Do you love your country?

[happy fool called Nigel]

Probably Weswammy Wrote:I personally think that people should forget about things in the distant past, sure things could have been better.
People then committed inexcusable crimes.

1. 84 years ago. That's when Native Americans got to vote. 1960's. That's when people FINALLY started giving a shit about us. Is that a distant past, seriously? Was Nazi Germany a distant think in the past we should forget? Up to 100 million people died needlessly. That's 16 times the number of Jews who died in the Nazi regime (and they are still really sensitive about it, will you get on their case) and almost 1OO TIMES THE AMOUNT OF THE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE.

Seriously? Forget about it? I know you don't care about it because it didn't happen to you you insensitive prick, but don't go around telling other people to get over it.

Probably Weswammy Wrote:You have to look at it in the big picture though. These things are the past. Have you ever heard of the saying "Live and let live."?

If the Europeans had, and the US government would, actually take the stance of "Live and let live", I wouldn't be making a fuss. And I know you think all the injustices are over.

The government still holds us back from living in our way, the government IS STILL OCCUPYING.

STILL.

If a large group of people, call them A, goes to a far of land, finds another group of people, call them B, kills alot of them off, and then move in, that's injustice. If A still occupies B after five hundred years, THAT'S SILL INJUSTICE. It's still oppression.

[thewake]

Why do you have to group people together? Why not treat them as individuals and stop being like, "OMG! WHIT PEEPL KILLED US! OMG!!!" and "LOL WE ARE GUNNA TAKE BACK OUR LAND!!! BCUZ CLEARLY AN ORGANIZATION HAS AS MUCH RIGHT AS AN IDIVIDUAL!LL!!!!!!111one"

Seriously. Just accept people as individuals.
Why don't you seek redress for what the man has done to you and stop acting like you have a birthright?

[demonater10]

Probably Weswammy Wrote:Why do you have to group people together? Why not treat them as individuals and stop being like, "OMG! WHIT PEEPL KILLED US! OMG!!!" and "LOL WE ARE GUNNA TAKE BACK OUR LAND!!! BCUZ CLEARLY AN ORGANIZATION HAS AS MUCH RIGHT AS AN IDIVIDUAL!LL!!!!!!111one"

Seriously. Just accept people as individuals.
Why don't you seek redress for what the man has done to you and stop acting like you have a birthright?

I think every country is quite gay.

[thewake]

demonater10 Wrote:I think every country is quite gay.

Touché.

[TheDelinquent]

If I may, nigel isn't saying that you're wrong about seeing people as individuals or the past transgression vs. current transgression dichotomy. He's saying certain individuals are commiting transgressions quite current against people who just tangentially happen to count themselves as part of a group. That group being, native Americans.

[happy fool called Nigel]

TheDelinquent Wrote:If I may, nigel isn't saying that you're wrong about seeing people as individuals or the past transgression vs. current transgression dichotomy. He's saying certain individuals are commiting transgressions quite current against people who just tangentially happen to count themselves as part of a group. That group being, native Americans.

Thank you. We actually only think of ourselves as a race because:

1. We had atrocities committed against us because we were considered to be part of a race. Before whites came, we really had no concept of it.

2. Because of the holocaust, our survival depends on our unity, and we can unify by becoming one race.

[happy fool called Nigel]

Probably Weswammy Wrote:Why do you have to group people together? Why not treat them as individuals and stop being like, "OMG! WHIT PEEPL KILLED US! OMG!!!" and "LOL WE ARE GUNNA TAKE BACK OUR LAND!!! BCUZ CLEARLY AN ORGANIZATION HAS AS MUCH RIGHT AS AN IDIVIDUAL!LL!!!!!!111one"

Seriously. Just accept people as individuals.
Why don't you seek redress for what the man has done to you and stop acting like you have a birthright?

1. I do try to redress what the man has done to me.
I never hear you criticize the U.S. for not thinking of itself in terms of "us" and "our ancestors". They don't say "Our ancestors freed the slaves but that was a long time ago lets forget about slavery." They say "Yay for America! It freed the slaves!"

2. When someone commits a holocaust against a group of people, and you try to reverse the effects of that holocaust and help those people, you probably have to focus on that specific group, otherwise it wouldn't work.

