Native American Property Rights. (Split.)

[happy fool called Nigel]

Quote:History isn't so cut and dry. America isn't "evil." There are evil people in America, and evil people have ruled America, but there have also been good people here too that have also helped shape the history.

I may not be able to say that America is "evil", but I can certainly say that America is
1. An occupation
2. Illegal, for the most part.
3. The largest terrorist organization in the world.
Which pretty much takes away the need to call it evil. :/

[thewake]

happy fool called Nigel Wrote:

Quote:History isn't so cut and dry. America isn't "evil." There are evil people in America, and evil people have ruled America, but there have also been good people here too that have also helped shape the history.

I may not be able to say that America is "evil", but I can certainly say that America is
1. An occupation
2. Illegal, for the most part.
3. The largest terrorist organization in the world.
Which pretty much takes away the need to call it evil. :/

1. Everyone whose land was occupied is DEAD, and everyone who took the land away is DEAD. I'd be happy to give the land I'm on back to the Indian who used to own it, disregarding the fact that natives didn't have property rights, or at least repay him, except for the fact that he's dead.
By this logic almost the entire land area of the world needs to be in the hands, not of the population that currently lives there, but of other groups the land used to belong to. Let's give Asia Minor back to Greece, and Scotland back to the PICTS.
And don't get me started on the depravity of some native empires, see Aztecs for more info.
2. By who's law? Certainly not American law, or even most of national law.
3. Meh, I can't really argue with you there. Although, here I like to make a distinction between the American continents, the American people and country, and the American government.

[happy fool called Nigel]

Quote:1. Everyone whose land was occupied is DEAD, and everyone who took the land away is DEAD. I'd be happy to give the land I'm on back to the Indian who used to own it, disregarding the fact that natives didn't have property rights, or at least repay him, except for the fact that he's dead.
By this logic almost the entire land area of the world needs to be in the hands, not of the population that currently lives there, but of other groups the land used to belong to. Let's give Asia Minor back to Greece, and Scotland back to the PICTS.
And don't get me started on the depravity of some native empires, see Aztecs for more info.
2. By who's law? Certainly not American law, or even most of national law.
3. Meh, I can't really argue with you there. Although, here I like to make a distinction between the American continents, the American people and country, and the American government.

1. I am not dead. You think the land ceases to be occupied and stolen simply because the generations involved have gotten old and died? Native Americans aren't like Picts. We are here. It is our land, and it is being occupied as I speak.
If I steal your house and move my whole family in and then make you move to some shitty ghetto, the house I now "own" is stolen property, right? Well, if I die and my kids inherit it, it's still stolen property. I'm not saying that every non-Indian should go back to their continent of origin. That's unrealistic. I do, however, think that all unused land should be given back to us. And the resources on them.
2. Ever heard of the phrase "broken treaties"? The majority of U.S. territory is either purchased stolen property (A.k.a Mexico stole it, American government bought it off Mexico) or it was simply stolen. In most cases it's just the latter. The U.S. is literally breaking their own land treaties every day, but no one cares (except Indians, obviously).
3. Yeah, I guess I use the term 'America' and 'American government' interchangably, which isn't really correct. Meh..

[thewake]

happy fool called Nigel Wrote:1. I am not dead. You think the land ceases to be occupied and stolen simply because the generations involved have gotten old and died? Native Americans aren't like Picts. We are here. It is our land, and it is being occupied as I speak.
If I steal your house and move my whole family in and then make you move to some shitty ghetto, the house I now "own" is stolen property, right? Well, if I die and my kids inherit it, it's still stolen property. I'm not saying that every non-Indian should go back to their continent of origin. That's unrealistic. I do, however, think that all unused land should be given back to us. And the resources on them.

All unused land? Do you know how much land is just sitting there unowned by anyone but the government? I'm not so sure that a group that is self-identified as 1.37% of the population should be able to have that much land. Yeah, let's just make everyone else second class citizens just because, while they were born here just like you, their ancestors happened to have been born elsewhere. Maybe when the land is sold off there could be preference for Indian buyers, but I'm not buying all of your stuff.
But how do you define Indian? I'm part Native-American (Cherokee, the vast majority of it, although not much), at least 1/32 on my mom's side, and a little more tacked on probably on both sides. I just haven't done my genealogy all the way yet. Should I be considered an Indian? What about the Lumbee's, they aren't even a federally recognized tribe? (But who would want to be a federally recognized tribe? People who live on reservations live in conditions that are the closest to the 3rd world in America.)

Quote:U.S. territory is either purchased stolen property (A.k.a Mexico stole it, American government bought it off Mexico) or it was simply stolen. In most cases it's just the latter. The U.S. is literally breaking their own land treaties every day, but no one cares (except Indians, obviously).

What are we supposed to do? The individuals who originally had the land are dead and the people who now own the land committed no wrong. I'm not willing to condemn whole countries and populations for something their ancestors did when they, as individuals, did no wrong. And, to explain, I'm one to believe that the individual is the unit of society and not a race, nation, or tribe. Guilt lies on individual people, not institutions, countries, nations, or tribes. In fact, I find the whole affiliation to some group just because I happen to have the same ancestry as them silly. Sure, if I believe what they believe I might, but my main loyalty is to me.

Quote:3. Yeah, I guess I use the term 'America' and 'American government' interchangably, which isn't really correct. Meh..

Well, most people do.

I hope I don't come off as harsh, but that's how I feel. Everyone has had wrongs done to their ancestors if you go far enough back, but that doesn't mean I should be able to claim something has been done to hurt me.

[happy fool called Nigel]

Quote:All unused land? Do you know how much land is just sitting there unowned by anyone but the government? I'm not so sure that a group that is self-identified as 1.37% of the population should be able to have that much land. Yeah, let's just make everyone else second class citizens just because, while they were born here just like you, their ancestors happened to have been born elsewhere. Maybe when the land is sold off there could be preference for Indian buyers, but I'm not buying all of your stuff.
But how do you define Indian? I'm part Native-American (Cherokee, the vast majority of it, although not much), at least 1/32 on my mom's side, and a little more tacked on probably on both sides. I just haven't done my genealogy all the way yet. Should I be considered an Indian? What about the Lumbee's, they aren't even a federally recognized tribe? (But who would want to be a federally recognized tribe? People who live on reservations live in conditions that are the closest to the 3rd world in America.)

