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The School Survival Movement: Abolish Compulsory Schooling
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GamerGurl Away
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The School Survival Movement: Abolish Compulsory Schooling

Good morning, everyone.

Although I'm extremely freakin' tired, I have a very important message to relay to you all. After this, then I shall head off to bed.

To be short and to the point – not only will I be explaining to you all in this post what School Survival is all about, and why you won't find it anywhere else – but I will also be using this thread as a sort of School Talk blog in order to document the many events that occur with this new jump-start to the "anti-school" movement. Posts will be titled by both DoA and I when we have a new announcement. I figured keeping every new piece of information regarding this movement would be more helpful and keep the content organized.

To start off, as you all know, School Survival prides itself in being an "anti-school" website. Now I know that may sound quite cynical, but just think back and see if you can count all of the crappy school days you had to endure. Can you count 'em all?

Can you count the number of times you had to deal with conceited and toxic peers; antagonistic staff and administration; being handed pointless worksheets, homework and other busywork; being graded for how "intelligent" you were; parents nagging you to do your homework or wake up early to go to school; and deal with classes that taught you nothing related on what you planned on doing in the future, and having no interest in them at all?

Anti-school, in basic terms, means "I hate school." We're not really talking about other types of schools and learner-centric institutions, but public schools, that have a compulsory attendance law (sometimes called compulsory schooling, or even compulsory education) that is attached to them by the state they reside in that require you to go to school if you cannot be homeschooled, unschooled, or attend a more learner-centric approach to schooling.

More specifically, anti-school means we are against the conventional method of schooling (public schooling) due to the fact that it gives education and learning a very bad reputation. It focuses more on rote memorization and what you should learn and how you learn it, instead of actually focusing on what you might want to learn or do in general and how you'd want to go about it.

We are not anti-learning, and we are certainly not anti-education. In fact, those of us who want to abolish compulsory schooling are PRO-LEARNING. Pro-learning, a term I coined to rival the pro-school position, is synonymous with anti-school, with the exception that it focuses more positively on individualized learning, education, and most importantly, LIVING.

Please remember that everyone here who's in support of anti-schooling is actually pro-learning. That's what we're all about. Smile

Additionally, we're also about educating everyone else why school negatively impacts many people. These are the "unofficial" universal reasons in the community and movement on why school sucks and why it negatively impacts most of those who attend.

Now some if not all of these are NOT absolute, but in general we're for the fact that if school is a major part of your life, continue attending. School does have major problems, and let those who are interested in going to school deal with those problems. For those who feel that school is mainly just a waste of a time, they should feel free to explore other educational/learning options or just plainly take control of their own life instead of wasting their time in an institution that will do almost absolutely nothing for them in the future.

And for some, education will stop at an earlier age than others. It just depends what the person's interests are and what they want to do. The school system shouldn't have control over what you do, what you're "educated" on, how you're "educated" on it, and when you finish.

Secondly, where else can you find a community like us? You may be able to find a few somewhat similar groups on FB and what-not, but before SS whenever you searched something in regards to "I hate school," NOTHING but a dead website or two saying, "MY SKOOL SUX!"

We're really the only established anti-school/pro-learner community on the web, and for over a decade we've been attracting people who disliked school of all ages to come here and feel like they won't be looked down upon for their disdain for "receiving an education," as the conformist public so eloquently puts it. Rolleyes

Another thing is that when some of us criticize school, pro-schoolers will jump at the chance and use a straw man argument making claims that we hate education and that don't appreciate it.

Again, we don't hate education. We are only against being forced to attend school against our will, "learning" things we really have no interest in and that won't help our futures, and we're against the punishments brought by the judicial system if we decide to stop attending and our parents/guardians refuse to discuss options we see much better from our POV; such as homeschooling. We may be able to be petitioned to go to court and face a judge and we don't go for a long period of time, and the worst-case scenario is that we could be sent to a juvenile detention center. Yes, a place where many actual juvenile delinquents go – minors who've committed assaults, robberies, even murder, and other related actual crimes – just for not going to school, and not only are we placed in the same category as them, we will have this on our record for the rest of our lives.

How can we appreciate that at all if we decide not to go? Isn't America also supposed to be the so-called land of the FREE? If it's actually the land of the free, then why are we forced to go to school against our will?

What I find ironic about this is that I remember my old school's social worker who would come to my apartment sometimes when I didn't show up for school, and one day she told me something along the lines of that during the day I was born, I then had a obligation to the state to attend school. It's like she indirectly referenced that I actually had to be obedient, and that I had no say in that whatsoever.

To add insult to injury, we have the 13th amendment to the Constitution, which abolishes SLAVERY and INDENTURED SERVITUDE. And yet, the government is forcing us against our will to attend school, and we have to do so without pay, and even many adults call this a kid's "job." Well if it was a job we should get paid to be going, then.

Here at School Survival, namely the Abolish Compulsory Schooling movement, you will meet many like-minded individuals who wish to improve education, and aims that everyone receive the educational self-determination and independence they so constitutionally and inalienably deserve. Here we respect education and consider it a privilege. Public schooling is a form of so-called education we look down upon generally since we're indoctrinated instead, it is not a privilege if we face severe legal consequences for not attending.

That concludes everything I had to say in regards to what School Survival, more specifically what ACS, is, and why you won't find it anywhere else. I don't think I could be anymore articulate than that, but if DoA has some more to add-on you are free to do so.

I have recently started a division of School Survival that will be sponsored by the community called Abolish of Compulsory Schooling. The name speaks for itself, but in general our main goal is to abolish compulsory school attendance laws and eliminate all legal punishments for not attending school. I have created it a FB page, FB group, Twitter and YouTube account, and those shall be posted once they're ready to be advertised.

