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To everyone who joined these forums at some point, and got discouraged by the negativity and left after a while (or even got literally scared off): I'm sorry.

I wasn't good enough at encouraging people to be kinder, and removing people who refuse to be kind. Encouraging people is hard, and removing people creates conflict, and I hate conflict... so that's why I wasn't better at it.

I was a very, very sensitive teen. The atmosphere of this forum as it is now, if it had existed in 1996, would probably have upset me far more than it would have helped.

I can handle quite a lot of negativity and even abuse now, but that isn't the point. I want to help people. I want to help the people who need it the most, and I want to help people like the 1996 version of me.

I'm still figuring out the best way to do that, but as it is now, these forums are doing more harm than good, and I can't keep running them.

Thank you to the few people who have tried to understand my point of view so far. I really, really appreciate you guys. You are beautiful people.

Everyone else: If after everything I've said so far, you still don't understand my motivations, I think it's unlikely that you will. We're just too different. Maybe someday in the future it might make sense, but until then, there's no point in arguing about it. I don't have the time or the energy for arguing anymore. I will focus my time and energy on people who support me, and those who need help.

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You guys don't get it do you?
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Asder Miller Offline
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Post: #1
You guys don't get it do you?

Taken from a teacher's post. Its long don't say I didn't warn you:

"As a former educator, I can personally attest to the fact that it is an extremely difficult and demanding job. I have seen with my own eyes that schools are constantly overburdened, underfunded, and face constant challenges from students (of all kinds), uncooperative parents, and even the community at large. It's very easy to say that schools should be redesigned. But until you've experienced it for yourself, I think that this criticism is unqualified and comes from a very cynical place. There are lots of problems in the schools. But a lot of wonderful, productive things happen there as well. Your rather irresponsible statement assumes that every child has a perfect homelife, and that sending them to school is doing them a disservice. I have witness that often, the opposite is true. There are some children who live in heart-breaking circumstances, and going to school is the best thing they have in their life.

Do you have any idea how difficult it is, never mind teaching concepts to students, just getting them to be still and quiet long enough for them to absorb anythng you have to say. It is a skill and an art. And I defy you to try it one day. And while you're doing it, I challenge you to give each student accurate and considerate attention and not treat the entire classroom as one collective group. Day in, and day out for nine months. All the while dealing with profanity, theft, lying, unresponsiveness, and the occasional outburst of violence. 30 students an hour, 180 students a day. Some of them don't speak english. Some of them have dissabilities. Remember their names, track their progress, contact their parents (not always possible,) and always be polite, professional, and never offend anyone's political, religious, or egocentric sensibilities.

TRY IT.

And also, you talk as though obedience automatically means oppression. That is not true. Obedience, at one point or another is integral to the teacher/student relationship. At some point, the soldier obeys his/her superior, the apprentice obeys his/her master-when it is appropriate. And you think obedience has no place in the real world? Can you imagine running a business where the employees are constantly innovating everything? It would be chaos. At some point, there has to be rules, boundaries.

You want to talk about setting people up for failure? Let's talk about all the rich corporations want the schools to fail so that they have armies of obedient consumers with no analytical skills, and no knowledge of history, and no voice to communicate with. Those same voices who use the pretext of ?freedom? to destroy democracy and revert to feudalism. That's where the ?entrepenuereal? road leads.

You know who does have excellent schools? The Chinese. Communists. Did you know that within the next ten years or so, they will surpass the amount of patents held by the U.S.? They allready surpass us in patents registered every year. There are more honor students in India than there are students in the U.S. It's a very real problem. Because while those students are studying their asses off, American students are dicking around on Facebook, and texting each other while they mock their teachers.

So, in conclusion. If you have seen and experienced the things that I have, you would not be so quick to condemn the educational system as ?immoral.? You wouldn't say ?most teachers have never set foot in a school as an educator.? You wouldn't indulge in sophomoric wordplay about how ?school? and ?education? are very different things. Very clever. We get it. Ha ha. Congratulations, you can talk the talk. Now go walk the walk."


By Al Romero
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05-26-2011 07:51 AM
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Absnt Offline
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Post: #2
Re: You guys don't get it do you?

You dense motherfucker. You DENSE, DENSE, fucking DENSE MOTHERFUCKER. Are you seriously going to continue this useless fucking tirade you're on? Grow up and think for your goddamn self for five minutes. I get this same ass shit from my teacher every fucking day when I turn in essay after essay refuting his points, which, by the way, are never responded to in any logical fashion. He always responds to my arguments with absolutely roundabout avoidance in the form of speeches and letters like this crap you call reason. Let's break it down, shall we? I'm sorry, but I cannot take theses types of bullshit arguments any more, so here it goes...
Quote:"As a former educator, I can personally attest to the fact that it is an extremely difficult and demanding job."
Nobody is arguing that being a teacher is easy. I've seen student teachers quit, and teachers break down in tears due to the stress. We know it's not an easy job, especially for close minded morons like the author who comply with the absolutely rigid and crap rules they are "forced" to hold up.
Quote:I have seen with my own eyes that schools are constantly overburdened, underfunded,
Everyone in the entire fucking United States of America knows this. This essay basically says that we are using platitude like behavior in our writings and ideas. Well right back at you, dumb ass, you've done the same fucking thing in this sentence.
Quote:and face constant challenges from students (of all kinds), uncooperative parents, and even the community at large.
Mother of god, I'm going to have to refute each sentence, and in this case, fractions of sentences. And why do you think that is? Do you think it's because we dislike learning? Do you think it's because we hate you, or the staff? NO. It's because the system doesn't fucking work, and it's built around a retarded bureaucracy that is trying to teach us shit WE DON'T NEED TO KNOW.

