Veganism... The debate.

[gore goroth]

Quote:The thing is wasting resources is actually bad. Not everything shotgun says is completely retarded.

True, but sometimes people just overreact take this too far and act all "ZOMG YOUVE DOOMED US ALL!" just because I don't want to throw out my vehichle and buy an expensive tiny hybrid car.

[Aya]

(02-06-2012 04:03 PM)Jesusaurisrex Wrote:  Its better for you to eat vegan, the human body was not made to consume meat and meat was not even consumed by humans until the creation of sharp edged stone tools. Like evolution, this is undeniable fact.

Actually it's not. Like chimpanzees it's highly likely that our pre-tool making ancestors first got a taste for animal protien from eating bugs. But just because we evolved as omnivores doesn't mean we need to continue to eat meat. We've evolved to the point where we have enough technology and resources to live a vegarian lifestyle. If anything it's a sign of modernity to go veg,

[Jesusaurisrex]

(02-06-2012 04:07 PM)Aya Wrote:  

(02-06-2012 04:03 PM)Jesusaurisrex Wrote:  Its better for you to eat vegan, the human body was not made to consume meat and meat was not even consumed by humans until the creation of sharp edged stone tools. Like evolution, this is undeniable fact.

Actually it's not. Like chimpanzees it's highly likely that our pre-tool making ancestors first got a taste for animal protien from eating bugs. But just because we evolved as omnivores doesn't mean we need to continue to eat meat. We've evolved to the point where we have enough technology and resources to live a vegarian lifestyle. If anything it's a sign of modernity to go veg,

I meant it in the way of it becoming commonly introduced into the human diet, bugs have little, if any, cholesterol. Unlike meats. Regardless, I see the point.

[Stadium]

(02-06-2012 03:57 PM)gore goroth Wrote:  

(02-06-2012 03:25 PM)StadiumArcadium Wrote:  

(02-06-2012 03:23 PM)gore goroth Wrote:  I suppose I could see why you would start a vegetarian diet because one may think its more natural. Even though I don't really personally agree with it being more natural, just my opinion. If we only did what was natural we would live in caves so I think the natural argument is a bit silly anyway. I just always thought vegetables taste like shit and don't have half the protein except for a few exceptions. I also only feel like doing shit when I have the added protein of good hamburger or something. Ive also found as long as I have some excercise time during the day I don't get fat. It's not really that hard to do.

Yep you're healthy, all well and good
Oh wait there are millions of animals suffering, enduring pain worse than you've ever felt, and dying because people think eating meat is ok

Moralfaggy holier than thouness detected!!!
Did I say I support the cruelty of most of the meat industry? What about buying local? I think the animals should be killed in the least painful way possible and they should be free to roam. Ive known local farmers who let cows graze fairly freely. I also used to raise chickens and I didn't even use a fence to keep them in. Actually, free to roam chickens produce better eggs too because they have a better diet than factory raised ones. It's rediculous to turn into a veggie moralfag just because of a few big coorporations when there are other choices for where to get meat that don't involve animal torture.

I wouldn't call what I said a holier than thou attitude. I was stating a fact. If I said I don't eat meat; I am a better person than you, that would be holier than thou.

But since I eat meat too, all of my points are hypocritical.

[Stadium]

(02-06-2012 03:57 PM)gore goroth Wrote:  

(02-06-2012 03:25 PM)StadiumArcadium Wrote:  

(02-06-2012 03:23 PM)gore goroth Wrote:  I suppose I could see why you would start a vegetarian diet because one may think its more natural. Even though I don't really personally agree with it being more natural, just my opinion. If we only did what was natural we would live in caves so I think the natural argument is a bit silly anyway. I just always thought vegetables taste like shit and don't have half the protein except for a few exceptions. I also only feel like doing shit when I have the added protein of good hamburger or something. Ive also found as long as I have some excercise time during the day I don't get fat. It's not really that hard to do.