Pretty much all of it. Most of it was promised to us anyways, and in case you haven't noticed, the environment has taken a pretty big downturn ever since the Europeans took over. I don't have anything against the immigrants my homeland, but there need to be boundies. All the land that is already being lived in by immigrants: Keep it. It's yours. All the rest: The government need to give it back to us. It's rightfully ours.
As far as who is Indian:
If someone is a registered member of a tribe (federally recognized or not), I usually consider them Indians. As far as 'white Indians' go, I think that if you are mixed race and one of your parents passes as Indian, then you're indian. If it's just your great grandmother or something than no.
(Also, it's 2 percent, and it's not our fault that we're a minority. Smallpox, genocide and forced sterilization.)

Quote:What are we supposed to do? The individuals who originally had the land are dead and the people who now own the land committed no wrong. I'm not willing to condemn whole countries and populations for something their ancestors did when they, as individuals, did no wrong. And, to explain, I'm one to believe that the individual is the unit of society and not a race, nation, or tribe. Guilt lies on individual people, not institutions, countries, nations, or tribes. In fact, I find the whole affiliation to some group just because I happen to have the same ancestry as them silly. Sure, if I believe what they believe I might, but my main loyalty is to me.

First of all, I don't fight for Native rights just because I have native blood. For me it's about my religion, the culture, and my family and friends. I am part of a community. Or, as you put it, a society.

Anyways, here is what should happen. The American Government should say "Hey, Native Americans nations, sorry for breaking your treaties every day for the past 300 years. We will now give back all of the land we have been choosing to withhold from you, and also we will recognize you as actual countries with real rights. All of those mining companies and housing developers will now report to you when they want to fuck up your graveyards and steal your resouces like they've been doing for the past century or so." Because those things have been happening. Along with plenty of other stuff. The destruction of our sacred lands for profit. Forced boarding schools. Forced sterilization. Police brutality. Pedophile rings. Rape. Muder. All of these things have been taking place during the last few 50 years.
You know how when you look back at your genealogy and find some great great great uncle or something from Ireland, and then you can go visit his grave in some church in Dublin? I can't do that. You know where my ancestors are? They got dug up by white people who wanted to build houses and hotels. The government took all of the bones and sorted them out by part, and now they're sitting in cardboard boxes all mixed up in some basement in UCLA. Or they're underneath some parking lot or in an unmarked mass grave at the local mission. It's not like none of this stuff has an effect on me, you know.

And also I don't blame regular white people for what their ancestors did. I just want the government to do give us back what's ours, stop fucking with us, and do what's right.

]

[happy fool called Nigel]

Quote:All unused land? Do you know how much land is just sitting there unowned by anyone but the government? I'm not so sure that a group that is self-identified as 1.37% of the population should be able to have that much land. Yeah, let's just make everyone else second class citizens just because, while they were born here just like you, their ancestors happened to have been born elsewhere. Maybe when the land is sold off there could be preference for Indian buyers, but I'm not buying all of your stuff.
But how do you define Indian? I'm part Native-American (Cherokee, the vast majority of it, although not much), at least 1/32 on my mom's side, and a little more tacked on probably on both sides. I just haven't done my genealogy all the way yet. Should I be considered an Indian? What about the Lumbee's, they aren't even a federally recognized tribe? (But who would want to be a federally recognized tribe? People who live on reservations live in conditions that are the closest to the 3rd world in America.)

Pretty much all of it. Most of it was promised to us anyways, and in case you haven't noticed, the environment has taken a pretty big downturn ever since the Europeans took over. I don't have anything against the immigrants my homeland, but there need to be boundies. All the land that is already being lived in by immigrants: Keep it. It's yours. All the rest: The government need to give it back to us. It's rightfully ours.
As far as who is Indian:
If someone is a registered member of a tribe (federally recognized or not), I usually consider them Indians. As far as 'white Indians' go, I think that if you are mixed race and one of your parents passes as Indian, then you're indian. If it's just your great grandmother or something than no.
(Also, it's 2 percent, and it's not our fault that we're a minority. Smallpox, genocide and forced sterilization have brought down our population numbers.)

Quote:What are we supposed to do? The individuals who originally had the land are dead and the people who now own the land committed no wrong. I'm not willing to condemn whole countries and populations for something their ancestors did when they, as individuals, did no wrong. And, to explain, I'm one to believe that the individual is the unit of society and not a race, nation, or tribe. Guilt lies on individual people, not institutions, countries, nations, or tribes. In fact, I find the whole affiliation to some group just because I happen to have the same ancestry as them silly. Sure, if I believe what they believe I might, but my main loyalty is to me.

First of all, I don't fight for Native rights just because I have native blood. For me it's about my religion, the culture, and my family and friends. I am part of a community. Or, as you put it, a society.

Anyways, here is what should happen. The American Government should say "Hey, Native Americans nations, sorry for breaking your treaties every day for the past 300 years. We will now give back all of the land we have been choosing to withhold from you, and also we will recognize you as actual countries with real rights. All of those mining companies and housing developers will now report to you when they want to fuck up your graveyards and steal your resouces like they've been doing for the past century or so." Because those things have been happening. Along with plenty of other stuff. The destruction of our sacred lands for profit. Forced boarding schools. Forced sterilization. Police brutality. Pedophile rings. Rape. Muder. All of these things have been taking place during the last few 50 years.
You know how when you look back at your genealogy and find some great great great uncle or something from Ireland, and then you can go visit his grave in some church in Dublin? I can't do that. You know where my ancestors are? They got dug up by white people who wanted to build houses and hotels. The government took all of the bones and sorted them out by part, and now they're sitting in cardboard boxes all mixed up in some basement in UCLA. Or they're underneath some parking lot or in an unmarked mass grave at the local mission. It's not like none of this stuff has an effect on me, you know.

And also I don't blame regular white people for what their ancestors did. I just want the government to do give us back what's ours, treat us like equals, and let move on.