Quote: It's very easy to say that schools should be redesigned. But until you've experienced it for yourself, I think that this criticism is unqualified and comes from a very cynical place.
You moron. All facets of our society, including educators, principals, educational analysts, ex-teachers with 20+ years of teaching experience, and more believe that the educational institutions in America are failing. They all agree that it has to be redesigned. Your going to sit there and spout this shit that "We don't know what it's like, and it's hard to change things?" in the face of that? You idiot, teachers aren't even the ones who CAN reform the system. It's the fucking lawmakers. It's not like we're asking YOU to reform the system, we're demanding that THEY do it. Platitude, platitude, platitude. Fucking hypocrite.
Quote:There are lots of problems in the schools. But a lot of wonderful, productive things happen there as well.
Like WHAT? Destructive relationships? Perceived epiphanies that are forgotten by the end of the day by the students? Force feeding facts that statistically WILL be forgotten into innumerable students heads? What "wonderful" things are happening? I'm experiencing schooling as well, from the receiving end, and I can assure you that there's nothing "wonderful" about what's happening here.

Quote:Your rather irresponsible statement assumes that every child has a perfect homelife, and that sending them to school is doing them a disservice. I have witness that often, the opposite is true. There are some children who live in heart-breaking circumstances, and going to school is the best thing they have in their life.
If you spent even five fucking minutes checking our arguments out, you'd know we are offering alternatives that would be 10x better than the compulsory hell hole that we are dealing with today. Besides, if you want to improve horrid home conditions, let's improve horrid home conditions, not send kids from one bad place to another because the second bad place is the lesser of two evils. Jesus Christ, are you seriously that stupid?
Quote:Do you have any idea how difficult it is, never mind teaching concepts to students, just getting them to be still and quiet long enough for them to absorb anythng you have to say.
NO. And I hope I never have to. Almost everything you teach WILL be forgotten. A lot of what we learn is forgotten over the summer. Now, think about how much they will retain after a year or two of learning something new. They don't need, nor want to remember what they learned before unless it's absolutely necessary for what they are learning now. And when they're done that, they'll forget that too. Why the fuck should I feel sympathy for you because you chose a profession that requires you to FORCE innocent individuals to sit through dull, retarded, and useless hours of their lives in order to receive something that is virtually valueless.
Quote:It is a skill and an art. And I defy you to try it one day. And while you're doing it, I challenge you to give each student accurate and considerate attention and not treat the entire classroom as one collective group.
Why the fuck would I ever want to do this? It's forced, doesn't accomplish anything, and is a waste of time. I DON'T CARE HOW HARD IT IS TO FORCE PEOPLE TO DO THINGS, I CARE ABOUT WHY THE RECEIVERS OF THE "EDUCATION" ARE BEING FORCED TO GO THROUGH IT.
Quote:Day in, and day out for nine months. All the while dealing with profanity, theft, lying, unresponsiveness, and the occasional outburst of violence. 30 students an hour, 180 students a day. Some of them don't speak english. Some of them have dissabilities. Remember their names, track their progress, contact their parents (not always possible,) and always be polite, professional, and never offend anyone's political, religious, or egocentric sensibilities.
You truly are a fucking idiot. (This is copy pasted? The guy can't spell for shit.) Stop looking for sympathy, and ask yourself why you are doing what you are doing, and if it really helps like the rest of the sensible people in the world. And to add to this, why in the hell do you care about profanity? You moron, no one cares about your beliefs on why certain words shouldn't be used because they are somehow "bad".

Quote:TRY IT.
Fuck no.

Quote:And also, you talk as though obedience automatically means oppression. That is not true. Obedience, at one point or another is integral to the teacher/student relationship. At some point, the soldier obeys his/her superior, the apprentice obeys his/her master-when it is appropriate. And you think obedience has no place in the real world? Can you imagine running a business where the employees are constantly innovating everything? It would be chaos. At some point, there has to be rules, boundaries.

Jesus Christ, are you THAT stupid? We are FORCED to do the things we do, while in the "real world" anyone can quit at any time. It's somewhat free. We have no choice here. No one gives us the time of day, and no one respects us. We can't just leave, and we can't speak out against the authoritarian fucking system that is keeping us in school for virtually no reason.

