit public education is very great and noble – the idea sounds good in theory, but it's execution is severely flawed

I'm pretty sure that that's exactly what Hans meant. The idea is great, but it's execution is flawed. I can't speak for everyone on this forum (as you seem to be trying to), but I think that we need some form of school, it just needs to be very different. Sharpie's article on DnE (and on the EFO website) is a good example of what I mean by this (except for the privatisation part).

Quote:Even the SS homepage says we're not anti-education because virtually no human can be; we're just anti-school. We're against the compulsory attendance laws.

Again, referring to SS as a single entity and trying to define it's views. Tsk tsk.
Anti-school does not necessarily mean against all forms of school ever. School is a vehicle for education that is just not implemented correctly. I'd again say to take a look at Sharpie's essay.

Quote:The movie basically and I believe literally said school is a prison, and the SS homepage says the exact same thing. Some of us even say it most of the time.

Again, this doesn't mean that school can't be fixed. If you read a bad book do you throw it away and vow to never read a book ever again or do you look for a better book?

Quote:To be frank I believe we're kind of already associated with the far right Christian lunatics or extreme laissez-faire economists. That's how we're viewed by most parents and pro-school educators. If we weren't I'd think we'd be making progress in eliminating compulsory schooling and SS probably wouldn't even exist.

Anti-school does have connotations of far right/llibertarian social views. That's something that we need to change. The closest thing in America that we've gotten to anti-school movement is a tea party congress member saying that we should abolish school because people educate themselves better and then being ridiculed by the entire country. We need support from both sides if we want to be taken seriously.

Quote:But SS is for the abolishment of compulsory public schooling, not public schooling in total. There are kids who happen to like school and those that like going should keep going but those that don't want to go anymore for almost whatever reason(s) should be able to stop.

I agree with this to a certain extent, but I also believe that there should be a basic level of compulsory schooling that teaches you essential things such as reading, writing, and arithmetic. Everything after that is pretty pointless.


Anyone that's ever said I never contribute can go fuck themselves

[James Comey]

Yeah. I mean, the thing is (and I know I might not make a lot of friends with this opinion), I do support some compulsory education as in K-5. There really is a lot of useful skills that are learned in K-5 levels, such as more advanced literacy, basic mathematics, among other things (it can definitely be done better, but that's another story for another day). I do think that, if people feel they're comfortable enough, that they should be allowed to leave school by 6th or 7th grade (especially given that learning in middle and high school is viewed as mostly irrelevant).

The SS front page is in massive need of an update (it might be worth putting a notice that the views expressed on the main page do not necessarily reflect the views of the current views of the forums, etc, and in no way is universal), and a lot of the content leans towards the "crazy" side of the anti-school spectrum (and oh boy, do I want to distance myself as far away as possible from them).

It's just my 2 cents.

[GamerGurl]

(08-20-2014 04:46 AM)Hansgrohe Wrote:  Yeah. I mean, the thing is (and I know I might not make a lot of friends with this opinion), I do support some compulsory education as in K-5. There really is a lot of useful skills that are learned in K-5 levels, such as more advanced literacy, basic mathematics, among other things (it can definitely be done better, but that's another story for another day). I do think that, if people feel they're comfortable enough, that they should be allowed to leave school by 6th or 7th grade (especially given that learning in middle and high school is viewed as mostly irrelevant).

The SS front page is in massive need of an update (it might be worth putting a notice that the views expressed on the main page do not necessarily reflect the views of the current views of the forums, etc, and in no way is universal), and a lot of the content leans towards the "crazy" side of the anti-school spectrum (and oh boy, do I want to distance myself as far away as possible from them).

It's just my 2 cents.

Personally I do NOT condone compulsory schooling, but in my last thread which you both read I stated that the only option I could think of was having compulsory schooling until 6th or 7th grade and then the kid can leave school if he or she wants to. There would also be withdrawal applications for those who might want to get out earlier.

I believe the front page is fine. When I read it I came in agreeing with every single statement being said against compulsory schooling and when I came out of school I still agree to those views to this day.

