Let's discuss school

[Desu]

We never discuss school or education on SS anymore. Allow me to start (inb4 zero or 1 reply):

(1) Modern schooling does not teach children how to achieve success on both their own terms, as well as on society's terms. One of the most important lessons one can learn is that it is necessary to find a balance between living for yourself to become an actuated human being, and to live according to the society around you. This will be vastly different from person to person. You have to learn how to adapt, it is not about being a conformist or a non-conformist, it is about finding your place. School causes many children and teenagers to feel alienated from themselves, their peers, and people in other age groups because it forces unnatural behavior.

(2) School is inefficient at its own game. Costs per student are rising, and measures of performance administered by the public school system itself show a decline. Tertiary institutions are beginning to lower standards to accommodate the growing inadequacy.

(3) It is unlikely school will ever cease to be. Even in extreme economic decline or social upheaval, for the most part, societies around the entire planet will constantly try to send their children to some sort of school because the institution of school has linked itself to almost every behavior we have. We schedule work days with the assumption our children will be in a building babysat for 8 hours, 5 days a week. We plan childrens' futures with the assumption they will attend some sort of tertiary education. We plan social events on days/hours that do not interfere with school. Employers plan to hire employees at least partially based upon educational credentials, so prospective employees will make sure they possess those credentials.

You can come up with many more things. The point is that "school" has almost become part of ourselves, and because it is such a psychologically, socially, and bureaucratically ingrained system, it has virtually impossible to remove from society. The notion of removing public schools would almost be akin to suggesting we remove "government". I don't know if there's a good analogy (that one was kind of bad actually), it probably belongs in its own category. School is society.

DISCUSS.

[The Desert Fox]

I'm not for removing school, I'm for reforming school. Make it so that the students have basically complete control over their education, with teachers only there if the kids want their help. The actual buildings would essentially become libraries on steroids, with a ton of information about every subject.

[SoulRiser]

Even that would be hard to actually achieve because of the mindset surrounding school... it really is ingrained in everything around us, people identify themselves according to what grade they're in... how often do people ask some random parent how old their kid is? Not as often as they ask what grade he's in... it's the little things... they add up. Even just a simple word like 'student'... ... "Hi, I'm a student!"... instead of "I'm an unemployed young person because I can't get a job because I have to go to this prison called school all damn day long."

EDIT: Better example:
People say stuff like "When I was in Grade X I did this... (insert story here)"
... instead of ...
"When I was 12 years old I did (whatever)"
People identify more with school's grading system than they do with the natural number of years they've been alive thus far. That's actually scary.

Actually this kinda reminds me of a chapter in Doc's book... which I said I was gonna write a review on... which I haven't done yet...

[LightAbyssion]

Don't forget how many people cash in on school's concept. All the movies, shows, songs, supplies, programs, etc. It's all one big cesspool of greedy men, making money/power off of young people.

You're all right: everything society is begins with school. Label me a terrorist, communist, whatever, but if removing school=removing government, I'd do it. If humans lack so much responsiblity that they need to be controlled 24/7, we deserve to implode. Animals don't need these unneeded regulations. Humans like to put themselves above beasts: it's time to prove it.

[Absnt]

I think we could make some major changes in the schooling system if we could organize mass student protests on a national level. Walkouts, sit-ins, everyone purposely failing, people just plain not showing up, etc.

What would they do? They would probably try to use the police at first, but that's way to big of a job for them, and that would only fuel the protests...

One problem would be organizing everyone to protest for a certain goal. If the government made some big changes it could slow, if not end the protests. What we would need to do is make sure no one stops until we reach a certain goal or the government gives in to certain demands.

Organizing something like that would definitely help, although right now it seems next to impossible. Egypt has got me thinking though.

[-/-]

Quote:Organizing something like that would definitely help, although right now it seems next to impossible. Egypt has got me thinking though.

In Egypt, the police have vanished. With that level of protesting, no one can stop you.

