Education is important.

[Vatman]

As the name suggests, I did learn things in school. I despise kids who say, I dont learn anything in school. You dont learn things in school not because the information is not available to you but because you dont want to learn things in school.

Now school is stupid. There are teachers that dont deserve to be teachers...There are classes that are so simple, so useless...they dont deserve to be classes. Homework is mostly there to make your life annoying and ussualy just to keep you busy.

But there is nothing stupid about an education. Anything that you can learn will help you in life.

High level mathmatics like calculus and even triginomitry will most likely never be directly usefull to you. But the process your brain goes through to manipulate an equasion is invaluable.

Some works of literature that teachers push on us are pointless and redundent. But the skill of surveying literature to find the authors message is pivital.

History is biased and filtered, but learning some of the key facts on man's history is important to understanding our presant state.

All of these things people learn in school. I am not saying you cant learn them out side of school, you easily can. But why would you? If you have to be forced to go to school for 6-8 hours a day you might as well get what you can out of it...Is my logic flawed in any way, if so please explain?

[Darthmat]

No it's not.

But we should try to change what's wrong.

[Rebelnerd]

education is important. but unless the schools are removed people will always get a watered down, progagandized version of knowledge that can shape them into the kind of person who would deny true education to others. therefore, although learning is very important, getting rid of the system ruining this process should be first priority. you can still learn things without school, and in doing so you provide them with one less servant, one less human weapon.

[.]

I understand what your saying, but most of the time its bullshit that you just can't learn.

I've learned alot of the basics of school, Now I wanna get home schooled, I wanna study from home, With the help of a tutor one on one, Google it, Research stuff.

45 Minute Periods of boring teaching, kids asking questions, and the teachers scolding so much, If you got home schooled It would be about you, if you got it you move m, simple and you learn alot better so I'm hoping that works out for me, I'm sick of the propaganda hole that is school and being tired and miserable and in pain all the time.

School is just horrible, I don't care what anyone says, You learn stuff that you use in life yeah... some little key factors in 1000+ hours of bullshit.

Yeah Education is important, but school is the worst form of education possible, Its a ineffective system and most people know it but don't fight it because they are manipulated to think its well "part of life"

[roberterher]

Vatman Wrote:All of these things people learn in school. I am not saying you cant learn them out side of school, you easily can. But why would you? If you have to be forced to go to school for 6-8 hours a day you might as well get what you can out of it...Is my logic flawed in any way, if so please explain?

Because when you do what they tell you you support the system.
And most of what's taught in school is things most people are not interested in.
Their goal is for all kids to be slightly good at everything, that's not the way I want to live.
I believe people should follow their interests, instead of pointless crap their brain will filter out after a while anyway because they have no use of it. That's the reason so many people forget almost everything they learned in school, they have no use for it later.

[Will]

Vatman Wrote:As the name suggests, I did learn things in school. I despise kids who say, I dont learn anything in school. You dont learn things in school not because the information is not available to you but because you dont want to learn things in school.

Yes, but also because school is inefficient

Vatman Wrote:High level mathmatics like calculus and even triginomitry will most likely never be directly usefull to you. But the process your brain goes through to manipulate an equasion is invaluable.

What makes you think that?

Vatman Wrote:Some works of literature that teachers push on us are pointless and redundent. But the skill of surveying literature to find the authors message is pivital.

I don't understand the idea of practicing analyzing or learning to analyze literature. Not everyone writes the same way, and writers should try to make things easy to understand.

Vatman Wrote:All of these things people learn in school. I am not saying you cant learn them out side of school, you easily can. But why would you?

Because school is rarely the most efficient way to learn something, because I don't want to learn all of these things, at least not now and simultaneously and because there are other reasons why school is undesirable

Vatman Wrote:If you have to be forced to go to school for 6-8 hours a day you might as well get what you can out of it...Is my logic flawed in any way, if so please explain?

You should try to get what you can out of school, but only if you can't get out of school; that would be even better.

[SoulRiser]

Quote:But there is nothing stupid about an education. Anything that you can learn will help you in life.

Life IS education. Learning opportunities are always good, but "learning opportunities" that force you to attend and take up time you could have spent on more worthwhile learning opportunities are not good.

Quote:High level mathmatics like calculus and even triginomitry will most likely never be directly usefull to you. But the process your brain goes through to manipulate an equasion is invaluable.

That's nice, now what if you were doing something that had the same effect on your brain, AND whatever you were doing was also actually directly useful to you? Computer programming, solving a puzzle in a fun game, cracking passwords in games... Probably even just thinking really hard about something. People who are math inclined will find a way to practice it and get good at it no matter what you do to them. Other people won't, but they can do other things better.

Quote:Some works of literature that teachers push on us are pointless and redundent. But the skill of surveying literature to find the authors message is pivital.

If you were really interested in what you were reading, you'd probably do that anyway. If you weren't, no amount of forcing is going to get that skill through to you. I'd argue that going through an article and sniffing out any lies and contradictions in it would be a better skill, but they don't teach that in school (for obvious reasons).

Quote:History is biased and filtered, but learning some of the key facts on man's history is important to understanding our presant state.

That's true. But what does that have to do with memorizing dates and foreign names? That's pretty much all I remember ever doing in history class. We never learned the message behind anything. Or I don't remember ever learning any messages. Maybe by the time we got to the message at the end I had fallen asleep out of boredom.

Quote:I am not saying you cant learn them out side of school, you easily can. But why would you?

Because there are so many better and more interesting things you can learn. Solving math problems does things for your brain, that's nice, so does thinking really hard about other things too. Analyzing written things is useful yes, but there are millions of written things you can analyze every day, many of which are a lot more interesting than some random fiction book. History is good to know, so load up a couple of Wikipedia pages and read it somewhere where nobody is going to bitch at you if you don't remember which day of the week some random French dude with an incomprehensible name discovered dinosaur poo on the beach (or whatever).