Quote:You want to talk about setting people up for failure? Let's talk about all the rich corporations want the schools to fail so that they have armies of obedient consumers with no analytical skills, and no knowledge of history, and no voice to communicate with. Those same voices who use the pretext of ?freedom? to destroy democracy and revert to feudalism. That's where the ?entrepenuereal? road leads.
Do I even need to fucking go on? Well fuck you, I will. THERE ARE ALTERNATIVES TO COMPULSORY EDUCATION, and they are MUCH better than your shit ass system. And your fucking deluded if you think schools teach analytical skills. They fucking DESTROY analytical skills. And no voice to communicate with? Are you retarded? I don't know anyone who learned to speak in school, and very few who learned to read there. We would of learned to write outside of school as well. Especially if the alternatives were put in place like we're suggesting. You fucking retard, look at our viewpoints before spewing this faggatory.

Quote:You know who does have excellent schools? The Chinese. Communists. Did you know that within the next ten years or so, they will surpass the amount of patents held by the U.S.? They allready surpass us in patents registered every year. There are more honor students in India than there are students in the U.S. It's a very real problem. Because while those students are studying their asses off, American students are dicking around on Facebook, and texting each other while they mock their teachers.
So you suggest continuing with more of the same to fix this? You are intolerably stupid. You should NOT be a fucking teacher. What's the matter with you?

Quote:So, in conclusion. If you have seen and experienced the things that I have, you would not be so quick to condemn the educational system as ?immoral.?
I know, because if I lived your life, I'd be fucking retarded too.

Quote: You wouldn't say ?most teachers have never set foot in a school as an educator.?
What the fuck are you even saying? We all know some far and in between teachers are good, and help us learn, but we also acknowledge that they are a minority and that they can't teach us shit compared to what we could be learning.

Quote:You wouldn't indulge in sophomoric wordplay about how ?school? and ?education? are very different things. Very clever. We get it. Ha ha. Congratulations, you can talk the talk. Now go walk the walk."
That didn't even make sense. Your the one using platitude, ass hole, not us. You didn't even bother to study our viewpoints.

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05-26-2011 08:46 AM
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Miller0700 Offline
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Post: #3
Re: You guys don't get it do you?

Read this Asder, you fucking idiot: viewtopic.php?f=17&t=28758

Previously known as Derchin.
05-26-2011 09:51 AM
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UnschoolShqiponjë Offline
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Post: #4
Re: You guys don't get it do you?

Derchin Wrote:Read this Asder, you fucking idiot: viewtopic.php?f=17&t=28758

I don't think Asder wrote that... It was some guy named Al.

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05-26-2011 10:04 AM
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Miller0700 Offline
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Re: You guys don't get it do you?

UnschoolShqiponjë Wrote:
Derchin Wrote:Read this Asder, you fucking idiot: viewtopic.php?f=17&t=28758

I don't think Asder wrote that... It was some guy named Al.
Oh well. Both of them need to read it.

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05-26-2011 10:19 AM
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Asder Miller Offline
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Post: #6
You guys don't get it do you? (Part 2)

Here's his idea of a better school system. This is on another post if you want to read this seperatly:

"For instance. I worked for three years in classrooms with children. And it seems that you haven't done that. I am talking about direct knowledge about the subject you are talking about. So excuse me, but it sounds like I am inherently more qualified to speak about it than you are. That's not to say that your ideas are not valid, they are just uninformed, untested by the crucible of reality. I think that if you ever tried to implement them, you will find that it's not as easy as you think.

I can safely say that the majority of educators go into the field thinking that they are going to help, they are going to do things differently, and that every thing's going to be great. Nobody goes into education saying, "gosh, I'm going to get those children to obey and to follow my orders." They go in thinking, "I'm going to share a part of myself with these kids and teach them new things." But like I said, it is a lot easier said than done.

So, you think that the education system can be improved without adding new funding. Let me tell you something about my experience as a teacher. There were meetings, no less than once a week,where all of the teachers in the school got together and brainstormed on ideas on how to improve the services to students. And let me tell you, they came up with lots of ideas. And every time they thought os something new for their students, you know what it meant? It meant more work for the teachers. There's a wide-spread perception that teachers only work until 3 pm. I'll tell you right now, that's a lie. I was in my classroom regularly until 7pm sometimes 9, grading papers, writing curriculum. I didn't get compensated for that extra time. And I spent most of my Sundays in the same manner.

So there you have an army of professionals working away, day in and day out, putting in personal time just to do a better job, working to solve these problems that you criticize glibly. (And by the way, there are techers who share your political beleifs. Don't think that all teachers are all, bleeding-heart liberals who hug trees. In fact most of them are very pragmatic.) So you can imagine how it makes me feel when someone who to my knowledge has never lifted a finger to educate a child, let alone a special needs child, points to the whole thing and says, "It's all garbage. It all needs to go."

