Released for Church?

[bringdownthesystem]

Alright guys, heres what's been going down.

I moved to this redneck middle of nowhere town in Oklahoma, I hate it, but whatever. I started going to this school, and besides it being retarded like a school usually is, something struck me as odd. On like the third Thursday or Wednesday of each month, the kids are released by grade, to go across the street....to a church! For an hour, and then come back. The other option is to stay in class and do whatever you want while the other kids go to the church and drink coke and or eat some snacks the church provides I suppose, that's what I get from what the kids tell me...I don't go over there...

Now, I found out this is against the law, as they can't release school for a religious service at all, unless you just release the school in general for an hour, which means EVERYONE can do whatever...go off campus and whatnot. But the problem is the school doesn't see it that way. They say I need to check with the principle, and confirm and shit. But the law says...and its federal, applies to all states. But it was made because of a similar case...and the point is they can't keep me in class.

Has anyone else heard of anything like this?

[payback123]

No, but it sounds like a bargain if you ask me, I'd just leave for the hour

[délivrance]

just leave for the hour. if they try to make you go to church just bring up that law.

[HerHipness]

I don't know. A very religious, middle-of-nowhere-town...creepy. If you stir up any trouble they might make you disappear.

Very, very strange.

[Vatman]

Agreed, its pretty strange...


I agree with payback....why not simply do whatever you want for that hour?

[Darthmat]

if you re SURE you are right about the law...thn leave school for an hour.

[SoulRiser]

That's weird... does that mean you have an hour less school though?

[NiteRaidah]

Hey, I'd go with it, even if I didn't believe in God. Ya can't go wrong with an hour out of school.

[Darthmat]

and free food....mmmmmmmm

[HeartofShadows]

Hmm this reaks of some kinda cultism. If you see them lowering somebody into a fire or even before that they start mentioning the unclean ones must be punished than I suggest getting out of there.

[Darthmat]

[Guest]

You said you found a similar case, could you tell me what it is? I ask because it sounds to me that what they are doing is legal. Students can be released for religious reasons and most of the students would be of the same religious persuasion (coke-and-snackism, as it sounds).

[bringdownthesystem]

Yes, it does mean I have one less hour of school that hour. But I'm just saying they CAN'T release school specifically for a church service, and I feel the kids are being brainwashed and bribed by the offering of snacks and pop as they call it, as that is what the other kids tell me why I should go, and cuze "they talk about got the whole time"...I would throw up. I would be debating with the preacher for like the whole hour.

Yeah, I would leave... But there is nothing to do in this small town....NOTHING AT ALL...lol.

EDIT:
My mom just found a bunch of stuff out. The school is in violation of the Lemon Law, so look it up if you think about it. Many cases of that law being violated have been won, usually every time....so If I feel like it I might threaten the school with it. Say it gave me emotional stress? which it kinda did since I don't affiliate with any religion...hmmm.

Edit Again: Yeah, specifically, the Lemon family is the one the law is named after, and I believe also the Doe family, but I don't remember the school district.

[bringdownthesystem]

Alright, this is worth a double post....heres a lot of info in the Law, so if your schools in violation.....

Quote:Anything a school does regarding religion must pass the Lemon Test, a Supreme Court Decision. My school, would most likely not pass the Lemon test on what they are doing.

The "Lemon test"

The Court's decision in this case established the "Lemon test", which details the requirements for legislation concerning religion. It consists of three prongs:

1. The government's action must have a legitimate secular purpose;
2. The government's action must not have the primary effect of either advancing or inhibiting religion;
3. The government's action must not result in an "excessive government entanglement" with religion.

Yeah, I'd say it doesn't pass pass 2, or 3....and I don't fully know what secular means.
Ah, so then we asked my Aunt, a teacher, to look up what else she knew about it, and that me and my mom had thought there was a way school COULD release some kids to church....her response:

Quote:What you are probably relating to is the Zorach v. Clauson Supreme Court decision of the 50s on Release Time, in NY.
Grant's school is not falling under this law because of the following reason.
It is by individual request of a parent with a written note asking that his/her child be released to go to religious instruction.
The place of religious instruction then has to take attendance and report back to the school that the child was there.
As you can see, this does not violate the Lemon Test.
However, the school taking it upon it itself to release school for everyone who wants to to go to a church violates all three prongs of the Lemon Test.
A parent with a written request for a child to leave school for religious instruction does not entangle the school in religion, but in the case in Grant's school, it does.
The school is acting as the parent to allow the kids to go, and this is excessive entanglement, not a secular purpose and it advances religion.

