I believe this further confirms our beliefs

[Amortisatie]

http://www.newswithviews.com/Turtel/joel28.htm

I'd say something but this guy has already said everything

Quote:HOW PUBLIC SCHOOL SOCIALISTS BRAINWASH CHILDREN & DESTROY AMERICA





By Joel Turtel

November 18, 2006

NewsWithViews.com

One reason public schools get away with educational failure, year after year, is because they are run by left-leaning politicians and school officials who passionately believe that government should control your children's mind, values, and future. As the great English writer C. S. Lewis wrote, "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. Those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."

Public-school socialist true-believers often fall into this category --- for over a 150 years, education "progressive" so-called experts have been tormenting our children with public schools, allegedly for our children's benefit. Like all fascist, socialist, or communist true-believers, these people absolutely believe that they know what is best for your children, and seek to ram their beliefs down parents' throats.

From the 1840s to the 1930s, public-school "progressive" activists like Horace Mann and John Dewey worked to create a public-school system like the one they admired in Prussia (Germany). Mann and Dewey considered public education a religion, with a holy mission to mold children and society. Simply teaching children to read, write, and do math was too commonplace a goal for them. Mann and Dewey wanted the schools to have total control over children's lives. This meant removing parents' influence over their children. Mann put it this way: "We who are engaged in the sacred cause of education are entitled to look upon all parents as having given hostages to our cause."

Dewey had a socialist utopian vision for America and he wanted the common schools to achieve his vision. To create a government-dominated socialist America, public schools had to mold generations of children into the habit of obedience. In his "Pedagogic Creed" of 1897, Dewey wrote, "Every teacher should realize he is a social servant set apart for the maintenance of the proper social order and the securing of the right social growth. . ."

By the early twentieth century, public schools had expanded their functions into areas undreamed of in the 1850s. Schools took on the role of social agencies, with nurses, social centers, playgrounds, school showers, kindergartens, and "Americanization" programs for immigrants. Public schools became a major agency for social control.

Unfortunately, today's public schools are fulfilling Mann's and Dewey's "government- knows-best" vision with a vengeance. There is hardly any area of children's lives that school authorities now don't push to control. Politicians and public-school apologists in many states are now pushing programs that would make kindergarten compulsory. Yes, they now want to literally take 3 and 4-year old children from their mother's arms and stick them in public-school nursery-classrooms.

Public schools also now spend billions of dollars for psychological counseling, school-lunch programs, mandatory drug-testing, parent welfare-outreach programs, special-education classes, bilingual classes, early-childhood programs, drug and sex education classes, as well as programs for millions of "at-risk" or "special-needs" children.

This government-knows-best philosophy is the deepest reason why public schools get away with educational murder and can never be fixed. Public-school apologists believe that government bureaucrats and school authorities should dictate your children's education and the values they are taught. By implication, they believe that parents are an annoyance at best. More often, they believe that parents are a danger to their children's "proper" education and the values children "ought" to be taught by government employees.

To turn your children into dumbed-down, obedient little citizens and multiculturalist "citizens of the world," public-school authorities have to keep an iron grip on your children's minds and values. That is why public-school true believers will never voluntarily give up control over our children. They see themselves as noble idealists who know what is "best" for your children. That is why these socialist-fascist-minded "idealists" have contempt for your parental rights.

In the recent Congressional elections, the police-state chickens are coming home to roost. The majority of 18 to 25 year-olds, graduates of our socialist-indoctrinating public schools, voted for Democrats. These are the children who spent 12 years in public schools that systematically insult traditional American ideals and values. These are the schools that preach the multicultural trash that all cultures' values are "equal," and that American values of individual rights, economic liberty, and limited government are "selfish" or arrogant.

Well, our public-school "graduates" are now voters, and their socialist-indoctrinated mind-set now attracts them to Democrats like moths to a flame. God help this country, because public schools turn out millions of these child-adults who haven't the faintest conception about the values this country was founded on, or have little respect or contempt for those values.