I hope everyone here at School Survival decides to support DoA and I in this endeavor to jump-start the anti-schooling/pro-learning movement, as we've discussed that we needed to start something legitimate in order to be taken seriously and actually get somewhere in the movement. We won't amount to much if all we do is hold some small talk on school on the forums, but gladly that is changing as well as more people are registering.

Thank you for reading, and remember that not only should you be in charge in how you receive an education and how you learn, but how you live your life. You can give the government permission on the former, but they should have no jurisdiction whatsoever over the latter.

Cool

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(This post was last modified: 11-05-2015 10:20 AM by GamerGurl.)
09-30-2014 09:58 PM
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The School Survival Movement: Abolish Compulsory Education

I like this. I just don't think you should say Abolish Compulsory Education in the title... It might confuse people. Rather say Abolish Compulsory Schooling.

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The School Survival Movement: Abolish Compulsory Education

Thank you, Marty.

I don't have much to say right now - I'm currently dealing with the fallout of my own miseducation right now, and for the moment I don't have much time to share my thoughts. I just want you all to know that I fully endorse this movement and want to see compulsory schooling come to an end, so that no one will have to suffer what I have.

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10-01-2014 01:47 AM
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GamerGurl Away
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RE: The School Survival Movement: Abolish Compulsory Schooling

(09-30-2014 10:11 PM)SoulRiser Wrote:  I like this. I just don't think you should say Abolish Compulsory Education in the title... It might confuse people. Rather say Abolish Compulsory Schooling.
Yeah, I just made this while I was extremely exhausted and I kept thinking that school doesn't equal education so I messed that up. Razz

Plus, the actual movement is called Abolish Compulsory Schooling so the fix has been made. Thanks!

One other thing. May I sticky this?

(10-01-2014 01:47 AM)DoA Wrote:  Thank you, Marty.

I don't have much to say right now - I'm currently dealing with the fallout of my own miseducation right now, and for the moment I don't have much time to share my thoughts. I just want you all to know that I fully endorse this movement and want to see compulsory schooling come to an end, so that no one will have to suffer what I have.
No problem. I'm really sorry to hear that but if you're currently experiencing your fallout then we'll do so together. I've been stuck in it for the past over 1½ now but I'm trying to listen to some of xcriteria's suggestions and move on. Sadhug

I just woke up about an hour ago, and I'll continue working on this so I can officially publish the social media pages for you guys to share with any potential allies.

Seven crappy hours of our lives.
(This post was last modified: 10-01-2014 01:56 PM by GamerGurl.)
10-01-2014 10:57 AM
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The School Survival Movement: Abolish Compulsory Schooling

Compulsory schooling is a complete failure and needs to be abolished. In America, the real number one reason compulsory schooling is unlikely to die in our lifetimes is because tens of millions of people have come to expect and demand free daycare from the government. American public schools aren't institutions of education; they're gigantic babysitting factories. No child should be forced to go to school and the public should not be forced to fund daycare factories disguised as schools. In my opinion, not only should compulsory schooling be abolished but public school in general also needs to be abolished.

I would also like to add, and it surprises me this has been controversial even here, that while students should not be forced to go to school, it is also true, that while schools do exist, educators, and I do use that word loosely, should also have the choice not to have to babysit chronically hostile and disruptive students who take a bad situation and make it much worse for everyone involved. If you are really anti-school you should be pro suspension and expulsion. Everyday out of public school is better for everyone except for the parent who depends on free daycare.

If you want to be a different fish, you've got to jump out of the school.


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10-01-2014 02:34 PM
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The School Survival Movement: Abolish Compulsory Schooling

Yup, it needs to be easier to get rid of horrible "students" and also horrible teachers while we're at it.

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10-02-2014 11:16 PM
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RE: The School Survival Movement: Abolish Compulsory Schooling

(10-01-2014 02:34 PM)TheCancer Wrote:  Compulsory schooling is a complete failure and needs to be abolished. In America, the real number one reason compulsory schooling is unlikely to die in our lifetimes is because tens of millions of people have come to expect and demand free daycare from the government. American public schools aren't institutions of education; they're gigantic babysitting factories. No child should be forced to go to school and the public should not be forced to fund daycare factories disguised as schools. In my opinion, not only should compulsory schooling be abolished but public school in general also needs to be abolished.

I would also like to add, and it surprises me this has been controversial even here, that while students should not be forced to go to school, it is also true, that while schools do exist, educators, and I do use that word loosely, should also have the choice not to have to babysit chronically hostile and disruptive students who take a bad situation and make it much worse for everyone involved. If you are really anti-school you should be pro suspension and expulsion. Everyday out of public school is better for everyone except for the parent who depends on free daycare.
I'm surprised you think that! And you're a teacher yourself, correct? o.O

I do at least think that compulsory schooling should be abolished, but the public system in totality? I just want to avoid being viewed as those right-wing Christan extremists. There is some proof that the public school system has helped others, and I personally know of some students who like school—and think others need to go as well, sadly—so I don't think we may need to totally abolish the system, but it certainly is in need of major reforms.

I do very much so agree on that assessment of schools being huge daycare centers, too. I think this requires a different discussion, but I do mainly think this has happened because of most parents holding 9 to 5 jobs, and during that time they want their kids being somewhere either than home (possibly instead of having "fun"). This is possibly something these parents experienced themselves when they were kids. Anyone else care to add-on to here?