So school does a few useful things. So what? If they gave you free ice cream in hell, would you want to go there?

[youvebeenthunderstruck]

Vatman, honestly, wtf? You're a mod here and you're trying to convince us that forced education is a GOOD thing?

[The Wadekarl]

SoulRiser Wrote:So school does a few useful things. So what? If they gave you free ice cream in hell, would you want to go there?

Sorry for the brief change in topic, but I would indeed want to go to hell if they gave out free ice cream.

[Will]

youvebeenthunderstruck Wrote:Vatman, honestly, wtf? You're a mod here and you're trying to convince us that forced education is a GOOD thing?

No, he's trying to figure out why his thoughts don't make sense.

[Trekkie_Aspie]

Vatman Wrote:As the name suggests, I did learn things in school. I despise kids who say, I don't learn anything in school. You don't learn things in school not because the information is not available to you but because you dot want to learn things in school.

Now school is stupid. There are teachers that don't deserve to be teachers...There are classes that are so simple, so useless...they don't deserve to be classes. Homework is mostly there to make your life annoying and usually just to keep you busy.

But there is nothing stupid about an education. Anything that you can learn will help you in life.

High level mathematics like calculus and even triginomitry will most likely never be directly usefull to you. But the process your brain goes through to manipulate an trigonometry is invaluable.

Some works of literature that teachers push on us are pointless and redundent. But the skill of surveying literature to find the authors message is pivital.

History is biased and filtered, but learning some of the key facts on man's history is important to understanding our presant state.

All of these things people learn in school. I am not saying you cant learn them out side of school, you easily can. But why would you? If you have to be forced to go to school for 6-8 hours a day you might as well get what you can out of it...Is my logic flawed in any way, if so please explain?

Right. I didn't learn because I didn't want to. It certainly didn't have anything to do with things which would be crimes directed at adults which was dismissed as bullying. Right. I didn't learn because I didn't want to. It certainly didn't have anything to do with the fact that no-one showed me how to transfer skills - something I needed to be taught. The fact that the system was aimed at an entirely different brain structure is irrlevant - it must have been because I didn't want to learn. And why is it pivotial? You can enjoy words on a page. And to be honest, maybe that poet thought 'I'm gonna write a poem about a flower', maybe he ACTUALLY SAID WHAT HE MEANT TO SAY.
It's the process that's important? Ohhhh....I see, why not teach THE PROCESS then? At least that, would be useful. Because I have a mild form of autism, I can't separate well. Also, because of that, I don't pick up on the hints other people do. But you're right, it must be because I didn't want to learn.

[mudkip liek]

SoulRiser, why are you so intelligent? Every word you have typed seems JUST RIGHT!
That was an AWESOME argument. That's why there's no need for me to say anything, everything that was needed to be said, has been said.

[Freak]

haha, is was awesome because you agreed. And she was "right" because you agreed, that and she's and intelligent 24 year old that's been running and anti-school website since like 1999.

[Abandoning Ship]

Quote:If they gave you free ice cream in hell, would you want to go there?

In all likelihood, yes.

[mudkip liek]

SoulRiser Wrote:So school does a few useful things. So what? If they gave you free ice cream in hell, would you want to go there?

And since everyone's answering this, I want to also.

My answer's no, because I don't believe in hell.

[mudkip liek]

Freak-of-nature14 Wrote:haha, is was awesome because you agreed. And she was "right" because you agreed, that and she's and intelligent 24 year old that's been running and anti-school website since like 1999.

That is true to some extent, but also, she had a lot of good points. ANYONE who DIDN'T agree with her, would notice.

[Vatman]

Quote:Life IS education. Learning opportunities are always good, but "learning opportunities" that force you to attend and take up time you could have spent on more worthwhile learning opportunities are not good.

From a purely logical outlook....take a step back from all bias and lets look at human nature as a whole. (I am a fruedian/existentialist on the subject of the NOM and my beliefs echo on this outlook)

If a man was to pick up a fruit on the ground and not know its breed, would it be better for the man to test it himself or ask an elder if said fruit is poisonous. Our life is full of learning opportunities... some better then others, but there seems to be a shortcut on the matter, to borrow knowledge from other founts. If you are one of the founders of the roman republic, a great senator in fact. And the problem arises that there are so many uneducated farmers and workers who are dying of a poisenous fruit...What would you do, kindly suggest not to eat such a fruit? Of course you can, but these men are ignorant and stupid...should one man die because your message was not brought across. No you would force them all into an area and forbid it by law to each such a fruit.

(now I know this concept would only be acceptable if said leader is noble, just, and loving...and that really doesn't exist anymore...but if parents are ignorant because they havent gone to school, how can they teach their kids who haven't gone to school...I mean sure there will be annomilies...some kid will work hard and learn what they can from this new source of information, and he will pass it on to his kids...ect...I suppose its possible that eventually everyone will become educated that way, but its unlikely.(then again everyone being educated because of school is also unlikely haven't))

Quote:That's nice, now what if you were doing something that had the same effect on your brain, AND whatever you were doing was also actually directly useful to you? Computer programming, solving a puzzle in a fun game, cracking passwords in games... Probably even just thinking really hard about something. People who are math inclined will find a way to practice it and get good at it no matter what you do to them. Other people won't, but they can do other things better.

Thats not necessarily true. Not many people can go right into computer programming with no prior knowledge in the subject of mathmatics....Games usually are more about putting time into something rather then actually strategic code making...People for hundreds of years never really jumped into subjects without the opportunity to do so. I think history has proved that if man isnt forced to do something we probably wont do it.

Quote:If you were really interested in what you were reading, you'd probably do that anyway. If you weren't, no amount of forcing is going to get that skill through to you. I'd argue that going through an article and sniffing out any lies and contradictions in it would be a better skill, but they don't teach that in school (for obvious reasons).