And about the qualifications that you so casually dismiss. Yes, it's true, brilliance doesn't necessarily arise from an educational institution, and often an outsider does change everything with their sheer talent. Like Noam Chompsky. But for the rest of us puny mortals, we gain our knowledge, not from birth, but from focused study within those institutions that are available to us. And the certification that I received came from a focused study of academic standards, adolescence, and literacy. Do you have any idea of the work that goes into constructing a lesson plan? Are you familiar with the state-mandated standards that are required to be cited in these plans? Teachers aren't just a bunch of drooling automatons. They are real people, with families, and aspirations, and problems of their own that they frequently put aside to help their students.

Can it be improved? Yes. As an experienced educator, I can immediately think of three things that can be done to address the problems you're talking about.

The first is smaller class sizes. As you pointed out, large, impersonal classes are unnatural, and create an atmosphere of bureaucracy. It's been proven that the human brain can only handle so many things at one time, so smaller class sizes ensure that students get more accurate, and personalized attention. Humans are come from a society of tribes. Tribal groups have shown to be beneficial emotionally and psychologically. I wish I could cite a source, but I cannot.

The second is after school programs. Student engagement has been shown to improve when students have an intrinsic interest in what they do at school, (not extrinsic rewards, i.e. money, prizes, etc. which have been shown to decrease interest in subject matter.) Afterschool programs, particularly student-led, student designed activities. I worked on a documentary about that very subject. They did everything from video game clubs, to talent shows, and mentoring programs.

The third is a vocational option curriculum for students that don't plan on going to college. Students would go apprentice at various jobs. Something like this allready exists in the form of R.O.P. R.O.P. teachers are required by the state, (of California) to have no less than five years of real-world experience.)"



by Al Romero
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05-26-2011 10:25 AM
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Asder Miller Offline
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Post: #7
You guys don't get it do you? (Part 2)

Disregard this. I deleted the second post.
05-26-2011 10:44 AM
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UnschoolShqiponjë Offline
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Post: #8
Re: You guys don't get it do you?

Derchin Wrote:
UnschoolShqiponjë Wrote:
Derchin Wrote:Read this Asder, you fucking idiot: viewtopic.php?f=17&t=28758

I don't think Asder wrote that... It was some guy named Al.
Oh wee. Both of them need to read it.

Oooh ok I just read some of his old posts.... I can see clearly now!

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05-26-2011 10:59 AM
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Absnt Offline
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Post: #9
Re: You guys don't get it do you? (Part 2)

I'm beginning to give up hope for you, Asder. Use your head.

Quote:"For instance. I worked for three years in classrooms with children. And it seems that you haven't done that. I am talking about direct knowledge about the subject you are talking about. So excuse me, but it sounds like I am inherently more qualified to speak about it than you are. That's not to say that your ideas are not valid, they are just uninformed, untested by the crucible of reality. I think that if you ever tried to implement them, you will find that it's not as easy as you think.
Teachers have absolutely NO sway over courses, the way schools are run, what books are purchased, the curriculum, or even what they themselves are allowed to teach. This dumbass thinks he is qualified to revamp the educational institutions because he taught students. Well, I'm a fucking student, and I'm telling you right fucking now that what he's been doing isn't fucking working. I'm the one who is receiving this education, and it fucking sucks. It's worthless. It's oppressive and it sucks.

Quote:I can safely say that the majority of educators go into the field thinking that they are going to help, they are going to do things differently, and that every thing's going to be great. Nobody goes into education saying, "gosh, I'm going to get those children to obey and to follow my orders." They go in thinking, "I'm going to share a part of myself with these kids and teach them new things." But like I said, it is a lot easier said than done.
Because your fucking FORCING them. Coercive education does not work.

Quote:So, you think that the education system can be improved without adding new funding. Let me tell you something about my experience as a teacher. There were meetings, no less than once a week,where all of the teachers in the school got together and brainstormed on ideas on how to improve the services to students. And let me tell you, they came up with lots of ideas. And every time they thought os something new for their students, you know what it meant? It meant more work for the teachers. There's a wide-spread perception that teachers only work until 3 pm. I'll tell you right now, that's a lie. I was in my classroom regularly until 7pm sometimes 9, grading papers, writing curriculum. I didn't get compensated for that extra time. And I spent most of my Sundays in the same manner.
Shut the fuck up right now. We here it every day from our goddamn teachers. "I have to stay late" "I have to come in on weekends" "Blah fucking blah its so hard for us." Nobody thinks it's fucking easy for teachers, and nobody thinks they only work during the day. Your patting yourself on the back, and that entire paragraph was irrelevant.