Personally I feel indifferent about public schools being abolished—I wouldn't mind whether or not it was abolished—but I certainly do think they're in need of major reforms.

As for your last point, the only thing I would think is controversial on SS is this. There's some who want to be more "legitimate" and try to reach out to groups like Student Voice, which don't exactly focus on compulsory schooling, rather, issues students have with school outside of compulsory schooling. And then there's others who'd rather focus on SS and focus towards an official movement to end compulsory schooling itself.

I wouldn't mind trying to work alongside groups like Student Voice if they'd be able to endorse our movement, though. In the end all that matters is that we have people and communities who want to stand alongside SS and end compulsory schooling. That is all I, and many other School Survivalists, ask for. Smile

Lastly, I wouldn't be total pro-suspension. IDK how it works like where you live, but where I live there also exists IN-school suspension, so maybe pro-out-of-school-suspension. Wink

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10-05-2014 08:02 AM
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RE: The School Survival Movement: Abolish Compulsory Schooling

Holy. Shit. I'm sorry, but I leave the site for about a month, and this happens?

I'm going to make some arguments about why School Survival should not focus on the immediate abolishment of compulsory factory model education.

One thing we need to ask ourselves is this: if we're going to overthrow the system, what are we going to replace it with, anyway? See, this is the question that has alluded most rebels for a long time. Yeah, this question has been successfully answered (the Declaration of Independence and later the Articles of Confederation, and later the Constitution, after the American Revolution, for example), but more often than not it hasn't (look at Libya, Egypt, post-Revolutionary France, etc for examples on what happens when you overthrow the system and you don't know what to replace it with). Imagine if we succeed in abolishing compulsory education. The question would be: what next?

Second, the abolishment of compulsory education is an incredibly unpopular viewpoint. Whether among adults, teachers, or students, it's not a popular viewpoint. Actually, I did a survey recently at my high school for government class. I asked many students whether they'd still go to high school if it weren't mandatory. Guess what? Most answered they'd still go! (I'll compile the data later and post) Why go for a radical goal immediately? Instead of appeasing to a small number, why not appeal to a much more universal audience?

Third, what I think SirMarty, DoA, and Soul don't see here, as passionate as their arguments are, they don't think of other people and their experience of school. They think that, because they suffered so much, their viewpoint is universal. No, it simply isn't. SirMarty, I mean not to insult, but please, take a step back, and stop thinking your the poster-boy for School Survival or something like that. In reality, the School Survivor peasantry is a lot larger and has far more diverse viewpoints that the ones you describe (these are the same arguments we had back about the whole "no advice or criticism" bullshit back in July that we went batshit insane about). I hate school, but that doesn't mean I never had positive experiences in school, and there are some parts of school that I'm glad to have gone through. I'm not saying to look at school in a different light, but I do encourage you to listen to the different viewpoints that will be presented.

Fourth, we need to focus on practical goals. Campaigning for the abolishment of compulsory education is a goal that is way far off (the most we could get to ever in my opinion would be possible exemptions for high school). Practical goals include more independent student unions as well as student clubs, actually effective student political bodies, more practical use of technology in school, more individualism in education (didn't Vermont make a law that made plans similar to IEPs mandatory for all students, regardless of anything? We could push for that), as well as a reduction in all the goddamn testing. Progress is slow and steady. Realize that.

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10-07-2014 02:35 PM
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RE: The School Survival Movement: Abolish Compulsory Schooling

Hans, would you like to be the propaganda minister for my planned college hybrid? Smile

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The School Survival Movement: Abolish Compulsory Schooling

I don't remember making an argument. I'm all for just making everything optional (even though it technically already is, but only with supportive parents)... removing it entirely as an option immediately is likely to do more harm than good (probably). Because mass panic and all that.

Seriously, I'm pretty sure I've never said it should be immediately abolished entirely. Please feel free to link me to evidence of me saying that if you think I did.

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RE: The School Survival Movement: Abolish Compulsory Schooling

It doesn't need to be replaced with anything because it doesn't fill a relevant void.


IEP's for all students? What good is that? Nobody even pays a bit of attention to the IEP's for disabled students that already exist.

Reduced testing is fine. When you get your common core test write refused on it and put your head down. Simple as that.

If you want to be a different fish, you've got to jump out of the school.


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10-08-2014 08:24 AM
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RE: The School Survival Movement: Abolish Compulsory Schooling

What a great way to make your situation worse.
10-08-2014 08:41 AM
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RE: The School Survival Movement: Abolish Compulsory Schooling

What? Writing "refused"?

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10-08-2014 09:09 AM
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RE: The School Survival Movement: Abolish Compulsory Schooling

Yes.. are you talking about graded tests or those shit state tests that you're not graded on but still expected to do well on? If the latter then nevermind, i misread.
10-08-2014 09:43 AM
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RE: The School Survival Movement: Abolish Compulsory Schooling

(10-08-2014 08:24 AM)TheCancer Wrote:  It doesn't need to be replaced with anything because it doesn't fill a relevant void.

Quoted for truth. It is not the responsibility of any state to "educate" the masses.

(10-07-2014 02:35 PM)Hansgrohe Wrote:  One thing we need to ask ourselves is this: if we're going to overthrow the system, what are we going to replace it with, anyway? See, this is the question that has alluded most rebels for a long time. Yeah, this question has been successfully answered (the Declaration of Independence and later the Articles of Confederation, and later the Constitution, after the American Revolution, for example), but more often than not it hasn't (look at Libya, Egypt, post-Revolutionary France, etc for examples on what happens when you overthrow the system and you don't know what to replace it with). Imagine if we succeed in abolishing compulsory education. The question would be: what next?
You are equating the removal of an extraneous extension of a federal bureaucracy with the disestablishment of a dictatorial regime or the creation of a new country; needless to say, that is a massive exaggeration. The replacement of this antiquated, unsustainable system is wholly unnecessary - providing the public with a means of advancing the pursuit of knowledge without actually holding them accountable for their own intelligence should be a secondary concern, if it is to be a concern at all.

