There is no god.

[Amortisatie]

We have people who believe in a god on SS?

Not to offend anyone, but i thought we were all somewhat intelligent here.

[Prince Rilian]

I'm done talking to jonno because he is apparently irredeemably evil. He doesn't see that punishment is a tool of coercion and he thinks it's ok to beat children. Fuck him.

Also he's an idiot.

[Aya]

Amortisatie Wrote:We have people who believe in a god on SS?

Not to offend anyone, but i thought we were all somewhat intelligent here.

I believe in God. I just don't believe in proslytizing to anonymous strangers on the interet. Or in real life for that matter.

[Nah]

I'm not gonna force my beliefs on anyone either, but I will discuss them with anyone who is interested, or defend them if anyone wants to argue about them.

Rillian, I don't mean to upset you or anything. But if you hold the position that punishment is ALWAYS a tool of coercion and using physical discipline as a last resort is always evil and negative, I'd like to see some proof.

[Aya]

Jonno Wrote:I'm not gonna force my beliefs on anyone either, but I will discuss them with anyone who is interested, or defend them if anyone wants to argue about them.

Well clearly dude, no one here is interested. How many pages of intellectual ass rape it takes for you to figure that out?

[Nah]

Rilian seemed to like arguing there, so did psychopath and absentinsomniac. As long as they are happy to keep arguing, I am.

[psychopath]

Quote:How do we know anything historically? There is no "scientific" proof that Lincoln was the president. We cannot recreate him in a laboratory or bring him back to life. We cannot reproduce the experiment. We cannot calculate an equation that tells us that he was. But we can assert with a high degree of probability that Lincoln was indeed our president and was assassinated in 1865. We do this by appealing to historical evidence. Many people saw Lincoln. We have some of his writings and even his picture, not to mention his likeness on our pennies. But none of this "proves", in a scientific sense, that Lincoln ever lived or was the president.

Difference is that a person called Lincoln being president is much more likely to be true than a guy sitting up on the clouds enjoying his supernatural existence.

Even if the "historical evidence" was sound, that's still not enough. Jesus could still be an alien or something. You may as well believe australian aboriginal dreamtime is historical fact.

Spell it out for me, in your own words, start off with your premises and make a conclusion. If you can't logically prove god is real then I don't see the point in believing in him. Making wild claims like "We do not own ourselves. God designed every aspect of us. He made every atom in your body. He put it together in a way that results in you. I think complete conscious creation pretty much entails ownership" really isn't proof of his existence.

ps Go on some philospher sites and see how they set out their arguments, very clear and logical. You don't need a photo of god to prove he is real, you can prove it logically, but just saying "look at the historical evidence" isn't enough.

[LightAbyssion]

Jonno Wrote:I'm not gonna force my beliefs on anyone either, but I will discuss them with anyone who is interested, or defend them if anyone wants to argue about them.

Rillian, I don't mean to upset you or anything. But if you hold the position that punishment is ALWAYS a tool of coercion and using physical discipline as a last resort is always evil and negative, I'd like to see some proof.

I'll assume you're discluding any kinky sexual activities when discussing punishment. You don't ask for "proof" when discussing morals. However, people do suffer under punishment, that's a fact. It's up to you to decide if that's an 'evil' act.

I won't debate about God, because you're outnumbered enough. Some think life makes more sense without God. Others believe it's simpler to just claim everything is a result of God. Either way, humans only believe what we want to believe. Your truth could be a lie in another's reality.

P.S. I enjoyed reading though this topic. A few of you are really good with words. Much more mature than other religious "debates" found on YouTube.

[Mondasin]

Sasayaki Wrote:BC= Before Christ
AD= After Death

Before Christ / Anno Domini
Anno Domini is a think latin for "Year of the lord" basicly meaning that we are 2011 years into the Christian Era.

A previous post said something about god showing up about 2000 years ago, but we nailed him to a couple of 2x4's, which really speaks to discredit any thoughts of this "god" having any real power other than healing/returning to a physical body after death.