Quote:So there you have an army of professionals working away, day in and day out, putting in personal time just to do a better job, working to solve these problems that you criticize glibly. (And by the way, there are techers who share your political beleifs. Don't think that all teachers are all, bleeding-heart liberals who hug trees. In fact most of them are very pragmatic.) So you can imagine how it makes me feel when someone who to my knowledge has never lifted a finger to educate a child, let alone a special needs child, points to the whole thing and says, "It's all garbage. It all needs to go."
Again, YOU ARE DELUDING YOURSELF. No matter what you do in your classroom, the SYSTEM will NOT change. You don't have that much power. It's the fucking schoolboard, state, and federal government's problem. And stop going on about how you come up with all of these "brilliant ideas" with "tons of professionals". Your ideas are limited, and are confined by the system. Our ideas are radical and all encompassing of the entire fucking system. Have you ever stoped to think that compulsory education is retarded? Have you ever stoped to think that forcing people to do things is, as a matter of principal, fucking wrong?

Quote:And about the qualifications that you so casually dismiss. Yes, it's true, brilliance doesn't necessarily arise from an educational institution, and often an outsider does change everything with their sheer talent. Like Noam Chompsky. But for the rest of us puny mortals, we gain our knowledge, not from birth, but from focused study within those institutions that are available to us. And the certification that I received came from a focused study of academic standards, adolescence, and literacy. Do you have any idea of the work that goes into constructing a lesson plan? Are you familiar with the state-mandated standards that are required to be cited in these plans? Teachers aren't just a bunch of drooling automatons. They are real people, with families, and aspirations, and problems of their own that they frequently put aside to help their students.
There you go again. NOBODY CARES ABOUT HOW HARD YOU WORK TO OPPRESS STUDENTS WITH STUPID LESSON PLANS THAT ARE COMPULSORY AND BORING. Your retarded ass ideas of "adolescent teaching methods that work" which you learned in college and apparently created based on "experience" are worthless. You said it yourself, "STATE MANDATED SHIT." Why the fuck is education compulsory? Why are you contributing to FORCED "learning"? Hey jackass, we don't want you to sit around and think up mind games to try to get us to learn, we want you to LEAVE US THE FUCK ALONE. Nothing you do is going to help besides become more lax and let your students have as much leeway as possible. And stop painting yourself as some kind of public servant hero. Your just a fucking cog working in the system that FORCES COMPETENT PEOPLE to go somewhere for virtually NO reason.

Quote:Can it be improved? Yes. As an experienced educator, I can immediately think of three things that can be done to address the problems you're talking about.

The first is smaller class sizes. As you pointed out, large, impersonal classes are unnatural, and create an atmosphere of bureaucracy. It's been proven that the human brain can only handle so many things at one time, so smaller class sizes ensure that students get more accurate, and personalized attention. Humans are come from a society of tribes. Tribal groups have shown to be beneficial emotionally and psychologically. I wish I could cite a source, but I cannot.
Or maybe we could, you know, stop playing games for five seconds and get to the base of the problem. Sure, we may be able to be forcefed better if you can work on controlling 3 students instead of 5, but why the fuck would any of us want that? Then it's easier for you to oppress us and force us to fucking work on shit we won't remember. The answer is NOT to become more efficient at forcing us to do meaningless tasks, it's to become less authoritarian and allow us some goddamn freedom.

Quote:The second is after school programs. Student engagement has been shown to improve when students have an intrinsic interest in what they do at school, (not extrinsic rewards, i.e. money, prizes, etc. which have been shown to decrease interest in subject matter.) Afterschool programs, particularly student-led, student designed activities. I worked on a documentary about that very subject. They did everything from video game clubs, to talent shows, and mentoring programs.
Yeah, so why the fuck aren't we allowed to learn by our goddamn selves? Fuck your programs, we can learn on our own. Let us.

Quote:The third is a vocational option curriculum for students that don't plan on going to college. Students would go apprentice at various jobs. Something like this allready exists in the form of R.O.P. R.O.P. teachers are required by the state, (of California) to have no less than five years of real-world experience.)"
That's already in effect in a lot of schools, and yet we still aren't free. Fuck off. It's a good idea, but it's still compulsory and shit.


by Al Romero
http://www.squidoo.com/school_or_prison[/quote]

Blog I post to now:
http://blog.darknedgy.net

Edfreedom.org -- An organization for more freedom in education.
http://www.edfreedom.org/join-us/
05-26-2011 11:03 AM
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Thought Crimnal Offline
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Re: You guys don't get it do you?

Quote:dealing with profanity, theft, lying, unresponsiveness, and the occasional outburst of violence. 30 students an hour, 180 students a day. Some of them don't speak english. Some of them have dissabilities. Remember their names, track their progress, contact their parents (not always possible,) and always be polite, professional, and never offend anyone's political, religious, or egocentric sensibilities.
THIS is the exact fucking reason school should not be compulsory. For the love of fucking god do you realize how big of quality jump the public school system would make if it didn't force kids to attend? You wouldn't be dealing with all of the above shit.
"Schools don't need reforming." Puuhlease



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05-26-2011 11:07 AM
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Re: You guys don't get it do you?

