What do you think of people who support compulsory education?

[Fight20]

What do you think of people who support compulsory education? I mean I don't like them in that regard. I feel like they're part of the problem.

What do you people think?

[Ky]

I pity them for not knowing any better.

[Fight20]

(07-31-2016 04:29 AM)Chiron Wrote:  I pity them for not knowing any better.

I have TONS of contempt for them but I shouldn't get so worked up.

[Cianna200]

Brainwashed and ignorant, I feel bad for them, mainly the ones who feel that it is what is best for their child like my grandfather did.
Others I dislike because they show little empathy for their children and are prepared to punish them at a failure's notice. People who force schooling on others are not pleasant.

[Fight20]

(07-31-2016 05:06 AM)Cianna200 Wrote:  Brainwashed and ignorant, I feel bad for them, mainly the ones who feel that it is what is best for their child like my grandfather did.
Others I dislike because they show little empathy for their children and are prepared to punish them at a failure's notice. People who force schooling on others are not pleasant.

I mean people like the average joe civilian not the parents. But your answer is insightful.

[Ky]

(07-31-2016 04:46 AM)Fight20 Wrote:  

(07-31-2016 04:29 AM)Chiron Wrote:  I pity them for not knowing any better.

I have TONS of contempt for them but I shouldn't get so worked up.

Right. It isn't fair to be angry at someone for failing to comprehend you; it is not always easy to challenge one's own hasty preconceptions and cognitive biases.

[Cianna200]

Oh okay, I do not like them, but like the parents I said in my previous answer, they are brainwashed and ignorant as well.

[TheCancer]

Almost everyone I know supports it so I couldn't make it a single issue litmus test or I would have to go around pissed off all the time. Nobody in my personal realm shares my radical political ideas. No one I know likes Grindcore and Black Metal either. Certain parts of my life are just solo missions. If you hang on to your youthful ideologies and passions until you're old you'll find everyone else has moved on to being a part of what they originally said they hated. I liked extreme music when I was young and I still do. I was an anarchist and an atheist and I still am. I feel like what it shows is that I MEANT it. Sometimes I meet young people, even progressives and radicals, who disregard me because I'm older, but in the back of my mind I'm thinking you'll be a total sell out when you're my age. It's hard to stand alone in your beliefs for years and years but I have.

[SoulRiser]

I just make a mental note "this is a person to avoid and not expect anything good from" and then I move on. I do that with most people for various other reasons as well.

There's a difference between specifically supporting it and just kind of blindly accepting it though. The ones that just blindly accept it can still be OK, and I know I've actually convinced one person who was in college with me to homeschool her kid instead of sending him to school. She had just not really given it much thought before I came along.

Like TheCancer, I don't expect people to understand anything about me. Occasionally I get a pleasant surprise if someone actually does, though.

[DreamRebel]

It depends on why they support it. Some I think are assholes, others I think are misguided, and there are a few I congratulate. I have an extremely complex view on compulsory schooling. I was figuring to state it, except I still don't entirely know how to explain it yet. It's a bit like.... The youth should be compulsorily given the resources and the opportunity for socialization, but while they're at school they don't have to do anything and can be alone if they want to, and anything they do doesn't have any catches except for decency. Because there was a time where school was the only place I felt secure, but I've also been to hellish schools.

[no]

I think they taste best barbequed.

[True Strasserist]

Compulsory education is a noble concept if it includes the right to homeschool.

[Ky]

(07-31-2016 12:57 PM)True Strasserist Wrote:  Compulsory education is a noble concept if it includes the right to homeschool.

Aaaah! A ghost!

[DreamRebel]

I saw that vile puzzle piece and shat.

[the Analogist]

I feel like people who support compulsory school typically believe two things (1) that schooling is "effective/useful" and (2) making them do it is the same as everybody doing it.