Yep you're healthy, all well and good
Oh wait there are millions of animals suffering, enduring pain worse than you've ever felt, and dying because people think eating meat is ok

Moralfaggy holier than thouness detected!!!
Did I say I support the cruelty of most of the meat industry? What about buying local? I think the animals should be killed in the least painful way possible and they should be free to roam. Ive known local farmers who let cows graze fairly freely. I also used to raise chickens and I didn't even use a fence to keep them in. Actually, free to roam chickens produce better eggs too because they have a better diet than factory raised ones. It's rediculous to turn into a veggie moralfag just because of a few big coorporations when there are other choices for where to get meat that don't involve animal torture.

I wouldn't call what I said a holier than thou attitude. I was stating a fact. If I said I don't eat meat; I am a better person than you, that would be holier than thou.

But since I eat meat too, all of my points are hypocritical.

[gore goroth]

Quote:How? I just provided you with evidence that vegarianism is more natural and better for the enviornment. Really gore, your comments are beginning to sound less like a debate and more like your attempt to justify your own lifestyle choices.

>Forgetting I simply said it's my opinion and forgetting there are two sides to this argument.
>Implying that it is a set in stone fact that vegitarianism is automatically the 100% best diet and other diets are blasphemy.

Quote:2. No, and fuck you for making such an arrogant generalization. while I think chicken houses are disgusting and barbaric I would never compare them to the plight of humans. everyone is free to make their own decisions. I get way more crap from my family for my diet choices than I could ever give to them.

>Sounding a lot like that supposed arrogant genralization that I made right now.

Quote:No, what's silly is the strawman you just used. Really gore think about what you just said. You're implying that just because somethings more natural that it must be primitive, and if it's primitive then it must be inferior to the modern way of life.

Is it natural to have a car? Is it natural to wear clothes? You draw the line where exactly?

[Stadium]

(02-06-2012 03:57 PM)gore goroth Wrote:  

(02-06-2012 03:25 PM)StadiumArcadium Wrote:  

(02-06-2012 03:23 PM)gore goroth Wrote:  I suppose I could see why you would start a vegetarian diet because one may think its more natural. Even though I don't really personally agree with it being more natural, just my opinion. If we only did what was natural we would live in caves so I think the natural argument is a bit silly anyway. I just always thought vegetables taste like shit and don't have half the protein except for a few exceptions. I also only feel like doing shit when I have the added protein of good hamburger or something. Ive also found as long as I have some excercise time during the day I don't get fat. It's not really that hard to do.

Yep you're healthy, all well and good
Oh wait there are millions of animals suffering, enduring pain worse than you've ever felt, and dying because people think eating meat is ok

Moralfaggy holier than thouness detected!!!
Did I say I support the cruelty of most of the meat industry? What about buying local? I think the animals should be killed in the least painful way possible and they should be free to roam. Ive known local farmers who let cows graze fairly freely. I also used to raise chickens and I didn't even use a fence to keep them in. Actually, free to roam chickens produce better eggs too because they have a better diet than factory raised ones. It's rediculous to turn into a veggie moralfag just because of a few big coorporations when there are other choices for where to get meat that don't involve animal torture.

I wouldn't call what I said a holier than thou attitude. I was stating a fact. If I said I don't eat meat; I am a better person than you, that would be holier than thou.

But since I eat meat too, all of my points are hypocritical.

[Jesusaurisrex]

oh lordy me I forgot to answer questions
1. Because its easier to control your diet, and better for you (argue that all you want, but science says you are wrong. Thinking otherwise is comparable to bible hardliners and their stance on evolution)
A. Once again, you can pretend like the meat industry is a stand up organization that will go out of its way to keep your meat clean and unadulterated, but its not
B. yes. and it is.
2. no, no, and no. I just consider people who eat meat weak willed, and weak minded. Morals have nothing to do with it and never should.

Although if you would like to address morals, the animals are killed in horrible, brutal, unnecessary and unclean ways. Quite frankly I don't care as long as I don't have to witness it firsthand, but far too often I see bacon and wonder how much it screamed while they strung it up and cut its guts out, and the idea of eating the poor thing is plain and simple... unsettling.

