Enough is Enough

[mrtuesday]

Hello there, everyone. I used to post on this forum under the name Psionicsavior and I'd like to share my experience since then.

I never much liked elementary school. Come to think of it, I hated elementary school. I was the quiet, “I’ll just raise my hand so the old lady at the front of the room will shut up and I can get back to reading” type. Pretty common, I'm sure.

Finding it difficult to relate to anyone, I resorted to immersing himself in books and video games to escape the drab realities of my everyday life. School couldn’t hold my attention very long. Though I got good grades, I felt that the entire thing amounted to little more than scholarly masturbation and didn’t take it very seriously.

I probably learned more from my time playing video games than I ever did in Middle School. Problem solving, lateral thinking, how to bust a cap in a Balla’s face during a drive-by, games were an all-inclusive course of study. After all, you never know when you’ll need to be prepared for a zombie invasion.

Time went on, and by the time I reached Seventh Grade I was convinced that school a heartless institution hellbent on the gradual infantilization of the public.

I shared my qualms about the educational system, toting a copy of THE UNDERGROUND HISTORY OF AMERICAN EDUCATION with me wherever I went. John Taylor Gatto fascinated me as a young boy. How did it never occur to these “educators” that learning in the real world is more effective than any amount of textbook work? My parents noticed my lack of enthusiasm about the whole school thing, and took me to a psychologist.

I presented the shrink with an eloquent, well-researched argument about how school fails to equip our children for the future, how true learning can only result from dedicated autodidactism, how the emphasis on testing detracts from our innate love of learning for its own merit…

“You can’t change the school system,” she told me. I assembled a three and a half page long treatise about how I wanted to pursue homeschooling, but my parents didn't take me up on the offer. I could look forward to five more years of school; lucky me.

The political activist that I was, I joined school-survival.net and started passing out flyers at my lunch table, with some basic information about compulsory schooling’s deeply-ingrained flaws. I caused a bit of a stir, but my fire eventually died out. I had homework to do, after all.

However: as I matured I came to realize that school was indeed worth the time investment. I had deluded myself into thinking that I was being psychologically molested every day because I was simply too lazy to do my schoolwork and I was looking for an excuse, an easy way out. As much as I hesitate to say it, many of the people on this forum now seem to be in the same predicament. The sheer fact is, I was depressed. I wasn't thinking straight.

In hindsight, school wasn't bad after all. I wouldn't be who I am today without the memories, the friendships, and most importantly the things I learned along the way. The idea that the average person is not only capable but motivated enough to pursue education of its own merit is romantic but honestly false. Homeschooling/Unschooling inevitably causes more problems than it solves, and I'm glad that my parents continued my public education.

I'm sure that there are some schools, particularly poorly-funded ones, that are hellish and terrible. But extrapolating that to every single building is unfair. Many of my teachers were bright, funny people who cared about their students' well-being. I was just too foolish to see it at the time.

It's not nearly as bad as some make it out to be. Making flyers and protesting are the wrong way to go about bettering your own education.

I admire many of your efforts, specifically Soulriser's, to bring scholarly pursuits back into the public eye and quell teenage suicide. But you could be concentrating your resources in a more productive manner. Show kids that school is not the bogeyman. Homework can be irritating at times and the idea of a bell-schedule is counter-intuitive, but all in all school's primary aim is to help you. If you can stop being anal-retentive and get over its quirks, you will find that it can be one of the best times of your life.

It may be compulsory, but it's for your own good. Just man up and go with it. Society isn't trying to brainwash you. Trust me; I used to be one of you guys.

[Leon Kinotolian]

I'll give you this much, mate: You put a great deal effort into this post, and I respect that. I read every last bit of it, absorbed the content, and processed it. That said...

We lost another one, folks.

[Number11]

I could spout out some rude comment like, "Guess who fell out of the brainwashed tree?" or "Another good reason to avoid inhaling Wite-Out,"....

...but it's obvious you're a troll who may be a teacher/educator/parent who found this site, took a quick look into the books section, crapped out that entire bullshit lie of a story, as if we were stupid enough to just drop all our acquired wisdom as to the truth of school's evils, and believe you, because your story was similar.

Please try this educational game:

"Insert 25 cents or paperclip"

[Faby]

Killjoy Wrote:It may be compulsory, but it's for your own good. Just man up and go with it. Society isn't trying to brainwash you. Trust me; I used to be one of you guys.

No, god damnit, no. You can't just go around accepting everything bad that happens to you and say "eh, I'll just be a man and suffer for the rest of my life". You've got to try to change things, or quit on things entirely.

And about "society isn't trying to brainwash you", uhm, no. Well, actually, yeah, it's not society's intention to brainwash you, but the government's. You need to live in a rock-solid fantasy to think it's in the government's best interest to provide society with good education. Otherwise how'd they keep us dumbed down and obedient? If the government truly wanted us to be educated, then we'd be educated. It's they who poison us with TV and consumerism instead of showing us how good education is.