I don't mean to sound like an egomaniac but I do kind of feel like I speak for most people on SS. The views shared on the homepage and throughout the forums has been very similar or almost the same since the day I joined. I still don't feel as much as changed but I'm trying to distance myself from the positives of schooling because most of it is ice cream in hell IMO.

I disagree with your assessment on the SS homepage because a lot of the stuff I read is stuff I experienced during my last years in school.

If you do think a lot of the stuff on the homepage is cynical Hans, what do you feel needs to be changed? I think it's a real eye-opener because some people who hate school may feel like there one of the only few that feel that way. I think the homepage reassures them that there not the only ones with those school-hate feelings, and I think it even goes as far as to carving those feelings out into words and expressions – it breathes life into these feelings, just as it did with me.

At first I couldn't really put this hate feeling into words, but with SS I could. I feel like I can now express my undying rage for compulsory schooling, and with this forum I can happily share my views on it without being chastised or ridiculed.

Not only that but I think SS helped me define myself more as a person. I'm now sure of my feelings (just as you are Hans of your feelings of relationships in that thread you posted about it) on many things and it's made me more adamant of them. When I feel what the right is for me I'll stop at nothing to express it.

You guys may disagree or be so-so depending on what I'm saying but I don't mind. I think we're all here for the one same goal.

As far is fixing schooling goes, I'm not going to be focused on that if at all because to me getting rid of most compulsory schooling is my #1 priority.

[James Comey]

(08-20-2014 08:34 AM)SirMarty Wrote:  I believe the front page is fine. When I read it I came in agreeing with every single statement being said against compulsory schooling and when I came out of school I still agree to those views to this day.

Same, actually. But I came at this site when I was extremely cynical. If I weren't I might have been rather freaked out. My point is, (and I'm not going to try to criticize Soul here at all), not only does the content need to be organized better but it needs to sound "less scary".... I don't know how to put it though. Maybe soon we should begin complete re-writes of some of the articles around here, and pump some fresh new content.

(08-20-2014 08:34 AM)SirMarty Wrote:  If you do think a lot of the stuff on the homepage is cynical Hans, what do you feel needs to be changed? I think it's a real eye-opener because some people who hate school may feel like there one of the only few that feel that way. I think the homepage reassures them that there not the only ones with those school-hate feelings, and I think it even goes as far as to carving those feelings out into words and expressions – it breathes life into these feelings, just as it did with me.

For one, we probably should take a step back from the "preacher" type tone. AKA, a similar tone used by conspiracy theorists, religious nuts, atheist nuts, alternative medicine quacks, etc. I mean, when I go on those types of sites I get freaked out as hell, and I imagine many coming on School Survival (especially with the red and black theme) would be pretty scared too (especially given that many of the people who come here probably aren't completely disillusioned with school as much of the forums are).

Second, a lot of it makes school sound like a conspiracy. Again, I'm not going to make a lot of friends with this, but the truth is, school isn't some giant conspiracy to brainwash us all (though that doesn't mean it isn't like a factory, its obsession with conformity, etc, the answer is somewhere in between). I don't think a lot of people are going to think that way.

Third, I feel as if this site almost is like some kind of advertisement for alternative education, etc. First, it's best School Survival stay away from the word "alternative" as far away as possible (given its association with alternative medicine, etc)... we could probably rephrase it somehow. I know Soul definitely isn't trying to advertise these services and is just providing them for reference, but I think we need to somehow tone it down a bit (it's also why I want to create the survival kit).

(08-20-2014 08:34 AM)SirMarty Wrote:  As far is fixing schooling goes, I'm not going to be focused on that if at all because to me getting rid of most compulsory schooling is my #1 priority.

That's a giant goal that most people aren't exactly going to agree with. Most people would probably agree that the education system needs to be fixed, but I think those same people wouldn't agree on that.

Again, just my two cents.

[KFC Nyan Cat]

(08-19-2014 02:14 PM)SirMarty Wrote:  

(08-19-2014 01:08 PM)KFC Nyan Cat Wrote:  I think the Facebook event is a good idea except it should extend to YouTube, Google+, Twitter, Pintrest, and maybe even more taboo sites like DeviantArt and Myspace.