(10-07-2014 02:35 PM)Hansgrohe Wrote:  Second, the abolishment of compulsory education is an incredibly unpopular viewpoint. Whether among adults, teachers, or students, it's not a popular viewpoint. Actually, I did a survey recently at my high school for government class. I asked many students whether they'd still go to high school if it weren't mandatory. Guess what? Most answered they'd still go! (I'll compile the data later and post) Why go for a radical goal immediately? Instead of appeasing to a small number, why not appeal to a much more universal audience?
Let's apply this fallacious concept of popularity to a similar argument: slavery, in its more overt form, approximately 200 years ago.

The abolition of slavery was once an incredibly unpopular viewpoint, even among slaves and freedmen themselves. A quote commonly attributed to Harriet Tubman, after all, is this: "I freed thousands of slaves. I could have freed thousands more, if they had known they were slaves." It looked as though this were just another business practice, just some people's lot in life.

This changed radically in mere decades, even before the advent of faster forms of communication and more public forms of political discourse. Fast forward to the modern day, and you'll be hard-pressed to find a person who doesn't assert the morality of this abolition.

Is the school situation like this? No - in fact, it is actually a lot simpler. Opening people's minds to the inefficiency and incompetence of their government in regards to education won't require a civil war, and it should take a far shorter amount of time to accomplish. The answer to this moral issue is significantly clearer (particularly with the promise that involuntary servitude is impermissible in a modern society). There are far more radical things to campaign for than the return of a few basic human rights to their original owners.

(10-07-2014 02:35 PM)Hansgrohe Wrote:  Third, what I think SirMarty, DoA, and Soul don't see here, as passionate as their arguments are, they don't think of other people and their experience of school. They think that, because they suffered so much, their viewpoint is universal. No, it simply isn't.
This is a far greater and more despicable accusation than you think it is: First of all, you are addressing our campaign to ease the suffering of others by insisting that we don't care about others. Second of all, you make the case that our suffering is not universal because it isn't shared by everyone else; the implication here is that this suffering, because it is not universal, is somehow our fault. Third, and finally, you are downplaying the fact that there is a large group of people suffering for no good reason - people are languishing, yet you advocate a status quo that is (seemingly) slightly more convenient for everyone who isn't.

I understand why you may think this - you've said yourself that you don't see yourself as a cognitive refugee, and cannot fully understand those who are. While you may be largely ignorant to this plight, you do not, at least, intend to blame the victims. To say this to us anyway, however, is a great insult indeed.

(10-07-2014 02:35 PM)Hansgrohe Wrote:  Fourth, we need to focus on practical goals. Campaigning for the abolishment of compulsory education is a goal that is way far off (the most we could get to ever in my opinion would be possible exemptions for high school). Practical goals include more independent student unions as well as student clubs, actually effective student political bodies, more practical use of technology in school, more individualism in education (didn't Vermont make a law that made plans similar to IEPs mandatory for all students, regardless of anything? We could push for that), as well as a reduction in all the goddamn testing. Progress is slow and steady. Realize that.
You're confusing "practical" with "ineffectual". I hate to say it, but painting the walls and moving the basic "furniture" of a real-life jail cell (or at least requesting such accommodations from prison guards) would be a greater accomplishment than any of the things you've described, and it isn't even that practical to do so.

If you really think that all important forms of progress come slowly, you're probably a future United States Senator. This is only true of most government "solutions" - this is a case where the initiative must be taken by the people. Realize that.

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10-08-2014 10:52 AM
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The School Survival Movement: Abolish Compulsory Schooling

Once again I'm on the unpopular side of the argument.
What you have to understand here is that this is a very different situation from slavery. The way society is set up, you need to have at least a highschool education and typically a college education to get most jobs. Slaves didn't need to go through slavery to get most jobs. And don't misinterpret this as me saying that you can't succeed without an education and scream "pro-school doctrine!!!!1!11!" as you always do. The fact of the matter is, society doesn't change overnight and abolishing slavery was a major reason that the Civil War started, no?

And to SirMarty, stop speaking for the entirety of School Survival. We are not some single entity that aligns it's beliefs to yours. As Hansgrohe said, you need to stop thinking you're the poster-boy for SS.

We need to focus on fixing the educational system to some degree instead of something as radical as getting rid of it completely. We are trying to gain ground for our cause, not be written off as nutjobs.

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10-08-2014 11:32 AM
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RE: The School Survival Movement: Abolish Compulsory Schooling

This will probably be my last semester of college. I've decided that come 2015 I'm going to go full out on my plans for the nonprofit to get together a college or at least try to influence change in the way the US education works.

It combines that engineering trait to work on problems to find solutions and my political trait to have some sort of impact on society. Unlike my other wild plans, I actually managed to create a rough draft businesses plan(surprising since my other ideas never led to something concrete)

If I'm wasting my life, I might as well waste it with a challenge under my own rules (and state/federal law). I've grown tired of "you can't do this because policy..." or "We can't recommend that because..." or "I suggest this path would be better..."

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(06-14-2013 08:02 AM)Potato Wrote:  watch the fuq out, we've got an "intellectual" over here.