Oh well, it's your life, and it's your choice whether you accept living an illusion or not.

[Sociopath]

Killjoy Wrote:It may be compulsory, but it's for your own good. Just man up and go with it. Society isn't trying to brainwash you. Trust me; I used to be one of you guys.

You were never one of us, u were always brainwashed, too much of a complete FatFuck to get off his Lazy punk-ass up and do a google search to see WHY school sucks!

Ignore him guys, he's obviously a troll implanted to lower morale

[SoulRiser]

You know it's the first of May, not April, right? This reminds me of an April fools' joke I once had on the site, except lots of people believed that one. Your "school is good for you" thing really isn't very convincing. Better luck next time though!

[psychopath]

I smell a bobmanperson

[Milk2Go]

Only I decide what's good for me. Not you. Not the government. Not society. Only me.

[Faby]

BobManPerson Wrote:Only I decide what's good for me. Not you. Not the government. Not society. Only me.

That too.
I wanted to write it into my post but I would have probably gotten a response along the lines of "You're so ungrateful and must be chained for the government-hating scum you are".

[Trar]

This topic os eerily similar to George Orwell's 1984. The protagonist tries to rebele against the authoritarian government, but fails, is caught, and then brainwashed into believing that the government, and most importantly BIG BROTHER, are good for you.

The only thing school is good for are the tasty lunches and the minute amounts of socialization I get with my friends.

[mrtuesday]

I really did not want to come back here, but some of these responses are infuriating.

Faby Wrote:No, god damnit, no. You can't just go around accepting everything bad that happens to you and say "eh, I'll just be a man and suffer for the rest of my life". You've got to try to change things, or quit on things entirely.

You are trying to undermine the few people in your life who are honestly attempting to help you and you're too immersed in your own dogmatic beliefs to see it. Teachers are not part of a mass governmental conspiracy to brainwash you. Thinking that you're in possession of secret knowledge about school being a sign of a looming Orwellian future is patently absurd. The entire point of that post was that I wasn't suffering in the first place; I was depressed yet too stubborn to admit that my mindset was the problem and not the education system.

Faby Wrote:And about "society isn't trying to brainwash you", uhm, no. Well, actually, yeah, it's not society's intention to brainwash you, but the government's. You need to live in a rock-solid fantasy to think it's in the government's best interest to provide society with good education. Otherwise how'd they keep us dumbed down and obedient? If the government truly wanted us to be educated, then we'd be educated. It's they who poison us with TV and consumerism instead of showing us how good education is.

I take it that the government straps you down to a chair every night with your eyelids stapled open and forces you to watch reality television and buy things? Mate, you're the one who's delusional. By claiming that everyone has been brainwashed, you're discrediting yourself as well, a textbook unintended self-inclusion fallacy. School tries to introduce people to all walks of life, all forms of study. If your only complaints are the bell schedule and the idea of them assessing your knowledge so that they can better cater to your weaknesses, I'm sorry for you.

Faby Wrote:Oh well, it's your life, and it's your choice whether you accept living an illusion or not.

Ignoring the obvious condescension for a moment, this is a relativist fallacy and a vomit-inducing one at that.

TrueAnarchist Wrote:You were never one of us, u were always brainwashed, too much of a complete FatFuck to get off his Lazy punk-ass up and do a google search to see WHY school sucks!

Ignore him guys, he's obviously a troll implanted to lower morale

It sickens me that someone can be this paranoid. What is this, a cult? You have to understand that you aren't an enlightened minority fighting against the forces of evil. You're some kids on an internet forum who don't believe that school fits your needs as you continue to ignore its numerous merits.

BobManPerson Wrote:Only I decide what's good for me. Not you. Not the government. Not society. Only me.

Great. If you want to be like that, go live in a desert somewhere. Living in a society requires a little conforming, but it's certainly preferable to living in utter chaos. The benefits of civilization greatly outweigh the negatives. Before you go on and spout more nonsense about me being some teacher with an axe to grind, let me tell you that I was once an anarchist chaote. I've been there.

SoulRiser Wrote:You know it's the first of May, not April, right? This reminds me of an April fools' joke I once had on the site, except lots of people believed that one. Your "school is good for you" thing really isn't very convincing. Better luck next time though!

What is wrong with you? I thought you were one of the intelligent ones on this cesspool of a forum, but I guess I was mistaken. By the same token, your "school isn't good for you" thing isn't very convincing. But you guys are the ones at risk here, not me. That's why I wasted the time writing this post trying to help the sorry lot of you. Thanks for meeting me with venomous hostility. I'm ashamed that I ever associated myself with this place.