That's not a bad idea. Maybe someone handling the coverage via YouTube, xcriteria automatically gets G+ , and I can do Twitter using the SS account.

I don't see DA as a taboo site so I dunno what you mean there but MYSPACE? People still use MYSPACE?!

I call dA taboo because it isn't "casual" like Pintrest, etc. and not as popular. As for Myspace, it still has it's fans (I was about to join before they introduced an abysmal new layout.)

[James Comey]

These days MySpace is primarily used for artists trying to promote their music, etc. It's not really useful.

[KFC Nyan Cat]

(08-20-2014 09:29 AM)Hansgrohe Wrote:  These days MySpace is primarily used for artists trying to promote their music, etc. It's not really useful.

Yeah....it's gotten to the point where it's 98% music.

[Alistoriv]

>not using the obviously superior and awesome bandcamp








wat

[brainiac3397]

Make me leader of this movement. I support compulsory military education for all citizens(and those seeking citizenship).

Across the board reforms are what are really needed, and diversifying our interests and activities could help bolster membership.

[GamerGurl]

(08-20-2014 09:17 AM)Hansgrohe Wrote:  

(08-20-2014 08:34 AM)SirMarty Wrote:  I believe the front page is fine. When I read it I came in agreeing with every single statement being said against compulsory schooling and when I came out of school I still agree to those views to this day.

Same, actually. But I came at this site when I was extremely cynical. If I weren't I might have been rather freaked out. My point is, (and I'm not going to try to criticize Soul here at all), not only does the content need to be organized better but it needs to sound "less scary".... I don't know how to put it though. Maybe soon we should begin complete re-writes of some of the articles around here, and pump some fresh new content.

(08-20-2014 08:34 AM)SirMarty Wrote:  If you do think a lot of the stuff on the homepage is cynical Hans, what do you feel needs to be changed? I think it's a real eye-opener because some people who hate school may feel like there one of the only few that feel that way. I think the homepage reassures them that there not the only ones with those school-hate feelings, and I think it even goes as far as to carving those feelings out into words and expressions – it breathes life into these feelings, just as it did with me.

For one, we probably should take a step back from the "preacher" type tone. AKA, a similar tone used by conspiracy theorists, religious nuts, atheist nuts, alternative medicine quacks, etc. I mean, when I go on those types of sites I get freaked out as hell, and I imagine many coming on School Survival (especially with the red and black theme) would be pretty scared too (especially given that many of the people who come here probably aren't completely disillusioned with school as much of the forums are).

Second, a lot of it makes school sound like a conspiracy. Again, I'm not going to make a lot of friends with this, but the truth is, school isn't some giant conspiracy to brainwash us all (though that doesn't mean it isn't like a factory, its obsession with conformity, etc, the answer is somewhere in between). I don't think a lot of people are going to think that way.

Third, I feel as if this site almost is like some kind of advertisement for alternative education, etc. First, it's best School Survival stay away from the word "alternative" as far away as possible (given its association with alternative medicine, etc)... we could probably rephrase it somehow. I know Soul definitely isn't trying to advertise these services and is just providing them for reference, but I think we need to somehow tone it down a bit (it's also why I want to create the survival kit).

(08-20-2014 08:34 AM)SirMarty Wrote:  As far is fixing schooling goes, I'm not going to be focused on that if at all because to me getting rid of most compulsory schooling is my #1 priority.

That's a giant goal that most people aren't exactly going to agree with. Most people would probably agree that the education system needs to be fixed, but I think those same people wouldn't agree on that.

Again, just my two cents.

I think the way it's put is pretty good. It may indeed sound scary but in some cases or more I think it should because school can and to some it is a scary place to be. I've heard of some kids sometimes having panic attacks because they have to go to school and they don't want to. They get super nervous probably because they don't like school or its environment and I believe the homepage helps them carve out their feelings and bring them to life.

I think Soul gave SS a new background so it's not black and red anymore. You can however go and change it back to the old theme. That's what I did because personally I hated the whole light blue theme. It felt like SS was going through a teenage fashion crisis.