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10-08-2014 01:17 PM
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The School Survival Movement: Abolish Compulsory Schooling

This habit of arguing and doing nothing instead of agreeing on one thing at a time and actually getting something done is why SS isn't going to go anywhere.



One thing at a time, if you want radical change then whatever but you're not going to get that tomorrow, next week, next year, or possibly even in the next decade. Slow the fuck down.
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10-08-2014 01:34 PM
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RE: The School Survival Movement: Abolish Compulsory Schooling

I need to think of a name...

Was thinking edutopia but George Lucas kind of got a head start there. The Academy? Sounds generic.

I'm thinking something space/astronomy derived(which in turn is derived from myths and stuff).

Pegasus sounds nice. I'll have to run that through the state database to check if its taken(in the field of education and/technology). Then I can so slowly start the process of preparing the forms.

I also intend to prepare a survey for students and professors to gather data on the potential market and test run some ideas.

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(06-14-2013 08:02 AM)Potato Wrote:  watch the fuq out, we've got an "intellectual" over here.

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10-08-2014 01:48 PM
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RE: The School Survival Movement: Abolish Compulsory Schooling

(10-08-2014 08:24 AM)TheCancer Wrote:  It doesn't need to be replaced with anything because it doesn't fill a relevant void.

Yeah, it does. It's the pathway for future generations. Self-education generally isn't seen as sufficient enough by most people anyway, and really, it isn't. I used to pimp it out quite a bit but really you do need to be taught some things. Again, the question is, how do you change it?

(10-08-2014 10:52 AM)DoA Wrote:  You are equating the removal of an extraneous extension of a federal bureaucracy with the disestablishment of a dictatorial regime or the creation of a new country; needless to say, that is a massive exaggeration. The replacement of this antiquated, unsustainable system is wholly unnecessary - providing the public with a means of advancing the pursuit of knowledge without actually holding them accountable for their own intelligence should be a secondary concern, if it is to be a concern at all.

What the hell? The removal of the public education system would indeed be very, very massive. It would have very, very large repercussions. By abolishing it, you're essentially turning the way education is delivered in the country to the wild wild west. Many would lose jobs, many more would be very confused and many, and believe me, many would be upset. People won't go "oh look, no more public school, I guess I'll just learn all by myself". There would be a massive fallout.

(10-08-2014 10:52 AM)DoA Wrote:  Let's apply this fallacious concept of popularity to a similar argument: slavery, in its more overt form, approximately 200 years ago.

The abolition of slavery was once an incredibly unpopular viewpoint (this is debatable, but I won't go here), even among slaves and freedmen themselves. A quote commonly attributed to Harriet Tubman, after all, is this: "I freed thousands of slaves. I could have freed thousands more, if they had known they were slaves." It looked as though this were just another business practice, just some people's lot in life.

This changed radically in mere decades, even before the advent of faster forms of communication and more public forms of political discourse. Fast forward to the modern day, and you'll be hard-pressed to find a person who doesn't assert the morality of this abolition.

Is the school situation like this? No - in fact, it is actually a lot simpler. Opening people's minds to the inefficiency and incompetence of their government in regards to education won't require a civil war, and it should take a far shorter amount of time to accomplish. The answer to this moral issue is significantly clearer (particularly with the promise that involuntary servitude is impermissible in a modern society). There are far more radical things to campaign for than the return of a few basic human rights to their original owners.
I'm going to use Alistoriv's argument here in that equating the system of motherfucking American slavery to compulsory education is rather extreme.

One major problem with this comparison is that slavery mostly has no benefit for the slave. Compulsory education, even as shitty as it is, has at least some benefit for most people (lest you be a SirMarty, etc). Picking cotton in the brutal hot sun and writing an essay inside a classroom with 29 other kids are 2 completely different worlds. Second, slavery operated on a system of property. As far as I know, no such system exists in the current education system.

You also miss the point about the arguments against slavery at the time, anyway. Generally, it was viewed morally wrong to force someone to do hard labor against their own will for much of their lifetime. As far as I know, compulsory schooling only lasts 12-13 years, and you're not out in the sun picking cotton. There were also religious aspects in the arguments as well.

(10-07-2014 02:35 PM)Hansgrohe Wrote:  This is a far greater and more despicable accusation than you think it is: First of all, you are addressing our campaign to ease the suffering of others by insisting that we don't care about others. Second of all, you make the case that our suffering is not universal because it isn't shared by everyone else; the implication here is that this suffering, because it is not universal, is somehow our fault. Third, and finally, you are downplaying the fact that there is a large group of people suffering for no good reason - people are languishing, yet you advocate a status quo that is (seemingly) slightly more convenient for everyone who isn't.

O_O.

I never said that you don't care about others. What I said was that you should think and look at the issue from a much more worldwide perspective. From that perspective, abolishing compulsory education is not viable.

How did I imply that your suffering is somehow your fault? You literally pulled this out of nowhere.

Third, again, I never was advocating for the status quo. You seem to completely miss the point that I myself am for reforming the education system. You don't remember when I once argued that a partial privatization could help stem the flow of students? You don't seem to remember I love more individualism in education. Your argument makes it seems I'm somehow wanting to keep things the same.

And I'm not ignorant to the plight of people, either. Do you know how many people I want to help? Do you know how many people I've seen just develop apathetic attitudes towards life? Do you know that I'm sick of seeing teen suicides because they were called "fag", "autistic", etc? Again, you're making it seem I am. No, I was simply arguing that different people perceive the system differently, and therefore their opinion matters as much as your's or SirMarty's. I never said that somehow, you're to blame. Never.