[SH☮TGUNHEⒶRT]

[Aya]

Lol, I told my grandmother about this conversation (not the site just the convo). She's from Maine and has enough Iroquois blood in her to be part of the nation.

Her response:

"This Nigel kid needs to get the fuck over it"

XD

I love you grandma!

[thewake]

happy fool called Nigel Wrote:Pretty much all of it. Most of it was promised to us anyways, and in case you haven't noticed, the environment has taken a pretty big downturn ever since the Europeans took over. I don't have anything against the immigrants my homeland, but there need to be boundies. All the land that is already being lived in by immigrants: Keep it. It's yours. All the rest: The government need to give it back to us. It's rightfully ours.

The government is going to keep the land, regardless of what is right or wrong.

Quote:As far as who is Indian:
If someone is a registered member of a tribe (federally recognized or not), I usually consider them Indians. As far as 'white Indians' go, I think that if you are mixed race and one of your parents passes as Indian, then you're indian. If it's just your great grandmother or something than no.
(Also, it's 2 percent, and it's not our fault that we're a minority. Smallpox, genocide and forced sterilization.)

Wikipedia gave me the number, but you're probably right. What about black Indians, descendants of slaves of tribes like the Cherokee?

Quote:First of all, I don't fight for Native rights just because I have native blood. For me it's about my religion, the culture, and my family and friends. I am part of a community. Or, as you put it, a society.

Be part of the culture. Be with your family and friends. Nobody's stopping you, at least I'm not. The era of active persecution is long gone, most of the evil done to Natives now is perpetrated by the government policies designed to help Natives.

Quote:Anyways, here is what should happen. The American Government should say [i]"Hey, Native Americans nations, sorry for breaking your treaties every day for the past 300 years. We will now give back all of the land we have been choosing to withhold from you, and also we will recognize you as actual countries with real rights. All of those mining companies and housing developers will now report to you when they want to fuck up your graveyards and steal your resouces like they've been doing for the past century or so."

Because 2 percent of the population deserves how much land to be given by the government?

Quote:Because those things have been happening. Along with plenty of other stuff. The destruction of our sacred lands for profit. Forced boarding schools. Forced sterilization. Police brutality. Pedophile rings. Rape. Muder. All of these things have been taking place during the last few 50 years.

And I'm sure only Indians have been raped and sterilized, had police brutality committed against them, and everything else.
The boarding school thing is generally an Indian problem though, I'll give you that. But may I ask, have you been forced into a boarding school?

Quote:You know how when you look back at your genealogy and find some great great great uncle or something from Ireland, and then you can go visit his grave in some church in Dublin? I can't do that. You know where my ancestors are? They got dug up by white people who wanted to build houses and hotels. The government took all of the bones and sorted them out by part, and now they're sitting in cardboard boxes all mixed up in some basement in UCLA. Or they're underneath some parking lot or in an unmarked mass grave at the local mission. It's not like none of this stuff has an effect on me, you know.

And you're mad, but there is absolutely nothing that can be done about that. It's not like I or anybody else can change the past.

Quote:And also I don't blame regular white people for what their ancestors did. I just want the government to do give us back what's ours, stop fucking with us, and do what's right.

Is it your's anymore?

And don't give me this bull that European colonization hasn't been, as a whole a benefit for surviving Native peoples. Sure, it could have been done differently, but the past is past.

A) Smallpox, diseases and etc. Could not be helped. It's not like white people said, "Hey, let's go give them Injuns smallpox." But guess what? Now Natives have access to Western healthcare.

B) There were very barbaric Native peoples. Some practiced cannibalism, some (think Aztecs) practiced human sacrifice. Now that stuff is gone, along with much of the primitive beliefs that justified them.

C) Hell, the wheel didn't even exist in pre-Colombian America. That's not necessarily because Natives are dumb, they're just as smart as other races, but there's no denying that they did not have the wheel or other technologies. Now Native Americans can get on the Internet, drive cars, etc.

D) Hell, an American Indian has even been Vice President.

[happy fool called Nigel]

Quote:The government is going to keep the land, regardless of what is right or wrong.

The American government will entually shrink and die like the Roman government did. I just want to get the land back before from them they sell it off to logging companies because of all their war debt. I'm thinking about the future.

Quote:Wikipedia gave me the number, but you're probably right. What about black Indians, descendants of slaves of tribes like the Cherokee?

I guess I feel the same way, although black people didn't chose to come here, so I generally have more sympathy for them. Although that might not be fair.

Quote:Be part of the culture. Be with your family and friends. Nobody's stopping you, at least I'm not. The era of active persecution is long gone, most of the evil done to Natives now is perpetrated by the government policies designed to help Natives.

That's true. The paternal policies of the government do sometimes work against us.

Quote:Because 2 percent of the population deserves how much land to be given by the government?

A lot. There's actually a law already that Indians can occupy unused federal buildings (see Alcatraz) but I believe it should be extended to land.

Quote:And I'm sure only Indians have been raped and sterilized, had police brutality committed against them, and everything else.

Does that mean you're agreeing with me? (sarcastically?)

Quote:The boarding school thing is generally an Indian problem though, I'll give you that. But may I ask, have you been forced into a boarding school?

Most of the boarding schools have finally been shut down, although many of the survivors are still alive. I have friends whose grandparents are survivors.

Quote:And you're mad, but there is absolutely nothing that can be done about that. It's not like I or anybody else can change the past.

I know that, I'm just trying to show people that the past has an a huge effect on people today.

Quote:Is it your's anymore?

It belongs to me and my tribe, yes. We have been living here for millions of years, and just becuase someone decides to squat on it doesn't mean we don't have rights to it.

Quote:And don't give me this bull that European colonization hasn't been, as a whole a benefit for surviving Native peoples. Sure, it could have been done differently, but the past is past.

A) Smallpox, diseases and etc. Could not be helped. It's not like white people said, "Hey, let's go give them Injuns smallpox." But guess what? Now Natives have access to Western healthcare.

But guess what? We didn't need western health care before! Before white people arrived we didn't needed dentists because we ate natural food that didn't corrode our teeth. We weren't dying of diabetes like every male on my fathers side, because we weren't eating fatty European food. We never needed money for rehab because we didn't have any alcohol. We were more fit and more healthy because we were hunter gatherers. Native Americans now have the highest alcoholism and substance abuse rates of any ethnicity in the U.S. We have extremely high diabetes and obesity rates as well. This shit happened because we were forced into a European way of life. So don't tell me we've been saved by white people. Because we haven't.