My beef is more over my own health and the health of everyone else around me

[gore goroth]

(02-06-2012 04:03 PM)Jesusaurisrex Wrote:  Its better for you to eat vegan, the human body was not made to consume meat and meat was not even consumed by humans until the creation of sharp edged stone tools. Like evolution, this is undeniable fact.

Smells ad homineim in here now. Are stone tools natural? Where do you draw the line at natural/unnatural?

Excactly why I think the whole natural/unnatural argument is stupid.

Quote:A. Once again, you can pretend like the meat industry is a stand up organization that will go out of its way to keep your meat clean and unadulterated, but its not

>Obviously tl;dr'ed most of my posts in this thread.

[Prince Rilian]

I think natural/unnatural is bullshit too.

[Stadium]

(02-06-2012 04:44 PM)Prince Rilian Wrote:  I think natural/unnatural is bullshit too.

[Jesusaurisrex]

(02-06-2012 04:40 PM)gore goroth Wrote:  Smells ad homineim in here now. Are stone tools natural? Where do you draw the line at natural/unnatural?

Excactly why I think the whole natural/unnatural argument is stupid.

What the shit are you talking about, stone tools are not natural in any way, shape or form. Humans evolved without tools to eat meat, and as such our stomachs never evolved an effective way of digesting meat. This is indisputable fact, and to call it "ad homineim" is is fucking retarded. Its not a "durp more natrual" thing, its simple science. Its better for you because you evolved without things like cholesterol in your diet for hundreds of thousands of years

Quote:Obviously tl;dr'ed most of my posts in this thread

I like how you called my argument strawman, then immediately followed it by this

[gore goroth]

(02-06-2012 04:55 PM)StadiumArcadium Wrote:  

(02-06-2012 04:44 PM)Prince Rilian Wrote:  I think natural/unnatural is bullshit too.

MFW that has been this thread the entire time^^
MFW I didn't really intend to start the epic shitstorm over the natural part.
MFW my post about my meat-eating lifestyle was just an wellitsjustlikemyopinionman.jpg and I even said just my humble opinion but everyone looses their shit and acts like I just wrote the bible and they are a bunch of super-atheists and fuck it Ima forced to counter-shitstorm this to defend my opinion anyway.
MFW Aya and Jesusrex are acting like vegetarianism is master race diet and that is 100% undisputable by all scientists and won't even look at the other side of this.
MFW the two mentioned above probably didn't watch the first video I posted, but sound so much like Onision.

[Efs]

(02-06-2012 03:31 PM)StadiumArcadium Wrote:  

(02-06-2012 03:30 PM)Efs Wrote:  

(02-06-2012 03:27 PM)StadiumArcadium Wrote:  

(02-06-2012 03:25 PM)Efs Wrote:  Animals kill other animals.
Vegetarians/Vegans, your arguments are invalid.

They kill other animals for survival. We kill animals for indulgence even though we have no need to.
Also, we kill animals in the millions, painfully, inhumanely, cruelly. Use whatever word you want.

However I do disagree with the meat industry being quite cruel, I can't do shit about it. If I could I would prefer a nice clean kill and the animal to be treated properly in perfect conditions. But it's all about maximizing profit and minimizing costs isn't it?
Welcome to the harsh world.

So you know it's wrong, you know the way they treat the animals is awful, yet you do it anyway because "that's just how it is"

However I do the same thing so.

Question yourself before you question me

(02-06-2012 04:44 PM)Prince Rilian Wrote:  I think natural/unnatural is bullshit too.

It's bullshit because EVERYTHING AND ANYTHING THAT EXISTS IS NATURAL ITSELF.

(02-06-2012 04:29 PM)Jesusaurisrex Wrote:  I just consider people who eat meat weak willed, and weak minded.

What faggot?

WALLS OF QUOTES AND TEXT

K FAGGOTS
MEAT IS NOT NECESSARY, BUT IS HEALTHY IF CONSUMED IN SMALL-MODERATE AMOUNTS. END DEBATE K BYE

[Prince Rilian]

ouch big words hurt my ears

[Jesusaurisrex]

(02-06-2012 05:15 PM)Efs Wrote:  

(02-06-2012 04:29 PM)Jesusaurisrex Wrote:  I just consider people who eat meat weak willed, and weak minded.