(10-08-2014 10:52 AM)DoA Wrote:  You're confusing "practical" with "ineffectual". I hate to say it, but painting the walls and moving the basic "furniture" of a real-life jail cell (or at least requesting such accommodations from prison guards) would be a greater accomplishment than any of the things you've described, and it isn't even that practical to do so.

If you really think that all important forms of progress come slowly, you're probably a future United States Senator. This is only true of most government "solutions" - this is a case where the initiative must be taken by the people. Realize that.

??????????

No, sir, progress is slow. Progress can be fast, but progress is often slow. Gay marriage. Medicine. Internet. You seem to be extremely blind. Your argument makes it seem as if you are extremely blind to social norms and perceptions towards education, which would more than certainly stop your campaign dead on its tracks. Try to somehow legalize gay marriage in the 60s, 70s, or 80s. That's essentially equivalent to abolishing compulsory education right now.

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10-08-2014 01:53 PM
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Post: #21
RE: The School Survival Movement: Abolish Compulsory Schooling

Id just like to point out that slaves were only freed due to politics. Lincoln would have rather preferred they had just left the US and gone back to Africa. Supporting the abolishment of slavery helped keep Europe out of the conflict, got the general public to feel warm and fuzzy fighting against the inhumane rednecks, kept slaves in the south from ever thinking of aiding the Confederates(why should they now if the North says they are free) and to get those abolishists to stfu.

The american education system is excessively traditional. It has to catch up with the times and realize that HS should cover the necessary basics so kids don't get into college and end up taking the basics there. People need to realize school isn't daycare. We need to realize the college board is a bunch of BS profitting millions for its executives.

We need more Carnegie's, who understand education is important and support it without expecting returns. Executives who strive for the purpose and prove it by not keeping their entire million dollar salary when they can easily live comfortably with less. The only standardization should be student rights(to privacy,education and liberty).

Of course this takes time because the entire American society has built up around the idea of college for cash, k-12 to be considered human and that money is everything regardless of belief,idea

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(06-14-2013 08:02 AM)Potato Wrote:  watch the fuq out, we've got an "intellectual" over here.

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10-08-2014 02:09 PM
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The School Survival Movement: Abolish Compulsory Schooling

Just logged in after a day or 2 being with the birds and this exploded.

First of all, why was this de-stickied? I'm pretty sure SoulRiser stickied this so I'm going to make it a sticky again. This will document SS's journey for the abolishment of compulsory schooling.

I will get back to all of this in a couple of minutes.

On a side-note, thank you DoA and Soul.

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10-08-2014 02:33 PM
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Post: #23
RE: The School Survival Movement: Abolish Compulsory Schooling

No.

We all decided that that feud is not worth having, so we stopped having it. Right? If we didn't, we need to do that right now.

Also, DoA and Hansgrohe, you are both really intelligent individuals, with different ideas. That's all. I don't like seeing the two of you hurling accusations at each other and condesending each other. All that matters is thst you both have ideas on how to make education better, and we would all benefit more if you talked about it together, rather than bitch about who's right.

So, let's shift this conversation to something more useful. Let's just lay this out right now. What needs to happen in society before a non traditional (good) form of education can be the norm? What would that model look like? What role does SS play in making that model come to life as the norm?

I do have more to add, but that can wait until I'm on my computer.

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10-08-2014 03:24 PM
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RE: The School Survival Movement: Abolish Compulsory Schooling

Okay, let me start out by saying that whoever is unsticking this thread needs to stop. Seriously. This is a thread that is going to document a movement that DoA and I want to jump-start. It has the approval of Soul, the lead admin of SS, who seems to have stickied it when I asked her.

I am going to sticky it again. Please don't change it. If you're going to unsticky it, don't you have at least a reason as to why it shouldn't be stickied? And please, let it be a legitimate concern.

Secondly, it's really comical seeing some of the amount of hypocrisy going on in this thread. No really, it is. Yes, I'll be the one to point that out, and I'm not going to name any names, but you know who you are.

The ones who are acting hypocritical polled in this thread, started by DoA, on what your real opinion was on America's public school system, and what option you felt was best to educate the nation's youth and students, and kid you not, some of these same people share the opinion that there needs to be loosened restrictions and non-compulsory schooling.

Instead of hiding behind "thanks", can you have the decency to explain how you actually feel? I mean, come on, if you're really not for loosened restrictions and non-compulsory schooling, then why are you here? And this brings me to my next point.

You know, I was hoping to speak for all of us here on SS because I thought I could, but now rather I'm here to speak for all School Survivalists who want loosened restrictions from the public school system and abolishment of compulsory schooling.

On a side-note, I find it sad that 2 other people that are registered on SS voted on the very last option—"They're being educated just fine." MrBill, taking a look at his signature, you can see he's the typical DnE browser. Nothing to see there. But Gwedin?! I really hope you were just trolling as MrBill most likely was.

What has happened to you all? Have you all gone soft on the system or something? If you're against this, then what are you here for?

I joined this site back in 2012 because I wanted to discuss with hopefully other like-minded individuals who disliked school on all of its problems after realizing the truth of schooling, and maybe seeing an end to compulsory schooling and an end of the ways to those who work on forcing those against their will to attend.

Hans, you really played the straw man argument like there was no tomorrow, and I'll get to that right now.

I might not go in order from how you organized your points so just bear with me.

When have I ever disregarded the viewpoints of anyone else here? With the exception of anyone who's been flamebaiting, trolling, etc. I'm very respectful to those and what they have to say if they treat me the same in return, even to those who disagree. As long as you treat me with respect you can expect the same in return.