Number11 Wrote:I could spout out some rude comment like, "Guess who fell out of the brainwashed tree?" or "Another good reason to avoid inhaling Wite-Out,"....

...but it's obvious you're a troll who may be a teacher/educator/parent who found this site, took a quick look into the books section, crapped out that entire bullshit lie of a story, as if we were stupid enough to just drop all our acquired wisdom as to the truth of school's evils, and believe you, because your story was similar.

How can you possibly live if you're this suspicious about everyone? No wonder you're a conspiracy theorist. Everything in that damned post was the honest truth, and the very notion that you dare call me a troll is demeaning to your cause, whatever it may be.

Other than Leon Kinotolian, you all should be embarrassed. Do you ever listen to yourselves?

[returnal]

"But it's for your own good" is a oft-heard excuse for compulsory schooling, but it's quite null when you think about it. All these news-making "quirks" about school aren't limited to the things people are brave enough to talk about; in fact these kinds of incidents happen much more often. It's just that the students are too brainwashed into believing that's it all right and "hey, they tell us it's regular routine, so why not?" Fear is instilled on to students. They don't want them to rebel and see the truth, so they hide it with mirrors and wires, and threaten anyone who tries to uncover and spread the facts with a suspension or - oh no! - expulsion.

Just because someone says "you" can't stop "it" doesn't mean "it" can't be stopped. It just means it's going to take more than one person or a group of persons to stop "it". Sure, there will never be a "revolution" in my (or most anyone else here's) lifetime, but that doesn't mean you can't give up the good fight. The whole system can't be overhauled, but little parts - bit by bit - can be fixed up to at least make some people happy.

But not surprisingly, they never tell you this, because they don't want to accidentally make you a bit more rebellious. You can't think that everything you are told is right - it might as well be fiction - and I did at first view the anti-school movement with suspicion, but that doesn't mean everything is a lie. Proof is needed, and we (the anti-school movement) do in fact suffer from a lack of truth, but that is not because we make things up, instead it's because not enough people speak up. It's because of fear. Brainwashing. Threats.

You get my point.

[Milk2Go]

EDIT: This is so fucking stupid I won't even bother replying to it.

You are dangerously ignorant. That's all I have to say.
People like you make me lose faith in humanity.

Also, you are living proof that school does indeed brainwash people.

[Bob Dole]

So, basically you burnt out and just forgot about all of the much better alternatives to school in favor of just getting on with life with as little trouble as possible?

[mrtuesday]

BobManPerson Wrote:EDIT: This is so fucking stupid I won't even bother replying to it.

You are dangerously ignorant. That's all I have to say.
People like you make me lose faith in humanity.

Also, you are living proof that school does indeed brainwash people.

If you would stop stroking your own ego and look at the facts, you might be inclined to join my side of this dilemma. Calling me brainwashed isn't an argument; it's immature ad hominem bullshit that you are carelessly throwing about because your belief system isn't strong enough to support itself and we both know it. How does any intelligent discourse go on in a forum where everyone is so openly hostile and vitriolic? If you truly believed in Socrates' famed quote about the life unexamined, you would welcome people questioning your beliefs and thank them for caring enough to ask about them. But no, this is hardly a debate. This has degenerated into a pathetic bout of mudslinging. I don't know what I was thinking when I tried to talk to you people.

HALCYON DREAMS Wrote:So, basically you burnt out and just forgot about all of the much better alternatives to school in favor of just getting on with life with as little trouble as possible?

No, I discovered that I didn't know it all and that the world isn't out to "brainwash" me. I realized that I was wrong and continued going to school, eventually realizing that it was indeed beneficial to my well-being. Don't demonize it as choosing the path of least resistance.

Also, I like the Boondocks avatar.

[returnal]

Facts? Says the one that endlessly swears in their posts and strokes their own ego.

Might as well post might argument again:

Newtown Wrote:"But it's for your own good" is a oft-heard excuse for compulsory schooling, but it's quite null when you think about it. All these news-making "quirks" about school aren't limited to the things people are brave enough to talk about; in fact these kinds of incidents happen much more often. It's just that the students are too brainwashed into believing that's it all right and "hey, they tell us it's regular routine, so why not?" Fear is instilled on to students. They don't want them to rebel and see the truth, so they hide it with mirrors and wires, and threaten anyone who tries to uncover and spread the facts with a suspension or - oh no! - expulsion.

Just because someone says "you" can't stop "it" doesn't mean "it" can't be stopped. It just means it's going to take more than one person or a group of persons to stop "it". Sure, there will never be a "revolution" in my (or most anyone else here's) lifetime, but that doesn't mean you can't give up the good fight. The whole system can't be overhauled, but little parts - bit by bit - can be fixed up to at least make some people happy.