What faggot?

YOU HEARD ME FAGUT

[gore goroth]

Quote:I like how you called my argument strawman, then immediately followed it by this

Quote: Obviously tl;dr'ed most of my posts in this thread

Because if you read my posts, you would have read the part where I said. I don't support that the way bigger meat coorporations torture animals.

[Stadium]

(02-06-2012 05:23 PM)gore goroth Wrote:  

Quote:I like how you called my argument strawman, then immediately followed it by this

Quote: Obviously tl;dr'ed most of my posts in this thread

Because if you read my posts, you would have read the part where I said. I don't support that the way bigger meat coorporations torture animals.

But by eating the meat they make you do support it.

[gore goroth]

(02-06-2012 05:27 PM)StadiumArcadium Wrote:  

(02-06-2012 05:23 PM)gore goroth Wrote:  

Quote:I like how you called my argument strawman, then immediately followed it by this

Quote: Obviously tl;dr'ed most of my posts in this thread

Because if you read my posts, you would have read the part where I said. I don't support that the way bigger meat coorporations torture animals.

But by eating the meat they make you do support it.

Why I said local farm/ranch raised is better then the stuff you get at mcdonalds. Not ALL meat comes from massive coorporate prison farms. Just watch where you buy.

[gore goroth]

(02-06-2012 05:15 PM)Efs Wrote:  

(02-06-2012 03:31 PM)StadiumArcadium Wrote:  

(02-06-2012 03:30 PM)Efs Wrote:  

(02-06-2012 03:27 PM)StadiumArcadium Wrote:  

(02-06-2012 03:25 PM)Efs Wrote:  Animals kill other animals.
Vegetarians/Vegans, your arguments are invalid.

They kill other animals for survival. We kill animals for indulgence even though we have no need to.
Also, we kill animals in the millions, painfully, inhumanely, cruelly. Use whatever word you want.

However I do disagree with the meat industry being quite cruel, I can't do shit about it. If I could I would prefer a nice clean kill and the animal to be treated properly in perfect conditions. But it's all about maximizing profit and minimizing costs isn't it?
Welcome to the harsh world.

So you know it's wrong, you know the way they treat the animals is awful, yet you do it anyway because "that's just how it is"

However I do the same thing so.

Question yourself before you question me

(02-06-2012 04:44 PM)Prince Rilian Wrote:  I think natural/unnatural is bullshit too.

It's bullshit because EVERYTHING AND ANYTHING THAT EXISTS IS NATURAL ITSELF.

(02-06-2012 04:29 PM)Jesusaurisrex Wrote:  I just consider people who eat meat weak willed, and weak minded.

What faggot?

WALLS OF QUOTES AND TEXT

K FAGGOTS
MEAT IS NOT NECESSARY, BUT IS HEALTHY IF CONSUMED IN SMALL-MODERATE AMOUNTS. END DEBATE K BYE

Efs star poster of this thread.

[Stadium]

Regardless of where you buy it, or how humanely the animals were treated, my stance on it is the same
It's unnecessary killing. It's better to avoid it completely, rather than contribute to the slaughtering of innocent animals. If we needed to eat them to survive, it would be different. But we don't.

[UnschoolShqiponjë]

I had a burger, chicken tenders, buffalo wings, and beef empenadas today.

Oh and stadium I am a unique snowflake. I am also beautiful. So stop hatin. Bwahahahahahaha!

[Efs]

CHICKEN DIPPAHHHZZZ

[SaintVicious]

Stop liking things I don't like.

[Aya]

gore goroth Wrote:>Forgetting I simply said it's my opinion and forgetting there are two sides to this argument.

opinion =/= argument. An opinion is a set belief not based on fact but instead on personal feeling. Arguments have to be supported by evidence. Either you have an opinion against vegetarianism or you have an argument. And based on the lack of evidence on your part, as well as the refusal to acknowledge mine, you have an opinion.