Your logic suggests a need for interest in reading to read. I was not interested in poetry. I thought it was pointless, that there is no need to conceal a theme that can be wrote in a sentence rather then in a more difficult stanza. But because I was forced to read poetry, to read works by Ovid, Virgil, and Lord Byron.....I developed a great love for poetry.

Quote:That's true. But what does that have to do with memorizing dates and foreign names? That's pretty much all I remember ever doing in history class. We never learned the message behind anything. Or I don't remember ever learning any messages. Maybe by the time we got to the message at the end I had fallen asleep out of boredom.

Really? History to me is one of the greatest written stories ive ever read. Those dates and foreign names are like music to me, each has his own tune, no matter how high or low the volume of their voice is. In a way it all echo's into our new changing song.

Quote:Because there are so many better and more interesting things you can learn. Solving math problems does things for your brain, that's nice, so does thinking really hard about other things too. Analyzing written things is useful yes, but there are millions of written things you can analyze every day, many of which are a lot more interesting than some random fiction book. History is good to know, so load up a couple of Wikipedia pages and read it somewhere where nobody is going to bitch at you if you don't remember which day of the week some random French dude with an incomprehensible name discovered dinosaur poo on the beach (or whatever).

So school does a few useful things. So what? If they gave you free ice cream in hell, would you want to go there?

I have always gotten horrible grades in school, I hate the classes, the kids, the teachers, I hate the whole way that its packaged and sold. But I love the fact that it is being sold, I love knowledge and I know for a fact that if it were not for school I would never have had any reason to pick up the books that I have nor do the things that I have. I realize that information is much more readily available now then it was way back when, but that doesent give us the motivation to look it up. You said earlier that if you have a talent in mathematics you will eventually find a way to do mathematics. But what if you dont know? School gives us an opportunity to find our nich.

(I would go to hell without the free ice cream)

Gosset, I apologize for not answering your reply first...I feel like most of your questions where better said by soulriser...I will answer what I can though.

Quote:Because school is rarely the most efficient way to learn something, because I don't want to learn all of these things, at least not now and simultaneously and because there are other reasons why school is undesirable

Doesn't basic reason suggest that the more you know the better you can understand the world around you. I personally love knowing everything I can...there is no tidbit of information that I dont feel worthwhile enough for me to at least to take a moment to analyze the truth/relevance of the fact.

Also lets say that you arent sure what you are good at. School gives you 12 years to decide and learn what you are better at learning and what you are not. (12 long......long....long years)

Quote:I don't understand the idea of practicing analyzing or learning to analyze literature. Not everyone writes the same way, and writers should try to make things easy to understand.

But I love their differences....writers each put a peice of themselves into their work...take a popular author like Ernest Hemmingway...I believe he lost his father in his youth, also he was known to be one of those people who bottle up all their emotion on the inside....And all of his piece that I can think of off the top of my head are simply him in some symbolic way.

Things shouldn't simply be made easy, for it would be difficult to find moral value in a statement. I could say that it is horrible to kill people, or I could tell the story of the holocaust...all of its horror's would result in a form of moral reflection where the reader can first identify the problem and use examples from the text to test their own consepts of whether it is really wrong to kill people.

[Vatman]

Quote:Right. I didn't learn because I didn't want to. It certainly didn't have anything to do with things which would be crimes directed at adults which was dismissed as bullying. Right. I didn't learn because I didn't want to. It certainly didn't have anything to do with the fact that no-one showed me how to transfer skills - something I needed to be taught. The fact that the system was aimed at an entirely different brain structure is irrlevant - it must have been because I didn't want to learn. And why is it pivotial? You can enjoy words on a page. And to be honest, maybe that poet thought 'I'm gonna write a poem about a flower', maybe he ACTUALLY SAID WHAT HE MEANT TO SAY.
It's the process that's important? Ohhhh....I see, why not teach THE PROCESS then? At least that, would be useful. Because I have a mild form of autism, I can't separate well. Also, because of that, I don't pick up on the hints other people do. But you're right, it must be because I didn't want to learn.

Yea bullies, peer pressure....all that stuff....yea school sucks in that aspect...I have been kicked the shit out for no reason other then being jewish ...not once...but twice...

How to transpher skills...I am not sure exactly what you mean to imply...can you rephrase that for me?

If you didnt know how to play baseball, and you didnt have any intrest in learning baseball...would you learn how to play baseball?

But if you tryed pitching, batting, and catching and really enjoyed them....would you learn how to play baseball?

The same consept goes for anything...people cant learn something if it doesent exist or if they dont have the will to do it. No I dont think school is for everyone since not everyone wants to learn its matierial.

Your right in the sense that not all people learn in the same way...some learn by doing, some learn by hearing..ect. But dont teachers lecture in class, give homework assignments, and ask you to write essays?

Lecturing would appeal to auditory learners

Homework would be more of a repitive memorization based learning process

Essays are more of a hands on type of learning, you go out and find your own ideas on a subject and relate them to ideas found in your text as well as other sources.

Three of the basic types of learning are right there. I dont do homework because I am an auditory learner...I dont care about grades or any of that bull shit..I care about the consept, the raw fact that sheds light on our world even in a very small way.

I wont responde to your critisim of poetry because you are more mocking it then asking why its important.

I am very sorry to hear that you have a mild form of autism...that just means you have a greater wall to climb to learn these things...perhaps review twice as hard? I personally had a very severe case of ADD untill I was 13...and I cant compare ADD however serious to autisim...but still I managed to force myself to focus on games like chess and starcraft...then continue to hone this focus with books of fantacy and now I can read pretty much anything cover to cover without stopping (if I wanted to)

[Will]

SoulRiser Wrote:If they gave you free ice cream in hell, would you want to go there?

I've been thinking the same thing, and I always want to explain this to someone, but I never came up with such a good analogy for it.