Quote:B) There were very barbaric Native peoples. Some practiced cannibalism, some (think Aztecs) practiced human sacrifice. Now that stuff is gone, along with much of the primitive beliefs that justified them.

First of all, that shit about "primitive beliefs" is a joke. You guys had all sorts of fucking diseases when you got here, you smelled like shit because you thought that taking a bath would kill you, you were throwing your poop in the street, you had no clue how to properly design a house, and your science and weaponry was stolen from other people. Who invented iron? Who invented gun powder? Who invented algebra? Not Europeans, that's for sure.

As far as Aztecs go, I fucking hate Aztec civilization, and in a lot of those places the peasants were rebelling against their rulers anyways. I'm a California Indian, not an Aztec. My tribe were advanced, we were able to sustain our economy with out starting a war every decade (hint hint), and we never practiced cannibalism. Don't try to blame me for some shit that went down thousands of miles away.

Quote:C) Hell, the wheel didn't even exist in pre-Colombian America. That's not necessarily because Natives are dumb, they're just as smart as other races, but there's no denying that they did not have the wheel or other technologies. Now Native Americans can get on the Internet, drive cars, etc.

We didn't need the wheel. And it was invented in the Middle East. And the reason you guys had more technology was because of trade routes from Asia and Africa that aloud new ideas to come in. If you were as isolated as us you would've been at the same level of technology.
And yes, we may have internet and cars, but those things are just compensation for the disconnected, fractured society that we live in these days. We also have multiple species dying off every day, massive ocean pollution, suburban sprawl, and global warming. I'd rather have primitive technology than environmental death, personally.

[psychopath]

who cares man

[thewake]

happy fool called Nigel Wrote:The American government will entually shrink and die like the Roman government did. I just want to get the land back before from them they sell it off to logging companies because of all their war debt. I'm thinking about the future.

Won't die if I have anything to say about it.

Quote:

Quote:Wikipedia gave me the number, but you're probably right. What about black Indians, descendants of slaves of tribes like the Cherokee?

I guess I feel the same way, although black people didn't chose to come here, so I generally have more sympathy for them. Although that might not be fair.

I didn't choose to be born in America. I'm just as much "native" as you are in that respect.

Quote:

Quote:Be part of the culture. Be with your family and friends. Nobody's stopping you, at least I'm not. The era of active persecution is long gone, most of the evil done to Natives now is perpetrated by the government policies designed to help Natives.

That's true. The paternal policies of the government do sometimes work against us.

Yep. Go be Native. I don't care.
And I'm against paternalism. Get rid of the Bureau of Indian Affairs. There's no bureau of Indian affair for immigrants from India, and they're all doctors (hyperbole, of course).

Quote:

Quote:Because 2 percent of the population deserves how much land to be given by the government?

A lot. There's actually a law already that Indians can occupy unused federal buildings (see Alcatraz) but I believe it should be extended to land.

A lot of the land would be occupied by whites too, I suspect, if it wasn't owned by the government.

Quote:

Quote:And I'm sure only Indians have been raped and sterilized, had police brutality committed against them, and everything else.

Does that mean you're agreeing with me? (sarcastically?)

Almost every ethnic group has been through hell and oppressed at one time or another. That's what I'm saying.

Quote:

Quote:The boarding school thing is generally an Indian problem though, I'll give you that. But may I ask, have you been forced into a boarding school?

Most of the boarding schools have finally been shut down, although many of the survivors are still alive. I have friends whose grandparents are survivors.

Then re-compensate those people in some way, but you, my friend, haven't been wronged in that way.

Quote:

Quote:And you're mad, but there is absolutely nothing that can be done about that. It's not like I or anybody else can change the past.

I know that, I'm just trying to show people that the past has an a huge effect on people today.

Yeah. But do we dwell on it or move beyond it? Will it scar you or will you move on?

Quote:

Quote:Is it your's anymore?

It belongs to me and my tribe, yes. We have been living here for millions of years, and just becuase someone decides to squat on it doesn't mean we don't have rights to it.

You've been living here for less that 30 years. Not millions. Sure, people who you share certain genetic characteristics and the remnants of a culture with lived that long ago, but not you.

Quote:But guess what? We didn't need western health care before! Before white people arrived we didn't needed dentists because we ate natural food that didn't corrode our teeth.

Any food with sugars in it will hurt teeth. In fact, corn is native to America and High fructose corn syrup is derived from it.

Quote:We weren't dying of diabetes like every male on my fathers side, because we weren't eating fatty European food.

Don't eat fatty food then. I'm not stopping you. Obviously European food tastes better than Native food, or you'd still be eating that.

Quote:We never needed money for rehab because we didn't have any alcohol. We were more fit and more healthy because we were hunter gatherers.

There's a reason agrarian societies supplanted hunter-gatherer societies in most of the world: Because they allow for a more stable food supply and a larger population

Quote:Native Americans now have the highest alcoholism and substance abuse rates of any ethnicity in the U.S. We have extremely high diabetes and obesity rates as well. This shit happened because we were forced into a European way of life.

Or does it happen because Indians on reservations live off the government in a system most akin to Soviet central planning than anything else in America?
Not the Indian's fault, but not my fault either.

Quote:So don't tell me we've been saved by white people. Because we haven't.

Not by white people, but by innovations introduced to the Americas by whites.

Quote:First of all, that shit about "primitive beliefs" is a joke. You guys had all sorts of fucking diseases when you got here, you smelled like shit because you thought that taking a bath would kill you, you were throwing your poop in the street, you had no clue how to properly design a house, and your science and weaponry was stolen from other people.

I don't consider the Spaniards, the French, or the English "my guys." I'm me first, and an American second.

Quote:Who invented iron? Who invented gun powder? Who invented algebra? Not Europeans, that's for sure.

So now all that stuff is bad? Sure, whites didn't invent it, but white people have invented a lot of other stuff, and have improved upon those technologies. Any other race would have progressed basically the same, though, given the circumstances.