Parents, for your children's sake, walk away from the public schools. Also, don't depend on vouchers or charter schools, which are few and far between. Take control of your children's education and the values you teach them by homeschooling your kids or enrolling them in a low-cost Internet private school of your choice. Your children's future is at stake, and so is, by the way, the future of our Republic and our liberties.

[Jesusaurisrex]

I was enjoying this read until he started ripping on socialism and then the democrats. why can't anyone accept the democratic AND the republican party. sorry for turning this into a political debate.... this guy is now taking OUR arguments and saying "its schools fault that the world THAT I WANT is not here". and why the hell is he labeling the democrats as socialists? government is corrupt. always has, always will. the democrats where the lesser of the two evils. THATS why they won. not because Obama is black, not because of school, but because people are want obama's promised "change" because they are sick and tired of the republican method of things. and then they get bored of that, and want more change. we are stuck in an endless circle of corruption and stupidity. that is not schools fault. its human natures fault. Democracy goes against every instinct we have. it gets rid of our natural leaning to tyranny, and is there for very useful... and very boring. thats where people want that change.

[mrwednesday]

Nothing takes away your credibility quite like hyperbolic attacks on the political party you disagree with, and Mr. Turtel apparently didn't get that memo. Bashing the left has absolutely nothing at all to do with whether the school system is effective or not; the fact that he left this dreck in his essay--and in the opening paragraph no less--makes it clear that he is too spiteful and deluded for his opinion to matter. Never mind that he isn't even correct in his estimation that most schools are run by "left-leaning politicians." Turtel seriously saying that Liberals want the government to control your child's mind is such an obvious argumentum in terrorem that he should be ashamed of himself. This man is nothing more than an angsty Conservative doomsayer with clearly too much time on his hands.

He starts with a fallacious assumption: that public schools are "failing." He is deceptively vague, and never even gives a definition of what he would consider succeeding, again alluding back to his irrational anger towards everything he does not understand. His unintelligible string of weasel words eventually culminate in a paranoid fear of communism that would give McCarthy a hard-on. Obviously, if one follows Turtel's logic, when you call your opponents fascists then the facts no longer matter and you win by default. He goes back to demonizing Liberals and says that they're trying to "ram their beliefs down parents' throats." The reason our school system is still in place and our country hasn't fallen apart is because things are working. There is nothing wrong with the way public schools are designed. Not that Turtel was going to argue that, anyway. Instead he continues on his right-wing tirade of malice.

The pseudo-utopian views of Dewey and Horace Mann have been done away with, but I guess there's nothing like beating a dead horse. Or, as Turtel would obviously prefer, a dead liberal horse. His entire paragraph about "the 1840s to the 1930s" is utterly moot. We've foregone those ideas.

Also, bonus points for quoting the Pedagogic Creed out of context. Had Turtel actually read it he would have realized that there was nothing to be worried about. Pity. I invite everyone to read the Creed in full here. Dewey was a fine educator and a highly intelligent man.

Public schools began to grow and take on new functions, but how are "nurses, social centers, playgrounds, school showers, kindergartens, and 'Americanization' programs" a bad thing? Schools became a powerful force for good, not for "social control" as this fearmongering C.S. Lewis fan would have you believe.

No children are being snatched from their parents' arms. Most parents, believe it or not, want their children to go to school/graduate/get jobs/have enjoyable lives. Kindergarten is nothing more than a training ground for socialization. Would Turtel prefer that these children stay in their parents' basements for the duration of their lives, sheltered from the real world and reading the Bible? I leave that up to you, the reader.

If this man had ever seen the inside of a school, which I doubt, then he would realize that the kids there are not government mind slaves. They're just kids. Happy, awkward, normal kids. It's just that they've opted to go for the most obvious, effective route for pursuing their education. Claiming that schools are operated by a "government knows best" mentality is nonsensical. PTAs and Student Government organizations exist for a reason.