Vatman Wrote:

Quote:Life IS education. Learning opportunities are always good, but "learning opportunities" that force you to attend and take up time you could have spent on more worthwhile learning opportunities are not good.

From a purely logical outlook....take a step back from all bias and lets look at human nature as a whole. (I am a fruedian/existentialist on the subject of the NOM and my beliefs echo on this outlook)

If a man was to pick up a fruit on the ground and not know its breed, would it be better for the man to test it himself or ask an elder if said fruit is poisonous. Our life is full of learning opportunities... some better then others, but there seems to be a shortcut on the matter, to borrow knowledge from other founts. If you are one of the founders of the roman republic, a great senator in fact. And the problem arises that there are so many uneducated farmers and workers who are dying of a poisenous fruit...What would you do, kindly suggest not to eat such a fruit? Of course you can, but these men are ignorant and stupid...should one man die because your message was not brought across. No you would force them all into an area and forbid it by law to each such a fruit.

(now I know this concept would only be acceptable if said leader is noble, just, and loving...and that really doesn't exist anymore...but if parents are ignorant because they havent gone to school, how can they teach their kids who haven't gone to school...I mean sure there will be annomilies...some kid will work hard and learn what they can from this new source of information, and he will pass it on to his kids...ect...I suppose its possible that eventually everyone will become educated that way, but its unlikely.(then again everyone being educated because of school is also unlikely haven't))

Quote:That's nice, now what if you were doing something that had the same effect on your brain, AND whatever you were doing was also actually directly useful to you? Computer programming, solving a puzzle in a fun game, cracking passwords in games... Probably even just thinking really hard about something. People who are math inclined will find a way to practice it and get good at it no matter what you do to them. Other people won't, but they can do other things better.

Thats not necessarily true. Not many people can go right into computer programming with no prior knowledge in the subject of mathmatics....Games usually are more about putting time into something rather then actually strategic code making...People for hundreds of years never really jumped into subjects without the opportunity to do so. I think history has proved that if man isnt forced to do something we probably wont do it.

Quote:If you were really interested in what you were reading, you'd probably do that anyway. If you weren't, no amount of forcing is going to get that skill through to you. I'd argue that going through an article and sniffing out any lies and contradictions in it would be a better skill, but they don't teach that in school (for obvious reasons).

Your logic suggests a need for interest in reading to read. I was not interested in poetry. I thought it was pointless, that there is no need to conceal a theme that can be wrote in a sentence rather then in a more difficult stanza. But because I was forced to read poetry, to read works by Ovid, Virgil, and Lord Byron.....I developed a great love for poetry.

Quote:That's true. But what does that have to do with memorizing dates and foreign names? That's pretty much all I remember ever doing in history class. We never learned the message behind anything. Or I don't remember ever learning any messages. Maybe by the time we got to the message at the end I had fallen asleep out of boredom.

Really? History to me is one of the greatest written stories ive ever read. Those dates and foreign names are like music to me, each has his own tune, no matter how high or low the volume of their voice is. In a way it all echo's into our new changing song.

Quote:Because there are so many better and more interesting things you can learn. Solving math problems does things for your brain, that's nice, so does thinking really hard about other things too. Analyzing written things is useful yes, but there are millions of written things you can analyze every day, many of which are a lot more interesting than some random fiction book. History is good to know, so load up a couple of Wikipedia pages and read it somewhere where nobody is going to bitch at you if you don't remember which day of the week some random French dude with an incomprehensible name discovered dinosaur poo on the beach (or whatever).

So school does a few useful things. So what? If they gave you free ice cream in hell, would you want to go there?

I have always gotten horrible grades in school, I hate the classes, the kids, the teachers, I hate the whole way that its packaged and sold. But I love the fact that it is being sold, I love knowledge and I know for a fact that if it were not for school I would never have had any reason to pick up the books that I have nor do the things that I have. I realize that information is much more readily available now then it was way back when, but that doesent give us the motivation to look it up. You said earlier that if you have a talent in mathematics you will eventually find a way to do mathematics. But what if you dont know? School gives us an opportunity to find our nich.

(I would go to hell without the free ice cream)

Gosset, I apologize for not answering your reply first...I feel like most of your questions where better said by soulriser...I will answer what I can though.

Quote:Because school is rarely the most efficient way to learn something, because I don't want to learn all of these things, at least not now and simultaneously and because there are other reasons why school is undesirable

Doesn't basic reason suggest that the more you know the better you can understand the world around you. I personally love knowing everything I can...there is no tidbit of information that I dont feel worthwhile enough for me to at least to take a moment to analyze the truth/relevance of the fact.

Also lets say that you arent sure what you are good at. School gives you 12 years to decide and learn what you are better at learning and what you are not. (12 long......long....long years)

Quote:I don't understand the idea of practicing analyzing or learning to analyze literature. Not everyone writes the same way, and writers should try to make things easy to understand.

But I love their differences....writers each put a peice of themselves into their work...take a popular author like Ernest Hemmingway...I believe he lost his father in his youth, also he was known to be one of those people who bottle up all their emotion on the inside....And all of his piece that I can think of off the top of my head are simply him in some symbolic way.

Things shouldn't simply be made easy, for it would be difficult to find moral value in a statement. I could say that it is horrible to kill people, or I could tell the story of the holocaust...all of its horror's would result in a form of moral reflection where the reader can first identify the problem and use examples from the text to test their own consepts of whether it is really wrong to kill people.

John Taylor Gatto mentions in many of his writings that children are expected to turn their attention, interest, &c. on at the beginning of the period and off at the end and then switch it for the next period. This doesn't seem natural, which may explain why it doesn't work. Thoughts are some sort of natural processes that occur in your body that hasn't been fully explained yet. We sometimes assume that people should be able to go home from school and study something more useful, but this doesn't work because this isn't how our brains work.