I don't think the homepage makes us sound like a conspiracy. There's a lot of content online that suggests it does brainwash us or outright calls out schooling for doing so – and it happens to be accurate. Maybe not so fully, but I think school's obsession with conformity and its factory-model setting (or in some cases even a prison-like setting) gives the belief of it trying to brainwash us have at least some truth to it.

Also, I disagree with that assessment. Homeschooling, unschooling, GED, etc., all of that is called alternative for a reason. Even private school because you have to pay a tuition for that. Public schooling is "free"; all it depends on is on the taxpayers. I believe the more information we give out on homeschooling, unschooling, etc. the better because some parents can be informed and possibly swayed that these alternative choices are just as good as public schooling, or in some cases or more, even better.

I'm not sure what else to say Hans. It seems as though you want to actually and literally focus on the name School Survival, but I want to pursue the alternative methods and the (political) movement more. It doesn't sound like you disagree with the latter but you want it toned down and I have to say I pretty much disagree.

[James Comey]

Yeah.... I guess we'll have to agree to disagree for now. You're definitely more radical than I am.

---

(08-20-2014 09:59 AM)brainiac3397 Wrote:  Across the board reforms are what are really needed, and diversifying our interests and activities could help bolster membership.

Pretty much agree with Brainiac here. If SS is intending on becoming something legitimate there needs to be something that gets people really interested, from multiple backgrounds. We can't stick to one group or another (whether it be those that look to be completely random, depressed teenagers, or teachers).

[James Comey]

I should reply to SirMarty. I just feel the need to.

Quote:I think the way it's put is pretty good. It may indeed sound scary but in some cases or more I think it should because school can and to some it is a scary place to be. I've heard of some kids sometimes having panic attacks because they have to go to school and they don't want to. They get super nervous probably because they don't like school or its environment and I believe the homepage helps them carve out their feelings and bring them to life.

Look, SirMarty, I understand that for many people, a high school is scary as fuck to be in. I understand that you're one of those people who loathes school, but for many, the hatred and fear of school often isn't as high. We can't cater more to the "scared of school shitless" crowd. Most teens hate school but usually because "it's boring" or "it's pointless". Not because of anxiety attacks, etc (at least not on the surface). There's a reason we need to tone it down.

Quote:I think Soul gave SS a new background so it's not black and red anymore. You can however go and change it back to the old theme. That's what I did because personally I hated the whole light blue theme. It felt like SS was going through a teenage fashion crisis.

SirMarty, I mean not to come off as abrasive or attempting to insult you, but are you aware of why a lot of the community (including me, DoA, and xcriteria) were so vocal in changing the red and black scheme?

Let's be honest, for most people (even teens), the content on this site would come off as more or less extremist. The red and black only adds more to the whole "anarchist" theme. It doesn't help about the stereotypes of teenagers and their obsession with anarchy, communism, Nazism, and the like.

I know School Survival is more or less apolitical, but the simple fact is that perception is reality. Trying to promote anti-schooling ideas with an anarchist theme to it won't do. Branding is very important, that's a no-brainer.

Quote:I don't think the homepage makes us sound like a conspiracy. There's a lot of content online that suggests it does brainwash us or outright calls out schooling for doing so – and it happens to be accurate. Maybe not so fully, but I think school's obsession with conformity and its factory-model setting (or in some cases even a prison-like setting) gives the belief of it trying to brainwash us have at least some truth to it.

You're right. Conformity is part of school (and it's not really subtle, either). But I think "brainwash" is a very strong term, and I think what "brainwashing" might be rather subjective here, as well. Am I being brainwashed so that my political beliefs are a certain way? Am I being brainwashed to follow what my government says? I don't know. I'd say it's best to leave it here as a middle ground.

Also, the "preacher" type of tone that conspiracy theorists use is something we definitely want to avoid. I don't suggest avoiding the subject (we should definitely cover it), but just give cold, hard, facts. Not "THE GOVERNMENT WANTS YOU TO OBEY EVERYTHING THEY SAY!" type of stuff.

Quote:Also, I disagree with that assessment. Homeschooling, unschooling, GED, etc., all of that is called alternative for a reason. Even private school because you have to pay a tuition for that. Public schooling is "free"; all it depends on is on the taxpayers. I believe the more information we give out on homeschooling, unschooling, etc. the better because some parents can be informed and possibly swayed that these alternative choices are just as good as public schooling, or in some cases or more, even better.