So yeah, I guess a couple students could go, but they would need written permission forms FROM THE CHURCH, if the school provides and form of paper, or announced it in any way its entanglement with religion, because the school is using money for the church thing.

Also, all these quotes will be from my aunt, and what she found:

Quote:Some states have definite Release Time laws. However, Oklahoma and TX do not. But since it was a Supreme Court Decision, Zorach v. Clauson would uphold in any state.

Quote:This landmark case in Utah spells out pretty much what I mean.

LDS Seminary in Public Schools

August 2007

In the landmark case of McCollum v. Board of Educ., 333 U.S. 38 (1948), the U.S. Supreme Court held that religious instruction in public schools is unconstitutional. However, students may obtain what is called "released time" to attend private religious classes off campus so long as the public school is not unduly entangled in the religious institution involved.

In determining whether a school is unconstitutionally entangled in a religious instruction program, the Court must apply a three-part balancing test first developed in Lemon v. Kurtzman, 403 U.S. 602 (1971) and refined by Lynch v. Donnelly, 465 U.S. 668 (1984). Under the Lemon/Donnelly test, any government or public school policy must: (1) have a secular purpose; (2) not endorse the practice of any particular religion; and (3) the policy must not create excessive government entanglement with religion. If any of the three conditions are violated, the government policy will be found unconstitutional.

It is important to note that although public schools may not engage in religious instruction, it is permissible to teach about religion from a literary, cultural, or historic point of view. Abington School Dist. V. Schempp, 374 U.S. 203, 306 (1963). Also, in addition to released time requirements, public schools must abide by the federal Equal Access Act, which requires that schools provide student-led religious groups the same access to school resources as any other non-curricular student club (for more information on the Equal Access Act, see the ACLU of Utah resource "Students' Rights to Form Gay/Straight Alliances").

In 1981, the Tenth Circuit Court of Appeals dealt directly with the constitutionality of one released time religious program common in Utah high schools: LDS seminary. In Lanner v. Wimmer, the appeals court found that released time religious programs are not per se unconstitutional. However, they did find that by their very nature, released time programs "can present[ ] the potential for unconstitutional entanglement of public schools with religious institutions." Thus, in implementing released time programs, public schools are obligated to always choose the "least entangling administrative alternatives." Lanner v. Wimmer, 662 F.2 1349, 1358 (10th Cir. 1981)

In Utah, the criteria for enrollment in released time religious instruction courses are defined in the Utah Administrative Code, Rule R277-610. The code stipulates that LDS seminaries and other institutions offering religious instruction, are considered private schools and are separate in all respects from public schools. To secure released time for seminary classes, students must provide the school with written permission from their parents and class times for religious courses must not conflict with required school classes. Most Utah high schools have similar released time programs for student employment, vocational classes, and advanced curriculum courses. However, religious released time programs differ in several major ways:

* Registration for seminary courses is separate from the regular school registration. Seminary credits do not count toward graduation requirements and seminary grades may not be included in official school records or transcripts.

* Seminary classes may not be held in any public school facilities and public school teachers may not teach seminary courses. Seminary teachers are not considered to be members of school faculty, nor are they allowed to participate in any school functions.

* No public funds or public school equipment may be used for religious instruction or promotion of seminary events; this includes the use of telephones, intercoms, copying machines, school newspapers and yearbooks.

* Attending seminary is voluntary; public schools may not encourage students to attend seminary classes and students who don't wish to enroll in seminary cannot be disciplined or sanctioned for not participating.

* Finally, school districts must provide released time for students wishing to participate in religious instruction other than seminary.

Any violation of these policies is unconstitutional and discriminatory and should be brought to the attention of the state office of education, the local school board, and the ACLU of Utah.

and

Quote:As you can see even in Utah, where many kids go for release time, there cannot be a period in the day where the school stops teaching. The schools in Utah have to offer math or history or whatever many times a day, as a student must take off a period when one of these are occurring in order to go to religious training. Therefore, the kids do not all go to religious instruction at the same time.