Also how are we sure that the entire bible isn't a series of stories that a Fiction writer through togather based on actually happenings given divine explanations. Hell there was a "great flood" just some 400 fucking year old guy didn't build a boat to hold between 2-9 of each animal, some king rode a barge down a river to safety after the river flooded over 20 feet above the levee's.

[aaaaaaasd]

Can't we all just stop fighting and smoke weed erryday or something

[Sasayaki]

Alright, talking about miracles and history is no argument to someone who is deliberately, and on principle, an atheist. If you refuse to even consider the possibility of God then you aren't even giving the stand of atheist much credibility or truthfulness. I think our arguments that God's real have been good enough so you cannot deny the possibility.

Mondasin Wrote:Also how are we sure that the entire bible isn't a series of stories that a Fiction writer through togather based on actually happenings given divine explanations. Hell there was a "great flood" just some 400 fucking year old guy didn't build a boat to hold between 2-9 of each animal, some king rode a barge down a river to safety after the river flooded over 20 feet above the levee's.

There are the Dead Sea Scrolls. They were found in this underground cave near the Dead Sea and some small Israeli settlement in the 1950's. They dated to be in between 150 BCE to 70 CE the oldest known surviving copies of Biblical and extra-biblical documents preserved, they didn't have paper than and it was really expensive to get materials that would last a long time so it's really rare to find anything but copies.

Ayliana Wrote:I believe in God. I just don't believe in proslytizing to anonymous strangers on the interet. Or in real life for that matter.

Why? They're liable to go to hell if they continue to not believe and heedlessly sin. Don't you want to see your atheistic friends after you die too in heaven not hell?

[psychopath]

Quote:Why? They're liable to go to hell if they continue to not believe and heedlessly sin. Don't you want to see your atheistic friends after you die too in heaven not hell?

ahahaha what a faggot. Did you know you're a faggot?

Sasayaki Wrote:Alright, talking about miracles and history is no argument to someone who is deliberately, and on principle, an atheist. If you refuse to even consider the possibility of God then you aren't even giving the stand of atheist much credibility or truthfulness. I think our arguments that God's real have been good enough so you cannot deny the possibility.

Well if you're referring to me I'm not an athiest, but believing in god is like believing there's a civilisation of fairies living in antarctica.

I'm still waiting for proof btw, if you guys are so sure god is real then why can't you prove it to me? Is it because you believe in something there is no evidence for?

[Sasayaki]

psychopath Wrote:Well if you're referring to me I'm not an athiest, but believing in god is like believing there's a civilisation of fairies living in antarctica.

I'm still waiting for proof btw, if you guys are so sure god is real then why can't you prove it to me? Is it because you believe in something there is no evidence for?

Read. My. Above. Post. Dead. Sea. Scroll. Very. Very. Old. Evidence.

To all this talk about punishment: Adam and Eve broke the big only rule, got themselves kicked out, and made sin, sorrow, and death come into the world. To let them back in God made a covenant with Abraham were they could get back into heaven by following certain rules. Because not sinning was very difficult for the Jews he decided the only sacrifice big enough to purify them so they could be with him in eternity was Jesus, God in the form of man while still having his divinity and committing no sin, as a sacrifice to make up for all of humanity's sins because it was the perfect sacrifice. [Jews used to offer sacrifices like lambs and birds to God in reparation for their sins]
He paid the price for our sins, which is "eternal" damnation. Perhaps we might look at it this way. If I was 10 years old and got into trouble with bullies and they were contemplating stabbing me to death because I stole something from them, my father would come and pay off those bullies so that I wouldn't be killed (eternal damnation). My father would have "paid in full" the debt I owe. I would owe nothing. But when I got home, my father would probably give me some consequences, not because he hated me or because I owed him a debt, but because he loved me. He's paid off the debt but we need to do what He asks in return: seek His kingdom and try to not sin. It's about discipline to help us fulfill what He asks for in return.