Given a week off school, I am first quite "lazy" and don't do much "useful" stuff. Throughout the week, I feel like I need show that I'm working when my parents are around, and this feeling gets stronger towards the end of the week, when I worry more about getting my school work done in time. This feeling ruins the other feeling that I have: the strong feeling that I want to do a specific thing.

If school were really meant for learning and had a very wide range of interesting courses that were not limited to one building and everyone wanted to go, &c., it would be really cool. You say that you find many school subjects rather interesting and that school exposed you to new things that you initially didn't really want to do but that were necessary or fun. If you found them interesting as they were, great, but they would have been better if you didn't have other things wasting your time and weren't working in a system where most people don't want to be and where grades are the main motivator for learning. School only exposed you to new things that you wouldn't have looked at outside of school because you were so tired from school that you couldn't look at them outside of school.

Quote:

Quote:That's nice, now what if you were doing something that had the same effect on your brain, AND whatever you were doing was also actually directly useful to you? Computer programming, solving a puzzle in a fun game, cracking passwords in games... Probably even just thinking really hard about something. People who are math inclined will find a way to practice it and get good at it no matter what you do to them. Other people won't, but they can do other things better.

Thats not necessarily true. Not many people can go right into computer programming with no prior knowledge in the subject of mathmatics....

You don't need prior knowledge of mathematics to program computers; you can learn math.

Quote:Games usually are more about putting time into something rather then actually strategic code making...

How do you know?

Quote:People for hundreds of years never really jumped into subjects without the opportunity to do so.

Duh, how can you do something without the opportunity to do it?

Quote:I think history has proved that if man isnt forced to do something we probably wont do it.

I doubt that anyone forced these people to do what made them famous or that anyone forced these people to do what made them wealthy. You say "probably," so your thoughts only have to apply to a majority of things in order to be right, but I think you need to define "thing" better. We eat, sleep, move, reproduce, socialize and play without being forced to.

I think I've addressed each of your responses, but tell me if you don't think I haven't addressed all of them.

SoulRiser Wrote:If they gave you free ice cream in hell, would you want to go there?

Wouldn't it melt?

[Vatman]

I dont perceive it the same way, though interesting it is quite true that if you study something...you will very likely learn something...cause and effect non?

I dont understand what you mean by useful. Personally im a horrible student. I failed triginometry last year, since I didnt do any of the work, skipped the tests and overall did next to nothing. I studied it though..when I went to class I listened as the teacher explained it. In my freetime I looked at its origins, how the forumlas where created and who created them.. And when it came time for finals I got an A on my final. I could care less about the class itself, but the consepts taught, the comprehension of the subject.... are what drive me to learn the material.

[mudkip liek]

Then again, that's just you.

[Trekkie_Aspie]

Vatman Wrote:

Quote:Right. I didn't learn because I didn't want to. It certainly didn't have anything to do with things which would be crimes directed at adults which was dismissed as bullying. Right. I didn't learn because I didn't want to. It certainly didn't have anything to do with the fact that no-one showed me how to transfer skills - something I needed to be taught. The fact that the system was aimed at an entirely different brain structure is irrlevant - it must have been because I didn't want to learn. And why is it pivotial? You can enjoy words on a page. And to be honest, maybe that poet thought 'I'm gonna write a poem about a flower', maybe he ACTUALLY SAID WHAT HE MEANT TO SAY.
It's the process that's important? Ohhhh....I see, why not teach THE PROCESS then? At least that, would be useful. Because I have a mild form of autism, I can't separate well. Also, because of that, I don't pick up on the hints other people do. But you're right, it must be because I didn't want to learn.

Yea bullies, peer pressure....all that stuff....yea school sucks in that aspect...I have been kicked the shit out for no reason other then being jewish ...not once...but twice...

How to transpher skills...I am not sure exactly what you mean to imply...can you rephrase that for me?

If you didnt know how to play baseball, and you didnt have any intrest in learning baseball...would you learn how to play baseball?

But if you tryed pitching, batting, and catching and really enjoyed them....would you learn how to play baseball?

The same consept goes for anything...people cant learn something if it doesent exist or if they dont have the will to do it. No I dont think school is for everyone since not everyone wants to learn its matierial.

Your right in the sense that not all people learn in the same way...some learn by doing, some learn by hearing..ect. But dont teachers lecture in class, give homework assignments, and ask you to write essays?

Lecturing would appeal to auditory learners

Homework would be more of a repitive memorization based learning process

Essays are more of a hands on type of learning, you go out and find your own ideas on a subject and relate them to ideas found in your text as well as other sources.

Three of the basic types of learning are right there. I dont do homework because I am an auditory learner...I dont care about grades or any of that bull shit..I care about the consept, the raw fact that sheds light on our world even in a very small way.

I wont responde to your critisim of poetry because you are more mocking it then asking why its important.

I am very sorry to hear that you have a mild form of autism...that just means you have a greater wall to climb to learn these things...perhaps review twice as hard? I personally had a very severe case of ADD untill I was 13...and I cant compare ADD however serious to autisim...but still I managed to force myself to focus on games like chess and starcraft...then continue to hone this focus with books of fantacy and now I can read pretty much anything cover to cover without stopping (if I wanted to)

I'm not mocking poetry, not any further than I mock everything anyway. I'm simply mocking school's tendency to over-analyse everything. I picked on poetry because it's what it seems to happen to the most. All I'm saying is that maybe, just, maybe the poet said what they meant. To my mind, it's an insult to the poet to do that because from my perspective, it implies that the poet didn't get the message across clearly and is a rubbish writer.

Okay. My brain works differently. Meaning the wall is against me. This is a majority rule world. I'll tell you what it is: Imagine the wall is designed for climbing up and I need to climb down.

See my point?

And you've heard it before, I proclaim it in my signature! Ah, if you wanted to - so that just implies that you need to have an interest in it. And school tends to not 'appeal' to everyone but to make sure people do work. It's not a case of: Auditory learners go to lectures, tactile learners experiment, and visual learners learn by visual. It's a case of: Force everyone to do everything. Which causes resentment which means learning slides.


