Compulsory schooling and Conscription: Modern day slavery

[ComradeDaryl]

Does anybody see here the similarities of how Conscription and Compulsory schooling are really slavery, and bare many similarities to slavery? A lot of countries still have conscription, and Conscription is in many ways, a form of slavery.

[brainiac3397]

You are aware in some communities conscription is a rite of passage.
Not sure slavery was ever a rite of passage.

[Cianna200]

I don't know much about conscription, but compulsory schooling sure is slavery.

1. You must go to school or there is punishment, even when you are suffering, you have no choice.

2. You must submit yourself to authority figures and do absolutely everything they tell you or there is punishment.

3. You can't get out until you are told.

4. Everything you learn must be in the adults' best interest, and everything you learn is controlled and totally up to them.

5. There is punishment for trying to fulfill your needs (if the adult didn't say so) that is essential for life like sleeping in class, using the bathroom without permission, eating when hungry etc.

6. There is punishment just for being late, or failing to do the work. (If you are punished/yelled at/ etc for not doing well, how can learning be desirable?

7. You must move to different classes at the ring of the bell, even if you didn't finish your work.

8. Fun is quite often discouraged.

9. If your parents don't want you to take an alternate, than you are trapped, and death could be the only way to escape, I have seen comments of people who see suicide as the way to end it all. Same with slavery and prison, your mind is beaten and battered to a pulp there too.

10. Children are treated more like tools than children.

[brainiac3397]

Come to think of it...I think we'd be better off not even bothering to make analogies. They're not always accurate and they're not always helpful.

[GamerGurl]

John Taylor Gatto has compared compulsory schooling to indentured servitude. I agree with him and I agree with you OP and Cianna, though idk what conscription is so I'll leave that part out.

[ComradeDaryl]

(11-06-2015 02:13 AM)brainiac3397 Wrote:  You are aware in some communities conscription is a rite of passage.
Not sure slavery was ever a rite of passage.

Conscription is prized by certain communities, as is compulsory schooling.

(11-06-2015 02:22 AM)Cianna200 Wrote:  I don't know much about conscription, but compulsory schooling sure is slavery.

1. You must go to school or there is punishment, even when you are suffering, you have no choice.

2. You must submit yourself to authority figures and do absolutely everything they tell you or there is punishment.

3. You can't get out until you are told.

4. Everything you learn must be in the adults' best interest, and everything you learn is controlled and totally up to them.

5. There is punishment for trying to fulfill your needs (if the adult didn't say so) that is essential for life like sleeping in class, using the bathroom without permission, eating when hungry etc.

6. There is punishment just for being late, or failing to do the work. (If you are punished/yelled at/ etc for not doing well, how can learning be desirable?

7. You must move to different classes at the ring of the bell, even if you didn't finish your work.

8. Fun is quite often discouraged.

9. If your parents don't want you to take an alternate, than you are trapped, and death could be the only way to escape, I have seen comments of people who see suicide as the way to end it all. Same with slavery and prison, your mind is beaten and battered to a pulp there too.

10. Children are treated more like tools than children.

Conscription is often times the same as this, except:
4. In the armchair general's/government's best interest.
6. The police will be looking for you if you don't show up for conscription, and you'll have to flee the country.
9. If you can't make an alternate route, such as fleeing the country, you'll either get arrested and/or death is another route. If the police are looking for you, you can literally fight them, and try to run off to distract them.

[TheCancer]

I think both are forms of slavery.

[Cianna200]

Geez, I think I would rather have school than that!

[TheCancer]

Slavery doesn't have to equivilate to American slavery of African Americans.

The point is, are you being forced by law to do work against your will.

[brainiac3397]

(11-06-2015 10:33 AM)TheCancer Wrote:  Slavery doesn't have to equivilate to American slavery of African Americans.

The point is, are you being forced by law to do work against your will.

For one, you can't sell a student or conscript.

The analogy that "X is slavery" is just as bad as "X is Nazism" or "X is like Hitler".

And what Americans did was slavery. It wasn't much different from other forms of slavery. Slavery is the idea that a person is property and can be utilized for labor and other purposes while lacking any rights and protections. The fact you can't sell a conscript and student, and that both still retain certain legal rights, is enough to invalidate the arguement that they're like slaves.

EDIT:By the way, many states allow teens(as young as 14 from what I've seen in a few states) to apply for emancipation assuming they can prove they can sustain themselves(so you'll obviously need a job).

[ComradeDaryl]

It's obvious though they are still very bad concepts, especially when using conscription to "defend freedom", is so contradictory. Conscription is in many ways worse than compulsory schooling can ever get, and at least 4 countries (Eritrea, Israel, Norway, and North Korea) conscript women.