[psychopath]

No, I'm still waiting for my proof. If you can't format it into your own argument then you have nothing. When Einstein published his paper he didn't say "hey man there's proof everywhere, just go google these scrolls lolol", he had to show what the hell he was talking about. And historical evidence is not enough, believe it or not. Which is your problem not mine.

Use the scrolls as a part of your argument, but it's not your argument.

[Sasayaki]

Wow, if historical evidence doesn't cut it to show something's real what does? Do you want me to physically go to your house and just state God is real? Is that what it would take to show that God's more probable than Antarctica? If evidence won't change your mind and I can't use arguments that have been said before or connect them to form my own what proof is there to prove anything on those basises?

[psychopath]

Sasayaki Wrote:Wow, if historical evidence doesn't cut it to show something's real what does? Do you want me to physically go to your house and just state God is real? Is that what it would take to show that God's more probable than Antarctica? If evidence won't change your mind and I can't use arguments that have been said before or connect them to form my own what proof is there to prove anything on those basises?

Don't whine to me you fucking faggot, the burden of proof is on you, it's your problem not mine. If historical sources said harry potter is real that doesn't make it so, because it's more likely there's another explanation than wizards flying on broomsticks.

If you can't come up with proof then don't go around making wild claims and telling people they will go to hell.

[Sasayaki]

Did you actually read any of mine or Jonno's posts? There are good reasons there why God exists if you don't believe after all this the burden's not on me because I gave you a lot of proof you just decided to disregard it.
Since you don't believe in God, how about you show me proof He doesn't exist.

[psychopath]

Sasayaki Wrote:Since you don't believe in God, how about you show me proof He doesn't exist.

OH WOWWOOW. LOL. I don't think I even have to respond to that.

Quote:Did you actually read any of mine or Jonno's posts?

Yes, they were mostly extremely wild claims like "God designed every aspect of us". I'm still waiting for an argument for god. If you think have solid historical evidence, use that in your argument.

[jose]

What I see right now is people just fighting and going nowhere.

I am really bothered by the fact that some people on this site claim to be "open minded" and yet they only listen to physical proof. The truth is, if you are trying to prove if god exists with only scientific evidence then guess what? you are never going to find anything. On the other hand, If you actually try something spiritual, like doing good deeds and praying (these two are the most important) you will find something. The reason why most of you probably never saw any visions or miracles was because you and/or your family prayed alot, but never did good deeds. You cannot be a real christian, muslim, hindu, etc if you don't keep a good balance between these two very important things.

[psychopath]

jose Wrote:The truth is, if you are trying to prove if god exists with only scientific evidence then guess what? you are never going to find anything,

Exactly. Which should really make you ask yourself, "Why wont we find anything? Maybe he isn't real in the first place?" If you can't find evidence for something...then maybe it doesn't exist.

Quote:What I see right now is people just fighting and going nowhere.

I'm just waiting for an argument for god, I still haven't received any.

[Sasayaki]

psychopath Wrote:

Sasayaki Wrote:Since you don't believe in God, how about you show me proof He doesn't exist.

OH WOWWOOW. LOL. I don't think I even have to respond to that.

Quote:Did you actually read any of mine or Jonno's posts?

Yes, they were mostly extremely wild claims like "God designed every aspect of us". I'm still waiting for an argument for god. If you think have solid historical evidence, use that in your argument.

You don't? You know I am going to take it as you cannot think of one reason.

[psychopath]

Sasayaki Wrote:

psychopath Wrote:

Sasayaki Wrote:Since you don't believe in God, how about you show me proof He doesn't exist.

OH WOWWOOW. LOL. I don't think I even have to respond to that.

Quote:Did you actually read any of mine or Jonno's posts?

Yes, they were mostly extremely wild claims like "God designed every aspect of us". I'm still waiting for an argument for god. If you think have solid historical evidence, use that in your argument.