If I were a teacher, I would give Mr. Turtel an F on this essay. He should have studied harder.

-Wednesday

EDIT: Changed semicolon to a colon.

[Jesusaurisrex]

Before i say anything else, i must commend you on your post, it was very well written. now let me point out things....

Quote:There is nothing wrong with the way public schools are designed

Quote:Dewey was a fine educator and a highly intelligent man.

Quote:but how are "nurses, social centers, playgrounds, school showers, kindergartens, and 'Americanization' programs" a bad thing? Schools became a powerful force for good, not for "social control"

Quote:If this man had ever seen the inside of a school, which I doubt, then he would realize that the kids there are not government mind slaves

fuck you. get off our forums.

[psychopath]

The real problem is that it's mandatory. If it wasn't mandatory, then it would have the right to be flawed.

[Reptorian]

I'm willing to debate you and will argue a lot more better than what I said. For now, I just have waken up without not too much thoughts into my head.

@mrwednesday

You've to give him credits for those who is outside of those who don't believe in the school-taught theory of their life don't agree with the teacher's beliefs which led knowledge involving government don't want you to be rebelling against their beliefs for the reason of simulating the economy and for the funeral fund within trying to provide the minimum education as possible as observed in many experiments involving public school placed against homeschooling and unschooled people and it turns out that for those who don't go through the public school system has less difficulty getting a 4.0 than those who goes through it simply because of less stress, learning at an faster rate which results in more information in certain subjects to be higher, and the learning style suits these kid the most. The fact that people are believing the theory that school is equal education while that is their own opinion without acknowledging it is caused by the amount of teachers teaching their idea which results in students spreading their beliefs and continuing all the way into higher education so that they can continue this kind of beliefs as the truth while education is the subject of learning style such as homeschool, public school, unschool, charter school and what method of learning to discover their world is used to let them acknowledge what they have seen in their entire life. If you're saying education is the process of learning throughout their life, then it would be an idea based upon one observation of the human learning place.The scientist that are into the field of social science will tell you that people will usually go by what most people believe no matter how ridiculous their belief would be without questioning it at all and you should have studied social science.

mrwednesday Wrote:He starts with a fallacious assumption; that public schools are "failing."

Well, you're right about being the terms that is vague simply because the evidence the public school are continuing are available in here right now in an compulsory terms without slowing down due to the beliefs of many people as observed in the amount of people who believe in the school system and rebel from kindergarten to higher education. Most I have seen are still stuck to their own beliefs that repeating an simple lesson while following the teacher will allow them to learn at an similar rate which they think they get the most lessons learned for life out there while so many graduates don't even remember nearly half of what they have seen in lessons. I recommend you research every group out there to get all the possible studies from 5th grade all the way into 12th grade and make up an 400 questions quiz putting into a test while engaging into their conversation observing their skills in their own hobbies which you should take pictures to compare the result of unschooled kid, home schooled kids, public school all the way into graduates to verify the possible lessons they learn inside their life in order to see which is the best way of learning by the truth and not by what many people believe without even bothering questioning it.

mrwednesday Wrote:deluded

You believe the school system have absolutely nothing wrong, should I say you're an bad writer simply because you're deluded which automatically fails most arguments in history when the answer is yes.

mrwednesday Wrote:They're kids. Happy, awkward, normal kids.

Tell me your definition of normal. Most of the kids in public high school and middle school types/writes like myspace crap while having some ok level of what they have seen of the world, but apparently their beliefs didn't help everybody get success nor get the most knowledge as possible when comparing the results if they was using different type of learning method involving life skills and knowledge. They're happy believing that they are earning an great life without acknowledging the further truth of our education system which is really an horrible place when you put the punishments involved into school from some part of the United States and some of them do involve death along with some of the punishment involves dangerous injury.

mrwednesday Wrote:No children are being snatched from their parents' arms. Most parents, believe it or not, want their children to go to school/graduate/get jobs/have enjoyable lives. sheltered from the real world and reading the Bible? I leave that up to you, the reader.