It's next to impossible to try to get independence from the country who is the reason you exist. It's next to impossible to fend off thousands of men with a small army of 300 while the cities are evacuated. Light bulbs? Crazy talk. You must be completely insane if you think you can turn this black crud (coal) into electricity, and when sent through this little bulb thing it will light up. You're downright insane.

Yet all these things have happened. They didn't back down, they didn't give up. Although, Edison was a real jerk, honestly (look up him and Tesla) but that's beside the point.

If we play our moves right, we can do this. It may look as if our pawn will never reach the end of the board to be queened; an army of knights and rooks stand in our way, and we must simultaneously defend the King. But with persistence, smart moves, and clever thinking, we can get him there. Then he'll turn into a queen and reap havoc.

[Prince Rilian]

The Desert Fox Wrote:I'm not for removing school, I'm for reforming school. Make it so that the students have basically complete control over their education, with teachers only there if the kids want their help. The actual buildings would essentially become libraries on steroids, with a ton of information about every subject.

That is removing school. School is the part where you're forced to do shit. If it's all voluntary, then it's not a school. It's a community center.

[The Desert Fox]

Prince Rilian Wrote:

The Desert Fox Wrote:I'm not for removing school, I'm for reforming school. Make it so that the students have basically complete control over their education, with teachers only there if the kids want their help. The actual buildings would essentially become libraries on steroids, with a ton of information about every subject.

That is removing school.

No, it's removing the traditional elements of school.

[PeyRichM]

I'm not sure if I should go to school today I just want to lay back and do nothing plus I have a cold and all so what should I do?

[Faby]

道夫 Wrote:You can come up with many more things. The point is that "school" has almost become part of ourselves, and because it is such a psychologically, socially, and bureaucratically ingrained system, it has virtually impossible to remove from society. The notion of removing public schools would almost be akin to suggesting we remove "government". I don't know if there's a good analogy (that one was kind of bad actually), it probably belongs in its own category. School is society.

I might be talking out of my ass right now, but I'm pretty sure the same worldview -- or at least, part of it -- was the same as concerned slaves, so many years ago. It might've been unthinkable to envision society without slaves. But with the passing of time, worldviews alter gradually, until they don't resemble the past at all.

Also yeah, I went there.

[SoulRiser]

Quote:If humans lack so much responsiblity that they need to be controlled 24/7, we deserve to implode.

This. Also, could be fun to watch humanity imploding.

Quote:It's next to impossible to try to get independence from the country who is the reason you exist.

I'm confused... how can a country ever be the reason I exist? The reason I exist is 'cause my parents did... stuff.

Yeah, I think eventually school (the compulsory/controlling kind) will become obsolete, but humanity as a whole will have to do some serious growing up first.

Quote:It might've been unthinkable to envision society without slaves. But with the passing of time, worldviews alter gradually, until they don't resemble the past at all.

Yup. But of course people had to do quite a bit to get the ball rolling, so to speak. So it's not like we can just sit on our asses and do nothing while waiting for humanity to grow up, we need to tell them how to grow up.

[SoulRiser]

Actually this reminds me of the ending of the Matrix trilogy, where basically the whole solution is that the Matrix continues to exist, but people can opt-out if they want to (basically the machines will stop fighting against people who "quit" the Matrix). When I first saw that I thought that's the lamest solution ever, it's a stupid cop-out, everyone should have freedom... but later on I changed my mind... it's actually the most sensible solution.

Why? Because people are used to the Matrix. Some people even prefer it because it's easier to just go with the flow. It's comfortable and not much is expected of you. We shouldn't deny people this if that's what they want.

So I think the best solution is for school administrators, parents, teachers and everyone to just LET people quit, no questions asked, no begging or threatening them to stay, no bullshit about "OMG UR LIFE WILL BE RUINED" ... just let people quit if they don't want to be in school anymore. Yeah, technically that will be making it optional, but it won't be a huge threat to the people who actually want schooling in its current form.

Yeah, this still requires some mindset-changing. Maybe the best thing to do is just help people quit school. Make support groups or something. Legal support too. Help them get emancipated too if that's what it comes down to. Whatever they need. I dunno.