You don't? You know I am going to take it as you cannot think of one reason.

ahahahahahaha. No I am absolutely not going to respond to it. Because it's so ridiculous it's like arguing with a 2 year old. You're telling me to prove god doesn't exist, wow.

[jose]

psychopath Wrote:

jose Wrote:The truth is, if you are trying to prove if god exists with only scientific evidence then guess what? you are never going to find anything,

Exactly. Which should really make you ask yourself, "Why wont we find anything? Maybe he isn't real in the first place?" If you can't find evidence for something...then maybe it doesn't exist.

You have misunderstood me. Yes, I said that there is no scientific evidence for god, but that doesn't mean he doesn't exist. I said that people find their proofs for god in their spirituality which is the opposite of science. If all religious texts say gods are spirits, then why would you even think that you would find evidence for god in physical science.

[Cilaos]

Quote:Read. My. Above. Post. Dead. Sea. Scroll. Very. Very. Old. Evidence.

This man speaks truth, the Holy Bible is the true and honest holy book and all other religions are lies, I know this because the Bible says so.

Quote:Adam and Eve broke the big only rule, got themselves kicked out, and made sin, sorrow, and death come into the world.
To let them back in God made a covenant with Abraham were they could get back into heaven by following certain rules.

Of course, God makes the rules, and we all follow them because God is bigger and stronger than us and will beat us up and take our lunch money if we don't send us to Hell to burn forever and ever because he's just so infinitely loving and kind to his children.

And God says that it's proper to punish people for things their relatives do, that's why I'm typing this from a maximum security prison, my cousin just HAD to shoot that cop in the face.

Quote:Because not sinning was very difficult for the Jews

An angel walked the earth, but you killed him, you KILLED HIM YOU BASTARDS!
MAY SATAN GIVE HIS WORST TORMENTS TO ALL WHO IMPEDED THIS DIVINE MAN'S WORK!

Quote:he decided the only sacrifice big enough to purify them so they could be with him in eternity was Jesus, God in the form of man while still having his divinity and committing no sin, as a sacrifice to make up for all of humanity's sins because it was the perfect sacrifice. [Jews used to offer sacrifices like lambs and birds to God in reparation for their sins

You see people, God is infinitely forgiving, but he's not THAT infinitely forgiving, we always need MORE BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD, just some animals writhing in pain as they're being burned alive is enough to earn his endless mercy on most things, but God needed to sacrifice himself to himself so that he could make himself forgive us for breaking rules that he made himself.

Quote:He paid the price for our sins, which is "eternal" damnation. Perhaps we might look at it this way. If I was 10 years old and got into trouble with bullies and they were contemplating stabbing me to death because I stole something from them, my father would come and pay off those bullies so that I wouldn't be killed (eternal damnation).

You people need to understand how horrible crucifixion was, and though many many people face the torture and being put on the cross and Jesus only stayed on the cross for hours while most people lived for days before they got to die, he still had such a horrible death even by the standards of his day.

And don't even bring up that crap about Judas being prophesied to betray Jesus and how that goes again free will and how Jesus went to chillax in heaven after but Judas was sent to Hell to face the worst punishments ever devised forever for something he had no choice in, and that that makes Judas's sacrifice far greater far greater than Jesus's, because that argument doesn't work because the Bible says "Judas bad - Jesus good".

Quote:My father would have "paid in full" the debt I owe. I would owe nothing. But when I got home, my father would probably give me some consequences, not because he hated me or because I owed him a debt, but because he loved me. He's paid off the debt but we need to do what He asks in return: seek His kingdom and try to not sin. It's about discipline to help us fulfill what He asks for in return.

Once more, God makes the rules, and Moses agreed to them for us, no you can't opt out of the A-B Heaven-Hell thing altogether because fuck you, this isn't a democracy, anything you have to say, some old dude from thousands of years ago can say for you.