With regards to (1) pretty much nobody has really thought about school's purpose and whether the actual content of school is a match for the purpose. This is the basic question of goodness of a thing; (a) what end does it hope for? (b) does the action fit the end? If a clueless person, bereft of passion for learning, lacking any knowledge of how the world works is their end, then school is mostly perfect. Since nobody bothers to define an "educated" person, it is simply useless to discuss the second aspect which is "how to get from child to proper* adult?" (*much disagreement as to the exact meaning of "proper")

With regards to (2), Laws can punish at best, but never control. Compulsory school laws were on the books in many places for years before anybody took them seriously, and they needed the police to force it to happen.

Minimum wage laws do not cause employers to be generous, it causes them to be resentful of employees and the government.

In America we passed the 13th, 14th, and 15th amendments to the constitution and now its really great to be black in America right?????

Laws don't fix people, and education needs a clear purpose whose content is a match for that purpose.

[TheCancer]

At what age or at what point do you think education should be driven by specific practical purpose?

As a teacher, for where my students are at, I feel like I'm teaching how to learn not so much content but the ability to digest content.

[craxyguy562]

Pretty much everyone supports compulsory education. It's the social norm so I don't have any thoughts on them.

[the Analogist]

(08-01-2016 02:15 AM)TheCancer Wrote:  At what age or at what point do you think education should be driven by specific practical purpose?

First of all, that specific practical purpose should be decided by and done by the student. When it makes sense, the role of the teacher shifts into being a mentor with whom the student simply consults. When they are still "learning from us" instead of "learning themselves"... I don't think these are two stages. My two year olds are quite adept hobbyists. They like to wreck things and pretend. I really don't think this distinction makes sense.

Please read My Musings in the Alternative learning section, its pretty much laid out there.

Quote:How do we prepare kids for adulthood/working?
The process I envision is as follows, that the natural interests of children are encouraged enthusiastically at first, and as they grow up over time, our support becomes more challenging and critical.

The “facts of life” are, as facts, a matter where the child should be sat down and made to listen, but we have to be honest with ourselves about where our knowledge ends, and work, perhaps even with them, to fill those gaps.

Trips outside the house to find information and the people who have it are wonderful, meaningful, purposeful adventures which can result in contacts, networks, and even the possibility of referrals to people in a position to employ or invest.

If your child wants to be a(n) “X”, find some “X’s”, and ask them hard questions about what is it really like and how do you get in. Curiosity needs to be satisfied and the greater world needs to be made available to pique such curiosity.

Don’t just “get out of the house”, do it with purpose, conviction, and objectives, even if they are vague.

I wrote this for my pamphlet. I don't pretend to know what age works for each kid. Depends on their interests and what they want to learn about and do. Some stuff can start super young like construction, others you won't understand until you're older like coding.

My intent in being open ended is not to create any arbitrary benchmarks.

The only parallel or analogy I offer is from the Muslim tradition. We are supposed to teach our kids to pray when they are 7, make them do it at 10, because one they enter puberty (varies per kid as well) THAT is the age when Allah begins recording sins.

To clarify further, the Prophet's (saws) cousin 'Ali (ra) recommended that from 0-7 you play with your kids, from 7-14 you teach them, from 14 to 21 you befriend them, and from 21 and on you let them go.

So on THAT basis, I would say around 10... but it depends

[TheCancer]

Concrete answer. Thank you.

[Username]

(07-31-2016 07:49 AM)TheCancer Wrote:  I liked grindcore and black metal when I was young and I still do.

Join the club.

[Fight20]

(07-31-2016 09:45 AM)Lucky-Feet Wrote:  It depends on why they support it. Some I think are assholes, others I think are misguided, and there are a few I congratulate. I have an extremely complex view on compulsory schooling. I was figuring to state it, except I still don't entirely know how to explain it yet. It's a bit like.... The youth should be compulsorily given the resources and the opportunity for socialization, but while they're at school they don't have to do anything and can be alone if they want to, and anything they do doesn't have any catches except for decency. Because there was a time where school was the only place I felt secure, but I've also been to hellish schools.

So you agree with compulsory education?

---

(07-31-2016 12:57 PM)True Strasserist Wrote:  Compulsory education is a noble concept if it includes the right to homeschool.