What about tactile learning? As in actually feeling something? How often does that happen?

Also, the system is designed for people who have a filter. I don't. Designed for people who don't have sensory issues. I do.


Oooh....twice. Forgive me, if I don't sound sympathetic but that sounds like the number of times, I haven't been. And....y'know, I don't think you can compare religion to special needs.


If you didnt know how to play baseball, and you didnt have any intrest in learning baseball...would you learn how to play baseball?

But if you tryed pitching, batting, and catching and really enjoyed them....would you learn how to play baseball?

That's precisely what I mean. I wouldn't learn baseball - I'd just be taught and then withdraw when I noticed everyone else noticed I was **** and started on at me for that.

And if I tried that, 'catching' would be totally different according to my mind to 'catching in a game'. I don't have that instinctive transfer. And it's always a case of, with me 'Teach what I already know, ignore the stuff I need to learn'



The same consept goes for anything...people cant learn something if it doesent exist or if they dont have the will to do it. No I dont think school is for everyone since not everyone wants to learn its matierial.

Precisely the point. Too many parents think it's school, as opposed to education, that's compulsory.



Your right in the sense that not all people learn in the same way...some learn by doing, some learn by hearing..ect. But dont teachers lecture in class, give homework assignments, and ask you to write essays?


They do. However, each of those is likely to only appeal to one type. Yet, everyone does everything.


And btw, school does not automatically equal education. It can equal education. But...it doesn't have to. Otherwise, we'd be anti-education as well as anti-school.


And the thing is, if your peasant asks an elder, he still wanted to ask. I'm sure your peasant would react quite differently, if an elder randomly came up and told him it was poisonous.

[arthasmenethil]

Quote:I think history has proved that if man isnt forced to do something we probably wont do it.

Then history can fuck itself. I have studied music for a long time. Noone has forced me to do it. Music is just the only thing that I have interest in. That and serial killers(don't ask why I just do)

Quote:Your logic suggests a need for interest in reading to read. I was not interested in poetry. I thought it was pointless, that there is no need to conceal a theme that can be wrote in a sentence rather then in a more difficult stanza. But because I was forced to read poetry, to read works by Ovid, Virgil, and Lord Byron.....I developed a great love for poetry.

Being forced to read poetry just made me fall asleep and fail every test I had to take on it

Quote:History to me is one of the greatest written stories ive ever read. Those dates and foreign names are like music to me, each has his own tune, no matter how high or low the volume of their voice is. In a way it all echo's into our new changing song.

I kind of like history, but learning about these retarded literary movements in history really makes me sleepy. I could give a fuck less about names and dates too.

Oh, and the more I read your arguements for forced schooling the more I think you are joking.

[Vatman]

Quote:Thats not necessarily true. Not many people can go right into computer programming with no prior knowledge in the subject of mathmatics....

You don't need prior knowledge of mathematics to program computers; you can learn math.

I see, do you know computer programing by chanse...it does require a great deal of mathmatic like manipulation of code....sure by yourself you can learn to add divide and multiply but its a rare case that on your own you have the drive to learn more advanced algebrah.

Quote:How do you know?

I have played so very many games....so very many.

Quote:Duh, how can you do something without the opportunity to do it?

Exactly my point...school gives us that opportunity.

Quote:I doubt that anyone forced these people to do what made them famous or that anyone forced these people to do what made them wealthy. You say "probably," so your thoughts only have to apply to a majority of things in order to be right, but I think you need to define "thing" better. We eat, sleep, move, reproduce, socialize and play without being forced to.

Are you kidding, gandi was forced into becoming a monk...hitler was forced into his tactics as a means to raise to power in germany...and most of those people on your list are entrapranuers, entraprenuers by nature..identify a problem then find a way to fix it and sell it.

Quote: If they gave you free ice cream in hell, would you want to go there?

Who cares...I just want to see if Dante was right.

Quote:Okay. My brain works differently. Meaning the wall is against me. This is a majority rule world. I'll tell you what it is: Imagine the wall is designed for climbing up and I need to climb down.

You are not special....I wish I could tell every single child this, because its getting to their heads. Your mind is not an enigma that will light our dark times. In fact if anything you may be able to only comprehend the works of much greater men. I dont like that about school...they shouldent compare tests/grades to other people becuase it gives kids the sense of compitition when it really doesent matter...it really doesent..

Quote:What about tactile learning? As in actually feeling something? How often does that happen?

Writing notes on something you already have learned in class is a form of tactile learning...=p

Quote:Also, the system is designed for people who have a filter. I don't. Designed for people who don't have sensory issues. I do

It probably sounds insensitive..but survival of the fittest.

Quote:Precisely the point. Too many parents think it's school, as opposed to education, that's compulsory.

See you do get me...education is the point of school and if you can get the point across without having to go through certain evils..then by all means...but if you cant...then school will force you to.

Quote:And btw, school does not automatically equal education. It can equal education. But...it doesn't have to. Otherwise, we'd be anti-education as well as anti-school.

No if you want it to...it can...

Tell me the truth. You seem like a bright kid...if you were to try your best at learning everything they had to teach...dont you think its more then likely that you will indeed learn what you need to learn?

Quote:And the thing is, if your peasant asks an elder, he still wanted to ask. I'm sure your peasant would react quite differently, if an elder randomly came up and told him it was poisonous.

And there lies the irony of our situation. We cant start from scratch, we must ask. How can a child natrually learn how a car works? Really, what if the poison wasent deadly...for example poisenberries (excuse me if I dont know the biological name for them..but in connecticut/new york/pennsylvania they run applenty....parents tell their kids constantly....you should not eat those berries...but every kid does and every kid gets diareha)

Quote:To my mind, it's an insult to the poet to do that because from my perspective, it implies that the poet didn't get the message across clearly and is a rubbish writer.