God may be all powerful, but you're stupid if you think he's just an incredibly intolerant asshole who likes lording his power over people, and there's no chance that he could conveivably be wrong about anything, because he's God and he say's he can't be wrong, so he's right.

[HeartofShadows]

Uncle zherny I loled so hard!

[psychopath]

jose Wrote:Yes, I said that there is no scientific evidence for god, but that doesn't mean he doesn't exist.

If there is no scientific evidence for something, there is no reason to believe it's true. If "spirits" are real, then they will have some sort of scientific evidence for them out there. Until you find it, there's no reason to believe in them.

Quote:I said that people find their proofs for god in their spirituality which is the opposite of science. .

What? Proof has to be logical, otherwise it's bs. Also notice I'm saying logic instead of science because people associate science with too many things.

Quote:If all religious texts say gods are spirits, then why would you even think that you would find evidence for god in physical science

Look, you seem to believe spirits are somehow exempt from logic. If you can't find evidence for it, then you are wasting your time believing in it. You may as well believe Harry Potter is a true story. Just do it. Be consistent and start believing Harry Potter is rea..

[jose]

psychopath Wrote:If there is no scientific evidence for something, there is no reason to believe it's true. If "spirits" are real, then they will have some sort of scientific evidence for them out there. Until you find it, there's no reason to believe in them.

Why would they have to have scientific evidence? According to most spiritual people, the universe is separated by the "physical plane" and the "spiritual plane." spirits are not made up of materials so they can't leave physical evidence.

I believe you are talking about the spirits with powers like god,saints, or angels. There is some physical things they leave behind. For example, In the apparition of the Lady of Guadeloupe, the tilma from st Juan had a image of her. It was made of simple materials but it still has survived today and hasn't been damaged one bit.

[Nah]

I agree there isn't any scientific evidence. We can't devise an experiment to test God. But I think there is historical evidence and logical evidence.

Tacitus tells of Jesus being brutally executed, and his followers dieing in similar ways (Annals 15.44)

Flavius Josephus, a Jewish historian, one of the least likely people to consider Jesus the messiah said this

Quote:"Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day."

The Babylonian Talmud confirms that he was executed on the eve of Passover for practicing sorcery and encouraging Jewish apostasy

Quote:On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, 'He is going forth to be stoned because he has practised sorcery and enticed Israel to apostacy

In addition to this, the earliest copies of some of the New Testament date to only 40 years after Jesus died. They are almost exactly identical to the ones we use now, with the occasional grammar error (Christ Jesus instead of Jesus Christ in one example). Even if you only believe the part of the gospels which tell of the 12 apostles following Jesus' for 3 years, then this adds a lot of weight to my argument. According to various execution records, they were all executed for their beliefs, except for John, who was exiled to Patmos. Jesus obviously thought that he was God, or he would have renounced his claims before he was killed. So he was either right or insane. But these men who followed him also believed him, to the point where they were willing to die for him.

Another apostle, Paul, was originally a devout Jew, who would go around executing Christians. When he was on his way to another city to execute them, Acts tells us that Jesus appeared to him. Thanks to this, he has written more books of the New Testament than anyone else.

The Gospel of Luke was written by a historian. Theophilus, a wealthy Roman official, payed Luke, a medical doctor, to compile a history of the life of Jesus to determine whether his disciples had anything to back up their claims. Luke, who would have been a pretty bright guy, then wrote Luke and Acts, making him the primary contributor to the New Testament when it comes to actual words.

[LOON_ATTIC]

Uncle Zherny Wrote:

Quote:Read. My. Above. Post. Dead. Sea. Scroll. Very. Very. Old. Evidence.

This man speaks truth, the Holy Bible is the true and honest holy book and all other religions are lies, I know this because the Bible says so.

Quote:Adam and Eve broke the big only rule, got themselves kicked out, and made sin, sorrow, and death come into the world.
To let them back in God made a covenant with Abraham were they could get back into heaven by following certain rules.

