Movement!!! MOVEMENT PLEASE READ.

[Bob Dole]

I don't give a shit about who thinks their ancestors owned land some hundreds of years ago. It doesn't matter what a bunch of assholes did a decent amount of time ago. Shit happens. Move on. Besides, your ultimate goal is to uproot millions of people, deport them, and have one race try to take over America. If that isn't racist, I don't know what is.

[Rebelnerd]

Shuri Wrote:You're thinking of the Aztec Empire. I don't know what Nigel would support, but I would put the Aztecs back in power where they were originally.

empire? wait, you mean to say that native americans took over places? i thought only evil Europeans did that! guess what: that was already tried. the Aztecs were banished to a little swampy piece of crap land, but they expanded. what's to stop them from doing it again? indian rule does not equate to benevolent rule, understand?

Quote:No, but guess who has legal ownership? I'm sorry, "America" is incorrect. Try again.

i thought indians didn't "own" land! and "america" isn't a race, it can include anyone, including people of native descent. why can't we all just govern this land togther instead of fighting over which race "legally" owns it? yes, bad things were done to the natives in the past. but why can't we just try and create equality instead of racial supremacy?

Quote:Yes, you fought a war for independence and in doing so oppressed another group of nations. That's what this government needs. More hypocrisy. And by lineage, all white people have connections with Europe, and are therefore Europeans. But you're missing the point. The point is that it's none of your business. WE are ruled by YOU. YOU have no right to rule US. WE want to rule OURSELVES. It's about our right to freedom and sovereignty. Figure it out.

bullshit. most white living in america are no more "european" than the natives. it's they way you live now that makes you who you are, not where your ancestors came from! white american culture is not the same as European culture, their laws and customs aren't in our DNA. plus, technically the native americans are from Africa along with the rest of us! you didn't have this land origionally, you came here across the Bering land bridge! you're immigrants the same as the whites were, and if there had been natives living here and you had had the strength to destroy them, there would have been wars then too! get it through your head, i'll even capitalize it for added effect: RACE DOESN'T MATTER!!!!!!!!! who your parents were doesn't give you the right to land, i've got Armenian ancestors, and they got wiped out way more effectively than the native americans. but you don't see me going over to Armenia saying that it's "my" land, because it's not! i'm american, and just because i have armenian DNA in me doesn't make me one of them. am i angry about what happened? well seeing as a big chunk of my family got massacred, hell yes! i think the Turkish government should admit it and pay reparations, and then let that be the end of it. i don't harbor a grudge against every random Turkish guy i see on the street, because they had nothing to do with what happened. and they have no obligation to apologize to me, because "they" didn't do anything. the fact is that no race is clean, it would be next to impossible to find a people who had never done anything cruel or evil their entire history. so why can't we just let it drop and move on once it ends?

Quote:GUESS WHAT. None of the Europeans governed their people well. Go figure. Stop pointing fingers and get your head out of your ass. We're not saying "you're evil". We're saying "get your laws out of our faces". So the Aztec empire was oppressive and destructive. That's understood. I didn't see them take a ship over to Europe and rape and kill and plunder from and take over the land of all the European nations.

face it: the laws governing your people are no different than the ones governing the white americans. reservation life sucks, and that's a cause worth fighting for. but nobody's pointing a gun in your face and making you live there. yeah, a lot of american laws are wrong. if i didn't think that i wouldn't be on a site like this. but subjecting someone whose parents were indian to an unfair law is no more injust than doing the same to a person whose family was Irish or Polish or whatever. stop tying people to their ancestors, it's completely unfair!

Quote:Wrong. It IS working. Native people are taking a stand and getting things done. There's a movement going on right now for the Lakota to declare sovereignty (see other post). I don't see the world going to hell in a handbag just because the indigenous peoples get their rights back.

i have nothing against natives fighting for their rights. but laying the blame of something that happened a hundred years ago on a generation of innocent whites is not your right.

[happy fool called Nigel]

SoulRiser Wrote:What would these new laws be?