[aaaaaaasd]

I don't think humans have no responsibility whatsoever, merely the fact that a system cannot work if some people have all the responsibility and some people have no responsibility.

[Prince Rilian]

The Desert Fox Wrote:

Prince Rilian Wrote:

The Desert Fox Wrote:I'm not for removing school, I'm for reforming school. Make it so that the students have basically complete control over their education, with teachers only there if the kids want their help. The actual buildings would essentially become libraries on steroids, with a ton of information about every subject.

That is removing school.

No, it's removing the traditional elements of school.

And leaving nothing but information and people. Then how is it any different from the rest of the world. It's not. So it's not school.

[Desu]

Faby Wrote:

道夫 Wrote:You can come up with many more things. The point is that "school" has almost become part of ourselves, and because it is such a psychologically, socially, and bureaucratically ingrained system, it has virtually impossible to remove from society. The notion of removing public schools would almost be akin to suggesting we remove "government". I don't know if there's a good analogy (that one was kind of bad actually), it probably belongs in its own category. School is society.

I might be talking out of my ass right now, but I'm pretty sure the same worldview -- or at least, part of it -- was the same as concerned slaves, so many years ago. It might've been unthinkable to envision society without slaves. But with the passing of time, worldviews alter gradually, until they don't resemble the past at all.

Also yeah, I went there.

This is actually a legitimate point.

But I think the reason why school is special is because it primarily concerns kids. School has become synonymous with children in particular, and children throughout the majority societies and cultures have ultimately been seen as inferior to adults.

Adults have organize revolutions, overthrow whole countries, overthrow slavery etc.

But kids?

I'm only 20, and already I've forgotten how bad it is to be in a public school. I don't even think about it anymore. I'm anti-school, and I don't even concern myself with the legitimacy of public school anymore. I'm only 20.

Take your average adult, you think they're going to do anything about it? Average adults who need a babysitter 5 days a week (and school happens to fit in perfectly with their work schedule). Adults who were educated in the same system and therefore wouldn't be concerned about true education anyway. Adults who would have to deal with bullshit from the government or other people if they didn't send their kids to school.

Your average adult, who is already alienated from his or her own children, in part due to their kids who have been emotionally and socially damaged by school. School causes an insane amount of social problems, but it's incredible how school is never blamed itself, but rather other things like... violent movies or drugs or just plain calling kids idiots and that's how kids act.

The only way public schools will collapse is if society changes its fundamental views on children and education.

[Desu]

Faby Wrote:

道夫 Wrote:You can come up with many more things. The point is that "school" has almost become part of ourselves, and because it is such a psychologically, socially, and bureaucratically ingrained system, it has virtually impossible to remove from society. The notion of removing public schools would almost be akin to suggesting we remove "government". I don't know if there's a good analogy (that one was kind of bad actually), it probably belongs in its own category. School is society.

I might be talking out of my ass right now, but I'm pretty sure the same worldview -- or at least, part of it -- was the same as concerned slaves, so many years ago. It might've been unthinkable to envision society without slaves. But with the passing of time, worldviews alter gradually, until they don't resemble the past at all.

Also yeah, I went there.

This is actually a legitimate point.

But I think the reason why school is special is because it primarily concerns kids. School has become synonymous with children in particular, and children throughout the majority societies and cultures have ultimately been seen as inferior to adults.

Adults have organize revolutions, overthrow whole countries, overthrow slavery etc.

But kids?

I'm only 20, and already I've forgotten how bad it is to be in a public school. I don't even think about it anymore. I'm anti-school, and I don't even concern myself with the legitimacy of public school anymore. I'm only 20.

Take your average adult, you think they're going to do anything about it? Average adults who need a babysitter 5 days a week (and school happens to fit in perfectly with their work schedule). Adults who were educated in the same system and therefore wouldn't be concerned about true education anyway. Adults who would have to deal with bullshit from the government or other people if they didn't send their kids to school.

