Love and dependency

[dreamer...]

Darthmat Wrote:Become independent.

That's easier said than done. When you love someone enough, I think it's natural to be somewhat dependent on them (*waits for Soul to post link to Love vs Dependence article, rolling her eyes*). You become accustomed to the friendship/entertainment/support they give you, and when that friendship is missing for too long, you feel down. If my friendships all ended tomorrow, I would feel pretty crappy. I rely on my friendships to some extent for the positive things I get out of them.

[SoulRiser]

Quote:When you love someone enough, I think it's natural to be somewhat dependent on them (*waits for Soul to post link to Love vs Dependence article, rolling her eyes*).

http://info.soulriser.com/Love
(well, you were waiting for it, and I don't like to disappoint)

Quote:You become accustomed to the friendship/entertainment/support they give you, and when that friendship is missing for too long, you feel down.

You're right though. But when that happens, I can usually cheer myself up by thinking about the good times... and the fact that it all actually happened. ... But yeah, I know what you mean. I don't think that's really the same kind of dependency though. It's not like you're completely unable to function without that person around... right?

[dreamer...]

Sorry AWOL, but I'm going to derail this thread for a minute to reply to SoulRiser...

I reread the Love article...and either that definition is wrong, or I have never loved another. The article points out that love has nothing to do with the self at all...if you're getting something out of the relationship, it seems to say, there's no love. It sounds like love is all giving and no taking. And to be honest, I could not live with that sort of relationship. I have friendships because my friends give me happiness and entertainment. Yes, I do care about the other person's happiness. But if I only gave and did not receive, I wouldn't continue the friendship...of course both friends should get something out of their relationship. If love, as the article explains, doesn't involve wanting anything for yourself, then I have never loved.

I don't know how exactly I would define "love"....I think of it as a relationship where one wants another to be happy and also wants the other to make her happy. Or one desires that both share together in happiness. I can't think of a good definition, but I do believe that love is far from selfless. It's a mutual thing- you give it, and you want some back.

[SoulRiser]

But doesn't giving to another person make you feel happy too?

That love article/page thing is really about pure/unconditional love. It's not like as soon as you get something from a relationship, that means there's no love... it depends on what your intentions are. If you're in the relationship with the goal of getting something out of it, then it isn't unconditional... You can love a person and want something from them, but in that case your intentions aren't completely pure.

Then it's just a case of whether or not you consider conditional love to be love at all... on the one hand, I don't think it really is (it doesn't feel the same either), but on the other hand, that pisses a lot of people off when you're basically telling them they don't really love anyone.

[liq3]

But it's true. If you want something from someone, as soon as they stop giving it, you won't really want them anymore.

[dreamer...]

SoulRiser Wrote:But doesn't giving to another person make you feel happy too?

Yes, but I unless I don't know the person very well (in which case I wouldn't say I loved him), I typically want the other person to give back to me. I suppose I don't love unconditionally, then...I must be pretty selfish.

SoulRiser Wrote:(it doesn't feel the same either)

Can you describe what exactly this "unconditional love" feels like?! Sounds fishy to me.

liq3 Wrote:If you want something from someone, as soon as they stop giving it, you won't really want them anymore.

Actually, I tend to want them even more after they stop giving it...and so I start yearning for the good old days and lamenting the friendship I've lost and wallowing in self-pity. Wow, I guess I really am self-centered. Maybe some people are simply incapable of unconditional love.

[Happy Camper]

dreamer... Wrote:

liq3 Wrote:If you want something from someone, as soon as they stop giving it, you won't really want them anymore.

Actually, I tend to want them even more after they stop giving it...and so I start yearning for the good old days and lamenting the friendship I've lost and wallowing in self-pity. Wow, I guess I really am self-centered. Maybe some people are simply incapable of unconditional love.

I'd disagree with liq too. But in my relationships I find I want them to want me. I want them to want me to make them happy. And I want them to do the same. But if they stop giving me love...

Then I want them to want to. Yay for old rock lyrics.

"I want you to want me,
I need you to need me,
I'd love you to love me,
I'm begging you to beg me."

I'm in a tricky spot for relationships. I have a tendency to be codependent. Or rather...I have a tendency to enable codependency. I'm aware of this and I try to fight it. So my boyfriend seems to get one of two extremes. "It's okay, I'll take care of you." and then, "Grow some balls. We're two separate people."

Thankfully, he deals with it.

[dreamer...]

Happy Camper Wrote:But in my relationships I find I want them to want me. I want them to want me to make them happy. And I want them to do the same. But if they stop giving me love...

Then I want them to want to.

Thank you. That is exactly the type of relationship I'm talking about.

Happy Camper Wrote:I have a tendency to enable codependency.

You're a poet and you just don't know it!
As I see it, a loving relationship by default creates some amount of codependency. That's what I was trying to say with my first post. (Either I'm right, or I can't face the possibility that I'm a pathetic dependent who has no real friends). If anything plays an important role in your life, you become a little dependent on it....If I ate Toaster Strudel every morning, the morning I didn't eat it I would feel like something was missing. I would survive, and life would go on, but I would still miss my Toaster Strudel. It's the same with friends in my opinion. They're like a semi-addiction: you become accustomed to their role in your life and feel empty if they leave that role. You want them to stay and keep giving to you.