Quote:As far as Aztecs go, I fucking hate Aztec civilization, and in a lot of those places the peasants were rebelling against their rulers anyways. I'm a California Indian, not an Aztec. My tribe were advanced, we were able to sustain our economy with out starting a war every decade (hint hint), and we never practiced cannibalism. Don't try to blame me for some shit that went down thousands of miles away.

I never blamed you, just pointing out that Native civilization is human and has oppressed people too.

Quote:We didn't need the wheel.

All you need is food, water, and shelter, but the wheel sure helps.

Quote:And it was invented in the Middle East. And the reason you guys had more technology was because of trade routes from Asia and Africa that aloud new ideas to come in. If you were as isolated as us you would've been at the same level of technology.

Whites took Indians out of isolation, how is that bad? Never said Europeans invented the wheel.

Quote:And yes, we may have internet and cars, but those things are just compensation for the disconnected, fractured society that we live in these days. We also have multiple species dying off every day, massive ocean pollution, suburban sprawl, and global warming. I'd rather have primitive technology than environmental death, personally.

Except the environment isn't dying, and global warming is junk science, or at the very least over-hyped. Western civilization, while not perfect, has probably done a lot of good.

Rationalism, humanism, the scientific method. Capitalism, individualism, republics, rule of law.

[Aya]

Wow... Thanks guys I think understand why my grandmother chose not to join the Iroquios. The issue of native rights comes up and both sides turn into complete assholes.

Wes: you are unabashedly racist. Just because Europeans were more technologically advanced does not make them better than natives. Your comments remind me of a story I read online a few years ago about the discovery of a lost Amazonian tribe called the Mekyntire. This group of 80+ men women and children were found in the jungle and the first thing people were thinking was how to introduce them to civilization. As if shooting arrows at a helicopter wasn't a clear enough way of saying 'fuck off!'.

People have a right to live their lives as they see fit in the societies that they have collectively designed, for better or for worse. That is their right as human beings. In fact there is a growing trend in this country, among white people, to go back and at least learn primitive living techniques. Some go so far as to renounce western civilization completely. That's their choice. You're not better than them because you choose to stay in this society.

Nigel: From one native to another: Get the fuck over it. Not only has it been 200-500 years (depending on the location) since natives have been striped of their land but there are so many people in this country with native blood that it would be impossible to sort through the population and determine who has a right to the land and who doesn't.

[HeartofShadows]

Ayliana Wrote:Wow... Thanks guys I think understand why my grandmother chose not to join the Iroquios. The issue of native rights comes up and both sides turn into complete assholes.

Wes: you are unabashedly racist. Just because Europeans were more technologically advanced does not make them better than natives. Your comments remind me of a story I read online a few years ago about the discovery of a lost Amazonian tribe called the Mekyntire. This group of 80+ men women and children were found in the jungle and the first thing people were thinking was how to introduce them to civilization. As if shooting arrows at a helicopter wasn't a clear enough way of saying 'fuck off!'.

People have a right to live their lives as they see fit in the societies that they have collectively designed, for better or for worse. That is their right as human beings. In fact there is a growing trend in this country, among white people, to go back and at least learn primitive living techniques. Some go so far as to renounce western civilization completely. That's their choice. You're not better than them because you choose to stay in this society.

This reminds me of an article I was reading some time ago about Mexicans families that were complaining and withdrawing their kids from public education for home school because they felt their kids were not learning anything useful and that many other Mexican families had kids who didn't know anything about living off the land, taking care of themselves or worse forgetting alot of it.
Still can't fault the parasites for wanting to spread their civilization as thats what they've been taught to do.

[happy fool called Nigel]

I'm going to skip over few of your points that I see as pointless (lol) but you can take me up on them as you wish.

Weswammy Wrote:Yep. Go be Native. I don't care.
And I'm against paternalism. Get rid of the Bureau of Indian Affairs. There's no bureau of Indian affair for immigrants from India, and they're all doctors (hyperbole, of course).

I have mixed views on the BIA. I guess I believe that if the U.S. government is going to govern us Indians, than they should at least give us a hand with the poverty that they helped create. On the other hand, I also hate the BIA becuase they hunder Indian independance and have murdered a lot of Indians. So I don't know.

Weswammy Wrote:A lot of the land would be occupied by whites too, I suspect, if it wasn't owned by the government.

It depends how the government handled the situation. They could distribute it among us in a way that would be peaceful and benefit us, or they could just let us duke it out with ranchers and security forces employed by logging and oil corporation.

In all likelihood they'll probably just keep the land, sell everything on it to companies who would destroy it for money, and then eventually collapse from the inside and then who knows what. Maybe we'll take care of it after that, or maybe there won't be anything to take care of.

Weswammy Wrote:Almost every ethnic group has been through hell and oppressed at one time or another. That's what I'm saying.

And almost every ethnic group has done something about it. Which is what I am trying to do.

Weswammy Wrote:Then re-compensate those people in some way, but you, my friend, haven't been wronged in that way.

Weswammy Wrote:And you're mad, but there is absolutely nothing that can be done about that. It's not like I or anybody else can change the past.

happy fool called Nigel Wrote:I know that, I'm just trying to show people that the past has an a huge effect on people today.

Weswammy Wrote:Yeah. But do we dwell on it or move beyond it? Will it scar you or will you move on?

Actually, I was wrong. This isn't in the past. I guess I was thinking about the bones that have already been defiled, but after I wrote that I realized that this is still going on. In fact, as we speak, a hotel is scheduled to be built on one of my tribe's burial grounds. Obviously I don't go around crying about it all the time, but yes, I will continue to seek justice until justice is served.

Weswammy Wrote:You've been living here for less that 30 years. Not millions. Sure, people who you share certain genetic characteristics and the remnants of a culture with lived that long ago, but not you.

You're saying that I don't deserve to get land back because it wasn't stolen from me. But according to that logic, none of the white people in America deserve any of thier land, because they didn't steal it. The people who stole it were, as you say, "people who.. share certain genetic characteristics and the remnants of a culture with lived that long ago", so why should white people today get land just because their ancestors stole it from someone else? If land onwership dies with the individual, why does anybody own any land these days? What gives the government the right to own any of the land it owns?