Your average adult, who is already alienated from his or her own children, in part due to their kids who have been emotionally and socially damaged by school. School causes an insane amount of social problems, but it's incredible how school is never blamed itself, but rather other things like... violent movies or drugs or just plain calling kids idiots and that's how kids act.

The only way public schools will collapse is if society changes its fundamental views on children and education.

[Absnt]

So how the fuck would anyone go about doing that? School is more or less built to last. It convinces almost everyone of it's positive aspects, and very few of the negative shit that happens. I honestly don't think changing the masses views on the schooling system is even all that possible.

Sure, we can get a few here and a few there, but overall, changing everyones ideas about school seems almost impossible. At least right now. Perhaps it will be possible with the improvement of youth rights, and the youth rights movement growing, but even then...

I think the fastest way to do it would be to start a group, or an organization of some sort and protest as much as possible until we've got a national movement on our hands. Course, that's easier said then done, and like I said before, it seems almost impossible as of now. Especially because most public schooling students agree that school is a necessary evil.

How would we go about changing someone's mind who has been taught since their infancy to believe in a system?

We've discussed changing people's minds before, but doing it one by one is not efficient enough.

[Desu]

Revolutions start when you have a situation where 1 option is convenient and the other is inconvenient.

Slavery, oppressive regimes, bankers fucking the economy in the ass...

People start rising against persons and organizations if they become overly inconvenienced by them PRIOR to situation where that inconvenience did not exist.

But with school, it's been around for more than a generation now. Nobody remembers or knows what's it's like to have life without compulsory school. So the "default" is to have school, rather than to not have it. You might say, well slavery was around for a long time, but eventually it collapsed. But that's because people had something to compare it to (freedom). Same thing with oppressive governments.

Try to bring down school, and you will be utterly laughed at, because right now, it just seems to be "working". Any arguments about school concern tweaking it in tiny, insignificant ways. But for the most part it seems to "work", because there is no major society or successful modern society without compulsory school in existence, so people can't imagine what no school would be like.

People can't imagine what they would do with their kids without school. (OMG, does this mean I have to actually raise them?!) It's scary that parents would not even know what to do with their kids if they had to be with them almost all the time like the way it's supposed to be.

I can almost imagine our future society where school gradually became more and more overbearing until children were simply taken away from their parents and put in school buildings, and they would only take weekends off to visit their parents (optional, or perhaps, rationed). Until finally, parent-child relationships became nonexistent, and only school-child relationships existed. It's already happening on a small level. Just look at parents blaming school for their kids' behavior, and expecting school to raise their children for them. It doesn't even occur to some of these parents that they are.... PARENTS.

[SoulRiser]

There are a few (not all that well-known) things to compare it to... like for instance the education system in Finland has been reported to "work really well" and it turns out it's very relaxed and freedom-ish there.

Same with homeschooling... various studies report homeschooled kids turn out better socially and also do better in college if they go.

Not many studies about unschooling that I'm aware of, though.

Not to mention a LOT of people bitching and moaning about the current "failing education system" in the US (their own words). The problem is that they're trying to fix all the wrong things... they think they need to 'fix' the students, when it's the system that's screwed up. The above examples of homeschooling and Finland and other things like democratic schools can be used to hammer the point home in their tiny little brains.

[Absnt]

I've used homeschooling, unschooling and the like in arguments. Most educators just brush it off and dodge it...

[-/-]

That is, sadly, very true. A solution to this problem will require quite a bit of creative thinking. There are many roads with many different outcomes that we could take.

But remember this: we know now that the slaves were freed and how people's strategies worked well, but to them it was brand new territory. They had nothing to compare it to either. If we really want change, we need to think of new ways of bringing about change. While older war strategies may be helpful, we cannot just follow exactly what they did; we have to come up with a unique solution for this unique problem.


Side note: have any of you read the Shadow Children series by Haddix? I think that they relate to this somewhat, as well as simply being good books.

[Desu]

Absentinsomniac Wrote:I've used homeschooling, unschooling and the like in arguments. Most educators just brush it off and dodge it...