Thought Crimnal Wrote:
Quote:dealing with profanity, theft, lying, unresponsiveness, and the occasional outburst of violence. 30 students an hour, 180 students a day. Some of them don't speak english. Some of them have dissabilities. Remember their names, track their progress, contact their parents (not always possible,) and always be polite, professional, and never offend anyone's political, religious, or egocentric sensibilities.
THIS is the exact fucking reason school should not be compulsory. For the love of fucking god do you realize how big of quality jump the public school system would make if it didn't force kids to attend? You wouldn't be dealing with all of the above shit.
"Schools don't need reforming." Puuhlease

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05-26-2011 11:43 AM
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Miller0700 Offline
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Post: #12
Re: You guys don't get it do you? (Part 2)

Read the post I gave you.

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05-26-2011 11:45 AM
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Leon Kinotolian Offline
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Post: #13
Re: You guys don't get it do you?

You should really try to avoid posting the same topic twice.

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05-26-2011 12:26 PM
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Reptorian Offline
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Post: #14
Re: You guys don't get it do you?

Asder Miller Wrote:Here's his idea of a better school system. This is on another post if you want to read this seperatly:

[b]"For instance. I worked for three years in classrooms with children. And it seems that you haven't done that. I am talking about direct knowledge about the subject you are talking about. So excuse me, but it sounds like I am inherently more qualified to speak about it than you are. That's not to say that your ideas are not valid, they are just uninformed, untested by the crucible of reality. I think that if you ever tried to implement them, you will find that it's not as easy as you think.

A lot of the teachers that have been teaching for over 20 years finds the educational system invalid for several reasons like the nature behind schooling in general such as coercion (backed up by the laws in the US stating that people under 18 have to comply by the parental choice against their will while the individuals that are retrieving that certain form of education have no word to say about it or can't do anything about it unless he/she is eligible to be emancipated), uncontrollable stress sources that can be easily resolved when the students actually have the choice on choosing education such as noises levels and psychological intimidation (some examples are spanking which are known to damage nerves and actually do causes emotional damages to adults and children, forced deprivation, forced corporal punishment-some are even known to kill people as documented behind news), and the lack of ability to customize the form of education to tailor to the needs of individuals people since each people are wired differently accordingly to genetics and brain. Although 2 brains may have a large amount of similarities in the structure, the combination behind the brain wiring resulted in different behaviors and different form of learning. Another thing is that school have been proven to be a source of psychological disorders such as SPD, HPD, APD, and other psychological disorders which is shown in my thread at youth rights section and the original source ends with med.gov.

Asder Miller Wrote:I can safely say that the majority of educators go into the field thinking that they are going to help, they are going to do things differently, and that every thing's going to be great. Nobody goes into education saying, "gosh, I'm going to get those children to obey and to follow my orders." They go in thinking, "I'm going to share a part of myself with these kids and teach them new things." But like I said, it is a lot easier said than done.

John Taylor Gatto was a man who earned awards teaching for over 20 years who realized the flaws behind the school system have actually claimed that they forced those children to obey. Many other teachers like Alfie Kohn believes in the similar idea. Although sharing ideas with students might sounds intriguing, some students have chosen to withdrawn because of the very nature behind schooling leaving them little choice on the matter in their schooling years. Screaming and begging them to learn will only results in increasing stress as shown in the army example and stress forces have been known to create health issues. Hence you can see why they feel forced and why they are withdrawn.

Asder Miller Wrote:So there you have an army of professionals working away, day in and day out, putting in personal time just to do a better job, working to solve these problems that you criticize glibly. (And by the way, there are techers who share your political beleifs. Don't think that all teachers are all, bleeding-heart liberals who hug trees. In fact most of them are very pragmatic.) So you can imagine how it makes me feel when someone who to my knowledge has never lifted a finger to educate a child, let alone a special needs child, points to the whole thing and says, "It's all garbage. It all needs to go."

First of all, the teachers cannot resolve the problems due to their limited powers upon the school system and the political states isn't permitting more flexibility behind the school system while alternative form of education often permits a wider range of flexibility due to less restrictions that is taken upon by the environment. The other thing is that students can learn from outside sources if they wish to and if they do find that the alternative form of gathering knowledge instead of school is more effective, then they can conclude it's garbage if school doesn't work out for them in the end and there are many people graduates and dropouts alike who find the school system ineffective for the reasons being mentioned by the anti-school side.

ZZZ...
05-27-2011 05:47 AM
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Asder Miller Offline
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Post: #15
Re: You guys don't get it do you? (Part 2)

Quote:So, you think that the education system can be improved without adding new funding. Let me tell you something about my experience as a teacher. There were meetings, no less than once a week,where all of the teachers in the school got together and brainstormed on ideas on how to improve the services to students. And let me tell you, they came up with lots of ideas. And every time they thought os something new for their students, you know what it meant? It meant more work for the teachers. There's a wide-spread perception that teachers only work until 3 pm. I'll tell you right now, that's a lie. I was in my classroom regularly until 7pm sometimes 9, grading papers, writing curriculum. I didn't get compensated for that extra time. And I spent most of my Sundays in the same manner.
Shut the fuck up right now. We here it every day from our goddamn teachers. "I have to stay late" "I have to come in on weekends" "Blah fucking blah its so hard for us." Nobody thinks it's fucking easy for teachers, and nobody thinks they only work during the day. Your patting yourself on the back, and that entire paragraph was irrelevant.