[brainiac3397]

It isnt defend freedom as much as it is defend country (and conscription has the benefit of fostering national unity by forcing together people from different parts of the country together, thus "exposing" them to each other...assuming such an issue might exist.)

Its not exactly a bad concept if war breaks out and you've got an adult male (and female in some places) that has some degree of military training. Definitely easier than drafting total green soldiers who dont even know how to march.

And how is conscription worse than school? Most conscripts except in the more aggressive militant nations and Israel tend to do nothing more than train and then waste time on menial tasks. There is a common joke in Turkey that the guy with the electrical engineering degree will be given the impottant duty of ensuring the TV and remote works. Sure military training is harsh, but they still get paid, fed, dressed, and cared for their service. And there are many ways to seeking an exception (civil service duty, paying a fee, seeking an education often postpones AND I believe some make their college grads officers if they choose it which tends to be a bit more cozy).

In which case I believe this is a matter of cultural relativism in that you non-experience and beliefs prompt belief that conscription is bad whereas places like Switzerland have had 3 referendums in 25 years and each time the voters overwhelmingly chose to keep conscription.

And in Turkey the conscription seems to A)relieve the labor force of significant unemployed and unskilled young workers which is an issue in the region (a phenomenon where the younger labor force that didnt get a college education are stuck in a lurch and unable to land a job that isnt more of a deadend till some years of hard work). B)Turkey has an issue of regionalist bias where your province is an important matter. Sure in the US a new yorker might be perceived as hurried and rude by a Southerner, but being a new yorker isnt like some important social matter. In Turkey, your province pretty much serves as a big part od your social identity. Through conscription, this importance is diminshed because a new identity is forged (that of being a Turk in service of Turkey).

It may not be the BEST solution to things, but it works, and the people dont seem to be so harshly against it(minus the occassional anarchist, communist, and pacifist). Even then, there have been reforms in many of these countries so its not like some archaic British Empire style of conscription where the soldiers are worse than the street dogs.

[ComradeDaryl]

Conscription is not right for everybody, and "Defending the country"? Stop putting statist conformist rhetoric in our mouths. Mandatory military training is not for everyone(sorry if I am repeating), just like conscription. You don't seem to want to allow people do whatever they want unless it harms others', don't you?

Cultural relativism? Who cares, it's not like it's harming other human beings, their personal property, or the environment! It's not easy to assimilate into other cultures. Conscription is an awful idea just like compulsory schooling, and should never have to exist.

[GamerGurl]

Thank goodness there's no conscription in the US. There's no way in hell I'd join the military. It shares quite some similarities to school as well.

[schoolsux]

Fortunately, if the US ever has a draft, I can't be drafted, thanks to a diagnosis for autism.

[brainiac3397]

Who cares about cultural relativism? The neoliberals dont care and they're basically at the forefront of fucking over a whole bunch of countries because "their lives are awful and we as civilized Western America know exactly what they need!".

People do indeed exist who want to defend their country. It sure as hell isnt just statis rhetoric. On top of which...the US doesnt even have a mandatory req nor is it likely the need will ever arise unless another world war breaks out. Also, if the society accepts conscription for the most part, why is it wrong for it to exist? Obviously it exists because it was intended to serve as a solution to a national problem. Sure, there are accompanying disadvantages, but nobody is going to disassemble a system that works to some benefit because a bunch of pacifists and anarchists believe its a waste of money or believe its slavery.

Then again, its common for the antiestablismentary factions to lack a clear vision of what should be there instead. Its commonly that the target should cease to exist but nothing concrete proposed as the alternative or substitute. Its even worse with those who believe everything will be solved alright (in which case theyd be delusional because no human could ever calculate all the factors and variables to be affected by the drastic action).

Countries with conscription for the most part have been taking initiatives for reforming their system. The government isnt stupid. They usually know it costs money and conscripts are no substitute for full-time professionals (Turkey for example has hinted at a few times of abandoning the conscription to focus on a small but professional force. Unlikely to happen anytime soon with recent events, but clearly its on their minds). The Swiss held 3 referendums indicating some social interest in reform (albeit weak turnout and strong support meant each was a failure).

Israel probably will never end their conscription because clearly they have an interest in keeping a populace capable of being mobilized to action. Of course unless you believe its just harmful statist conformist rhetoric fueling conscription. Perhaps theyd be fine with conscription eh?