[thewake]

The people who died are dead.
Seriously. They can't have the wrongs done to them redressed.

And I don't think of myself as American near as much as Christian, ore human.
So seriously, I don't care if my ancestors helped the slaves(they did, 2 of them fought for the Union even though one of them owned slaves).
It doesn't matter.

I just don't think you have a right to special privileges because your ancestors owned the continent before mine came.
It's seriously no big deal. All of them are dead. Nobody alive has been wronged(at least not that much) and if they have they should seek redress, otherwise no.
It's just like affirmative action, it's racist against people who have white skin.

[TheDelinquent]

You do not think of yourself as an Athenian or a Greek, rather as a Christian human. Interesting.

As far as the topic goes, I agree with both of you. The ancestors of the native Americans are not entitled to any privileges dependent on that heritage, indeed. But they are entitled to rights common to all of humanity, the most rarely recognized of which only they may currently recall.

[happy fool called Nigel]

Probably Weswammy Wrote:The people who died are dead.
Seriously. They can't have the wrongs done to them redressed.

And I don't think of myself as American near as much as Christian, ore human.
So seriously, I don't care if my ancestors helped the slaves(they did, 2 of them fought for the Union even though one of them owned slaves).
It doesn't matter.

I just don't think you have a right to special privileges because your ancestors owned the continent before mine came.
It's seriously no big deal. All of them are dead. Nobody alive has been wronged(at least not that much) and if they have they should seek redress, otherwise no.
It's just like affirmative action, it's racist against people who have white skin.

1. Again, I personally don't think of this in term of "my ancestors and yours" or in terms of skin color. It's not "Your ancestors" it's the American government. The United States doesn't think of itself in those terms, I don't plan to.

2. People are still being wronged, the occupation and oppression continues.

[cryptevah72]

theres a differance between revenge, and fixing something. just because it already happened doesnt mean that u sould forget about it. i do believe that its important to mive on, but only after you make sure that whatever was done wont happen again. i usually think revenge is stupid, but theres a differance between revenge and punishment as well. for all those who do wrong in this world, i'd like to say just stop them and then leave them alone, but most people want to retaliate. somertimes its a stupid thing, and sometimes its ok to do, though not taking revenge, however small, will always be a better thing to do.

anyway, i have a question, why is it that most people here like where and how they are living? i feel like a total brat because i hate where and how im living, so am i a brat or depressed or actually entitled to have those emotions?

[happy fool called Nigel]

cryptevah72 Wrote:theres a differance between revenge, and fixing something. just because it already happened doesnt mean that u sould forget about it. i do believe that its important to mive on, but only after you make sure that whatever was done wont happen again. i usually think revenge is stupid, but theres a differance between revenge and punishment as well. for all those who do wrong in this world, i'd like to say just stop them and then leave them alone, but most people want to retaliate. somertimes its a stupid thing, and sometimes its ok to do, though not taking revenge, however small, will always be a better thing to do.

anyway, i have a question, why is it that most people here like where and how they are living? i feel like a total brat because i hate where and how im living, so am i a brat or depressed or actually entitled to have those emotions?

Hm....

I don't think you're a brat. What do you hate about it?

[thewake]

happy fool called Nigel Wrote:1. Again, I personally don't think of this in term of "my ancestors and yours" or in terms of skin color. It's not "Your ancestors" it's the American government. The United States doesn't think of itself in those terms, I don't plan to.

The US government is pretty messed up, so why stoop to their level or subscribe to their flawed thinking?

Quote:2. People are still being wronged, the occupation and oppression continues.

Not just to Natives though.

cryptevah72 Wrote:anyway, i have a question, why is it that most people here like where and how they are living? i feel like a total brat because i hate where and how im living, so am i a brat or depressed or actually entitled to have those emotions

I love where I live, the rolling hills, trees, and farmland is beautiful. The people are friendly, although in some of the neighboring areas people are friendlier. I don't exactly like how I live though, any American is too wasteful about how they live and I don't like being wasteful.

I personally think you just have the basic human desire to want something different, a change. Or maybe the place you live really isn't that great.
It's all based around opinion and you are entitled to your opinion.