I will listen, but that doesn't mean I won't voice that I don't agree with different/opposing viewpoints and why. I'm not only very passionate about this, but really about School Survival in all.

However, it's really sad that SS seems to have a few members with contradicting viewpoints and some who are willing to, I'm sad to say it this way, wanting to settle for less and going as far as to try to "seek peace" with the system, and all the while compulsory laws will still coexist with the system, and those who dare challenge the system will definitely pay the price.

Do you really agree with this type of setting for schooling? Police having to show up at your door if you don't attend? "Supervisors", court officers, judges, etc. making sure you attend and making "truancy" a necessary evil? It really makes me question why you're still here if you do so.

Secondly—AND THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT—due to the fact that it points out a fallacy in your argument, notice that this is a vastly different situation than overthrowing the government of a second- or third-world country? How is abolishing compulsory schooling any similar to overthrowing ANY kind of government anyways?

DoA has just as much right to make massive exaggerations of comparisons and apply fallacious concepts if you're going to. You opened this door, so anyone here has just as much right to apply this to their argument if you're going to do so. Don't criticize anyone for doing so if you're going to compare this movement to overthrowing a government of a country and drafting supreme law, and preceding that how wars and actual bloodshed started.

That's like saying how we're going to fight the American government, start a civil war (i.e. called the American Schooling War), arm anti-schoolers/pro-learners on fighting America's military, and then maybe winning, after so much bloodshed, not knowing what to do and so MANY other problems happen socioeconomically, politically, militarily, environmentally, technologically, etc. because we overthrew the government... due to just wanting to end compulsory schooling. That...would cause as much turmoil as there is, or even moreso, like in the Middle East (Iraq, Syria, Egypt), North Korea, Crimea, etc.

That is so ridiculous I'm not even going to continue on that topic. If you think what DoA and I are trying to upstart is bizarre, I think you should reread over what you posted in those terms and rethink that thought...

Thirdly, just because you took a wee poll from your government class oh whether or not you'd go to high school if it was a choice doesn't automatically mean this movement is incredibly unpopular. That's like me saying DoA's poll proves that removing compulsory schooling is an extremely popular one. IMO, we'd need a poll from several sources nationwide in order to be able to consider statistics.

What we have, in terms of polling, is just not enough. But even if we did, polling isn't the end-all-be-all to this—and it never will be.

We are advocating for those who want out of school when can turn nowhere else, and that is to abolish compulsory schooling, all of the punishments that involve not attending schooling, and for the positions of those who execute those punishments to be terminated.

You sound like my parents who told me that I have to go because "everybody has to." So because the majority showed that most would still go even if not compelled to, those who wouldn't should still be, and that punishments should still exist for those who decide not to?

Additionally, part of that argument you make is highly reminiscent to the "one size fits all" argument pro-schoolers love to boast, and it has me sick to my stomach.

You'll also need to elaborate on "appeasing to a small number [...] appeal to a much more universal audience" because, IMO, that doesn't really make much sense. Many people who dislike/hate school come here to SS, but there are still many out there who do who haven't discovered SS, and for whatever reasons they may be, I don't see how this wouldn't apply to them.

I honestly think you're downplaying the reach of this movement because from my experiences I've seen homeschoolers/unschoolers in FB pages and groups advocate for non-compulsory schooling, but you don't see me boasting a "one size fits all" for homeschooling/unschooling and how they represent a "much more universal audience". Those similar to the ones you polled, who probably happen to like school, will continue attending and they and their parents can deal with all the other problems plaguing school and the structure it provides.

Fourthly, I suggest you look up what practical actually means because I don't think "Bipartisan reforms determined by our Congressmen" has any sense of practicality at the slightest. Aren't these the same individuals who've created the compulsory schooling laws?

I'm also pretty sure that some people believe that school should be separate from state, and this is for a totally different discussion but I don't trust them in handling how I want to learn, and how I want to live my life, at all. They shouldn't be in control of that. Note that I'm only advocating for the separation of state from MY education and LIFE, not the actual school vs. state topic specifically.

And I'm just nitpicking here, but seriously? "Lest you be a SirMarty, etc"? -_-

Quote:Do you know how many people I want to help? Do you know how many people I've seen just develop apathetic attitudes towards life? Do you know that I'm sick of seeing teen suicides because they were called "fag", "autistic", etc? Again, you're making it seem I am.
Was that really necessary, Hans? I don't think DoA ever even implied that it sounded that you didn't care about those who have apathetic attitudes towards life and teen suicide.

Talk about straw man to the extreme...

Quote:Try to somehow legalize gay marriage in the 60s, 70s, or 80s. That's essentially equivalent to abolishing compulsory education right now.
The majority here certainly want that, though! Wink

And this brings me to my final point for now.

Okay, but look at today! Society is advancing and maturing. I think Virginia's gay marriage ban was overturned yesterday, and albeit slowly, but surely, positive changes are being made.

Did I ever even imply I wanted to accomplish this since yesteryear?! NO! I know this will be a long and quite daunting process, but it surely won't take as long as it did with the campaigns for the returns of basic human rights.

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10-08-2014 05:35 PM
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Post: #25
RE: The School Survival Movement: Abolish Compulsory Schooling

(10-08-2014 05:35 PM)SirMarty Wrote:  On a side-note, I find it sad that 2 other people that are registered on SS voted on the very last option—"They're being educated just fine." MrBill, taking a look at his signature, you can see he's the typical DnE browser. Nothing to see there. But Gwedin?! I really hope you were just trolling as MrBill most likely was.

kek yeah I was. I'm on the fence between having compulsory schooling (if this one, I'm for major reform) and abolishing it as I think there are benefits in both.