Weswammy Wrote:Don't eat fatty food then. I'm not stopping you. Obviously European food tastes better than Native food, or you'd still be eating that.

1. Sugar is the second most addictive substance in the world.
2. I can't hunt any animals where I live, becuase there aren't any wild animals here. Although there used to be before the Europeans arrived. (cough cough)
3. If i want raw, organic food, I have to buy it. Which, in case you didn't notice, is really fucking expensive. Why do you think poor people have higher rates of obesity? Becuase junk is cheap! Most people on reservations have the choice between junk food at the corner store and driving 50 miles to the nearest Whole Foods and spending 200 dollars on 3 days worth of groceries. What would you do?

Weswammy Wrote:There's a reason agrarian societies supplanted hunter-gatherer societies in most of the world: Because they allow for a more stable food supply and a larger population.

And there is a reason why hunter gatherers still exist today, whereas most agrarian societies are becoming catastrophically fucked: More food allows for more over-population. Why do you think we only took up a sparse amount of land in the old days? We did it becuase we believed in taking only what we need from the earth and saving the rest for posterity. And we did fine. For millions of years. Now, how many years has it been since the Industrial Revolution? 200 years? Look what's happening! I don't think I should need to tell you how fucking wack the world is right now. If you can't already see it, you should travel a bit.

happy fool called Nigel Wrote:So don't tell me we've been saved by white people. Because we haven't.

Weswammy Wrote:I don't consider the Spaniards, the French, or the English "my guys." I'm me first, and an American second.

Pilgrims weren't Americans? I'm talking about white people, and I'm assuming you're white. As well as American, and, as you so aptly put it, you.

Weswammy Wrote:So now all that stuff is bad? Sure, whites didn't invent it, but white people have invented a lot of other stuff, and have improved upon those technologies. Any other race would have progressed basically the same, though, given the circumstances.

When Chinese people invented gunpowder, they used it for fireworks. Then Europenans discovered it and made guns. Guns are not an "improvement", they are one of the most filthy, life-destroying inventions known to man and have caused more misery and chaos than either of us can comprehend.

Do I think white people innately create evil things? No. Have they created evil things where other haven't? Yes, that's a fact. The Chinese had the same level of technology and they didn't do what Europeans did.

Weswammy Wrote:I never blamed you, just pointing out that Native civilization is human and has oppressed people too.

Yes, but that's because civilization it's self requires violence against other humans. Tribal, hunter-gather society, however, does not.

That isn't to say we never had violence. As you said, we are humans, and humans engage in violence. Here's the thing: The way of life that Europeans introduced to us is a way of life that depends on violence. It depends on violence because it requires on that resources be imported, it depends on violence because it demands expansion, and it depends on violence becuase it doesn't take no for an answer. [/size]

Hunter-gather society is the opposite. It is sustainable, it uses what is near, it strives to be small scale, and it recognizes the Earth as a higher authority. It doesn't depend on violence towards other humans, and [i]it works.

Weswammy Wrote:Except the environment isn't dying, and global warming is junk science, or at the very least over-hyped. Western civilization, while not perfect, has probably done a lot of good.

Let me say this, so maybe, hopefully, it will sink in. We. Currently. Have. The. Highest. Species. Extinction. Rate. Since. The. Death. Of. The. Dinosaurs.


Does that mean anything to you? Does the fact that over 90% of fish in the deep sea are now gone mean anything to you? Does the fact that there are islands of trash, miles wide, floating in the ocean mean anything to you? Species dying on a regular basis? Rivers that can no longer sustain any life? Forests with no mammals in left in them? Deserts repacking fertile land more every year?

Weswammy Wrote:Rationalism, humanism, the scientific method. Capitalism, individualism, republics, rule of law.

Fascism, racism, sexism, the destruction of the Earth. Corporatism, the death of the family unit, dictatorships, rule of the priveleged few.

Every coin has two sides, my friend.

[happy fool called Nigel]

Ayliana Wrote:Wow... Thanks guys I think understand why my grandmother chose not to join the Iroquios. The issue of native rights comes up and both sides turn into complete assholes.

Wes: you are unabashedly racist. Just because Europeans were more technologically advanced does not make them better than natives. Your comments remind me of a story I read online a few years ago about the discovery of a lost Amazonian tribe called the Mekyntire. This group of 80+ men women and children were found in the jungle and the first thing people were thinking was how to introduce them to civilization. As if shooting arrows at a helicopter wasn't a clear enough way of saying 'fuck off!'.

People have a right to live their lives as they see fit in the societies that they have collectively designed, for better or for worse. That is their right as human beings. In fact there is a growing trend in this country, among white people, to go back and at least learn primitive living techniques. Some go so far as to renounce western civilization completely. That's their choice. You're not better than them because you choose to stay in this society.

Nigel: From one native to another: Get the fuck over it. Not only has it been 200-500 years (depending on the location) since natives have been striped of their land but there are so many people in this country with native blood that it would be impossible to sort through the population and determine who has a right to the land and who doesn't.

Thank you for the sympathy (not being sarcastic). You do make a good point about racial mixing. I know it gets murky some times, but it's better to be murky than just let to government sell it all off to logging companies, isn't it? And I guess I have been kind of sidetracked by the larger issue when it comes to the land, which is that we need to save it. Regardless of who will own it. I just don't think the government will do what's right.

[.Manicrose.]

Weswammy Wrote:Except the environment isn't dying, and global warming is junk science, or at the very least over-hyped.

[thewake]

happy fool called Nigel Wrote:I have mixed views on the BIA. I guess I believe that if the U.S. government is going to govern us Indians, than they should at least give us a hand with the poverty that they helped create. On the other hand, I also hate the BIA becuase they hunder Indian independance and have murdered a lot of Indians. So I don't know.

They'll help you more by leaving you along than by giving you "help."

Quote:It depends how the government handled the situation. They could distribute it among us in a way that would be peaceful and benefit us, or they could just let us duke it out with ranchers and security forces employed by logging and oil corporation.

In all likelihood they'll probably just keep the land, sell everything on it to companies who would destroy it for money, and then eventually collapse from the inside and then who knows what. Maybe we'll take care of it after that, or maybe there won't be anything to take care of.