[cryptevah72]

ok. i guess a lot of it might be the fact that i for the most part hate how i was even born, like, human. idk, im weird that way but i often see no point in living. not in an emo way, but in a logical sense, being realistic theres so much corruption, so much horror and crap thats all humanitys fault and i try to do what i can to help stop it, but i dont see any way of fixing things for real, its like im fighting for alost cause.

suicide isnt an option though (hopefully) because i wouldnt do that to my loved ones, and because i dont want to completely watse my life, literally. but i just hate the situation im in, i hate being human, living under govornment, having great parents who dont act so great sometimes (its hard to have an inbetween, because i know i have awsome parents, and i know i love them, but that just makes it harder when they do things that are like, things i'd complain about alot, and so i cant really like or hate them, and with my emotions, its always like that, there are no definites in my life, only unclear maybes and confusion)

i dont like where i live, but i cant think of many other places i'd like to be. i dont like who i am, or what i've accomplished, which is close to nothing. the few options i barely have that are things i'd actually like; are either unrealistic, extremely hard to do or come by, or barely a possibility.

ugh, sorry, i should probably move this to voices in ur head....

[Ahab]

happy fool called Nigel Wrote:text

If you are one who quite genuinely cares about this issue to go beyond it on a superficial basis, I apologise for the question (and am in such case a profound idiot) but are you making these statements because of enjoyment of being pissed off about social injustice? This is not to say you are right or wrong in your opinions, but I am curious. Rage Against The Machine got off to this on a daily basis and made quite the cash, community, and women from it. Perhaps you won't be able to get girls or money from it but there defnitely is community in a feeling of nonconformity.

[thewake]

There's a bigger community in conformity.

[Slaughter]

I never felt as if I owned anything to my country, because my country never did anything for me. I didn't even wish to be here, if it was up to me, I would live somewhere in Europe. Brazil sucks.

[undergroundrevolutionary]

but Brazilian girls are the best!

[fragile-esteem]

I loved Poland, but not their politics. I loved England's politics. Now I live in Scotland. It rains, it winds, it is muddy, they make us play football in the mud with shorts on and they're nationalist. I HATE THIS PLACE!!!

[random_name]

i dislike england, but i dont hate it. things could be a lot worse, at least our government dont kill us all for fun.

[Lucie]

maybe, I love my city, but as for my country the USA is too hypocritical for my liking.

Hidden stuff:

In all the nations that the '33-'45 Holocaust took place in all the school children have it drilled into their heads that it was wrong. But because the USA is better in every single way ( ) we don't have to be lectured about the 125 000 people our government killed with two bombs. I don't think I can really ever forgive my country for doing it and not trying to atone it.

[Happy Camper]

I like the general principals that the country was founded on. And most of them have been maintained...at least a little bit today. But I don't feel any particular attachment to my country. But the original values.

[Slaughter]

The problem with Brazil is that we're ruled by thieves and we can't do jack about it. "Vote for better people" someone may say.

But there are NO BETTER PEOPLE! All politicians in our country are lying bastards who steal our money, lie to us and get absurd monthly pay.

The Congress is the worse scum pit of Brazil, even Rio de Janeiro's worst slums of scum and villany aren't as bad as the congress. Congress is made of liars, thieves and crazies. The few decent people (if you know more than 3 decent people in the congress right now, you are either desilusional or know too much) are totally non-influential.

This country is also besieged by the influence of organized crime. They pretty much took over Rio de Janeiro already. Crime is getting worse and worse and there's no hope for a solution. Walking in the streets is pretty dangerous even in the safest places, and I was robbed near my apartment, in the center of the city.

This country has no hope. The only way we could fix it is a civil war that would end with the entire congress being killed, the president dead and pretty much everyone in the three powers DEAD.

That will never happen, though. We're too weak, stupid and conformed to try and arise against our oppressors. "Democracy" my foot, this is a right-out oligarchy. Don't fool yourselves here. This country DESERVES to die. Fast. There is no hope.

[the forgotten]

Slaughter Wrote:All politicians in our country are lying bastards who steal our money, lie to us and get absurd monthly pay.

Fix'd.

[Tasty Waffles]

I hate all countries. They can all burn in my ass.

[.xstrike-anywherex.]