In such situations the LDS students will take one class period off from the public school as released time. The large numbers taking released time means the seminary has up to six or seven periods corresponding to the public school class periods.

If they are going to have such a time of day where academic instruction stops, then they have to close school for that time, and the students would be able to go where they like.

So, class should still continue...where ours stops...you do whatever you want in class

Quote:This was from an Idaho district.


2. Students desiring to have release time must have a signed parental release form on file in the

high school office or be on a list of students registered for Seminary. This will become a part of

the student's permanent record and must be received before a
student will be permitted to

leave school grounds during the school day to attend a release time program. The school will

maintain a record of each student's daily schedule that indicates when a student is released for

classes in religious education or for other purposes.

3. Release time programs may not interfere with the scheduling of classes, activities and programs

of the district. Participation in release time shall not reduce the minimum graduation

requirements.

mhmmm...

Quote:QUESTION 10: How should parental consent be obtained?

Program administrators should choose the method for obtaining parental consent that will

require the least amount of school involvement.
42 For the reason, the religious groups which

sponsor released time programs should take primary responsibility for distributing consent forms

to parents. In one case, when a group wished to open its program to persons not members of its

denomination, it obtained a student enrollment list from the public school and then mailed the

consent cards to parents.
43 If the group does not wish to offer the program to all students, it can

distribute cards to a select group.

Released time groups should prepare the consent cards and then mail them directly to the

parents. Thereby, the groups steer clear of the prohibitions against state financing or becoming

excessively entangled in administering programs. If the public school wants program

participants to use a uniform consent form, the school should prepare and example which the

religious organization can produce and distribute.

The practice of having public school teachers or religious group representatives distribute

consent cards or explain the program in public classes has been disallowed. Release time

personnel should not enter classrooms to recruit students and public school teachers should not

be allowed to take an active part in the recruitment effort either by physical participation in the

enrollment process or by verbal encouragement of the students.
44

After parents have completed the consent forms, the school must verify that each child

has received parental permission to participate in the program. The religious group may collect

the forms and forward them to the public school officials.
45 Also, the children may return the

forms to the school which then gives the cards to the religious groups in the program who then

inform the school officials which students are to be released.

Ah, also I don't think they can make a deal of it and tell you its time over the intercom, which my school does...as that is discriminatory.

Quote:QUESTION 14: In what manner should students be released from their public school

classes to attend released time classes?

Public school officials should excuse students for religious instruction in the same

manner that they release students for other purposes, as the situation permits. Moreover, school

officials should attempt to excuse students for released time in a manner that stigmatizes neither

the students excused nor those remaining. This, public school teacher and administrators may

not comment on the released time program or on the students who choose to attend or not to

attend.

And I have heard various teachers talk about it before...

Quote:Another thing I did not mention is that I don't know what the administration announces over the intercom, if anything, when it is time to go to the church, but they can only say that it is time for "release time." They cannot say, for example, that it is time to go over to the church
In addition, the church cannot come over and make an announcement to go.

WEll....you wanted info...

[Darthmat]

pwn thier asses.

[bringdownthesystem]

Ah, I think I will thanks. My mom called and sent a letter to the superintendent today.
She got responses like: "What is this lemon law, I've never heard of that, can you send me a fax of that law?"

Which we then did, along with a letter with notes on why they broke each law. She also contacted someone higher up, I forget who...and they said they would contact the school right away, and get this sorted out. If all else fails though...we can call the ACLU (American Civil Liberties Union) They'd love the case...

[Vatman]

I feel like your throwing away a perfectly good opportunity to skip class...

[Darthmat]

bringdownthesystem Wrote:Ah, I think I will thanks. My mom called and sent a letter to the superintendent today.
She got responses like: "What is this lemon law, I've never heard of that, can you send me a fax of that law?"

Which we then did, along with a letter with notes on why they broke each law. She also contacted someone higher up, I forget who...and they said they would contact the school right away, and get this sorted out. If all else fails though...we can call the ACLU (American Civil Liberties Union) They'd love the case...

PWN THEM!!!!

[bringdownthesystem]

Heh, well in a normal city where there is a place to go, I'd love to skip for an hour...but seeing as I don't do a lot of my work anyways....who cares? However its my duty as a citizen to uphold the law, that's why it's there. If everyone would stick up for their rights....the world would be better.