Well then its the school's fault for hiering a crappy teacher.

[arthasmenethil]

Quote:Exactly my point...school gives us that opportunity.

But answer this: Is it the only place?

Quote:Are you kidding, gandi was forced into becoming a monk...hitler was forced into his tactics as a means to raise to power in germany...

Was either forced to do what they did. Neither would be famous if they had only done what you said

Quote:It probably sounds insensitive..but survival of the fittest.

Survival of the fittest? You think just because someone isn't the same as you, you are more "fit?" Not everyone is the same. Wasn't everyone made differently? That's what I learned.

Quote:education is the point of school and if you can get the point across without having to go through certain evils..then by all means...but if you cant...then school will force you to.

That's what people hate. School forces you to "learn" things that you have no interest in. Yes, school has some good intentions, but sadly, they are not met.

Quote:if you were to try your best at learning everything they had to teach...dont you think its more then likely that you will indeed learn what you need to learn?

Noone NEEDS to learn anything that they don't want to. Letting others force you to do something is little more than slavery.



Okay, vatman, I have one last question: Why the fuck did you suddenly come to the conclusion that forced education is a good thing?

Here's my official response to everything you said: FUCK IT ALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[mudkip liek]

Quote:I see, do you know computer programing by chanse...it does require a great deal of mathmatic like manipulation of code....sure by yourself you can learn to add divide and multiply but its a rare case that on your own you have the drive to learn more advanced algebrah.

Actually, that's where you're wrong. I HATE math, I'm not interested in it at all, therefore I suck at it. But I just learned HTML by myself, by always being around it. It doesn't mean I know math. And really, HTML isn't even math, it's just a bunch of letters and symbols.

[Will]

Vatman Wrote:

Quote:Thats not necessarily true. Not many people can go right into computer programming with no prior knowledge in the subject of mathmatics....

You don't need prior knowledge of mathematics to program computers; you can learn math.

I see, do you know computer programing by chanse...it does require a great deal of mathmatic like manipulation of code....sure by yourself you can learn to add divide and multiply but its a rare case that on your own you have the drive to learn more advanced algebrah.

It's also a rare case that people want to program computers.

chemistry_hater Wrote:

Quote:I see, do you know computer programing by chanse...it does require a great deal of mathmatic like manipulation of code....sure by yourself you can learn to add divide and multiply but its a rare case that on your own you have the drive to learn more advanced algebrah.

Actually, that's where you're wrong. I HATE math, I'm not interested in it at all, therefore I suck at it. But I just learned HTML by myself, by always being around it. It doesn't mean I know math. And really, HTML isn't even math, it's just a bunch of letters and symbols.

HTML isn't a programming language.

Vatman Wrote:

Quote:How do you know?

I have played so very many games....so very many.

So? How many have you written?

Vatman Wrote:

Quote:Duh, how can you do something without the opportunity to do it?

Exactly my point...school gives us that opportunity.

As someone else just mentioned, school isn't the only thing that gives you opportunities.

Vatman Wrote:

Quote:I doubt that anyone forced these people to do what made them famous or that anyone forced these people to do what made them wealthy. You say "probably," so your thoughts only have to apply to a majority of things in order to be right, but I think you need to define "thing" better. We eat, sleep, move, reproduce, socialize and play without being forced to.

Are you kidding, gandi was forced into becoming a monk...hitler was forced into his tactics as a means to raise to power in germany...and most of those people on your list are entrapranuers, entraprenuers by nature..identify a problem then find a way to fix it and sell it.

I'm having trouble coming up with a precise definition for "force," but what you're saying doesn't feel like "force"; your examples feel more like the type of motivation that I like. When I chose the word "force," I was thinking of tactics like those used in school, which are much more systematic than those that you gave. Nobody told those people that they would be considered failures if they didn't save the world or become billionaires.

Vatman Wrote:

Quote: If they gave you free ice cream in hell, would you want to go there?

Who cares...I just want to see if Dante was right.

You're welcome to go then, but you'll have a hard time convincing me to follow you.

Vatman Wrote:

Quote:Also, the system is designed for people who have a filter. I don't. Designed for people who don't have sensory issues. I do

It probably sounds insensitive..but survival of the fittest.

And if you're more fit elsewhere, you should leave school.

Vatman Wrote:

Quote:And btw, school does not automatically equal education. It can equal education. But...it doesn't have to. Otherwise, we'd be anti-education as well as anti-school.

No if you want it to...it can...

Tell me the truth. You seem like a bright kid...if you were to try your best at learning everything they had to teach...dont you think its more then likely that you will indeed learn what you need to learn?

Why do you need to learn anything? I could learn all of the stuff they teach if I wanted to, but I don't want to. You can try to take advantage of the good parts of school and avoid the bad parts, but part of this involves a lessened respect for grades; this is what Grace Llewellyn discusses in here.

Vatman Wrote:

Quote:And the thing is, if your peasant asks an elder, he still wanted to ask. I'm sure your peasant would react quite differently, if an elder randomly came up and told him it was poisonous.

And there lies the irony of our situation. We cant start from scratch, we must ask. How can a child natrually learn how a car works? Really, what if the poison wasent deadly...for example poisenberries (excuse me if I dont know the biological name for them..but in connecticut/new york/pennsylvania they run applenty....parents tell their kids constantly....you should not eat those berries...but every kid does and every kid gets diareha)

If telling kids constantly not to eat the berries doesn't work, maybe parents should try something else. It is useful to have elders tell you not to eat poisonous fruit, but they shouldn't need to punish you when you do eat it. It would make sense for them to choose not to treat you if treatment would be difficult.

Vatman Wrote:

Quote:To my mind, it's an insult to the poet to do that because from my perspective, it implies that the poet didn't get the message across clearly and is a rubbish writer.