But not surprisingly, they never tell you this, because they don't want to accidentally make you a bit more rebellious. You can't think that everything you are told is right - it might as well be fiction - and I did at first view the anti-school movement with suspicion, but that doesn't mean everything is a lie. Proof is needed, and we (the anti-school movement) do in fact suffer from a lack of truth, but that is not because we make things up, instead it's because not enough people speak up. It's because of fear. Brainwashing. Threats.

You get my point.

[mrtuesday]

Newtown Wrote:Facts? Says the one that endlessly swears in their posts and strokes their own ego.

Might as well post might argument again:

Newtown Wrote:"But it's for your own good" is a oft-heard excuse for compulsory schooling, but it's quite null when you think about it. All these news-making "quirks" about school aren't limited to the things people are brave enough to talk about; in fact these kinds of incidents happen much more often. It's just that the students are too brainwashed into believing that's it all right and "hey, they tell us it's regular routine, so why not?" Fear is instilled on to students. They don't want them to rebel and see the truth, so they hide it with mirrors and wires, and threaten anyone who tries to uncover and spread the facts with a suspension or - oh no! expulsion.

Just because someone says "you" can't stop "it" doesn't mean "it" can't be stopped. It just means it's going to take more than one person or a group of persons to stop "it". Sure, there will never be a "revolution" in my (or most anyone else here's) lifetime, but that doesn't mean you can't give up the good fight. The whole system can't be overhauled, but little parts - bit by bit - can be fixed up to at least make some people happy.

But not surprisingly, they never tell you this, because they don't want to accidentally make you a bit more rebellious. You can't think that everything you are told is right - it might as well be fiction - and I did at first view the anti-school movement with suspicion, but that doesn't mean everything is a lie. Proof is needed, and we (the anti-school movement) do in fact suffer from a lack of truth, but that is not because we make things up, instead it's because not enough people speak up. It's because of fear. Brainwashing. Threats.

You get my point.

I wouldn't be swearing if I wasn't being called out as a troll minutes after I joined this damned website just because my beliefs are different than yours. There is nothing inherently wrong with the way school is designed. Nine periods, each dedicated to a different subject, with instructors in those fields teaching students what we as a society have deemed important to their ability to function in society and ultimately become educated. Exasperating the meager flaws in this design and claiming that the entire institution is evil is not only woefully incorrect but it signifies a striking lack of mental acumen.

You see, we were trying to help you all along. You were just too stubborn. You cower under the guise of nonconformist doctrine and empty statements without suggesting any reasonable educational reforms. There is no truth being hidden by "mirrors and wires." That's why disrupting their already difficult job of teaching the masses with propaganda and walkouts is dismissed as nonsense, as it rightfully should. There is no climate of fear, no secret machinations. What would you do if you were in charge of teaching a thousand students and a few of them started to question not only your qualifications but your moral fibre, sacrificing not only their own education but detracting from their peers' as well?

"It" shouldn't be stopped. Reformed yes, but ill-conceived protests and passing out flyers will not help educate anyone. Schools encourage critical thinking. My teachers were more than willing to listen to well-reasoned arguments because they wanted to help their students become the best they can be.

There is no "good fight" and to say that there is romanticizes insolence. People who aren't learning anything with school would be learning even less without. The only brainwashing here is going on in this site's little protective bubble of delusion. You approach this "anti-school movement" like it's a cult. "Everyone but us is wrong, and if you don't listen, you're nothing but a sheep."

Mate, I'm only trying to help. Were you in my position, you would just as frustrated.

[Rebelnerd]

There's a lot I could say in this thread, and a lot I want to say but probably shouldn't due to our desperate push to keep things civil. But if the other people here (TrueAnarchist excluded) who've laid out some thoughtful refutations didn't change your mind, I doubt I will. So I'll try to keep it relatively short, if not sweet.
I don't buy your story about "maturing" for a second. If someone is causing you harm or infringing on your human rights, you don't "mature" out of it. Nor do I think that you "cracked" or got brainwashed, or any Orwellian shit like that. Using those buzzwords would be a cop-out, and, to be honest, it would be going to easy on you.
Reading between the lines, it sounds to me like you just got lucky. One thing you said was absolutely correct: your school experiance wasn't bad at all. All you had to motivate you was theory and politics, and once you went up against someone who could argue effectively for the other side, you realized that you, personally, had nothing with which to reinforce your beliefs. You accuse us of extrapolating the flaws of a few bad schools to every building in the country, but ironically you've done the same thing in reverse. While looking back at your own memories and realizing that they weren't so bad, you assume that it's been like that for all of us. I'd like to tell you that that's bullshit.