I do agree that no children are being snatched from their parents arm since they have some time to communicate with their parents. They're referring to the amount of time they spent away from their parents comparing with other learning method. Does it really guarantee that idea you just said 100 percent, there is evidence that there are some graduates who fails at life due to many possible reasons and one of them is that it ain't their right path for life. You automatically cancel out your argument simply because of stereotyping home schooled people and the fact that they are are living in the real wold which the planet earth or have you not heard of what is the real world which is the physical world inside our universe?

@Jesusaurirex or however you spell it

provide evidence against these words of his please.
--
Just a slight update on this post, he just comes here in couple of hours after his first post and then left while this post was originally made before he even connected to this thread with me.

[Sunbourn]

ITT: Liberal propaganda.

[Amortisatie]

Yeah, I reread it and it started to look like propaganda for a political party, but I found it interesting nonetheless

[mrwednesday]

Jesusaurisrex Wrote:fuck you. get off our forums.

That's bloody mature, isn't it?

psychopath Wrote:The real problem is that it's mandatory. If it wasn't mandatory, then it would have the right to be flawed.

It has to be mandatory to work.

[The Desert Fox]

psychopath Wrote:The real problem is that it's mandatory. If it wasn't mandatory, then it would have the right to be flawed.

[mrwednesday]

The Avenger Wrote:

psychopath Wrote:The real problem is that it's mandatory. If it wasn't mandatory, then it would have the right to be flawed.

I don't see you proposing any methods of teaching every child in the country what they'll need to know to succeed in the world. Telling them all to take it into their own hands doesn't help. You may find school unbearable, but that doesn't mean it's flawed. If it wasn't mandatory, then many people wouldn't go. Schools are designed to prevent that and make sure that everyone gets an education. There are kids who lack the foresight and intuition to educate themselves effectively, or at all for that matter.

[psychopath]

mrwednesday Wrote:

The Avenger Wrote:

psychopath Wrote:The real problem is that it's mandatory. If it wasn't mandatory, then it would have the right to be flawed.

I don't see you proposing any methods of teaching every child in the country what they'll need to know to succeed in the world. Telling them all to take it into their own hands doesn't help. You may find school unbearable, but that doesn't mean it's flawed. If it wasn't mandatory, then many people wouldn't go. Schools are designed to prevent that and make sure that everyone gets an education. There are kids who lack the foresight and intuition to educate themselves effectively, or at all for that matter.

Making it mandatory definitely does not teach them what they need to succeed in the world. School teaches mostly irrelevant stuff that should be optional to learn. On top of that, the fact that it is mandatory means that there's no reason for it to be any good.

If school wasn't mandatory, and it didn't improve it would perish. There's lots of other ways to learn, especially practical things. These alternatives however cannot prosper at the moment because school is mandatory.

Quote:It has to be mandatory to work.

Erm, no. Who's ass did you just pull that out of?

In a way, yes, it has to be mandatory to work. But there's a catch. The catch is that it's current function is not so much to teach, it's to manipulate. So yes, it has to be mandatory to form a prison where kids must attend to open up their minds for torture.

[mrwednesday]

psychopath Wrote:Making it mandatory definitely does not teach them what they need to succeed in the world. School teaches mostly irrelevant stuff that should be optional to learn. On top of that, the fact that it is mandatory means that there's no reason for it to be any good.

Math, English, History, and Science should be optional to learn? The fact that it's mandatory means that everyone will be given the tools they need to support themselves later on.

Quote:If school wasn't mandatory, and it didn't improve it would perish. There's lots of other ways to learn, especially practical things. These alternatives however cannot prosper at the moment because school is mandatory.

If school wasn't mandatory, it would perish. That's exactly why it needs to be mandatory. It provides a service, arguably the most important one there is; an educational foundation to base one's entire life on. Don't kid yourself into thinking that children can assume this responsibility alone. They need help.