NO IT'S NOT. If the government states what is best for you then MAKES you have it, they've well stepped over the line. Society should mind it's own business.

[Ky]

(08-03-2016 04:41 AM)Fight20 Wrote:  NO IT'S NOT. If the government states what is best for you then MAKES you have it, they've well stepped over the line. Society should mind it's own business.

I agree completely. Coercion is the tool of the despot.

[Fight20]

(08-03-2016 04:47 AM)Chiron Wrote:  

(08-03-2016 04:41 AM)Fight20 Wrote:  NO IT'S NOT. If the government states what is best for you then MAKES you have it, they've well stepped over the line. Society should mind it's own business.

I agree completely. Coercion is the tool of the despot.

Sometimes I feel like smacking or even killing the people that support/run compulsory education. I know it's violent but it's how I feel sometimes. I didn't do ANYTHING to deserve compulsory education yet society is like "Tough shit, you need to learn!" and so it ran it.

[Ky]

(08-03-2016 04:50 AM)Fight20 Wrote:  

(08-03-2016 04:47 AM)Chiron Wrote:  

(08-03-2016 04:41 AM)Fight20 Wrote:  NO IT'S NOT. If the government states what is best for you then MAKES you have it, they've well stepped over the line. Society should mind it's own business.

I agree completely. Coercion is the tool of the despot.

Sometimes I feel like smacking or even killing the people that support/run compulsory education. I know it's violent but it's how I feel sometimes. I didn't do ANYTHING to deserve compulsory education yet society is like "Tough shit, you need to learn!" and so it ran it.

It makes me angry as well, but violence is not the answer - it, too, is the defining characteristic of a totalitarian (or, at the very least, an extremist).

A revolution of force only delays society's inevitable return to systematic oppression. What we require is a revolution of thought.

[sswbm]

In France they had a revolution a few centuries ago and that's why France is now free of systematic oppression and- oh wait

[James Comey]

(07-31-2016 04:25 AM)Fight20 Wrote:  What do you think of people who support compulsory education? I mean I don't like them in that regard. I feel like they're part of the problem.

What do you people think?

The idea of compulsory education was pretty noble during the 19th century. It provided an outlet for people to actually learn about things they normally didn't. Literacy, maths, etc. Of course, the intentions weren't so good, but I think a lot of SS'ers are afraid to admit the education system actually once served a purpose.

Of course, everyone on here knows it's a gigantic, big mess. So we know how pathetically shit it is.

What do I think of people who support compulsory education? Gee, that's a big and vague category - I'm pretty sure a lot of those people have good intentions. It's like asking, "What do you think of people who support preservation of forests", or some other vague question. It can't be answered.

So there.

[Fight20]

(08-03-2016 05:04 PM)Hansgrohe Wrote:  

(07-31-2016 04:25 AM)Fight20 Wrote:  What do you think of people who support compulsory education? I mean I don't like them in that regard. I feel like they're part of the problem.

What do you people think?

The idea of compulsory education was pretty noble during the 19th century. It provided an outlet for people to actually learn about things they normally didn't. Literacy, maths, etc. Of course, the intentions weren't so good, but I think a lot of SS'ers are afraid to admit the education system actually once served a purpose.

Of course, everyone on here knows it's a gigantic, big mess. So we know how pathetically shit it is.

What do I think of people who support compulsory education? Gee, that's a big and vague category - I'm pretty sure a lot of those people have good intentions. It's like asking, "What do you think of people who support preservation of forests", or some other vague question. It can't be answered.

So there.

There is/was NOTHING noble about forcing people to go to school. Horace Mann who orchestrated the whole thing even said he wanted to mold children to the means of the state. Privatized education was the way to go yet the state decided to go ruin that so private education is high priced.

