I feel the fight to keep Mein Kampf banned in Germany is a huge, huge mistake.

[WalterScottDempsey]

Those who do not learn history are doomed to repeat it, after all. To sweep this important book instead of it being a mandatory school read is just insanity to me. It's Hitler's fucking book and the people must be read it so they can understand why the atrocities happened and how to prevent them from happening, instead of pretending that those like the Nazis were supervillains that could never come again. How to prevent leaders like Hitler from coming to power.

[James Comey]

WTF?

Err............

Mandatory reading for it?

TBH I don't really care if it's banned or not. I don't think we need to unban Mein Kampf in order to teach an accurate history.... honestly we just need more in-depth history classes.

[James Comey]

Actually, a change of heart.

I think that, to an extent, I think some excerpts should be read (not the entire book though), particularly concepts like lebensarum, etc in order to gain the most accurate understanding of what the hell was going on in Nazi Germany, but only for historical purposes. But only to an extent. First-hand sources are generally the best.

[brainiac3397]

How about we do the simplest thing and stop banning books OR making them mandatory.

EDIT:Unless the book was created by the demon to assist him in tearing open a rift between our world and that of the demonic universe to invade and subjugate humanity. That book would then be banned and buried deep into some mountain cause it cant be destroyed(demonic magic) but should never be read.

[Ky]

The book itself is insanity - the first page pretty much says "We're going to band together, destroy those who beat us in the War, kill the Jews and inferior races, and make the Slavs our slaves." Trust me, anyone who's heard of it and knows who wrote it knows what's inside it, and shouldn't have to be bothered to read the ramblings of an evil madman.

History tells us why the atrocities happened; if anything, the book will just make you have sympathy for the despotic ruler whose regime resulted in the deaths of a dozen million people, if not more.

[James Comey]

Take note: I am not, in any way, condoning the book (HELL NO). I say that only some excerpts on important concepts should be read, in order to garner a decent understanding of what was going on. NO WAY do I advocate giving each student a copy of Mein Kampf.

[Ky]

Isn't that what Hitler did? I'm surprised no one bothered to read it, figure out that what he was saying was lunacy, and prevent him from getting a job in government. Then again, Germany was pretty desperate, at the time.

[James Comey]

And yeah, Mein Kampf was just absolute insanity. Nazism itself was built on insanity. North Korean Juche is pretty much partly descended from it arguably as well.

[brainiac3397]

We should read Mussolini instead. Good stuff.

[SoulRiser]

There's no need to ban the book... but also no need to require anyone to read it unless they actually want to.

[brainiac3397]

(06-02-2014 06:18 AM)SoulRiser Wrote:  There's no need to ban the book... but also no need to require anyone to read it unless they actually want to.

(06-02-2014 04:57 AM)brainiac3397 Wrote:  How about we do the simplest thing and stop banning books OR making them mandatory.

EDIT:Unless the book was created by the demon to assist him in tearing open a rift between our world and that of the demonic universe to invade and subjugate humanity. That book would then be banned and buried deep into some mountain cause it cant be destroyed(demonic magic) but should never be read.

I see you've taken to plagirism. SHAME ON YOU! TIS TIME TO WALK THE PLANK YOU LANDLUBBING YELLOW BELLY!

I hate the concept of banning books. Plus all it does is just fortify and amplify the ideal of said book. Mein Kampf would be more influential if it was banned completely.

[WalterScottDempsey]

(06-02-2014 04:59 AM)DoA Wrote:  The book itself is insanity - the first page pretty much says "We're going to band together, destroy those who beat us in the War, kill the Jews and inferior races, and make the Slavs our slaves." Trust me, anyone who's heard of it and knows who wrote it knows what's inside it, and shouldn't have to be bothered to read the ramblings of an evil madman.

History tells us why the atrocities happened; if anything, the book will just make you have sympathy for the despotic ruler whose regime resulted in the deaths of a dozen million people, if not more.