Look, do you seriously think I'm here because I hate homework, tests, and unfair teachers? I actually don't give a shit about any of that. They're nuisances, nothing more. Just petty indignities that could probably be fixed with enough studies and petitioning. I can't speak for the other members of this site, who I'm sure have their own horror stories to tell, but can tell you that I'm here because I saw with my own eyes how fucked up the system is, and once you've seen that, it is impossible to go back. I don't need a Gatto book to motivate me, all I've got to do is look at the scar I've still got from two years ago to remind myself why we're doing this. If it happened once, it can happen again. When a person has the kind of power that schools have over students, anything can happen. Even if it didn't happen to you.

If someone else would like to provide a list of all the terrible wrongs in our society that would still be around if people had decided "you can't change the system," that would be excellent. All I have left to say is that my sister is starting middle school in the fall, and I would burn that buildling to the ground before I let her experiance some of the things I saw.

[Milk2Go]

Killjoy Wrote:I wouldn't be swearing if I wasn't being called out as a troll minutes after I joined this damned website just because my beliefs are different than yours. There is nothing inherently wrong with the way school is designed. Nine periods, each dedicated to a different subject, with instructors in those fields teaching students what we as a society have deemed important to their ability to function in society and ultimately become educated. Exasperating the meager flaws in this design and claiming that the entire institution is evil is not only woefully incorrect but it signifies a striking lack of mental acumen.

You see, we were trying to help you all along. You were just too stubborn. You cower under the guise of nonconformist doctrine and empty statements without suggesting any reasonable educational reforms. There is no truth being hidden by "mirrors and wires." That's why disrupting their already difficult job of teaching the masses with propaganda and walkouts is dismissed as nonsense, as it rightfully should. There is no climate of fear, no secret machinations. What would you do if you were in charge of teaching a thousand students and a few of them started to question not only your qualifications but your moral fibre, sacrificing not only their own education but detracting from their peers' as well?

"It" shouldn't be stopped. Reformed yes, but ill-conceived protests and passing out flyers will not help educate anyone. Schools encourage critical thinking. My teachers were more than willing to listen to well-reasoned arguments because they wanted to help their students become the best they can be.

There is no "good fight" and to say that there is romanticizes insolence. People who aren't learning anything with school would be learning even less without. The only brainwashing here is going on in this site's little protective bubble of delusion. You approach this "anti-school movement" like it's a cult. "Everyone but us is wrong, and if you don't listen, you're nothing but a sheep."

Mate, I'm only trying to help. Were you in my position, you would just as frustrated.

You don't get it, do you? Let me rephrase what I said:

I.
DON'T.
WANT.
"HELP".

And I'm sure nobody else wants it, either.

[Sociopath]

Killjoy=Conformist Hyppocrite Jackass

what about the whole 'this will be my last post' sentence?
ur fucking stupid cunt

[returnal]

TrueAnarchist Wrote:Killjoy=Conformist Hyppocrite Jackass

what about the whole 'this will be my last post' sentence?
ur fucking stupid cunt

Being a immature dick just proves Killjoy's statements.

[Sociopath]

Newtown Wrote:

TrueAnarchist Wrote:Killjoy=Conformist Hyppocrite Jackass

what about the whole 'this will be my last post' sentence?
ur fucking stupid cunt

Being a immature dick just proves Killjoy's statements.

DAMMIT NEWTOWN, YOU NOOB! dont u see, he's trying to turn us against eachother DONT FALL FOR IT

its the oldest trick in the book

its also an inside job

[Rebelnerd]

TA. Dude. SHUT THE FUCK UP. You are contributing nothing to this and making it harder for the people who actually want to talk with this guy.

[Sociopath]

Rebelnerd Wrote:TA. Dude. SHUT THE FUCK UP. You are contributing nothing to this and making it harder for the people who actually want to talk with this guy.

NOT YOU TOO!

Soon I'll be the only one left :>_>: :<_<:

CALL SOULRISER!

[NowhereWoman]

Sir, congratulations.
You've found a way to live with something many people have found difficult; school.
There are many ways people try to get through the hardships of school.
Yours is to accept it.
That's fine, okay? Ignore the flaming, your opinion is worth listening to.
Thank you for being so polite and smart about it in your first post and not just being 'AI GO 2 SKOOL I GET EDUCATEON, etc'.
Just know that there are some people, myself included, who disagree, and that's okay too.
Please accept our opinions and beliefs about school, and we(well, those of us who can talk about opposing viewpoints without screaming at people) we will accept yours.

I just want to address a few things that you mentioned. Note: I'm just stating my opinions.

Quote:I presented the shrink with an eloquent, well-researched argument about how school fails to equip our children for the future, how true learning can only result from dedicated autodidactism, how the emphasis on testing detracts from our innate love of learning for its own merit… She diagnosed me with depression and wanted to put me on TCAs. I declined.

“You can’t change the school system,” she told me.