Clearly I am allowing people to do what they want. Im allowing people the freedom to exercise their sovereign rights as full-fledged citizens of the country which they reside in and call home. Its not the 18th-19th century anymore. Its clear to most countries that a conscript force, unless properly justified (or in cases of "crazier" states, heavily propagandized), will never be of sufficient quality and always be of greater cost to the state. Conscription often benefits nations unable to shrink their military or unable to afford better quality troops. Israel is beset on all sides by folk who would like to see em dead. The Swiss still believe that having a population with military training strengthens their neutrality. Turkey had economic problems as well as a decades of social problems stemming from political to ethnic (and now current events will probably make it remain longer). NK is just propaganda machine and being a soldier means you get fed. And so on.

Your suggestion on the other hand is that because its bad and like slavery, it should simply cease to exist because all conscription is the same (which would be absurd because a country chooses a policy of conscription for some reason). Of course you may continue insisting im just a lying statist who wants everyone to conform (which is amusingly inaccurate because as an American statist, Id prefer to uphold the ideals of the country and support the Constitution, both of which contribute as my substance of criticizing the govt and everything else...among other substances)

[ComradeDaryl]

(11-08-2015 02:04 PM)schoolsux Wrote:  Fortunately, if the US ever has a draft, I can't be drafted, thanks to a diagnosis for autism.

Well, that is likely to change, and women/LGBT won't be excluded this time. You can always go to Australia, Canada, Costa Rica, Iceland, New Zealand, or Panama if you want.

[Cianna200]

Ditto, my grandfather joined the military and keeps suggesting it to me.

[schoolsux]

(11-13-2015 02:54 AM)ComradeDaryl Wrote:  

(11-08-2015 02:04 PM)schoolsux Wrote:  Fortunately, if the US ever has a draft, I can't be drafted, thanks to a diagnosis for autism.

Well, that is likely to change, and women/LGBT won't be excluded this time. You can always go to Australia, Canada, Costa Rica, Iceland, New Zealand, or Panama if you want.

Canada, eh? Seems interesting, eh?

[brainiac3397]

And like I said, the US volunteer program is so successful, a draft will be completely unlikely unless we're in a very nasty war. In which case a draft would signal that there's a lot of dead soldiers and more are needed.(which means, again, that it's a very nasty conflict)

In which case fleeing might not exactly help(Costa Rica? Seriosuly? I'd avoid any central or south American nation...)

[schoolsux]

(11-13-2015 03:28 AM)brainiac3397 Wrote:  And like I said, the US volunteer program is so successful, a draft will be completely unlikely unless we're in a very nasty war. In which case a draft would signal that there's a lot of dead soldiers and more are needed.(which means, again, that it's a very nasty conflict)

In which case fleeing might not exactly help(Costa Rica? Seriosuly? I'd avoid any central or south American nation...)

You know what would? Suicide. Not suggesting it, but it's a get out of jail free card (with jail being the draft).

[brainiac3397]

So if something like WW3 broke out (an example of what would warrant a draft in the US), suicide would be the answer?

I have a feeling ya'll are seriously lacking knowledge of how the draft even works in the US.

Quote:WHEN THERE IS A DRAFT –

How to Apply: In general, once a man gets a notice that he has been found qualified for military service, he has the opportunity to make a claim for classification as a conscientious objector (CO). A registrant making a claim for conscientious objection is required to appear before his local board to explain his beliefs.

He may provide written documentation or include personal appearances by people he knows who can attest to his claims. His written statement might explain:

how he arrived at his beliefs; and
the influence his beliefs have had on how he lives his life.
The local board will decide whether to grant or deny a CO classification based on the evidence a registrant has presented. A man may appeal a local board's decision to a Selective Service district appeal board. If the appeal board also denies his claim, but the vote is not unanimous, he may further appeal the decision to the national appeal board.

WHO QUALIFIES?

Beliefs which qualify a registrant for CO status may be religious in nature, but don't have to be. Beliefs may be moral or ethical; however, a man’s reasons for not wanting to participate in a war must not be based on politics, expediency, or self-interest. In general, the man’s lifestyle prior to making his claim must reflect his current claims.

SERVICE AS A CONSCIENTIOUS OBJECTOR

Two types of service are available to conscientious objectors, and the type assigned is determined by the individual’s specific beliefs. The person who is opposed to any form of military service will be assigned to alternative service - described below. The person whose beliefs allow him to serve in the military but in a noncombatant capacity will serve in the Armed Forces but will not be assigned training or duties that include using weapons.

ALTERNATIVE SERVICE

Conscientious objectors opposed to serving in the military will be placed in the Selective Service Alternative Service Program. This program attempts to match COs with local employers. Many types of jobs are available, however the job must be deemed to make a meaningful contribution to the maintenance of the national health, safety, and interest. Examples of alternative service are jobs in:

conservation
caring for the very young or very old
education
health care
Length of service in the program will equal the amount of time a man would have served in the military, usually 24 months.