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Absnt · 07-15-2011 09:27 PM

Edit to avoid confusion: I don't necessarily believe communism or socialism is the best form of government, and I don't necessarily believe capitalism is the best form of economic governance. Either one could work, in my opinion, if some things were changed.

This is your new form of government:

1.) Everyone, by default, gets the bare essentials of life.

- Water
- Some food.
- Housing.
- Health Care

2.) If you want more than that, you get a job, and then you can get "credits" to get more shit.

3.) If nobody wants to do a certain job, they don't have to... We just won't have that service. For example, if nobody wants to work at the water treatment plant, nobody will get clean water. And if that happens, people will WANT to work there in order to get that clean water... (Also, for jobs that are in need, you get extra credits.)

4.) Everyone is guaranteed a job if they want one, that way, there's PLENTY of people for each job. No more joblessness, no more poverty....

5.) Non-essential jobs still get you credits, but only if people are willing to spend some credits to obtain what you create. If you're an artist, and just draw random shit, and nobody wants your random shit, you won't get extra fucking credits.

6.) Some jobs require education. Education is free.

I haven't worked out how the government would operate yet, though. It's basically communism, but better. lol. I think it would work if everyone wanted it.

thewake · 07-15-2011 09:37 PM

Sounds about like now. People don't have to go hungry if they really don't want to. Soup kitchens, numerous government welfare programs.

I mean, health care isn't free now, but it won't be free anyway. Somebody's paying for that. And you can go to the emergency room and get care.

Oh, and I don't want it. So it won't work.

HeartofShadows · 07-15-2011 09:43 PM

Funny thing is I actually thought of a government like this but it was in a story I did when I was in high school but I called it a Idcracy society(though there were some key differences). Shame its all about profit and little about stability.

Edit: knew our resident capitalist would come in.

Efs · 07-15-2011 09:55 PM

That's pretty much how I want the world to be like lol
We think alike Biggrin

Is this communism though? Everyone gets the bare essentials, you get a job if you want extra? And in capitalist country you just work to buy everything. And in some forms of communism there is a government like how they Chinese and the Soviets did it, but not neccessarily since communism can work without a government. If what I said is true. I'm officially a Communist and I will learn Russian. Poka!

Absnt · 07-15-2011 09:59 PM

Fucked if I know. But it's certainly not how it is now. And it wouldn't REALLY be like communism because if people don't do the work, then NOBODY gets the benefits. And there'd be no money. And shit. It'd work, and it'd be pretty chill, but actually getting it implemented would be impossible. I think.

HeartofShadows · 07-15-2011 10:03 PM

Absentinsomniac Wrote:Fucked if I know. But it's certainly not how it is now. And it wouldn't REALLY be like communism because if people don't do the work, then NOBODY gets the benefits. And there'd be no money. And shit. It'd work, and it'd be pretty chill, but actually getting it implemented would be impossible. I think.

Yeah it would..
The corporations would fight this shit tooth and nail and they would get the CIA in this to fight this like they did communism.

HeartofShadows · 07-15-2011 10:05 PM

Okay just a quick question..
How would you deal with the population risk(would you instill population limits?)

Absnt · 07-15-2011 10:08 PM

HeartofShadows Wrote:Okay just a quick question..
How would you deal with the population risk(would you instil population limits?)

Good point... Laugh

I'd colonise Mars, or the moon. But yeah, I guess you'd probably have to one way or another. China's way of doing it isn't exactly helping their rep, so I don't really know how we'd do it in a "politically correct" way or whatever...

Maybe we could just disseminate information on why having a kid isn't that fucking awesome, and make condoms free or something? That might work.

Efs · 07-15-2011 10:09 PM

Absentinsomniac Wrote:Fucked if I know. But it's certainly not how it is now. And it wouldn't REALLY be like communism because if people don't do the work, then NOBODY gets the benefits. And there'd be no money. And shit. It'd work, and it'd be pretty chill, but actually getting it implemented would be impossible. I think.