Quote:>Implying that it is a set in stone fact that vegetarianism is automatically the 100% best diet and

I never implied anything, I proved my point with facts

Quote:other diets are blasphemy.

Lolno. Made it very clear I my first post that I respect peoples eating choices. It's other people who don't respect mine.

Quote:

Quote:2. No, and fuck you for making such an arrogant generalization. while I think chicken houses are disgusting and barbaric I would never compare them to the plight of humans. everyone is free to make their own decisions. I get way more crap from my family for my diet choices than I could ever give to them.

>Sounding a lot like that supposed arrogant genralization that I made right now.

Where in that statement did I make a generalization? Your the one who compared me to a PETA freak and implied that because im vegetarian i must hold animals higher than humans. Seriously gore I'm starting to get fed up with your bullshit.

Quote:Is it natural to have a car? Is it natural to wear clothes? You draw the line where exactly?

Don't compare apples and oranges. There is a big difference between wearing clothes and eating meat. Clothing protects you from the elements and there is no alternative, past or present, to wearing clothes. Even our ancestors wore animal skins.

Meat on the other hand is not necessary. You are not one of hunter gatherers that shotgun is so fond of. You're not in a constant state of relocation. You're not constantly in an active search for food. You don't need the protein and fat it provides, you have the ability to get those nutrients elsewhere. As I mentioned earlier, vegetarianism is not a throw back to the past, it's a modern phenomenon. Just because it's more natural than meat eating doesn't make it any less modern.

And actually there are people out there who refuse to drive cars. They bike, walk and only use public transport for long hails. Once again just because it's more natural doesn't mean it's primitive.

You're rejection of vegetarianism because "itsmore natural so it must therefore be inferior to man made practices" seriously concerns me. Not just because it's logically unsound but because it makes you sound alot like a sheeple.

[Aya]

gore goroth Wrote:MFW my post about my meat-eating lifestyle was just an wellitsjustlikemyopinionman.jpg and I even said just my humble opinion but everyone looses their shit and acts like I just wrote the bible and they are a bunch of super-atheists and fuck it Ima forced to counter-shitstorm this to defend my opinion anyway.

That's called a debate son. What did you think was going to happen when you posted this thread? That we were all going to pat you on the back and agree with you? And if you truly though "well it's just my opinion" you would've never sought defend it the way you did. Opinions are based on emotion, they don't require evidence to support them. But the moment you throw your opinion into a debate and treat it as an argument you now have an obligation to defend that opinion with fact.

Quote:MFW Aya and Jesusrex are acting like vegetarianism is master race diet and that is 100% undisputable by all scientists and won't even look at the other side of this.

What other side, you haven't provided me with another side! All you've don't is thrown your opinion, a couple amazing atheist videos, and a shit load of logical fallacies at me and called it 'the other side'. You really expect me to accept this steaming pile of shit on equal footing with scientific research!?

Fuck you and welcome to my list.

[Miller0700]

(02-06-2012 03:27 PM)StadiumArcadium Wrote:  

(02-06-2012 03:25 PM)Efs Wrote:  Animals kill other animals.
Vegetarians/Vegans, your arguments are invalid.

They kill other animals for survival. We kill animals for indulgence even though we have no need to.
Also, we kill animals in the millions, painfully, inhumanely, cruelly. Use whatever word you want.

That's not always the case.

And yes, some humans do eat meat to survive. Not in this civilized society (Obvously) we live in but elsewhere.

I'm not saying that we should suddenly switch to eat to meat, but there are times where you must kill to survive. I don't like it as much you do, but it happens.

[SaintVicious]

Meanwhile in Africa. Dem first world problems

[Miller0700]

(02-07-2012 12:19 AM)Aya Wrote:  opinion =/= argument. An opinion is a set belief not based on fact but instead on personal feeling. Arguments have to be supported by evidence. Either you have an opinion against vegetarianism or you have an argument. And based on the lack of evidence on your part, as well as the refusal to acknowledge mine, you have an opinion.

that.

[SaintVicious]

Spicy chicken sandwich. I win morally spiritually and physically