Well then its the school's fault for hiering a crappy teacher.

I don't think that's exactly what Trekkie_Aspie meant, but even if it was, I don't see why you responded the way you did. If the school does lots of stupid things and won't fix them, shouldn't you find a better place to spend your childhood?

When I mentioned earlier that I don't like the idea of "practicing" analyzing literature, I meant that I didn't think people needed to analyze easier things in order to be able to analyze harder things. People who read more often will generally understand written works faster than those who don't, but the others still can understand the works. If you like reading, read.

[Vatman]

Quote:But answer this: Is it the only place?

No it is not the only place that gives us opportunity....but most people dont even use the opportunity given to them...the simply space out in class, or even disregard the whole thing. I dont see a point in doing that.

Quote:Was either forced to do what they did. Neither would be famous if they had only done what you said

Man has the burdon of having free will and choises, would you not agree that Hitler had two choises...he could exploit an already hated group in Germany and then use the anti-semetic backing as a means to gain support and overthrow the goverment. Or he could try his luck morally explianing that for Germany to become prosperous once again it would need to base itself on a single industry (in ww2's case it was military). And sell to the other nations in the world.

Quote:Survival of the fittest? You think just because someone isn't the same as you, you are more "fit?" Not everyone is the same. Wasn't everyone made differently? That's what I learned.

I dont agree, I think men are created equally, and our personal adaptations to our enviorment decree whether or not we do well in the world. I may be more fit in a situation where reasoning is important to my survival then someone who is more inclined on impuslive action...yes in that sense I agree....but in an evolutionary sense no, we are all in fact equal.

Quote:That's what people hate. School forces you to "learn" things that you have no interest in. Yes, school has some good intentions, but sadly, they are not met.

They can be met if you strive for them to be met. Thing is, do you really want to learn about all the stupid stuff they have to teach? No, you pick a subject or so that you find interesting and from there you develope intrest. So most of it is a waste of time...but because people are different, school allows us the option of compensating those difference by wasting everyones time equally.

Quote:Noone NEEDS to learn anything that they don't want to. Letting others force you to do something is little more than slavery.

Your absolutly right. We dont need to learn anything we dont want to. That doesent nessiarily mean that we shouldent learn certain things. And then of course logically the question arises of what we should and shouldent learn. And there in lies the mistake that our education system has made. That courses should be generalized to accomidate the masses. Instead they should be accomidated to the individual, to their learning styles, needs, and intrests.

Quote:Actually, that's where you're wrong. I HATE math, I'm not interested in it at all, therefore I suck at it. But I just learned HTML by myself, by always being around it. It doesn't mean I know math. And really, HTML isn't even math, it's just a bunch of letters and symbols.

I would just like to say that HTML is not the computer programing I was implying. I was speaking more along the lines of C++, binary, javascript....HTML is not really programming

Quote:Okay, vatman, I have one last question: Why the fuck did you suddenly come to the conclusion that forced education is a good thing?

I will address this question not only to you but to those who think I enjoy forced education. It makes sense. I would rather lay outside and stare up at the clouds my whole lifetime then sit for one period inside a classroom. I am not sure how your feelings are in this matter...but those are mine. But while I am in fact forced to be in this situation, I might as well make the best of it untill I can change it in the future.

[Vatman]

Quote:I don't think that's exactly what Trekkie_Aspie meant, but even if it was, I don't see why you responded the way you did. If the school does lots of stupid things and won't fix them, shouldn't you find a better place to spend your childhood?

When I mentioned earlier that I don't like the idea of "practicing" analyzing literature, I meant that I didn't think people needed to analyze easier things in order to be able to analyze harder things. People who read more often will generally understand written works faster than those who don't, but the others still can understand the works. If you like reading, read.

I never said the school does not make mistakes, some teachers really dont deserve to be teachers. Especially if they pick a poem with no deeper meaning...but then again you can find meaning in anything...a leaf falling down when your sad can imply the fall of your mood...

And when I say analizing literature, I also imply simply reading. I personally dont need to write an essay to analize literatrue.

Quote:I'm having trouble coming up with a precise definition for "force," but what you're saying doesn't feel like "force"; your examples feel more like the type of motivation that I like. When I chose the word "force," I was thinking of tactics like those used in school, which are much more systematic than those that you gave. Nobody told those people that they would be considered failures if they didn't save the world or become billionaires.

Ahh but society does tell them that they are great if they do become a
billionare...yes? So there is your force, it may not be a man beating it into your head, since it is already beaten in your head that money makes the man.

Quote:You're welcome to go then, but you'll have a hard time convincing me to follow you.

If I could have Virgil as my guide, nothing would stop me from going.

[Will]

Vatman Wrote:

Quote:Was either forced to do what they did. Neither would be famous if they had only done what you said

Man has the burdon of having free will and choises, would you not agree that Hitler had two choises...he could exploit an already hated group in Germany and then use the anti-semetic backing as a means to gain support and overthrow the goverment. Or he could try his luck morally explianing that for Germany to become prosperous once again it would need to base itself on a single industry (in ww2's case it was military). And sell to the other nations in the world.

He could have become an artist instead.

Vatman Wrote:I will address this question not only to you but to those who think I enjoy forced education. It makes sense. I would rather lay outside and stare up at the clouds my whole lifetime then sit for one period inside a classroom. I am not sure how your feelings are in this matter...but those are mine. But while I am in fact forced to be in this situation, I might as well make the best of it untill I can change it in the future.

For some reason I forgot that this was your main point. I agree that you should try to make the best of it, but trying to pay attention in all classes or to learn all of the material that is being covered may not be the way to make the best of it. People need to rest, so you can't be expected to be equally productive throughout the day. There's a limited amount of time, so you can only do so much in one day. It's already difficult to keep on top of your schoolwork without any non-school activities. In order to study something that isn't covered in school, you'll almost definitely have to neglect something that you're supposed to study.