This is getting into youth rights, in my opinion.
Would an adult who didn't like his job or was extremely stressed about it be diagnosed with depression and asked to take medication?
No, they'd be told to weigh the pros and cons of their job, and then decide whether to stay or quit.
Why should it be any different with children and school? After all, I've been told many times 'while you're a child, SCHOOL is your JOB.'
And there was always a voice in my head saying: then why aren't I getting paid?
If i told them this, they'd say, 'You're getting an education!'
Yeah, I don't think so. The only thing I get from school is stress. Stress from trying to get good grades, worrying about bad grades, stupid kids, stupid teachers, this, that, not having enough time, that lab I forgot at home, if my shoes are okay for dress code, la dee da.
Even when I get good grades, I freak out if I get a C on a test.
Nothing I do in school can lower the stress. Nothing I've tried makes me want to get up at 5 in the morning and go someplace I dislike to be told to do this or that by adults who don't know me. It's like having a job you hate and not being able to quit.

Quote:I had deluded myself into thinking that I was being psychologically molested every day because I was simply too lazy to do my schoolwork and I was looking for an excuse, an easy way out.

We ARE looking for a way out. But not out of work, out of the constant stress school puts us through.
And why are we lazy for not wanting to do work we didn't choose to do?
I mean, think of the saying 'if you don't vote, you can't complain.'
If you chose not to vote for the candidate you wanted, you can't complain if he doesn't win. You didn't work to help him, so you don't have the right to bitch.
But wait a minute...we didn't sign up for 12 years of our life in school. In other words, we didn't even have a CHANCE to vote. (which we don't, actually) So how dare they tell us not to complain, to do the work they tell us to without even fully explaining things to us or letting us have a choice?
This arguement seems trivial, I know, to someone who doesn't have our opinions, but I'm trying to get you to understand our point of view here.

Quote:all in all school's primary aim is to help you.

Well, we didn't ask for their help, and we mourn for the years wasted in a system we didn't understand, don't respect(after all, they don't show any respect for us, even when we give them chances), and only causes us confusion, stress, and pain.


I

Quote:In hindsight, school wasn't bad after all. I wouldn't be who I am today without the memories, the friendships, and most importantly the things I learned along the way. The idea that the average person is not only capable but motivated enough to pursue education of its own merit is romantic but honestly false. Homeschooling/Unschooling inevitably causes more problems than it solves, and I'm glad that my parents continued my public education.

Oh my god, really? I can't learn nothin on my own?
(throws guitar out window, burns books, runs back to school)
"TEACH ME OH GODS OF KNOWLEDGE!!!"
^sarcasm.
The idea that the average person is not only capable but motivated enough to pursue education of its own merit is romantic, plausible, and VERY possible but unlikely in a world where supposedly learning of any sort ends at 18 or 22.
I've learned my most valuable lessons outside of school, from playing guitar, reading, trips with my family, learning how to argue without flaming on the internet, etc.
Not saying school is completely useless, I mean, i make my friends there(only because school iss the only place other than home I go every day)
If you are right, than Abraham Lincoln was an imbecile, Bill Gates is a retard, and Albert Einstein was a worthless lazy drop out. You know how Albert Einstein got into the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology? He dropped out of high school and STUDIED OUTSIDE OF SCHOOL.
Note: not ALONE, not WITH NO HELP, but OUTSIDE OF SCHOOL.
We can all learn from others who have experience, but wouldn't a physicist be able to teach use more than a physics teacher? I mean, has a physics TEACHER actually worked on physics experiments outside of the classroom? Is it his living? Does he love the subject? Is it his passion?
Maybe. Maybe not.
Both possibilities are plausible, I'm just saying that I can't learn from people who hate their job, and I can't do my 'job' well if I hate it myself.


Thanks for your thought-out post, it's good for us to have an opposing viewpoint, it makes us more humble and makes us reexamine our beliefs.
Mine have stayed the same, but thanks for not being a flamer.






EDIT!
The above was writtern BEFORE reading your second post, Killjoy. It's sad to me that, for having such a well written first post, your second was extremely immature and basically consisted of insulting our intelligence while pushing your beliefs on us. I am keeping my post above on this thread simply because it's good for someone to have feedback that isn't completely fueled by anger.
But I don't appreciate your comments to the other members of the board, and I AM angry about that, but I'd like to further an intelligent peaceful conversation, if you would stop acting like we need to be saved and that you and school are the only way anyone can ever have a happy life.
AND STOP INSULTING PEOPLE.

[mrtuesday]

TrueAnarchist Wrote:Killjoy=Conformist Hyppocrite Jackass

what about the whole 'this will be my last post' sentence?
ur fucking stupid cunt

I can't leave this topic to die in good conscience. Believe me, I would if I could.

