Good ideas at heart, but I find a bit misguided...my story

[aerftghyjk]

You can't teach yourself mathematics? Not true. Our own member Lunatic is teaching himself calculus. Of course, there's tons of media on the subject.

All the information in school originated somewhere else, too.

[Ceiling Cat]

flea77 Wrote:See, I disagree here. I used to think that exact same thing as you. But this is an opinion of mine that really changed after college

No reason to be proud when you gave up your ideals when they still contained traces of individuality.

flea77 Wrote:The reason why a deadline makes a difference is because you will really, really force yourself to do the hard undesireable parts of the learning and not just the fun and satisfying parts.

I sense a very serious motivation problem here in you. So big, that I might even assume that you won't move a finger without being threatened by a hundred lashes. That's why you need motivation in form of coercion, and you automatically assume that others do as well.

flea77 Wrote:And yes, there is always that hard, annoying part of learning. Everyone has their own pace, but you might not ever realize what that pace is until you are pushed to the point where you can't go any further.

That pace is different for everyone, that's true - however, pushing one will result only in lack of motivation, which is the ultimate goal of institutionalized education, even in college. You're just supporting here pushing people to the limits, to prepare them to do the same at work for the rest of their fucking life.

flea77 Wrote:Deadlines make a difference also because of how MUCH you can learn.

You learn more on your own with a clear mind, rather than looking at the clock constantly with the professor's breath on your neck.

flea77 Wrote:And it's not just deadlines. It's other things. For example, research. Real, true research. I firmly believe you will learn more doing research than you will ever learn in any lecture. I did undergrad research for 2 years and it made me think completely different. It was amazing and completely self paced. Unfortunately this really is an opportunity you will only get on a college campus!

Opportunity my cold ASS. As far as I know, you can make scientific research by simply doing observations, and preserving the data, then working on it. Many scientist worked on and proved great things before the compulsory schooling(yes, college is compulsory as well - to the same extent a job is, the system coerces you into doing this).

flea77 Wrote:At least, scientific research. I am not even sure how to describe how it makes you learn. It just does. You kind of learn the "why" behind what you are reading in the books when you are doing research.

As stated above, I'll ask you - what difference a bunch of life-tired professors, a crappy building called a campus, and shitload of dollars spent on this thing make when it comes to research? I was able to research stuff when I was in middle school, it wasn't much of 'official' science(was studying some game engine lacking documentation) but it helped me learn a lot. And I didn't need your stinkin' education to do that.

[flea77]

Ceiling Cat Wrote:As stated above, I'll ask you - what difference a bunch of life-tired professors, a crappy building called a campus, and shitload of dollars spent on this thing make when it comes to research? I was able to research stuff when I was in middle school, it wasn't much of 'official' science(was studying some game engine lacking documentation) but it helped me learn a lot. And I didn't need your stinkin' education to do that.

Please let me tell you

FIrst off... what I am talking about really might only refer to my area of study, mathematics. When it comes to other areas of study, I might be entirely wrong

1) Proffesors..
OK... lets take mathematics. To the guy who said somebody is teaching themselves calculus, that is wonderful. Go for it. You will get more out of it learning it on your own. I'm seriously applauding that person. But calculus in terms of the field of mathematics is incredibly basic. I'm not downing anybody, I"m just being honest. It's about as basic as it gets. Now when you get to more advanced topics that deal with mathematical theory and logical (meaing like theorem-proof mathematics), books will only go so far. Calculus you can teach yourself because somebody has written a bunch of problems to practice, has explained what you are doing at each step. However, when you learn something like real analysis, a book will probably just give you a list of theorems. Then you will get a random theorem and it will say: prove this.

OK... this is something you are NOT going to be able to do without the help of others. IN this case, professors are absolutely invaluable. Because those professors know the answers to those problems. The thing is that in mathematics, once you get to that level, you will not find a book which will explain the steps any more or give you anything to practice. It becomes cut and dry because they expect the profs to pick up where they have left out.

2) Research.
You absoultely can do research on your own. But once again, that comes down to what you are interested in. I was highly interested in viruses before college. I was obsessed with virology. I spent one year in undergrad researching plant viruses. In order to do any legit research in that field, you need access to hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of technology. For example, a single 1 mL tube of a certain enzyme might cost $400! I am not kidding. I needed an electron microscope here and there. I sure can't mail order one of those. I needed PCR machines, RT machines, access to bacteria like e-coli, and plenty of other things which probably cost tens of thousands of dollars if not hundreds of thousands or even millions. Now if I'm at the college, I have access to that. If I'm not, I will never get that access

You will learn an invaluable amount doing actual hands on research. In just one year I learned how to start with an infected leaf of a plant and in the end retrieve and analyse the DNA sequece. It took me months and months of working (that was self paced) to get this far, but I got there. And that is something which no lecture or college class can teach me


Ok now if you are talking about other areas of study you may be entirely right. But at least for the things that interested me in life (mathematics and biochemistry), college was really essential. I WILL say that mathematical theory was the only area in which I truly depended on professors. Everything else I studied, yes you absoultely can teach yourself from a book.