Quote:Erm, no. Who's ass did you just pull that out of?

Whose. See how useful English Class is?

Quote:In a way, yes, it has to be mandatory to work. But there's a catch. The catch is that it's(sic) current function is not so much to teach, it's to manipulate. So yes, it has to be mandatory to form a prison where kids must attend to open up their minds for torture.

You're assuming that its function is to manipulate, assuming that it's a prison. It's not. When people like you say such stupid hyperbolic statements like that, you take away whatever little credibility the argument against compulsory schooling had.

[psychopath]

mrwednesday Wrote:Math, English, History, and Science should be optional to learn? The fact that it's mandatory means that everyone will be given the tools they need to support themselves later on.

Yes, all of those subjects should be optional to learn. What you need to do is learn that those subjects, in the school environment, don't teach anything of value anyway.

Even if they do teach something useful, the fact remains that if school was optional then only the best services for teaching those subjects would be allowed to exist.

Quote:If school wasn't mandatory, it would perish. That's exactly why it needs to be mandatory. It provides a service, arguably the most important one there is; an educational foundation to base one's entire life on. Don't kid yourself into thinking that children can assume this responsibility alone. They need help.

It provides a service, but if it's allowed to provide that service no matter how bad it is, then we have a problem. If it perishes due to becoming optional, then that means it was never of any value in the first place.

Quote:Whose. See how useful English Class is?

Unlike you, I don't judge a person's english skills just from one line, and there's nothing wrong with that line either.

Quote:You're assuming that its function is to manipulate, assuming that it's a prison. It's not. When people like you say such stupid hyperbolic statements like that, you take away whatever little credibility the argument against compulsory schooling had.

The simple fact that you don't understand how it's function is to manipulate shows your ignorance.

You also claim that it's not a prison. That's hilarious. I'm assuming then you never saw how schools are literally locked up so students can't leave, and how it is actually against the law for them to leave the grounds without permission. I guess you never saw the cops patrolling the school halls either.

[Reptorian]

mrwednesday Wrote:Math, English, History, and Science should be optional to learn? The fact that it's mandatory means that everyone will be given the tools they need to support themselves later on.

Whose. See how useful English Class is?

History should be optional to learn since there is evidence that people can rely on their own timeline rather than what has happened in the past and yet still able to survive in the modern world, but some should indeed learn it to notified the mistakes people has done into the past that has affected this modern world which can results in some knowledge into how to fix it. Math itself should be mandatory and they can be learned without coercion by basically experiencing objects that requires mathematical application while someone else is teaching such as an mother teaching an son/daugter the recipe after they learned the basic of the number throughout their experience while they are experiencing the process of learning based on scientific terms. English should be optional, but people that are into an very young age has the capability to learn languages without the need of an certain teacher while they still need this certain environmental factor which is being exposed to the area where many communications occurs and observing the visual objects being connected into the words so that they can form the basic part of the languages later in life. Prodigy childs that are speaking many languages are proven to be exposed to many different languages from birth to their child age and that what got them into acknowledging the languages. Learning experience while knowing part of the basic scientific stuff that occurs in your typical everyday life should be indeed mandatory. These prodigy childs didn't need an teacher at all in order to learn these languages and what they need is the basic requirement which is to hear along with being exposed to many different languages from an very young age before 1 years old along with the slight brain development which allows them to know learn languages.

Don't judge from only one line, but judge from many different lines which typically allows you to actually find out the many different problems in using the languages. I admit I have problems doing english and that is because I'm an partly deaf person since birth while having difficulty with communicating in real life. Oh and respond to the words I have sent you up.

mrwednesday Wrote:Don't kid yourself into thinking that children can assume this responsibility alone. They need help.

You're assuming that its function is to manipulate, assuming that it's a prison. It's not. When people like you say such stupid hyperbolic statements like that, you take away whatever little credibility the argument against compulsory schooling had.