That's up to the people who make them.



I may be a founder, but I will not be a self elected leader.

[happy fool called Nigel]

SoulRiser Wrote:

Quote:This means, SoulRiser, you're living here illegally.

I live in South Africa

I don't care who was wherever first, or who legally owns whatever land, I only care about them trying their best to get along wherever they are now.

We'd get along alot better if the Unites States were another country, not an occupying force.

[happy fool called Nigel]

Anonymous1.0 Wrote:I don't give a shit about who thinks their ancestors owned land some hundreds of years ago. It doesn't matter what a bunch of assholes did a decent amount of time ago. Shit happens. Move on. Besides, your ultimate goal is to uproot millions of people, deport them, and have one race try to take over America. If that isn't racist, I don't know what is.

Your right. That is racist.


THAT'S NOT WHAT WE'RE TRYING TO DO.

Have I not said this enough times? We're not uprooting and deporting people.

It's not 'our ancestors' and 'us'. It's Native Americans.

Races don't die. The people who are part of the race may have babies and then die, but it's still the same group.

[Rebelnerd]

but that means nothing. just because you have the same skin and hair color as someone before you doesn't mean you're the same person. and it doesn't mean you are a "part" of that group if you live completely differently. if a bunch of African Americans got on a boat and one day just sailed to Nigeria or somewhere that their great great great great great great grandparents came from as slaves, do they own that land? of course not! the real Nigerians would laugh at them, and rightly so. just because something happened to your ancestors doesn't mean it's still happening to you.
god, i thought america was just about past all this race shit!

[happy fool called Nigel]

Rebelnerd Wrote:but that means nothing. just because you have the same skin and hair color as someone before you doesn't mean you're the same person. and it doesn't mean you are a "part" of that group if you live completely differently. if a bunch of African Americans got on a boat and one day just sailed to Nigeria or somewhere that their great great great great great great grandparents came from as slaves, do they own that land? of course not! the real Nigerians would laugh at them, and rightly so. just because something happened to your ancestors doesn't mean it's still happening to you.
god, i thought america was just about past all this race shit!

The African metaphor means nothing. We never left. We weren't taken away. We still live here. We always have. And as for living differently, yes, we do- to an extent. We still practice our own customs, rituals, we sing songs in our Native tounge.




And "just because something happened to your ancestors doesn't mean it's still happening to you.
god, i thought america was just about past all this race shit!"




Seriously, it's not even that much about race. It's about the people who live here, and the people who randomly moved in. The people who live here are sick of it. Got it?



And yes, it is still happening to us. And the U.S. is STILL REAPING BENEFITS FROM DEATH. The death they are mostly responsible for.


(At least the Mexican government let us have our own fucking land.)

[Guest]

Your argument is that Native Americans as a group are legitimately entitled to owning the entirety of North America and thus, by owning all of it, they are the only group that can legitimately govern the Americas. You claim they are legitimately entitled to the land because of the status of treaties.

My main argument is simple: all treaties are invalid because land cannot be owned. Land and water are the birthright of all people, not just Native Americans.

[Rebelnerd]

Nigel, WE did not take the indians' land, okay? white people today were not around back then. we simply didn't do it! if it was 1885 right now, i would be on your side because all your accusations would be true. but the people you're trying to fight are DEAD. the people who you say legitimately owned the land are DEAD. government is not run the same as it was back then. it's over. nobody is stopping you from practicing your customs anymore, and you're not being shut out of politics anymore. you are as much a part of American culture as the whites are, don't you get it? we were all born after the wars, indians and whites alike. it's OUR country, that means all of us. America has evolved it's own culture since then, the Europeans are out now. and that culture was shaped by all of us. it's not European laws anymore, it's American laws. if you have a problem with them then by all means fight them, but you have no special right to just take over the land because your great great great great great great great grandfather got driven out of his village, ok? you are part of a different world. we all are. now, we can keep on bringing up race wars and creat even more racist bullshit or we can just forget it and move on. whites have no right to force indians to follow laws they don't want. and indians have no right to force whites to follow laws they don't want. nobody has special rights, because we're not the same people our ancestors were. we're in this TOGETHER, so let's combine the culture and make something that works for everyone, instead of arguing over which skin color "owns" the land.