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10-08-2014 05:59 PM
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RE: The School Survival Movement: Abolish Compulsory Schooling

(10-08-2014 05:59 PM)Gwedin Wrote:  
(10-08-2014 05:35 PM)SirMarty Wrote:  On a side-note, I find it sad that 2 other people that are registered on SS voted on the very last option—"They're being educated just fine." MrBill, taking a look at his signature, you can see he's the typical DnE browser. Nothing to see there. But Gwedin?! I really hope you were just trolling as MrBill most likely was.

kek yeah I was. I'm on the fence between having compulsory schooling (if this one, I'm for major reform) and abolishing it as I think there are benefits in both.
LOL, then I'll admit it. Successful troll is successful.

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10-08-2014 06:19 PM
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RE: The School Survival Movement: Abolish Compulsory Schooling

"Yeah, it does. It's the pathway for future generations. Self-education generally isn't seen as sufficient enough by most people anyway, and really, it isn't. I used to pimp it out quite a bit but really you do need to be taught some things. Again, the question is, how do you change it?"

That would be true if people were actually being educated in schools.

If you want to be a different fish, you've got to jump out of the school.


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10-08-2014 06:47 PM
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RE: The School Survival Movement: Abolish Compulsory Schooling

Would you look at that!

(10-19-2012 10:01 AM)Godzillaman Wrote:  School already is compulsory... That is the whole point of this forum, to fight compulsory education!

Just replace the word "education" with "schooling" and there you have it. Smile

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10-08-2014 07:07 PM
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Post: #29
RE: The School Survival Movement: Abolish Compulsory Schooling

FYI I had nothing to do with unsticking the thread and dem logs are screwed up. Unless my account got a mind of its own, I'm pretty sure I never hit the thread unstick button seeing as I rarely use those buttons. Not to mention I also didn't realize this was sticky till you pointed it out...

The activity there is a bit suspicious in my opinion. Doesn't really appear right...

EDIT:OK it appears that when I post a reply, or Sharpie , or Gwedin, the thread gets unstuck. Is that supposed to be happening?

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(06-14-2013 08:02 AM)Potato Wrote:  watch the fuq out, we've got an "intellectual" over here.

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10-08-2014 09:17 PM
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Post: #30
The School Survival Movement: Abolish Compulsory Schooling

(10-08-2014 09:17 PM)brainiac3397 Wrote:  OK it appears that when I post a reply, or Sharpie , or Gwedin, the thread gets unstuck. Is that supposed to be happening?

That has happened to me in terms of closing threads; I think it's a result of using the Quick Reply box to close or stick threads. Brain, Sharp, Gwedin - when you leave a quick reply, uncheck the "Stick Thread" box and then post as normal, and the glitch should resolve itself.

Now, what have we...?

(10-08-2014 01:53 PM)Hansgrohe Wrote:  
(10-08-2014 08:24 AM)TheCancer Wrote:  It doesn't need to be replaced with anything because it doesn't fill a relevant void.

Yeah, it does. It's the pathway for future generations.
Is that what they told you?

(10-08-2014 01:53 PM)Hansgrohe Wrote:  I never said that you don't care about others. What I said was that you should think and look at the issue from a much more worldwide perspective.
Nah, brah, you said this:

(10-07-2014 02:35 PM)Hansgrohe Wrote:  Third, what I think SirMarty, DoA, and Soul don't see here, as passionate as their arguments are, they don't think of other people and their experience of school.

Next!

(10-08-2014 01:53 PM)Hansgrohe Wrote:  Try to somehow legalize gay marriage in the 60s, 70s, or 80s. That's essentially equivalent to abolishing compulsory education right now.
Actually, I'd like to thank you for bringing this up.

Gay marriage is another one of those issues that people trusted their federal government to handle. But, surprise, surprise, they've been negligent, despite their legalization of interracial marriage a few decades ago:

[Image: marriage.png]

It has fallen to the masses to take initiative, and they have indeed done so: Now, a handful of our nation's states have legalized gay marriage, yet the federal government has provided nothing more than lip service. For shame.

The same is true for education; one state legislature could turn the tide by eliminating their compulsory schooling laws. After all, Uncle Sam isn't going to do anything!

(10-08-2014 02:41 PM)Hansgrohe Wrote:  Arguments over whether criticism/advice should be allowed, the goals of School Survival and the direction it's headed, etc. Lead to DoApocalyse.
Cute.

If you're really so tired of these arguments, and so afraid that I'm going to mess things up again because of them, why are you resurrecting them?

(10-08-2014 03:24 PM)Sub Wrote:  So, let's shift this conversation to something more useful. Let's just lay this out right now. What needs to happen in society before a non traditional (good) form of education can be the norm? What would that model look like? What role does SS play in making that model come to life as the norm?
Society's artificial dependence on free day care needs to cease in order to accomplish that aim. As a movement, it falls to us to make clear the flaws of the "education" system in order to dissuade the populace from continuing to use it. After all, it is actively harmful, even to those who are not cognizant of the harm it causes them - and quite antiquated, besides.

...

Also, where is everyone getting this "poster child of SS" bullshit from? Marty is not, and does not claim to be, anything of the kind. If this is because this particular movement is also called "School Survival", I would like to point out that the name was actually my idea, not his - if there's any self-righteousness involved here, it's probably me rather than him. (And if so, my bad.)

Public Service Announcement: First world problems are still problems.
(This post was last modified: 10-09-2014 03:08 AM by Ky.)
10-09-2014 01:30 AM
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