Rebelnerd Wrote:I don't buy your story about "maturing" for a second. If someone is causing you harm or infringing on your human rights, you don't "mature" out of it. Nor do I think that you "cracked" or got brainwashed, or any Orwellian shit like that. Using those buzzwords would be a cop-out, and, to be honest, it would be going to easy on you.

Calling the average school a human rights violation is ridiculous. I don't doubt for a second that there are exceptions and that some schools are indeed terrible places, but these anomalies do not grant you license to write off the entire institution. In the six schools I attended throughout my academic career, I saw none of the atrocities you all insist are so ubiquitous. None of the violence, none of the bullying, none of the "brainwashing." I just saw a bunch of people learning things in one place, being introduced to new concepts and ideas, and a great many of them excelling in areas of study they never even knew existed before.

I appreciate that you aren't resorting to loaded terms, though.

Look, I want things fixed just as much as you do. It's just that we disagree about what exactly is broken.

Rebelnerd Wrote:Reading between the lines, it sounds to me like you just got lucky. One thing you said was absolutely correct: your school experiance wasn't bad at all. All you had to motivate you was theory and politics, and once you went up against someone who could argue effectively for the other side, you realized that you, personally, had nothing with which to reinforce your beliefs. You accuse us of extrapolating the flaws of a few bad schools to every building in the country, but ironically you've done the same thing in reverse. While looking back at your own memories and realizing that they weren't so bad, you assume that it's been like that for all of us. I'd like to tell you that that's bullshit.

We have to respectfully disagree, but then you should be protesting about what goes on in the schools and not protesting the schools themselves as it seems this website promotes.

Rebelnerd Wrote:Look, do you seriously think I'm here because I hate homework, tests, and unfair teachers? I actually don't give a shit about any of that. They're nuisances, nothing more. Just petty indignities that could probably be fixed with enough studies and petitioning. I can't speak for the other members of this site, who I'm sure have their own horror stories to tell, but can tell you that I'm here because I saw with my own eyes how fucked up the system is, and once you've seen that, it is impossible to go back. I don't need a Gatto book to motivate me, all I've got to do is look at the scar I've still got from two years ago to remind myself why we're doing this. If it happened once, it can happen again. When a person has the kind of power that schools have over students, anything can happen. Even if it didn't happen to you.

I don't doubt for a second that you have had some terrible experiences, and I express my condolences to you. I just think that we're all going about this in the wrong way. If I may, what exactly happened to you?

Rebelnerd Wrote:If someone else would like to provide a list of all the terrible wrongs in our society that would still be around if people had decided "you can't change the system," that would be excellent. All I have left to say is that my sister is starting middle school in the fall, and I would burn that buildling to the ground before I let her experiance some of the things I saw.

It's just that this is one system that we don't need to change. Of all the things wrong with the world today, from the economic downturn to drug cartels and gang warfare, we shouldn't be picking fights with the good guys. The few aberrations in the education need to be dealt with, but not the education system as a whole.

mangareadr Wrote:Sir, congratulations.
You've found a way to live with something many people have found difficult; school.
There are many ways people try to get through the hardships of school.
Yours is to accept it.
That's fine, okay? Ignore the flaming, your opinion is worth listening to.

I thank you for your decency.

mangareadr Wrote:Just know that there are some people, myself included, who disagree, and that's okay too.
Please accept our opinions and beliefs about school, and we(well, those of us who can talk about opposing viewpoints without screaming at people) we will accept yours.

Of course.

mangareadr Wrote:This is getting into youth rights, in my opinion.
Would an adult who didn't like his job or was extremely stressed about it be diagnosed with depression and asked to take medication?
No, they'd be told to weigh the pros and cons of their job, and then decide whether to stay or quit.
Why should it be any different with children and school? After all, I've been told many times 'while you're a child, SCHOOL is your JOB.'
And there was always a voice in my head saying: then why aren't I getting paid?
If i told them this, they'd say, 'You're getting an education!'

As idiotic as it sounds, it's true. You're being given life skills and knowledge in return for tax dollars, a worthwhile trade in my own opinion. It just opens up opportunities. That being said, some are less conducive to its methods than others and I respect them too. I firmly believe that people whose needs are not being met by school should be given the option to pursue other avenues of education, but those people are few and far between. It's just that in the microcosm of school-survival, these people are present in greater numbers, making the problem seem larger than it is.

mangareadr Wrote:Yeah, I don't think so. The only thing I get from school is stress. Stress from trying to get good grades, worrying about bad grades, stupid kids, stupid teachers, this, that, not having enough time, that lab I forgot at home, if my shoes are okay for dress code, la dee da.
Even when I get good grades, I freak out if I get a C on a test.
Nothing I do in school can lower the stress. Nothing I've tried makes me want to get up at 5 in the morning and go someplace I dislike to be told to do this or that by adults who don't know me. It's like having a job you hate and not being able to quit.