I don't think it's impossible. But I do think it would be hard since everyone would have to work together. I think this is why some Communist states had a vanguard party to control everything, but obviously that = corruption, no matter the prior intentions. But it would work, I'd work even if I got nothing. As long as everything was free and peacefull.

Oh I fucking love Communism now.

HeartofShadows · 07-15-2011 10:20 PM

It would have to be an ideal neutral society in order to work.
The people would either have to have gone through some kind of enlightenment on their own or they would have to be so scared by an event that happens that they are forced too.
I mean any government would work as even capitalism is working now but yeah it won't be perfect.
Colonizing mars is nice but eventually people will have to own up to responsibility in this neutral society and will have to stop having kids so much(we can take a bit of a hint from brave new world).

thewake · 07-15-2011 10:22 PM

HeartofShadows Wrote:How would you deal with the population risk(would you instill population limits?)

This society would hopefully be free enough to deal with it itself, via market incentives.

Assuming it is as simple as it is made out to be, and there aren't restrictions I don't know about on free exchange and property rights.

Efs · 07-15-2011 10:23 PM

HeartofShadows Wrote:It would have to be an ideal neutral society in order to work.
The people would either have to have gone through some kind of enlightenment on their own or they would have to be so scared by an event that happens that they are forced too.
I mean any government would work as even capitalism is working now but yeah it won't be perfect.
Colonizing mars is nice but eventually people will have to own up to responsibility in this neutral society and will have to stop having kids so much(we can take a bit of a hint from brave new world).

How about all the SS members create our society? lol

Easy, get the girls on the pill, wear a condom, or save your sperm in a lab and go infertile.

HeartofShadows · 07-15-2011 10:27 PM

Efstratios Prime Wrote:How about all the SS members create our society? lol

Easy, get the girls on the pill, wear a condom, or save your sperm in a lab and go infertile.

If this was a society of SS people I wouldn't really be worried about it.

thewake · 07-15-2011 10:32 PM

HeartofShadows Wrote:
Efstratios Prime Wrote:How about all the SS members create our society? lol

Easy, get the girls on the pill, wear a condom, or save your sperm in a lab and go infertile.

If this was a society of SS people I wouldn't really be worried about it.

I would. You guys would impose rent control on all my high rises.

HeartofShadows · 07-15-2011 10:34 PM

Weswammy Wrote:I would. You guys would impose rent control on all my high rises.

Wes I'm not an anarchist.
I'm more of a neutral society guy where a society actually does what its suppose to do and takes care of its citizens. Sure I'm not a vast lover of corporations but I'm not gonna drill them into the ground(Still believe you guys owe something to society the same as everybody else).

Efs · 07-15-2011 10:35 PM

Weswammy Wrote:
HeartofShadows Wrote:
Efstratios Prime Wrote:How about all the SS members create our society? lol

Easy, get the girls on the pill, wear a condom, or save your sperm in a lab and go infertile.

If this was a society of SS people I wouldn't really be worried about it.
I would. You guys would impose rent control on all my high rises.

Pfft no need!
We'll all build each other houses. Grow our own food etc. Train in defence and military tactics. Get some highspeed interwebz. Awyeah.

HeartofShadows · 07-15-2011 10:38 PM

Waiting on alacurd to come in here eventually.

Absnt · 07-15-2011 10:42 PM

Errybody knows errybody on this site too well. Laugh

thewake · 07-15-2011 10:43 PM

Efstratios Prime Wrote:
Weswammy Wrote:
HeartofShadows Wrote:If this was a society of SS people I wouldn't really be worried about it.
I would. You guys would impose rent control on all my high rises.
Pfft no need!
We'll all build each other houses. Grow our own food etc. Train in defence and military tactics. Get some highspeed interwebz. Awyeah.

It'd be more efficient if we all specialized. So I build houses, you grow food, etc.