That's because people actually believe it's impossible to learn without someone shoving it down your throat.

It's almost offensive that there are people who actually believe you can't learn without school. Like, what the fuck? Have you ever tried to read a book, or read wikipedia in your life or something? I can't even... comprehend how someone can believe it.

If they believe you can actually learn something outside of school, they'll follow it up with, "But there will be gaps in your knowledge." There are gaps in everyone's knowledge. Anyone who says that doesn't know what learning or education is. Why the fuck is it important for me to know what a diatomic molecule is? If there's any kind of gap, there's a gap of time I'm wasting in school when I could be doing something more productive.

Quote:The problem is that they're trying to fix all the wrong things... they think they need to 'fix' the students, when it's the system that's screwed up.

Because children are dum and do drugs. If they don't have school, they will kill everyone and have unprotected sex on the ground outside.

[LightAbyssion]

I think most people only care when the problem directly affects them. We need some way to slap parents in the face. Show them how many of their own children actually loath this... Sadly, I don't have much faith in maternal love these days. Moms and dads went to school and were taught "the real world is harsh." Most would rather support school than their child's happiness. The intentions are good, but backwards.

If bad comes to worse, younger people will just have to do this alone. I don't think many of the grown-ups will care, because they have nothing to gain. This world isn't full of empathetic individuals who would aid us. A few will help, but "few" is the keyword.

Point is: Teenagers need to stop goofing around and take back the liberties taken at birth. We're all making this seem impossible based on numbers. Have more faith in simple things, like perserverence, wit, bravery... We're defeating ourselves.

[Absnt]

I actually completely agree with you. ^

I've never expected adults to help when it comes to ending the flawed public education system, let alone help further youth rights. The fall of this flawed system will most assuredly come at the hands of anti-school activists who will most likely be teens and young adults. That or former anti-school advocates who grew up and decided they could make a change. Although, that seems unlikely because people generally put high-school behind them, even if they are against it.

Regardless, I'd rather do it myself than have some group of adults come and liberate me. Seems more fitting like that, not that we really have a choice anyway.

[LightAbyssion]

^Funny thing is, I used to think like that: I figured I wouldn't care once I left. I'm technically free now, but I just can't let this whole thing go. In fact, I'm more absorbed than ever. Not sure what the deal is... I blame what's left of my stubborn humanity.

Anyway, I've never been the type to rely on others. Too bad I'm stuck in Canada. There are even less activists around, so I'm screwed for now.

[SoulRiser]

EdgeOfTheRKO Wrote:Point is: Teenagers need to stop goofing around and take back the liberties taken at birth. We're all making this seem impossible based on numbers. Have more faith in simple things, like perserverence, wit, bravery... We're defeating ourselves.

True. It is actually harder for young people because there's this time limit... as soon as they get to 18, they're not technically "minors" anymore, and whatever they do after that won't be seen as something a "minor" accomplished.

Black people never had that problem... they could accomplish anything at any age, and they'd still be black.

[Absnt]

Well, fuck it. I'll be the first to say we probably need help. Our parents won't exactly let us go out and riot in the streets... We can't all go drive to some location at the drop of a hat and do whatever we need to do. Not all of us are going to be able to publish books and write articles and start a movement. We're going to require the help of adults, weather they are teens who were already in the movement and grew up or adults who simply want to help out.

Although, having a lot of teens help out will look better.

[Rastko]

The Desert Fox Wrote:I'm not for removing school, I'm for reforming school. Make it so that the students have basically complete control over their education, with teachers only there if the kids want their help. The actual buildings would essentially become libraries on steroids, with a ton of information about every subject.

What about the idea of virtual schooling? Via webcams? That sounds great to me. We have to get used to the computer age.

[Absnt]

^ Better yet, online lessons that don't require any video contact with teachers... That's what my friend does, and I'd rather do that...

[LOON_ATTIC]

If you think people don't have anything (freedom) to compare with school, what about homeschooling? At least we could use that to start off.