Of course, God makes the rules, and we all follow them because God is bigger and stronger than us and will beat us up and take our lunch money if we don't send us to Hell to burn forever and ever because he's just so infinitely loving and kind to his children.

And God says that it's proper to punish people for things their relatives do, that's why I'm typing this from a maximum security prison, my cousin just HAD to shoot that cop in the face.

Quote:Because not sinning was very difficult for the Jews

An angel walked the earth, but you killed him, you KILLED HIM YOU BASTARDS!
MAY SATAN GIVE HIS WORST TORMENTS TO ALL WHO IMPEDED THIS DIVINE MAN'S WORK!

Quote:he decided the only sacrifice big enough to purify them so they could be with him in eternity was Jesus, God in the form of man while still having his divinity and committing no sin, as a sacrifice to make up for all of humanity's sins because it was the perfect sacrifice. [Jews used to offer sacrifices like lambs and birds to God in reparation for their sins

You see people, God is infinitely forgiving, but he's not THAT infinitely forgiving, we always need MORE BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD, just some animals writhing in pain as they're being burned alive is enough to earn his endless mercy on most things, but God needed to sacrifice himself to himself so that he could make himself forgive us for breaking rules that he made himself.

Quote:He paid the price for our sins, which is "eternal" damnation. Perhaps we might look at it this way. If I was 10 years old and got into trouble with bullies and they were contemplating stabbing me to death because I stole something from them, my father would come and pay off those bullies so that I wouldn't be killed (eternal damnation).

You people need to understand how horrible crucifixion was, and though many many people face the torture and being put on the cross and Jesus only stayed on the cross for hours while most people lived for days before they got to die, he still had such a horrible death even by the standards of his day.

And don't even bring up that crap about Judas being prophesied to betray Jesus and how that goes again free will and how Jesus went to chillax in heaven after but Judas was sent to Hell to face the worst punishments ever devised forever for something he had no choice in, and that that makes Judas's sacrifice far greater far greater than Jesus's, because that argument doesn't work because the Bible says "Judas bad - Jesus good".

Quote:My father would have "paid in full" the debt I owe. I would owe nothing. But when I got home, my father would probably give me some consequences, not because he hated me or because I owed him a debt, but because he loved me. He's paid off the debt but we need to do what He asks in return: seek His kingdom and try to not sin. It's about discipline to help us fulfill what He asks for in return.

Once more, God makes the rules, and Moses agreed to them for us, no you can't opt out of the A-B Heaven-Hell thing altogether because fuck you, this isn't a democracy, anything you have to say, some old dude from thousands of years ago can say for you.

God may be all powerful, but you're stupid if you think he's just an incredibly intolerant asshole who likes lording his power over people, and there's no chance that he could conveivably be wrong about anything, because he's God and he say's he can't be wrong, so he's right.

I'll burn in hell

[Sasayaki]

Ya know before where you asked for personal proof of God I've thought about it and some of the things that you could say God intervened. I hate going to school and a few months or so ago I was really sad sad sad about having to go to school where in most of my classes I literally know everything already, school is incredibly boring when you are listening to your teacher explain things that are obvious to you but are so hard for some kids in my age-group to get....50% of the time I'm learning stuff I already know literally, borrrringer than watching grass grow, and our classes are too small to use any electronics secretly usually so I prayed for a snow day, I even said I'd use most of the time reading the Bible and singing pslams and praying, I was really serious and really heartfelt in that prayer. The next day no snow day but the day after 1 hour delay, next 2 hours, next 1 and it continued with delays and a closing every single day for a bit over a week. Usually when I pray for no school I don't really believe he will grant a day off from the bottom of my heart that time I seriously believed he would, not maybe he would but he probably won't and I think God realized that I needed a break and gave it.
I haven't had any serious illnesses or cancer so I don't have a gigantic miracle like that but I think that the delays coming from a school that hardly ever has them could mean something. It might be a small miracle and I can't prove to you it was God's doing but it's a personal one.