[Happy Camper]

In the case of friends...this sounds bad. But I can usually make them semi-easily and leave them really easily. Whenever we're at camp and people are crying and asking me to email them every week, I'm like shrugging and saying "we'll see" when inside I know, "Pfft. I'm not gonna email you after the first two weeks of leaving."

There are always exceptions. But those are exceptions for me. Friends I grew up with, if I were to go back and visit them without seeing them in a few years, it'd be like the time never passed (as I realized when I visited without seeing them in four years this summer). And I can count on one hand, the number of people who are fantastic friends of mine who I love dearly and consider best friends even though they all live in different time zones. (All but one whom I met in real life and moved away from.)

Their names are Jess, Brie, Murphy, Katie, and Zach. Oh, I guess Hannah would be on that list too, I met her online originally though.

I have friends locally but they're all casual friendships.

[SoulRiser]

Quote:Can you describe what exactly this "unconditional love" feels like?! Sounds fishy to me.

:>_>:
If I could describe it in words I would have done so by now. I think the closest I can get is this poem I wrote:
http://art.soulriser.com/poetry/Fire_Escape.php
Which is pretty vague. It's kinda like a feeling that you'd gladly give up pretty much anything for someone you love unconditionally... yet at the same time it's not like 'giving up' at all, it feels more like gaining something.

Quote:Actually, I tend to want them even more after they stop giving it...and so I start yearning for the good old days and lamenting the friendship I've lost and wallowing in self-pity. Wow, I guess I really am self-centered. Maybe some people are simply incapable of unconditional love.

This made me lol 'cause you're being so hard on yourself
I think most people never experience unconditional love in their entire lives... or it sure looks that way.

Also, all the times you've given people advice and support on here, you didn't expect something back, right? So why'd you do it?

This quote kinda sums up the entire thing quite nicely:
Immature love says, "I love you because I need you." Mature love says, "I need you because I love you." --Erich Fromm

[dreamer...]

Nice poem! It does make some sort of sense...but I don't think I've experienced that pure of a love. Even the times I've thought "I would do anything for so-and-so," I only felt that way because so-and-so gave me care and friendship first. The closest I've ever come to unconditional love is probably my relationship with my cat

SoulRiser Wrote:Also, all the times you've given people advice and support on here, you didn't expect something back, right? So why'd you do it?

Sigh. I would like to think that I was being completely selfless...but that isn't the truth. The truth is, giving advice makes me feel...significant. Trustworthy. Appreciated. Of course that isn't the only reason I do it; I do care very much about the people here, and I don't want any of you to feel hurt or lost. But I support others in part out of my own need for security and confidence. I appear to be a better person than I really am because I censor out my negative traits: insecurity, jealousy, irritability, and sometimes cockiness. That's the truth...I'm not the person I act like I am. I do my best not to bother everyone with my less appealing characteristics...and so I'm not completely honest with you. If you thought I was selfless, well, sorry to disappoint you, but I'm very far from it. I'm selfish. Maybe I shouldn't be giving advice at all.

My ego is begging me not to submit this, to just continue the charade, but I ought to be honest with you for once.

[SoulRiser]

Quote:The closest I've ever come to unconditional love is probably my relationship with my cat

lulz

Well, the reason I started trying to be a good friend was so that I could get friends. Now that I have friends, that isn't the reason I do it anymore... now I do it 'cause I don't really know how not to... it's like I know that if I neglect someone or something, I seriously beat the crap out of myself mentally. I'm not sure that that's really better... but it's different at least.

So I guess I'm selfish too. It feels good to do good things for people, and it feels bad when I don't. But in that case I don't really expect something from them specifically, anything I get or don't get comes from inside me... is that really any better? ... now there's a good question. I'm dependent on my own feelings about myself. Is it really possible not to be?

[mcampbell075]

Very inspiring! ;D

Ugh, My pride is very high when it comes on love thing. I hope one day I can be a sweet and independent with my feelings.

[Thought Criminal]

I've been in love, I can speak form experience that if you are in a long relationship you most definitely become dependent on them. Both mentally and physically.
You enjoy their company and have a strong mental desire to be with her and and if you are having sex then your body will lack that need as well. It's not fun losing someone.

[aaaaaaasd]

cool bump bro

[Thought Criminal]

Oh shit. I didn't even notice. O.o Don't bump shit.

[Ahab]

dreamer... Wrote:

Darthmat Wrote:Become independent.

That's easier said than done. When you love someone enough, I think it's natural to be somewhat dependent on them (*waits for Soul to post link to Love vs Dependence article, rolling her eyes*). You become accustomed to the friendship/entertainment/support they give you, and when that friendship is missing for too long, you feel down. If my friendships all ended tomorrow, I would feel pretty crappy. I rely on my friendships to some extent for the positive things I get out of them.

Yeah, I notice it happens a lot especially with high school aged/college aged people. There's a tendency for co-dependency among commited relationships, I think the monogamy aspect is what causes it. In a sense, I would like to have a good relationship like that, but I tend to avoid dating because it usually ends up with somebody in my peer group, and she or I end up becoming infatuated.