Absnt · 07-15-2011 11:28 PM

By the way:

Edit to avoid confusion: I don't necessarily believe communism or socialism is the best form of government, and I don't necessarily believe capitalism is the best form of economic governance. Either one could work, in my opinion, if some things were changed. I guess.

thewake · 07-15-2011 11:34 PM

Absentinsomniac Wrote:By the way:

Edit to avoid confusion: I don't necessarily believe communism or socialism is the best form of government, and I don't necessarily believe capitalism is the best form of economic governance. Either one could work, in my opinion, if some things were changed. I guess.

What you advocate isn't necessarily communism, in fact it's more akin to a sort of "market socialism." I just shudder at the idea of my food being grown by government.

A question:
How would we grow our food?

Absnt · 07-15-2011 11:41 PM

I guess there'd be an allocated amount of land for farms and what not... People would be hired to work them in exchange for the credits or whatever. I don't really know, I haven't really thought this plan through yet tbh... It's just an idea.

thewake · 07-15-2011 11:46 PM

Absentinsomniac Wrote:I guess there'd be an allocated amount of land for farms and what not... People would be hired to work them in exchange for the credits or whatever.

Who would hire them? Who owns these farms? The government?
Also, who decides how much to allocate? What man or group of men have enough foresight to know?

Quote:I don't really know, I haven't really thought this plan through yet tbh... It's just an idea.

I realize that, but we put our ideas out there and people criticize them, or support them. It's the "market place of ideas," one of the greatest hallmarks of free discourse.

I'm just trying to get a feel for what this government you are theorizing about, whether it will be harmful as a net effect or helpful.

Efs · 07-15-2011 11:48 PM

Weswammy Wrote:
Absentinsomniac Wrote:I guess there'd be an allocated amount of land for farms and what not... People would be hired to work them in exchange for the credits or whatever.
Who would hire them? Who owns these farms? The government?
Also, who decides how much to allocate? What man or group of men have enough foresight to know?

Common ownership?

thewake · 07-15-2011 11:49 PM

Efstratios Prime Wrote:
Weswammy Wrote:
Absentinsomniac Wrote:I guess there'd be an allocated amount of land for farms and what not... People would be hired to work them in exchange for the credits or whatever.
Who would hire them? Who owns these farms? The government?
Also, who decides how much to allocate? What man or group of men have enough foresight to know?
Common ownership?

Which in effect means ownership by a governing body of sorts, or a sort of Athenian direct democracy for farmers.

Absnt · 07-15-2011 11:53 PM

Weswammy Wrote:
Absentinsomniac Wrote:I guess there'd be an allocated amount of land for farms and what not... People would be hired to work them in exchange for the credits or whatever.

Who would hire them? Who owns these farms? The government?
Also, who decides how much to allocate? What man or group of men have enough foresight to know?

Fair enough, and those are tough questions. I guess the government would probably own them, but that doesn't really smooth my feathers either. They usually fuck shit up, although, with this type of system who else would own them? Maybe the whole system would be better off just having individual businesses run by civi's, and whoever wants to start a business in any field can... That's a lot like what we have now, though. Supply and demand would govern how much land to dictate, I guess.

I know for a fact that my friend I was talking this over with would rather have a government monopoly for everything, and the government would probably end up doing the math as to how much food needs produced for the population or some shit. But then, there wouldn't really be a huge diversity of food.

Efs · 07-15-2011 11:55 PM

Weswammy Wrote:
Efstratios Prime Wrote:
Weswammy Wrote:Who would hire them? Who owns these farms? The government?
Also, who decides how much to allocate? What man or group of men have enough foresight to know?
Common ownership?
Which in effect means ownership by a governing body of sorts, or a sort of Athenian direct democracy for farmers.

Being an anarchist, there wouldn't be a governing body.

Absnt · 07-15-2011 11:56 PM

That could probably work if this system was in place, but who would keep it in place?

Efs · 07-15-2011 11:58 PM

Absentinsomniac Wrote:That could probably work if this system was in place, but who would keep it in place?

That's the problem. I have a great system. But how would it stay in place? Well...everyone would have to think alike and be respectful. So only awesome people allowed.

HeartofShadows · 07-15-2011 11:59 PM

In IDcracy what would keep the government from becoming to powerful?

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