Can't help what they will do, but I'm all for Native having a preference for the land, but I'm also not against loggers logging, or oil companies drilling. Better to drill here than import it where tankers have to travel long distances and end up polluting even more, with a higher incidence of oil spills. Heck, even offshore drilling is ultimately going to spill less oil than those tankers.

Quote:And almost every ethnic group has done something about it. Which is what I am trying to do.

Cool.

Quote:Actually, I was wrong. This isn't in the past. I guess I was thinking about the bones that have already been defiled, but after I wrote that I realized that this is still going on. In fact, as we speak, a hotel is scheduled to be built on one of my tribe's burial grounds. Obviously I don't go around crying about it all the time, but yes, I will continue to seek justice until justice is served.

Well, I can't condone digging up Indian burial grounds. But you have to look at it from the side of the developers: They paid for the land, made an investment, took a risk. If they can't get a return on their investment, they might be ruined. And somebody's hide will probably be on the line even if the investors only have a minor loss.

Quote:You're saying that I don't deserve to get land back because it wasn't stolen from me. But according to that logic, none of the white people in America deserve any of thier land, because they didn't steal it.

I didn't steal any of the land I'm on.

Quote:The people who stole it were, as you say, "people who.. share certain genetic characteristics and the remnants of a culture with lived that long ago", so why should white people today get land just because their ancestors stole it from someone else? If land onwership dies with the individual, why does anybody own any land these days? What gives the government the right to own any of the land it owns?

You have to look at it realistically. The old order, however much you wish for it, has changed. The land isn't the Indian's anymore, however much it should be their's. Don't get me wrong, Indians deserve as much respect and dignity as everybody else. But you can't go through life acting like people owe you something, you should move on and try to make a better lot for yourself with what you have, and complaining to white people who, most of them, give less of a shit and sympathize with you less than I do won't help.

Quote:1. Sugar is the second most addictive substance in the world.

Probably because if we had no sugars or carbohydrates of any sort we'd die. And that's assuming that sugar is that addictive, which I highly doubt. It'd have to be less addictive than meth, crack cocaine, morphine, or nicotine (a Native-American drug I might add). But not less addictive than all of them, only one. Or maybe more addictive than all of them, with another substance being more addictive.

And like I said, there are sugars in corn, what Indians grew.

Quote:2. I can't hunt any animals where I live, becuase there aren't any wild animals here. Although there used to be before the Europeans arrived. (cough cough)

There are wild animals here. Maybe not enough to sustain a human population, but hunting could be a part of your life if you really wanted to.

Quote:3. If i want raw, organic food, I have to buy it. Which, in case you didn't notice, is really fucking expensive. Why do you think poor people have higher rates of obesity? Becuase junk is cheap! Most people on reservations have the choice between junk food at the corner store and driving 50 miles to the nearest Whole Foods and spending 200 dollars on 3 days worth of groceries. What would you do?

Organic food =/= healthy. And there are ways to eat healthier on a lower income diet, if you did research.

http://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1CHK ... n+a+budget

Quote:And there is a reason why hunter gatherers still exist today,

On the Steppes and in the desert where agriculture on a large scale is hard to accomplish? Yes, that's where they generally exist.

Quote:whereas most agrarian societies are becoming catastrophically fucked: More food allows for more over-population.

Over-population? What time period do you live in? The seventies? Debunk'd

Quote: Why do you think we only took up a sparse amount of land in the old days? We did it becuase we believed in taking only what we need from the earth and saving the rest for posterity. And we did fine. For millions of years.

You mean lived like Cro-Magnons, for millions of years. I don't call that doing fine, or going back to that desirable, even if all our ancestors did it at one time or another.

And you forget, there were Indians had farms too.

Quote:Now, how many years has it been since the Industrial Revolution? 200 years? Look what's happening! I don't think I should need to tell you how fucking wack the world is right now. If you can't already see it, you should travel a bit.

I haven't traveled, sorry for my ignorance. Seems to be okay where I am.

Quote:Pilgrims weren't Americans?

Nope. Englishmen. But yes, I see where you're coming from. But Americans today, or even many of the colonists in the Revolution, didn't choose to be here. I didn't come here and take your land. It is not my fault, and I know you don't blame me, but I think it needs to be stated explicitly. I want to be proud of my heritage, my American heritage just like you want to be proud of your Native-American heritage. As a matter of fact, my American heritage includes your Native-American heritage.

Quote:When Chinese people invented gunpowder, they used it for fireworks. Then Europenans discovered it and made guns. Guns are not an "improvement", they are one of the most filthy, life-destroying inventions known to man and have caused more misery and chaos than either of us can comprehend.

I'd rather have a gun to defend myself than a firework. Some things are a necessity. I guess I could call the bow and arrow that Natives invented destructive too, I'm sure they've killed people.

Quote:Do I think white people innately create evil things? No. Have they created evil things where other haven't? Yes, that's a fact. The Chinese had the same level of technology and they didn't do what Europeans did.

Probably because they were united under one Emperor and a more homogeneous culture, thus minimizing internal conflicts? Europe isn't China, and you're people would have done the same in a similar situation.

Quote:Yes, but that's because civilization it's self requires violence against other humans. Tribal, hunter-gather society, however, does not.

Civilization does not entail violence, it can entail violence. But Mongols were some of the most expansionism conquers in the world, and they're nomadic horsemen.

Quote:That isn't to say we never had violence. As you said, we are humans, and humans engage in violence. Here's the thing: The way of life that Europeans introduced to us is a way of life that depends on violence. It depends on violence because it requires on that resources be imported, it depends on violence because it demands expansion, and it depends on violence becuase it doesn't take no for an answer. [/size]

A market economy doesn't entail violence. If you understood basic economics, you'd realize that. Violence happens outside of that, in the government when it is granted too much power. Whites didn't introduce feudalism to America, man. Whites did introduce a way of life, however, that can entail violence, but all humans are capable of violence. There was violence on this continent before Whites arrived, and some of the tribes you now take common cause with were probably once your mortal enemies.