That's just it, though. School helps many people learn how to deal with stress in a controlled environment so that when they truly have to deal with stress in the real world, they will be better-equipped. It's a training ground. Though there are some people who prefer to play things by ear, it's a failsafe.

mangareadr Wrote:We ARE looking for a way out. But not out of work, out of the constant stress school puts us through.
And why are we lazy for not wanting to do work we didn't choose to do?
I mean, think of the saying 'if you don't vote, you can't complain.'
If you chose not to vote for the candidate you wanted, you can't complain if he doesn't win. You didn't work to help him, so you don't have the right to bitch.
But wait a minute...we didn't sign up for 12 years of our life in school. In other words, we didn't even have a CHANCE to vote. (which we don't, actually) So how dare they tell us not to complain, to do the work they tell us to without even fully explaining things to us or letting us have a choice?
This arguement seems trivial, I know, to someone who doesn't have our opinions, but I'm trying to get you to understand our point of view here.

Indeed, you didn't have a choice. But education is too serious a matter to leave unsanctioned. If you gave a child a gun, would you be confident that he wouldn't end up shooting himself in the foot? I realize this is a very poor metaphor, but the same principle applies. Kids don't always know everything; that's what we are here for. To look out for and protect them.

mangareadr Wrote:Well, we didn't ask for their help, and we mourn for the years wasted in a system we didn't understand, don't respect(after all, they don't show any respect for us, even when we give them chances), and only causes us confusion, stress, and pain.

This confusion, stress, and pain occurs in a very select group of people, and even then you have counselors, guidance members, and other peers to hear you out and help you. Not to mention your parents. Everyone needs a safety net to fall back on.

mangareadr Wrote:Oh my god, really? I can't learn nothin on my own?
(throws guitar out window, burns books, runs back to school)
"TEACH ME OH GODS OF KNOWLEDGE!!!"
^sarcasm.
The idea that the average person is not only capable but motivated enough to pursue education of its own merit is romantic, plausible, and VERY possible but unlikely in a world where supposedly learning of any sort ends at 18 or 22.
I've learned my most valuable lessons outside of school, from playing guitar, reading, trips with my family, learning how to argue without flaming on the internet, etc.

People such as you or I, or many of the people on this website are entirely capable of autodidactism, but the question is whether we would be motivated enough. It's better to leave it as an accoutrement to school rather than a replacement, just in case things don't proceed as planned. We both know that, given the choice, most kids would stay at home playing Call of Duty 4 rather than read about the Renaissance of their own accord.

mangareadr Wrote:Thanks for your thought-out post, it's good for us to have an opposing viewpoint, it makes us more humble and makes us reexamine our beliefs.
Mine have stayed the same, but thanks for not being a flamer.

Thanks, mate.

[Sociopath]

meh, bullshit

At least with Anarchy we wouldn't have school

[returnal]

Killjoy Wrote:

mangareadr Wrote:Yeah, I don't think so. The only thing I get from school is stress. Stress from trying to get good grades, worrying about bad grades, stupid kids, stupid teachers, this, that, not having enough time, that lab I forgot at home, if my shoes are okay for dress code, la dee da.
Even when I get good grades, I freak out if I get a C on a test.
Nothing I do in school can lower the stress. Nothing I've tried makes me want to get up at 5 in the morning and go someplace I dislike to be told to do this or that by adults who don't know me. It's like having a job you hate and not being able to quit.

That's just it, though. School helps many people learn how to deal with stress in a controlled environment so that when they truly have to deal with stress in the real world, they will be better-equipped. It's a training ground. Though there are some people who prefer to play things by ear, it's a failsafe.

Yup, sounds like a failsafe to me, eh?

[Milk2Go]

Killjoy: so you're saying that forcing someone to do something against their own will and violating their rights and giving them inhumane amounts of stress is okay as long as they say that it's all good for you?

In that case, how would you like it if I forced you into a box and kept you in there, and you couldn't do anything to defend yourself? I'd say it was to make you a better person. Does that mean it's okay?

[mrtuesday]

Newtown Wrote:Yup, sounds like a failsafe to me, eh?

There have always been insane people. In every school shooting case, there are drugs, poor parenting, and a multitude of other things involved. If these monsters weren't shooting up schools they'd be shooting up libraries.

BobManPerson Wrote:Killjoy: so you're saying that forcing someone to do something against their own will and violating their rights and giving them inhumane amounts of stress is okay as long as they say that it's all good for you?

In that case, how would you like it if I forced you into a box and kept you in there, and you couldn't do anything to defend yourself? I'd say it was to make you a better person. Does that mean it's okay?

The obvious difference is that those who ask you to stay in school are actually looking out for you. School is not a cardboard box, mate. Education is not a human rights violation; it's a human rights imperative.