[happy fool called Nigel]

This isn't about white people, k?

How many times have I said that?

[happy fool called Nigel]

Wolf on Mescaline Wrote:

Kirby Wrote:My main argument is simple: all treaties are invalid because land cannot be owned.

That's actually a common philosophy of many Native American tribes. Many tribes say that land is not to be owned, because it isn't theirs to own, it's Mother Earth's, we're just borrowing it.

Very True.

[i-am-the-liquor]

i say get rid of socity, and whoever survives the chaos shall rebuild a stronger socity out of the mess tahts left.

[Rebelnerd]

happy fool called Nigel Wrote:This isn't about white people, k?

How many times have I said that?

you said Europeans. they generally tend to be white. plus, it's easier to type than to keep saying "whites and blacks and hispanics and asians and anyone who's not native american" over and over again. you know what i mean.

[Guest]

happy fool called Nigel Wrote:Very True.

Therefore your complete argument is false. If you don't own the land, you do not have the right to govern the people there.

[Trekkie_Aspie]

Really, you can repeat 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999 times that you don't mean x, doesn't mean its true.

[happy fool called Nigel]

Wolf on Mescaline Wrote:

Kirby Wrote:My main argument is simple: all treaties are invalid because land cannot be owned.

That's actually a common philosophy of many Native American tribes. Many tribes say that land is not to be owned, because it isn't theirs to own, it's Mother Earth's, we're just borrowing it.

Very true.

Bottom line:

1.The Americas did NOT have major environmental problems when first deiscovered. Once more people began to settle, it got way more fucked up.

2. The US government does not think that way, and if we keep on going on like that, they are just going to walk all over us. Then it will always be their land and they will continue to fuck it up even more.

[happy fool called Nigel]

Anyways,



I'M BACK!!!!

[Liquid]

I'm mostly white but I have a lot of Native American blood and Hispanic too... how would I fit in with your "plan"

You realize of course that most people who are part Native American aren't on reservations... do you think they would support you at all? If your "movement" gained power and took control then you would be faced with a dilemma (yes a real dilemma, not just misusing the word) Will you let the "invaders" vote? If "Yes" then your whole movement was basically pointless and the majority simply retakes power by vote. If "No" then the majority would eventually overthrow the minority government and they will be on the "offensive" side... able to chose the time and the place when you are weakest.

If "Yes" then you lose, if "No" then you lose, a true dilemma - and "jumping the horns" would take some political skill or else you could accidentally make both sides hate you.

Of course if you pulled it off somehow, I'd be happy because that would make it easier for me to stage my own revolution later

[thewake]

I'm not going to say your plan isn't noble, in fact it is. But I don't agree with it.
Wrongs were done to your Native American ancestors(and mine too), but they weren't done to us. And to base anything upon race, ethnicity, or whoever you ancestors were is pretty dumb if you ask me. If you have Native Americans running the show you would only be representing a very small portion of the populace. Of course you could kick out all the European Americans, but they have been living here their whole lives just like you have.

What you would be doing wouldn't be right and wouldn't work anyhows.

[Coma Girl]

o_0 too many long word used in a single sentence, in a little confused.

-backs away-

[Guest]

As I said before:

Kirby Wrote:

happy fool called Nigel Wrote:Very True.

Therefore your complete argument is false. If you don't own the land, you do not have the right to govern the people there.

[happy fool called Nigel]

Kirby Wrote:As I said before:

Kirby Wrote:

happy fool called Nigel Wrote:Very True.

Therefore your complete argument is false. If you don't own the land, you do not have the right to govern the people there.

I was agreeing that it was a common philosophy. I never said I agreed with it.