To educate people on those with personality disorders and hearts of hatred is simply invaluable. To be able to read the book of the man behind WW2 is just... It's indescribable. Just completely disturbing, troubling and, at the same time, fascinating. It also describes the conditions in which he rose to power. Those conditions cannot be allowed to occur again, yet they are. Especially in places like Greece and Hungary.

[James Comey]

(06-02-2014 10:04 AM)WalterScottDempsey Wrote:  

(06-02-2014 04:59 AM)DoA Wrote:  The book itself is insanity - the first page pretty much says "We're going to band together, destroy those who beat us in the War, kill the Jews and inferior races, and make the Slavs our slaves." Trust me, anyone who's heard of it and knows who wrote it knows what's inside it, and shouldn't have to be bothered to read the ramblings of an evil madman.

History tells us why the atrocities happened; if anything, the book will just make you have sympathy for the despotic ruler whose regime resulted in the deaths of a dozen million people, if not more.

To educate people on those with personality disorders and hearts of hatred is simply invaluable. To be able to read the book of the man behind WW2 is just... It's indescribable. Just completely disturbing, troubling and, at the same time, fascinating. It also describes the conditions in which he rose to power. Those conditions cannot be allowed to occur again, yet they are. Especially in places like Greece and Hungary.

Sadly, it seems you're partly right. There's been quite a massive rise in the far-right parties in France. Greece is moving far left, though.

Heh, that Putin guy, eh?

[thewake]

There's absolutely no justification for the banning of any book, peaceful political party, or symbol in any country. The censorship that goes on in Germany is absolutely ludicrous.

[James Comey]

Eh, the Germans really don't like Nazism. That entire country has done as much as it can to distance itself from Hitler and Nazism. Let the Germans do what they want to do, I say.

[thewake]

How is that any justification of such a blatant disregard for the inviolable principle of freedom of expression? Some rights are inviolable, and this is one of them. If the modern Neo-Nazi parties are peaceful, there is no reason to not allow them to speak and publish their ideas, as well as assemble and organize their movement. These are fundamental human rights, and Nazis aren't a special exception no matter how reprehensible their beliefs are.

[xcriteria]

(06-02-2014 04:57 AM)brainiac3397 Wrote:  How about we do the simplest thing and stop banning books OR making them mandatory.

(06-02-2014 06:18 AM)SoulRiser Wrote:  There's no need to ban the book... but also no need to require anyone to read it unless they actually want to.

I agree, banning books has a lot of disadvantages, while requiring reading of whole books does as well.

(06-02-2014 04:56 AM)Hansgrohe Wrote:  I think that, to an extent, I think some excerpts should be read (not the entire book though), particularly concepts like lebensarum, etc in order to gain the most accurate understanding of what the hell was going on in Nazi Germany, but only for historical purposes. But only to an extent. First-hand sources are generally the best.

I agree with this. The key is to provide context. Also, it's worth noting that a lot of young people are disaffected in part because of how school and family tends to work... and they end up with dark views that leads them to be drawn to various pre-packaged ideologies.

And that's one of the reasons people fear the spread of books that might appeal to those people. But, why not look at the underlying problem and find a better way to address it?

Plus, in the world of the Internet, it's really impossible to keep a book banned, if someone wants to get their hands on it, outside of a completely totalitarian regime like North Korea. (And even they're starting to have problems.)

That's a big issue with banning (or requiring) things in general: how many people will just circumvent the rules, anyway?

It's better, the way I see it, to seek to get people thinking about underlying intentions and goals. And, how can we all talk about a positive vision for the future? Ultimately, the lack of that, in many people's lives (and in many countries undergoing economic crises), is one of the things that leads people to extreme ideologies.

[James Comey]

(06-02-2014 12:28 PM)W Kuts Wrote:  How is that any justification of such a blatant disregard for the inviolable principle of freedom of expression? Some rights are inviolable, and this is one of them. If the modern Neo-Nazi parties are peaceful, there is no reason to not allow them to speak and publish their ideas, as well as assemble and organize their movement. These are fundamental human rights, and Nazis aren't a special exception no matter how reprehensible their beliefs are.