Once again I am not trying to discourage anybody. The guy who is learning calclus I can not praise enough. You should always learn things because they interest you, otherwise you will be miserable! And teaching yourself calculus is something to really be proud of!

[Ceiling Cat]

If you mean the totally abstract and logic maths, you cannot learn or memorize it at all. If you do, all you'll be able to do is passing the empty theory, instead of using it. Such stuff needs to be understood, felt, subconsciously almost. I'm a programmer, so before you try telling me I don't know about it - sorry to prove you wrong, I'm using it all the time. Logical operations and problem solving is a daily matter in this business, the knowledge of the language itself isn't enough. Same with other things. The fact that you say that in microbiology you couldn't do stuff outside of the campus, WRONG. It's just that they monopolized research, to cram up creative but obedient people to take the better positions - so they won't accidentally research something useful that might change things too much.

[flea77]

Ceiling Cat Wrote:If you mean the totally abstract and logic maths, you cannot learn or memorize it at all. If you do, all you'll be able to do is passing the empty theory, instead of using it. Such stuff needs to be understood, felt, subconsciously almost. I'm a programmer, so before you try telling me I don't know about it - sorry to prove you wrong, I'm using it all the time. Logical operations and problem solving is a daily matter in this business, the knowledge of the language itself isn't enough. Same with other things. The fact that you say that in microbiology you couldn't do stuff outside of the campus, WRONG. It's just that they monopolized research, to cram up creative but obedient people to take the better positions - so they won't accidentally research something useful that might change things too much.

Ya you do need logic to do computer programming. I'm working on my masters in computer science right now and I want to be a software engineer and I made that decision because I loved math so much and programming is nearly identical to math in the way you need to think.

But see this is what I'm getting at, what you look at as useless somebody else looks at as invaluable. I was absolutely mesmerized by abstract mathematics. I craved to learn about it, so for me it was not just "empty theorems" which I will never use. For me it was a curiosity which made me want to learn. The fact that you only think mathematics should be "applied" actually makes you more like those who are brainwashed by public education... if you want to learn something only because it will be usefull in a certain field, then what are you becoming educated for anyway? You should learn something because it interests you and you have a passion and a curiousity about it. I never would have studied math so I could get a job. It's a jobless field anyway


What you just said about microbiology made absolutely no sense. I am really curious what you were saying but I think I missed it. Your saying that you do have access to the technology outside of college campuses? Yes, at companies which make use of this sort of research. But unfortunately you will need a college degree to do research in these companies. Call it unfair if you want, but that's how it is. So for example, if you were like me and interested in virology, college is the only way to go if you ever want to research. You can't do anything "usefull" in terms of what I was interested in without the machines, the enzymes, etc.

[Colin]

By the way,

flea77 Wrote:I am just trying to spread the word I guess that college isn't like high school and you can channel your beliefs into the college atmosphere just fine. Like I was saying about how I never attended lectures. I did that because I wanted to discover things on my own. I didn't want to have one way of thinking forced on me. And in the end, I'm better for that. However, that's not something you can really "get away with" in high school.

What do you mean by we can't get away with not having a way of thinking forced upon us?

[flea77]

Colin Wrote:By the way,

flea77 Wrote:I am just trying to spread the word I guess that college isn't like high school and you can channel your beliefs into the college atmosphere just fine. Like I was saying about how I never attended lectures. I did that because I wanted to discover things on my own. I didn't want to have one way of thinking forced on me. And in the end, I'm better for that. However, that's not something you can really "get away with" in high school.

What do you mean by we can't get away with not having a way of thinking forced upon us?

Damn you people want to pick apart every fucking thing don't you??? What I was saying is that obviously in high school teachers, peers, etc look down upon students who wantn to think and learn their own way. That's one of the things that is so fucked up about high school in US and the thing that brainwashes people to be a certain way. What I was saying is that college is a different environment and that kind of thinking is encouraged rather than discouraged. All of you seem to have that kind of thinking and so you would probably enjoy a college atmosphere more than you know

[Colin]

flea77 Wrote:

Colin Wrote:By the way,

flea77 Wrote:I am just trying to spread the word I guess that college isn't like high school and you can channel your beliefs into the college atmosphere just fine. Like I was saying about how I never attended lectures. I did that because I wanted to discover things on my own. I didn't want to have one way of thinking forced on me. And in the end, I'm better for that. However, that's not something you can really "get away with" in high school.