Not all children needs a lot of help into taking the responsibility since there are some that actually try to learn many different subjects without any help and they try that experience taking it as an hobby. I reccomend you to try to take a look at unschooled children that are capable of reading, doing math at least in the 8th grade level and you'll find that not all of them had too much help and most of them will go further than that grade level due to the rate of learning these subjects are higher. No doubt some children needs help on the subject of learning throughout their life though.

Some school isn't as bad as prison, but it does have the basic designs similar to prisons from architecture design to security system involving people and school does allows for open attack in areas such as an unsecured corner or bathroom. There are some school where you are vulnerable to gun attacks as observed in some of the worse school to live in with bad neighborhoods and these are the one that seems to be worse than prisons based from the studies of school system and criminal shows.

[psychopath]

StylizedCarfan1, use fucking paragraphs

[Reptorian]

I am using paragraph and the amount of sentences proves it. But let just not go offtopic.

[psychopath]

StylizedCarfan1 Wrote:I am using paragraph and the amount of sentences proves it. But let just not go offtopic.

Bullshit. I'm sick of your walls of text. Learn to use some grammar or get out.

[Reptorian]

Quote:History should be optional to learn since there is evidence that people can rely on their own timeline rather than what has happened in the past and yet still able to survive in the modern world, but some should indeed learn it to notified the mistakes people has done into the past that has affected this modern world which can results in some knowledge into how to fix it. -1

Math itself should be mandatory and they can be learned without coercion by basically experiencing objects that requires mathematical application while someone else is teaching such as an mother teaching an son/daugter the recipe after they learned the basic of the number throughout their experience while they are experiencing the process of learning based on scientific terms. -2

English should be optional, but people that are into an very young age has the capability to learn languages without the need of an certain teacher while they still need this certain environmental factor which is being exposed to the area where many communications occurs and observing the visual objects being connected into the words so that they can form the basic part of the languages later in life.-3

Prodigy childs that are speaking many languages are proven to be exposed to many different languages from birth to their child age and that what got them into acknowledging the languages. -4

Learning experience while knowing part of the basic scientific stuff that occurs in your typical everyday life should be indeed mandatory. -5

These prodigy childs didn't need an teacher at all in order to learn these languages and what they need is the basic requirement which is to hear along with being exposed to many different languages from an very young age before 1 years old along with the slight brain development which allows them to know learn languages. -6

Proof of the paragraph having 6 sentence and school had taught me that an paragraph have 5-7 sentences. Things should be fine as long as we understand each other.

[psychopath]

Quote:Proof of the paragraph having 6 sentence and school had taught me that an paragraph have 5-7 sentences. Things should be fine as long as we understand each other.

Dude I don't give a fuck what school taught you. Looking through this thread I see massive blocks of text.

[Reptorian]

It's nothing comparing to novel books, some researches, some scientific researches, and you'll find there are people who makes by far more longer wall of text than I do. Why to complain due to the length of the text when you don't take the time to actually read it or you're not adapted to it while being exposed to many different paragraphs?

[psychopath]

StylizedCarfan1 Wrote:It's nothing comparing to novel books, some researches, some scientific researches, and you'll find there are people who makes by far more longer wall of text than I do. Why to complain due to the length of the text when you don't take the time to actually read it or you're not adapted to it while being exposed to many different paragraphs?

Firstly it's research, not researches you english deprived fool. Secondly, no one is going to read your post if it's got no paragraphs. People just don't have the attention span.

[Reptorian]

I'm someone who does have the attention span to read that much in one day which disprove your words. You should take a look at this site-http://www.free-reading.net/index.php?title=Introduce:_The_Suffixes_%E2%80%93s_and_-es

[psychopath]

StylizedCarfan1 Wrote:I'm someone who does have the attention span to read that much in one day which disprove your words.

The point is that other people will not read your walls of text, not you.

Stop trying to justify it, just use paragraphs.