I love the USA for the spirit of its people, not the heads of state who are often a shame to what liberty stands for. I admire the abolitionists and operators of the underground railroad, the true liberators of slavery rather than Abraham Lincoln, I admire the unions of this nation the stood firm in the face of arrest and even death, just because it is our inherent right to be given a fair living wage. I admire the women who stood up in protest of an oppressive government so they could too gain the right to participate in politics. I admire the millions who marched for minority civil rights, the millions who stood in protest of the Vietnam war. And even now, the mass of people who stand up and say no to war and oppression today. Those who believe liberty is always something to fight for. That's why I love the USA, because our people are never put down, because the heads of state who constantly screw us over are cowards who stand no chance against the force of a demanding people, organized in the name of liberty.

[thewake]

.xstrike-anywherex. Wrote:just because it is our inherent right to be given a fair living wage.

Lol.

[Tasty Waffles]

.xstrike-anywherex. Wrote:I love the USA for the spirit of its people, not the heads of state who are often a shame to what liberty stands for. I admire the abolitionists and operators of the underground railroad, the true liberators of slavery rather than Abraham Lincoln, I admire the unions of this nation the stood firm in the face of arrest and even death, just because it is our inherent right to be given a fair living wage. I admire the women who stood up in protest of an oppressive government so they could too gain the right to participate in politics. I admire the millions who marched for minority civil rights, the millions who stood in protest of the Vietnam war. And even now, the mass of people who stand up and say no to war and oppression today. Those who believe liberty is always something to fight for. That's why I love the USA, because our people are never put down, because the heads of state who constantly screw us over are cowards who stand no chance against the force of a demanding people, organized in the name of liberty.

I hate the goverment, I dont admire people for supporting a corrupt goverment.

[Comrade joe]

Do i love my country?

No.

[dreamer...]

.xstrike-anywherex. Wrote:No I don't. And you can't tell my to move somewhere else because there isn't a country on Earth that would make me patriotic. So I'd have to live out on a boat in the middle of the Pacific Ocean. But I don't love the Pacific Ocean either so I'd have to kill myself, but then I wouldn't be proud of the black void of nothingness either. So I'll just stay in the USA that I do not take much pride in.

.xstrike-anywherex. Wrote:I love the USA for the spirit of its people, not the heads of state who are often a shame to what liberty stands for. I admire the abolitionists and operators of the underground railroad, the true liberators of slavery rather than Abraham Lincoln, I admire the unions of this nation the stood firm in the face of arrest and even death, just because it is our inherent right to be given a fair living wage. I admire the women who stood up in protest of an oppressive government so they could too gain the right to participate in politics. I admire the millions who marched for minority civil rights, the millions who stood in protest of the Vietnam war. And even now, the mass of people who stand up and say no to war and oppression today. Those who believe liberty is always something to fight for. That's why I love the USA, because our people are never put down, because the heads of state who constantly screw us over are cowards who stand no chance against the force of a demanding people, organized in the name of liberty.

Why such a change of heart?
Anyway, I agree wholeheartedly with your second response. I love the United States because of the principle of freedom it was founded upon, even though the founders defined "freedom" too narrowly. I like the thought that the nation was created through a revolution. As the song goes: "The flag still stands for freedom, and they can't take that away." Yes, the government's corrupt, the country is flawed. But it's that uncorrupted, flawless idea that counts. Freedom.

Still, I admit that the principle of freedom is not the only reason I love my country. I love America in part because I was born here. Oh yes, it's illogical...but that doesn't make it any less true. I'm proud to be American just as I'm proud to be female, just as I'm proud to have hazel eyes and and thin "piano-player" hands. Had I been born in Sweden, I'd feel proud to be Swedish. Had I been born a redhead, I'd be proud of that. I am in no way implying that my country is better than any other country.

You can say countries are only lines on a map, but I'll still feel that strange connection to the USA. "American" somehow defines me...it's as much a part of me as my gender and eye color. I realize not everybody feels this connection to their homeland...and that's perfectly okay, too. Everyone is different. But unless you feel as I do, I doubt you'll understand (Nigel, do you feel the same about the Native American peoples?)...It's a feeling that makes no sense...and yet...it's there.