Being treated equally. After the revolution...

[Absnt]

As seen in other revolutions and rebellions, even if we do succeed, there will still be discrimination. People won't magically change there minds about us just because legally they are supposed to accept us as people. Frankly I think they will treat us like crap for quite some time after we succeed. Although does this really matter? Do we give a shit what they think about us? Well, will the police still think were troubled? Will owners of stores still try to ensure we don't steel anything just because were kids? Will people still talk about kids being irresponsible pieces of shit? Ya. Unless it's outlawed to forbid children from things, private company's will probably continue the discrimination and make sure we don't get equal treatment.

I think... I'll probably end up writing a longer article in the future.

[LOON_ATTIC]

Absentinsomniac Wrote:As seen in other revolutions and rebellions, even if we do succeed, there will still be discrimination. People won't magically change there minds about us just because legally they are supposed to accept us as people. Frankly I think they will treat us like crap for quite some time after we succeed. Although does this really matter? Do we give a shit what they think about us? Well, will the police still think were troubled? Will owners of stores still try to ensure we don't steel anything just because were kids? Will people still talk about kids being irresponsible pieces of shit? Ya. Unless it's outlawed to forbid children from things, private company's will probably continue the discrimination and make sure we don't get equal treatment.

I think... I'll probably end up writing a longer article in the future.

I agree, but we should not let that stop us. Of course, it is possible to make everything much better, like it has happened already. The world will always be imperfect, new problems will always be popping out but we should try to fix them as much as possible.

[Rebelnerd]

Yeah, a lot of them will probably hate us even more. But at least we can get rid of the actual legal injustices. They can insult me all they want as long as my future kids are allowed to vote and aren't forced into a fucked up school system.

[Absnt]

Ya, although it will be irritating. I'm very optimistic about the outcome of the future. (sometimes)

[LightAbyssion]

Currently:


Youth: legally handicapped against adults, but still don't technically have to obey.

Adults: don't have to treat us equally, nor are they required to by law.


It's still worth trying, because if we 'win', at least we'll be on even ground:


Both: don't technically have to tolerate eachother, but have equal legal expectations.

[Ceiling Cat]

...
You realize that it'll take an armed conflict to overthrow the factory of idiots? While it's paradoxical, because none of the products of mass schooling want a revolution. They WANT to be on the bottom, and grow a complex making them abuse everyone once they grow up. This is a loop of fail, and needs serious and violent action.

[psychopath]

Being hated on is better than actually having no rights. Eventually people might get used to it, so having rights is always win.

[Absnt]

Ceiling Cat Wrote:...
You realize that it'll take an armed conflict to overthrow the factory of idiots? While it's paradoxical, because none of the products of mass schooling want a revolution. They WANT to be on the bottom, and grow a complex making them abuse everyone once they grow up. This is a loop of fail, and needs serious and violent action.

In armed conflict, at this point, we would fail. Theres no way we would over-throw an armed forces any time soon. The easiest way to gain rights, in my opinion, would be to spread the word and get it out there. NYRA has already done some things that have helped and I think were on the right track. I doubt armed conflict will solve anything. I wouldn't mind physically fighting but It doesn't seem like the best way to achieve our goals. (i think.)

[SuperiorDiplomat]

Being treated equally after the revolution..

Well we have to "win" first.. and that will take more then what we're doing now..

And going off "making a better future for our kids" and what not. At this rate they will
have to be in the "fight" also.

But anyways fuck what they think (after the revolution) if we act like a bunch of pusses after the revolution is over then it will just prove how "childish" we really are. So yes with judgment comes the ones who don't give a shit about the judgment being thrown upon then. And we need more of those people. I wonder what kind of opportunity's this will open for our youth!

[McGee!]

Best thing to do is to take and keep responsibility. That's a big part of what this is about.

[Absnt]

Yea. If we take responsibility of our own lives adults will have to accept us as our own people. This will offset problems with getting jobs though. If all of the kids are getting jobs along-side the adults we won't be able to get jobs...

If that's the kind of responsibility your talking about.

[LOON_ATTIC]

Many do, but it still isn't seen like that stereotypically, and kids are basically taught to be irresponsible by too much dependence.

[The Desert Fox]

I don't care if someone calls me "kid" as long as I have the same rights as them. Simple.

[Absnt]

Ya, I guess It doesn't matter as long as we have the same rights. Although, adults being discriminatory after the revolution can potentially contribute to the loss of some rights.

Eg. Kicked out of movies, Not being served at bars (assuming we win that fight) and things like that.

The reason I bring this up is because discrimination towards other groups has done this to others...

Edit: Or maby we haven't completely won until we have ALL of our rights.

[SoulRiser]

One of the reasons for mass schooling is actually because there aren't enough jobs for all the adults already, so if suddenly all the kids are legally allowed to have jobs, everyone will go batshit insane.
http://www.school-survival.net/articles ... agenda.php

So yeah, it really does go a lot deeper than just youth rights. The entire structure of society as we know it depends on youth not having any rights...