Quote: Do you have any idea of the work that goes into constructing a lesson plan? Are you familiar with the state-mandated standards that are required to be cited in these plans? Teachers aren't just a bunch of drooling automatons. They are real people, with families, and aspirations, and problems of their own that they frequently put aside to help their students.
There you go again. NOBODY CARES ABOUT HOW HARD YOU WORK TO OPPRESS STUDENTS WITH STUPID LESSON PLANS THAT ARE COMPULSORY AND BORING. [/quote]

I think you first few responses were professional and logical, but then, for example here, you went on a mindless rant. You never really made a rebuttal to these two. You dodged it. How come, you might ask? Well, you said you didn't really care about the work the teachers have to go through. So are you blatantly ignorant to the side of the teachers? Have you deluded yourself into not wanting to understand them? are you afraid to step in their shoes? Confused
05-27-2011 07:08 AM
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Absnt Offline
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Post: #16
Re: You guys don't get it do you?

What's there to respond to? Laugh

All the teacher said was it's "hard work". He made no points... I know as well as the next guy how hard it can be to be a teacher. I've never been a teacher, of course, but I am around them every single day. I have relatives who are teachers. And I've read a lot of information on stress and the teaching profession. What the hell does that have to do with anything? Hard work does not justify something. I could work the hardest I ever have killing people, and it still wouldn't be right.

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05-27-2011 07:21 AM
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TheOmegaJuggalo Offline
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Post: #17
Re: You guys don't get it do you?

Let me start by saying HOLY FUCKING SHIT, that's one of my articles and I'm glad someone knows about it.

Al is a tool, and attempting to reply to him without exploding was extremely difficult. All we did was butt heads through the entire commentary, he never once made a valid point, and never once was willing to even try to comprehend what I was saying... His faggotry knows no bounds. I believe he left a link to a website of his on one of the comments, if anyone wants to try to harass him that way... not sure if it interests you.

But I agree with the points made, particularly by Absent (because they were so damn fun to read! Biggrin). The way I see it, I'm not sure if we'll ever be able to get through to most teachers. It seems that they're unwilling to even consider other possibilities than what they've always been told.

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05-27-2011 08:03 AM
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TheCancer Offline
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Post: #18
Re: You guys don't get it do you?

I never took work home and hardly ever worked more than 40 hours a week and often less. When I coached I worked longer hours but it was voluntary and I was compensated for it. The truth is, if you know your subject matter, it's easy to teach the kids who like school and want to be there and impossible to teach the kids that hate it. No matter what you do, it's still compulsory and that's the problem. Take me for instance. I have no interest in auto-mechanics. No matter what kind of group projects and centers and stations and no matter what kind of 'technology' was used it wouldn't matter. I still wouldn't want to be there and I still wouldn't enjoy it. And I would resent being forced to give up my time to the endeavor. However, I love literature. If a teacher wanted to teach me about Joyce all he or she would need to do would be to give me a copy of Ulysses, shut up for two or three weeks, and then discuss the novel with me.

One subject I taught was middle school math. All you have to do to teach math is demonstrate how to work the problems, assign similar problems and correct mistakes along the way. You don't need computers and films and all that. The only way the kids are going to get any good at math is if they shut up when you're teaching it and then practice it. The ones who like it, shut up and practice. Those who hate it, don't. Little math computer games and all that stuff is garbage. Grading 40 problems a day checking for exact answers instead of reviewing the concepts is stupid. Math teachers spend all weekend grading papers. What a waste of time! Schools don't need 'technology', they don't need better paid teachers, and they're not under funded. They need to quit wasting money on kids who hate it. From what I've seen not only should school be completely voluntary but PUBLIC schools should be abolished. People shouldn't be forced to pay taxes to pay for schools and people who don't want to be there shouldn't be there. The whole system is rotten.

If you want to be a different fish, you've got to jump out of the school.


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05-27-2011 11:58 AM
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Post: #19
Re: You guys don't get it do you?

Quote:You know who does have excellent schools? The Chinese. Communists. Did you know that within the next ten years or so, they will surpass the amount of patents held by the U.S.? They allready surpass us in patents registered every year. There are more honor students in India than there are students in the U.S. It's a very real problem. Because while those students are studying their asses off, American students are dicking around on Facebook, and texting each other while they mock their teachers.
The Chinese? lol, how about Finland:
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http://www.openeducation.net/2008/03/10 ... ol-system/

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05-27-2011 08:51 PM
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RaiserZero Offline
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Post: #20
Re: You guys don't get it do you?