I don't know how I feel about this.... though definitely listing other options isn't a bad idea. It's something worth mentioning. I don't want to sound as if we're completely bashing the public education system. SirMarty, I do not ask for your opinion on it, but rather the general public. It's seen as a positive thing by most people, and if we're just seemingly bashing it, we're not going to win a lot of people....

[xcriteria]

Ok, I finally caught up on this thread. Lots to think about!

I'm thinking about the best way to break down the root topics here, give my input, and set the stage for further discussion. I'm not sure how to do that, but we'll see. One of the patterns in the history of these forums has been for threads about changing things ending up dead, rather than ending in next steps.

One topic is that of compulsory education. In the US, the way I look at it, school-as-usual is actually optional, thanks to homeschooling exemptions, but it's up to the parents to pursue or not pursue that option.

So, I think a major focus of change needs to be discussions within families, talking to parents, helping them to see why a different approach is better for their kids, and all that. That's really a completely different question than changing the system as a whole, or even pursuing change in a specific school or district.

Millions of students actually do homeschool in some form, and the numbers have been growing. More and more parents are questioning things, and sharing their stories, and that opens the door for conversations that would have been harder in the past.

Hidden stuff:

Another angle is the increasing number of school-alternatives that are set up like "unschool cooperatives" or "learning centers" of various kinds. These provide a space to go, and staff/teachers/mentors, but they operate completely differently than school-as-usual. If several or more families in one area want to get together and set something like this up, it could provide options for something with some of the positive elements of going to a place to learn and interact, even under homeschooling exemptions.

North Star Self-Directed Learning is one widely-praised example. Open Road Teens is another. And there are a number of others -- and people wanting to start school-alternative learning spaces -- but very few people even know about this option.

Another angle, for those stuck in school-as-usual, is to see about changes within the school. This has typically seemed impossible, but more and more schools and teachers are opening up to the realities of life in the 21st century, and the need for their roles to change.

Student Voice and Connected Learning Alliance are on the forefront of getting those conversations going, and they have big-name partners and I think they're valuable partners in helping people understand this is about more than some whiny kids going through a phase in their life.

As for School Survival, and the homepage and site content, I think it needs to be further updated... really totally revamped. But, I think it's crucial that it still resonate with unhappy students, and show the horrors of school-as-usual for school-incompatible students, while showing that we do have allies, that things are changing in many ways, and that there are so many ways to take education into your own hands, regardless of the roadblocks school might provide.

Ultimately, even when people make it out of school, through whatever means, there's still the question of how to actually get a life-relevant education, and what that consists of... and the question of finding one's way in life. In many ways, that's the bigger part of "school survival" than surviving or escaping school itself.

So many people have been burned out on toxic forms of "education," that actual interest-driven, life-relevant, challenge-based learning and producing is a totally foreign concept. Likewise with even doing work. And yet all those things are keys to a fulfilling life, not to mention survival as an independent person.

One of the reasons I'm so passionate about transforming education is my own experience of trying to make it in the world beyond school at various points. School, parents, even the media didn't prepare me for that. And that question of how to actually go about learning, and figuring out life, is one of the core things I think we need to focus on to change things. After all, parents and governments alike are also interested in people who can navigate their life in a global economy, where lives don't tend to play out in such predictable ways in pre-defined jobs.

And, for many of us who hate school, traditional career paths aren't desirable in the first place. So, there's the question of what to do instead, and how to make it work. If we can help people with those things, it'll add credibility to the "you don't need school-as-usual" argument.

Thoughts on all that?

[Missile]

I say, for our movement to go anywhere, we need to AT LEAST get rid of the teachers unions and stuff like no child left behind, race to the top, and all that other crap.

[James Comey]

I'm not sure about Teachers Unions. Those are a beast in themselves.

NCLB though is universally hated, though.

[Missile]

What about RTTT?

[brainiac3397]

RT3?

[Gwedin]

R2D2?

[KFC Nyan Cat]

SSF: Derailing threads since 2006.