[Kirby]

I consider myself a liberal in the original sense of the word. For me, there are two battles: the fight for rights and the fight against discrimination. People have the right to be ageist, sexist, and whateverist even though it is wrong and should be protested. Injustice occurs when laws are discriminatory, not individual behaviour. If the state declares such-and-such cannot be done by children, that is injust because it is a decree handed down to be followed without considering the consent of anyone. If a teacher declares it cannot be done in the classroom, assuming that the school is a free choice, it is not injust but perhaps wrong.

Both fighting for youth rights and against ageism should be done together. What I fear is the overregulation that has occured in other areas of social progress. For example, in many places racism is no longer an issue and all races are equal under the law but the government has made discrimination a crime. It is easy to be self-righteous and say that it should be a crime, but in the end it is a victimless crime. Racial and ageist discrimination by itself only hurts peoples feelings whereas assault is wrong regardless of the reason.

As to how this is to happen, I'm not exactly sure. Violent revolution is not the answer even if it just in some cases. The only thing to do at the moment is to talk and argue and protest and whatever else will focus attention on this movement. Although I figure ageism will still exist after youth rights, it will most likely be much rarer than it is now because otherwise the unwashed masses would not consent of it.

SoulRiser Wrote:One of the reasons for mass schooling is actually because there aren't enough jobs for all the adults already, so if suddenly all the kids are legally allowed to have jobs, everyone will go batshit insane.

At the risk of being insulted for my beliefs again, I need to reiterate that there would be more jobs without minimum wage and youth "protection" laws. I'm only 19 but in my lifetime I've seen the demise of both full-service gas stations and grocery baggers. Let's face it, most young people are unskilled regardless of their potential and work ethic. Even if ageist laws are removed, full social harmony will not be achieved because laws detrimental to unskilled workers in general will still exist.

[Rebelnerd]

Kirby Wrote:Both fighting for youth rights and against ageism should be done together. What I fear is the overregulation that has occured in other areas of social progress. For example, in many places racism is no longer an issue and all races are equal under the law but the government has made discrimination a crime. It is easy to be self-righteous and say that it should be a crime, but in the end it is a victimless crime. Racial and ageist discrimination by itself only hurts peoples feelings whereas assault is wrong regardless of the reason.

True, being prejudiced is not a crime and of course should not be illegal. But let's also remember, of course, that not all discrimination is victimless. Things like offensive jokes and insults are a matter of free speech and have no business being regulated, but what about discrimination in the workplace for example? It's not a person's feelings being hurt there, it's their livelihood. There does need to be at least some regulation to make sure that the inequality actually goes away, rather than just having it be enforced by a different group of people.

[Kirby]

Rebelnerd Wrote:But let's also remember, of course, that not all discrimination is victimless.

That's true. My main point is that discrimination alone, while bad, isn't injust. Injustice comes from the act of coercion and not the intention.

Rebelnerd Wrote:It's not a person's feelings being hurt there, it's their livelihood. There does need to be at least some regulation to make sure that the inequality actually goes away, rather than just having it be enforced by a different group of people.

This illustrates the fundamental difference in our beliefs. Freedom creates the boundaries of just, but not necessarily good, actions. I would oppose anti-discrimination laws even if they help the situation.

[Absnt]

Quote:At the risk of being insulted for my beliefs again, I need to reiterate that there would be more jobs without minimum wage and youth "protection" laws. I'm only 19 but in my lifetime I've seen the demise of both full-service gas stations and grocery baggers. Let's face it, most young people are unskilled regardless of their potential and work ethic. Even if ageist laws are removed, full social harmony will not be achieved because laws detrimental to unskilled workers in general will still exist.

Let's not forget, we will still have parents and won't exactly need to be supporting ourselves. Although that would be nice, it doesn't seem likely. We will still need to become educated in an area we are interested in. If we wipe out school we will simply have more time to become skilled in an area we like. If I could have all of the time I've wasted in school back, I could probably of become skilled in programming, web-design and other areas of interest by now. Also, I don't think there would be enough jobs to go around if we were all ready for a career at the age of sixteen or so. Which kind of relates to the population issue, but that's another thread...

[aerftghyjk]

Though racism is obviously still going on, discrimination against races have decreased.


Civil Rights Era of the 50s: Look how much has changed since then. All sorts of races were treated like us.

It is possible to fix a lot of it.

[Absnt]

I agree.

[Ceiling Cat]

To hell with the structure.

[Loxor]

As long as we don't pull a Jacobin move.

[Kirby]

Absentinsomniac Wrote:Also, I don't think there would be enough jobs to go around if we were all ready for a career at the age of sixteen or so.

That's why I mentioned the minimum wage. I didn't mean to say that all young people are unskilled, just most of them at this time. With better schooling there would be competition between teenagers and adults for "real" jobs.

[Absnt]

I see. That makes sense.