It's nice you put the time to post something but, you kind of wasted it. School will remain a prison in view of almost everbody today and tomorrow and the rest of the freaking time school will exist. Try compairing it to a prison, and you'll see it's almost exactly the same. You said school had it's advantages ??? What kind? Making friends? Oh yay... Anyone can make new friends by going to a park. Reading, writing and calculating? I think anyone can learn that alone, because I did it. That is, until I went to school and whatnot. Yes, I am grateful( a little ) for everything I remembered from school, but most of the interesting things I learned weren't even on topic with the class and 90% of what I remembered will be forgotten and/or useless in the future.

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05-30-2011 02:21 PM
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Elfy Offline
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Post: #21
Re: You guys don't get it do you?

RaiserZero Wrote:School will remain a prison in view of almost everbody today and tomorrow and the rest of the freaking time school will exist. Try compairing it to a prison, and you'll see it's almost exactly the same.

I'd disagree with this, I don't think its a prison in the view of most eyes. Besides, you have the option of walking right out if you don't like it.

Quote:Do you have any idea of the work that goes into constructing a lesson plan? Are you familiar with the state-mandated standards that are required to be cited in these plans? Teachers aren't just a bunch of drooling automatons. They are real people, with families, and aspirations, and problems of their own that they frequently put aside to help their students.

Yes, and it's completely the students choice to follow these plans. Yes they are real people with families (or not), and I've met some pretty cool teachers. The lesson plan was useless without a good teacher, but luckily, quite a few of my teachers were quite awesome and helped me learn things that weren't on the curriculum as well.

But yeah, it's all well having a plan but it is down to the teacher to teach it well and engage my interest, make me want to look into it in my own time.

The fact that school is compulsory makes people lose attention from the word go, you get people who don't want to be there and rightly so. Teaching may be difficult and demanding but they have a choice whether they want to be a teacher or not.

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05-30-2011 03:33 PM
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UnschoolShqiponjë Offline
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Post: #22
Re: You guys don't get it do you?

Quote:Besides, you have the option of walking right out if you don't like it.

Not until you are 16 though.

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05-31-2011 02:05 AM
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Aya Offline
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Post: #23
Re: You guys don't get it do you?

Elfy Wrote:Yes, and it's completely the students choice to follow these plans.

This to the nth degree.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. The law say's you have to go to school, but it doesn't say anything about doing class work.
05-31-2011 03:22 AM
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Post: #24
Re: You guys don't get it do you?

HAHAHAHAHAHA. Teachers have to do this, teachers have to do that, Teachers have to uggghhhh.... Like i seriously give a crap what your pathetic existence amounts to. Mine amounts to trying to make something of my life. Not sitting behind a desk while some bureaucrat grades my work. I have an F in Health because the teacher was to lazy to file for late work. My Pre-Al teacher was more than happy to, my Language teacher didn't care, but because you don't want to file some extra paperwork I can't do anything this summer. There goes my summer pool pass, phone, anything electronic. Camping? Do i love it? Absolutely. Can i? Absolutely not. Again, because some hypocritical bureaucrat was to lazy to file some damn paperwork which they forcefeed us 24/7

"Ask them no more questions, never hear them lying"

People say the problem with me is I have psychotic tendencies and care not about other human beings I don't like and or know. So?
06-02-2011 06:33 AM
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aaaaaaasd Offline
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Post: #25
Re: You guys don't get it do you?

asder miller why are you still here
06-02-2011 07:58 AM
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TheOmegaJuggalo Offline
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Post: #26
Re: You guys don't get it do you?

BaronVonStrangle Wrote:asder miller why are you still here

If you're referring to the original post, that's not him talking. It was a quote from a comment on an article, he was just sharing it.

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06-12-2011 10:45 PM
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Miller0700 Offline
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Post: #27
Re: You guys don't get it do you?

TheOmegaJuggalo Wrote:
BaronVonStrangle Wrote:asder miller why are you still here

If you're referring to the original post, that's not him talking. It was a quote from a comment on an article, he was just sharing it.

Baron still doesn't want him here.

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06-12-2011 10:47 PM
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gore goroth Offline
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Post: #28
Re: You guys don't get it do you?

Im not even gonna bother responding.
With words that is.
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06-17-2011 01:55 PM
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gore goroth Offline
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Post: #29
Re: You guys don't get it do you?

Ok, fine, i'll go ahead and respond. Just in the 999,999,999 to 1 off chance that asder miller is not a troll.
[Image: tumblr_ll992g2S0I1qafrh6.jpg]
When I say the government run educational system is immoral, I don't mean the staff or teachers. I mean the beurocracy and force behind it. Unlike the 99% of America that thinks a subsidized school system that is funded by coercion and violence (taxes) is just great way to help children learn, I actually think about what they really want. When you say that we need public school, you are saying that I need to be in jail if I don't give up my hard earned money to the government for this forced education system funded by violence. No wonder kids are more violent today.

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06-17-2011 02:24 PM
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Post: #30
Re: You guys don't get it do you?

[Image: Stfu.jpg]

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And Finally:

[Image: tumblr_ld6zp8QFmE1qz8uqoo1_500.jpg]



Good troll though.

War is stupid.
06-18-2011 02:43 PM
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