Guy was a complete PRICK: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horace_Mann

Talk about someone who couldn't mind his own beeswax. Want to know the most ironic thing? He homeschooled his own kids! Instead of making his kids go to the public school which he made other people's kids go to he homeschooled them! It's like what is this? I don't even-

Shouldn't forcing education tell you something like that it's crap? If the education was good they wouldn't have force people to it I mean children are naturally curious. It seems like the state was aware that people wouldn't like this stuff "But fuck it! We have the means to make them go!"

Look I'm a Libertarian so I'm not going to take kindly to state coercion. If people want to learn great! But if they don't, mind your own beeswax and leave them alone. And they call this a free country!

[James Comey]

(08-04-2016 02:17 AM)Fight20 Wrote:  

(08-03-2016 05:04 PM)Hansgrohe Wrote:  

(07-31-2016 04:25 AM)Fight20 Wrote:  What do you think of people who support compulsory education? I mean I don't like them in that regard. I feel like they're part of the problem.

What do you people think?

The idea of compulsory education was pretty noble during the 19th century. It provided an outlet for people to actually learn about things they normally didn't. Literacy, maths, etc. Of course, the intentions weren't so good, but I think a lot of SS'ers are afraid to admit the education system actually once served a purpose.

Of course, everyone on here knows it's a gigantic, big mess. So we know how pathetically shit it is.

What do I think of people who support compulsory education? Gee, that's a big and vague category - I'm pretty sure a lot of those people have good intentions. It's like asking, "What do you think of people who support preservation of forests", or some other vague question. It can't be answered.

So there.

There is/was NOTHING noble about forcing people to go to school. Horace Mann who orchestrated the whole thing even said he wanted to mold children to the means of the state. Privatized education was the way to go yet the state decided to go ruin that so private education is high priced.

Guy was a complete PRICK: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horace_Mann

Talk about someone who couldn't mind his own beeswax. Want to know the most ironic thing? He homeschooled his own kids! Instead of making his kids go to the public school which he made other people's kids go to he homeschooled them! It's like what is this? I don't even-

Shouldn't forcing education tell you something like that it's crap? If the education was good they wouldn't have force people to it I mean children are naturally curious. It seems like the state was aware that people wouldn't like this stuff "But fuck it! We have the means to make them go!"

Look I'm a Libertarian so I'm not going to take kindly to state coercion. If people want to learn great! But if they don't, mind your own beeswax and leave them alone. And they call this a free country!

To put it into context, most children at the time were working in factories. I never said "the education system is awesome, FUCK YEAH", but I simply said within the context of the era. A rock and a hard place.

I somewhat agree on the free country angle - this is a country where peeing in public gets you a sexual offense charged onto you. I believe education is a chosen right, not a "requirement" of life. However, I'd be very careful about grouping a very large number of people.

[Ky]

(08-04-2016 03:57 AM)Hansgrohe Wrote:  To put it into context, most children at the time were working in factories. I never said "the education system is awesome, FUCK YEAH", but I simply said within the context of the era. A rock and a hard place.

I somewhat agree on the free country angle - this is a country where peeing in public gets you a sexual offense charged onto you. I believe education is a chosen right, not a "requirement" of life. However, I'd be very careful about grouping a very large number of people.

Don't even get me started on child labor laws. When I was in my early teens, I resented having an abysmally low number of legal means to make an income. In my case, the time it took me to graduate from high school would have been much better spent learning a trade.

[DreamRebel]

(08-03-2016 04:41 AM)Fight20 Wrote:  So you agree with compulsory education?

Slightly. It has its upsides and its downsides in theory and practice both, and would actually be pretty good if it weren't being implemented all wrong. I have my reasons for my opinion, and it's a lot more complicated than I've actually stated, but you have to realize that sometimes schools are the only places people feel secure.
That being said, I acknowledge that there are more bad schools than good schools, and that there are many factors that keep good schools from reaching their full beneficial potential.
I agree with intellectual resource availability. I agree with the distribution of meals. I agree with the ability to separate children from abusive homes. I agree with making sure people know things that they need to know.
That doesn't mean I don't think that every school system I've ever heard of is shitty, of course, because they are shitty as hell. There's only one school I've ever been to that I like much, and even it has its critical downsides.