What do you mean by we can't get away with not having a way of thinking forced upon us?

Damn you people want to pick apart every fucking thing don't you??? What I was saying is that obviously in high school teachers, peers, etc look down upon students who wantn to think and learn their own way. That's one of the things that is so fucked up about high school in US and the thing that brainwashes people to be a certain way. What I was saying is that college is a different environment and that kind of thinking is encouraged rather than discouraged. All of you seem to have that kind of thinking and so you would probably enjoy a college atmosphere more than you know

Oh, alright. Hey, sorry if we're driving you nuts, but sometimes your posts lack a sort of...certainty. I agree with you about high school all the way, and I really hope college is like you say. That would be a miracle. But I'll always have my doubts until I'm there.

[magikarp]

Quote:it's not about giving up old ideas for security and comfort. It's about giving up old ideals (not giving them up but modifying them) because you see that they were immature as you learn more and more about life.

Education to me is so valuable now. I love to learn and discover. I have answers to so many questions which I had wondered my entire life now

and I'm only 22 geez give me a break lol you talk as though I'm 40 or something

I meant that more as a joke than a serious criticism. It kind of has to be when you summarize a thousand or so words in one sentence! =P

Quote:I just don't want people to suffer the same way I did. IF you drop out of high school, or plan on getting GED or whatever, I just want people to know that college is so different, and that make sure to really plan and go for college and not just "say it". Stick to it! Because life without education can be very, very difficult as I discovered doing construction work. (and btw I am a woman! I can never begin to tell you how horrible it was!)

I do think that it's different enough, although it's too similar in certain ways. Unlike high school, it's non-compulsory, professors try to teach their subjects rather than teach you to behave how they think you ought to, and most assignments are relevant to the subject. It's also pretty nice to have a decent amount of free time and to be surrounded by people who are studying the same things as you are. Still, I think there's usually the assumption that you're only there in order to do well on tests and to eventually get a degree, and the courses are taught with that in mind. Especially in math courses, there's a lot of emphasis on getting answers without any explanation about why the methods used are valid. I'm sure that varies by school, though.

I wanna point out though, that a college education is useful because other people value it. That's not the same thing as saying it's valuable in itself, although it may be.

flea77 Wrote:It's not like high school where you can essentially bullshit your way through and never have learned much.

Depends where you go, which program you're in, and which year you're in. You need a basic understanding of the course material, but, at least at my university, you really don't need to do much or study much to get good grades, let alone just pass. Mind, I'm only in first year.

[flea77]

Colin Wrote:Oh, alright. Hey, sorry if we're driving you nuts, but sometimes your posts lack a sort of...certainty. I agree with you about high school all the way, and I really hope college is like you say. That would be a miracle. But I'll always have my doubts until I'm there.

LOL I'm sorry I was rude at you... I swear I have the best intentions at heart and agree with you guys and entirely sympathize also because I was exactly the same way.

Just keep in your mind that possibilty that it might be different. I understand your distrust, but hopefully one day you will be able to discover it for yourself and I hope you will find it a really rewarding experience

[flea77]

magikarp Wrote:I do think that it's different enough, although it's too similar in certain ways. Unlike high school, it's non-compulsory, professors try to teach their subjects rather than teach you to behave how they think you ought to, and most assignments are relevant to the subject. It's also pretty nice to have a decent amount of free time and to be surrounded by people who are studying the same things as you are. Still, I think there's usually the assumption that you're only there in order to do well on tests and to eventually get a degree, and the courses are taught with that in mind. Especially in math courses, there's a lot of emphasis on getting answers without any explanation about why the methods used are valid. I'm sure that varies by school, though.

I wanna point out though, that a college education is useful because other people value it. That's not the same thing as saying it's valuable in itself, although it may be.

Ya I agree with you entirely. I guess what I'm trying to get at is that in college it becomes up to you why you want to study. I mean, the vast majority of people go to school just to get a degree, just to get grades, whatever. You know they want the money, the good job, the status whatever. In my opinion, this is a really useless life. I mean if you go to college only to get a grade and you don't care about what you learned and what you think about the subject, you know, then college will probably be a waste in terms of what is truly valuable in life.

I guess I went to college because I was interested in the world around me and I was truly passionate about a few subjects. I didnt care for the grades or the degree itself or by far I don't give a fuck less about the prosteigue or whatever. So IF you go to college under these pretense, I think you will find college is a very, very rewarding experience. And unlike in high school, you actually have this opportunity in college because you can learn what you WANT to learn and what you are interested in.

flea77 Wrote:Depends where you go, which program you're in, and which year you're in. You need a basic understanding of the course material, but, at least at my university, you really don't need to do much or study much to get good grades, let alone just pass. Mind, I'm only in first year.