Eh TBH I wouldn't mind seeing modern Nazi movements being banned. Their ideology lead to the death of millions of people, so honestly they can go fuck themselves.

[thewake]

(06-02-2014 01:01 PM)Hansgrohe Wrote:  Eh TBH I wouldn't mind seeing modern Nazi movements being banned. Their ideology lead to the death of millions of people, so honestly they can go fuck themselves.

That doesn't refute the basic point. By that same logic, we shouldn't mind banning Catholicism because the Church inspired wars like the Crusades that killed millions. We shouldn't mind banning Marxist-Leninism and Maoism (including Mao's little red book) because communist regimes murdered millions (FYI Mao is likely the biggest murderer in human history, not Hitler).

And what about ideas that do lesser, but very real, damage? What about Christian Scientists and faith healers who may refuse medical treatment to their children due to their religious beliefs? Should these beliefs be banned, or maybe regulated? Who determines what beliefs are good and which ones are bad? Once we accept that there are exceptions to freedom of speech, particularly political and religious speech, we open up the door to infringements, to censorship, of ideas that authority believes is harmful. That thought smacks, funnily enough, of Nazism itself.

I say none of this to defend Nazism itself. Yes, they should go fuck themselves. It's an abhorrent ideology that smacks of everything I dislike. Socialism. Nationalism. Racism. I'm defending the principle of free speech, the idea that there should be a "marketplace of ideas" in which we are all free to choose what we believe, to disseminate these very same beliefs to the best of our ability, and meet and organize with people who share our beliefs (or debate people who hold beliefs inimical to our own).

[brainiac3397]

As far as I can tell, support for radical ideas doesnt increase unless there is instability somewhere in the nation, and it would require something of massive instability to really give them enough long-term traction to have any real influence in government.

So their existence is not an issue because simply existing does not mean they have power to do anything significant. Any attempts to "destroy" democracy on a smaller scale would not benefit them in any way as it would destroy their reputation in a nation as a whole and make them "enemies of the state" for their policies that might counter national law.

Thus, a radical party is never a danger unless they try for armed revolution, and today such an act would be a death blow to themselves since it would attract international involvement. Any illegitimately formed government has very little ability unless they have something better to offer to the international community(or to a big power that'd vouch for them).

So realistically speaking, it's doubtful a nazi party could ever hope to gain significant power in a democratic government, especially when it comes to western nations, without a massive watershed event that would garner support for them.

[(´・ω・`)]

Now all this said, I think the ideal approach would be to have the Bavarian government (who holds effectively perpetual copyright on the book) publish an annotated edition only available on request to people who can have their credentials and histories checked. There's not much you can really do to keep the Neo-Nazis from getting their illicit copies anyways, but for legitimate purposes of scholarship and history, I think this is the best way out.

[brainiac3397]

(06-03-2014 01:23 AM)Neue Wrote:  Now all this said, I think the ideal approach would be to have the Bavarian government (who holds effectively perpetual copyright on the book) publish an annotated edition only available on request to people who can have their credentials and histories checked. There's not much you can really do to keep the Neo-Nazis from getting their illicit copies anyways, but for legitimate purposes of scholarship and history, I think this is the best way out.

NEIN NEIN NEIN NEIN NEIN!

[thewake]

(06-03-2014 01:23 AM)Neue Wrote:  Now all this said, I think the ideal approach would be to have the Bavarian government (who holds effectively perpetual copyright on the book) publish an annotated edition only available on request to people who can have their credentials and histories checked. There's not much you can really do to keep the Neo-Nazis from getting their illicit copies anyways, but for legitimate purposes of scholarship and history, I think this is the best way out.

Wouldn't want any unauthorized people engaging in any thought crime, would we?

[brainiac3397]

All Neo-Nazis must get a free copy. MANDATORY!

And a discount on all Mussolini literature and goodies.