Ya again, you are really right here. I really overstepped in what I was saying. There are plenty of areas where you can bullshit through.

In all of my posts, I am not referring of going to college you know just to get a "Degree" and considering yourself educated for that reason. I am talking about learning for the passion of learning. I don't think you can ever go wrong when you do that. And I think its something thats really valuable in life to chase your passions.


BTW... if u are in ur first year of college... you might very well find it much like high school in terms of having to learn a whole bunch of different bullshit. I am also referring about when you really get into your area of study.

[Ceiling Cat]

However, I still despise the college for the sheer fact of it being enforced upon everyone. While getting a job, people are looking at the paper, not the knowledge. That's why I'd rather not go to college, just to boycott the stupid system favorizing those who can't improve on their own.

[flea77]

Ceiling Cat Wrote:However, I still despise the college for the sheer fact of it being enforced upon everyone. While getting a job, people are looking at the paper, not the knowledge. That's why I'd rather not go to college, just to boycott the stupid system favorizing those who can't improve on their own.

yes dude u r so right about that. People don't care about the quality of a person, and they don't care about what they have to truly offer. They are just caring about a piece of paper, and that is unfortunate. DOn't even get me started on how fucked up the corporate world is. Honestly I don't want to enter it. I don't think I ever will I will probably end up being a professor

However, in some ways you have to see their point in terms of jobs where specific skills are required. I mean, if you need somebody for a very specific job, a college degree can speak for skills. I mean its like saying if you need to hire somebody to be a nurse, that's going to require some specific training. It's certaintly something I can't do. Or if you need a petroleum engineer, you know they are looking for somebody with certain skills.

You say u r a programmer. And I can really see why you would be frustrated. Because in the field of computer science, seriously, degree does not usually mean shit. I know people who are getting masters right now and can't program hello world in java. You are really right in that there are tons and tons of highly qualified programmers out there who don't have college education. And unfortunately companies won't look at them and that's a loss for the company

But just know that this happens no matter what job you go for, even in jobs not requiring education. There were plenty of construction crews which I tried to get on that wouldn't hire people unless they had so many years of experience. Or you know if you get in the union and become an apprentice or a journeyman, you know its the concept like getting a bachelors or masters. They will hire u right away with certain certifications and u may not be the best for the job. It's the same thing you know. How did they know how good I was v. somebody else?


BUt don't sell YOURSELF short! I mean, you not going to college simply to stick it to the system looses its meaning because one person not going to collge isn't going to to do anything. Effect change by getting in the system and changing it from within. We damn well need people to change the way education is run in the country, I swear. So change it from inside! You will be able to do far more from the inside than on the outside. LOL I am reminding myself of the monologue at the end of SLC Punk...

[Ceiling Cat]

It's about obedience, my friend.

[magikarp]

flea77 Wrote:I know people who are getting masters right now and can't program hello world in java.

But they can probably do it in Python and that's what counts. :3

*waits for flamewar*

[Loxor]

Your college isn't like highschool.

Generilization is what makes school such a bad place, it's quite a bit of you all should be the same.

[SoulRiser]

zOMG, I didn't read all the comments in this thread. But will comment anyway.

I just wanna say: colleges differ. Some will be awesome, some will be mediocre, and some will suck. I went to a college that, while the social side of it was awesome (lots of epic friends), the actual course sucked and was pretty useless.

I'd say the best part of college as opposed to high school, is the fact that you're treated like a human being with thoughts, hopes and dreams that actually matter at least somewhat.

And also, if you eventually want to start your own business, you don't really need qualifications, and would be better off focusing on the actual learning. If you can do that best in college, great. If that's too expensive or time-consuming, there's always other ways to learn.

I just recently found out about "open universities" - they apparently have no entrance requirements. Anyone can just sign up and take courses... as long as they can pay the fees anyway.

Oh and also, a GED is completely equivalent to a high school diploma for all intents and purposes (except for impressing certain individuals which are probably not worth working for or bothering about anyway).

[creepy_doll]

To the OP: Let's not conflate high school and college, bb. NOT the same. I hated the crap out of school. I went to college on the assurance that it would be different, which it completely was. I have a Master's degree, because in college I did in fact enjoy what I was doing and I learned things. School? Not so much. It was like doing time in prison.

No need to lecture kids on this stuff. It's not like public school provides an education in the first place. You learned in comm. college, not public school, amirite? Thus, your story doesn't actually prove the point you're trying to make.

xoxo
Creepy Doll