And western society doesn't demand expansion, or imperialism. It has had imperialism and expansion, but I'm not in favor of that. It doesn't have to be like that. The Western way of life is non-violent if it actually follows modern Western values, but sadly this hasn't always been the case.

Quote:Hunter-gather society is the opposite. It is sustainable, it uses what is near, it strives to be small scale, and it recognizes the Earth as a higher authority. It doesn't depend on violence towards other humans, and [i]it works.

And Industrialized society seems to be working fine too.

Quote:Let me say this, so maybe, hopefully, it will sink in. We. Currently. Have. The. Highest. Species. Extinction. Rate. Since. The. Death. Of. The. Dinosaurs.

Let me say this so it will sink in: I. Don't. Care. I'm not E.O. Wilson, I don't give a flying chipmunk (which I hope is extinct, if it ever existed) if some fish in Africa dies, and even so most of the extinction has been in other countries. Most of them poor and following polices the U.S. doesn't.

And it looks like most of the extinction isn't in the U.S. anyway, which means it's not you who's being forced into some evil civilization. It's someone in Africa or South America, which I don't condone:
http://reason.com/archives/2004/02/04/s ... c-policy/1
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ex ... th_America

Quote:Does that mean anything to you? Does the fact that over 90% of fish in the deep sea are now gone mean anything to you? Does the fact that there are islands of trash, miles wide, floating in the ocean mean anything to you? Species dying on a regular basis? Rivers that can no longer sustain any life? Forests with no mammals in left in them? Deserts repacking fertile land more every year?

*Doesn't see how civilization=world in chaos*

Quote:Fascism, racism, sexism, the destruction of the Earth. Corporatism, the death of the family unit, dictatorships, rule of the priveleged few.

Every coin has two sides, my friend.

Cool.

.Manicrose. Wrote:

http://reason.com/archives/2004/11/10/t ... al-warming
http://reason.com/archives/2011/03/04/g ... rming-thaw

[.Manicrose.]

Quote:You're saying that I don't deserve to get land back because it wasn't stolen from me. But according to that logic, none of the white people in America deserve any of thier land, because they didn't steal it.

Weswammy Wrote:I didn't steal any of the land I'm on.

Yeah...that's...what he was saying.

Weswammy Wrote:Let me say this so it will sink in: I. Don't. Care.

Well that's selfish of you, given that those three kids you keep going on about are going to experience even worse effects as this continues. Did you ever plan on going fishing as a bonding experience with your sons? Well bad news, you probably won't be able to because by that time the good ones will be mostly extinct, and forget about cooking them and eating them, unless you want to ingest a shitload of toxins. The future doesn't look so bright now, does it?

happy fool called Nigel Wrote:Rivers that can no longer sustain any life? Forests with no mammals in left in them? Deserts repacking fertile land more every year?

Weswammy Wrote:*Doesn't see how civilization=world in chaos*

Hidden stuff:

Let me make it clearer for you. The rivers are like that because of overfishing and pollution, and if that didn't come from civilization what did it come from?

You sound just like one of those people who want to believe that global warming is junk science because it will prevent you from owning up to your own partial responsibility for it--you didn't steal any land from the natives but you might have a (very small but still there) hand in this global warming business. And so you believe what you want to believe. Perhaps you also believe it's some conspiracy meant to wring more money out of you poor tax-payers. Oh noez it's the New World Order.

happy fool called Nigel Wrote:Fascism, racism, sexism, the destruction of the Earth. Corporatism, the death of the family unit, dictatorships, rule of the priveleged few.

Every coin has two sides, my friend.

Weswammy Wrote:Cool.

You have yet to debunk any of these side effects of Western civilization with any argument other than "Cool," making it clear that you have no argument. You just made your own fail very clear, nice job bro.

http://reason.com/archives/2011/03/04/g ... rming-thaw << I am not saying that climate change is a bigger priority than poverty or whatever that article said--I am saying that it EXISTS. You say it's junk science. The article assumed it was truth. If you're going to debate this with me then at least do me the favor of linking to articles that support your stance on the matter.

[thewake]

Quote:

Weswammy Wrote:Let me say this so it will sink in: I. Don't. Care.

Well that's selfish of you, given that those three kids you keep going on about are going to experience even worse effects as this continues. Did you ever plan on going fishing as a bonding experience with your sons? Well bad news, you probably won't be able to because by that time the good ones will be mostly extinct, and forget about cooking them and eating them, unless you want to ingest a shitload of toxins. The future doesn't look so bright now, does it?

Weswammy Wrote:*Doesn't see how civilization=world in chaos*

Hidden stuff:

Let me make it clearer for you. The rivers are like that because of overfishing and pollution, and if that didn't come from civilization what did it come from?

Watch on YouTube
Skip to 2:10 to see the part about ecology.

EDIT: Hard facts, not just a video.

Quote:

Weswammy Wrote:Cool.

You have yet to debunk any of these side effects of Western civilization with any argument other than "Cool," making it clear that you have no argument. You just made your own fail very clear, nice job bro.

I was kind of agreeing with him. Every coin does have two sides.

Quote:http://reason.com/archives/2011/03/04/gl...rming-thaw << I am not saying that climate change is a bigger priority than poverty or whatever that article said--I am saying that it EXISTS. You say it's junk science. The article assumed it was truth. If you're going to debate this with me then at least do me the favor of linking to articles that support your stance on the matter.

Sorry, I was looking for an article I couldn't find on the same site. Rather stupid of me to assume every writer for the same magazine would have the same views:
http://reason.com/archives/2004/11/10/t ... al-warming

I apologize.

[.Manicrose.]

article Wrote:The most impaired use is aquatic life harvesting with only 26 percent good for that use.

Aquatic life harvesting= what, fishing? I think that's kind of important, don't you?

article Wrote:America’s prosperity not only created pollution, but the wealth and institutions of technological innovation that enabled the country to address the problems caused by pollution.

Yeah, I'm not saying that technology only enables people to destroy nature or whatever, but pay attention to the first half of that sentence. You know, the part about it creating pollution.

The video: I don't know when we brought politics into this, so I think you meant for me to start listening at the point where he talks about the problem of pollution and what it really is. He had me up until the part about it "not being a growing problem" (that speech was from 1977 anyway) which is just delusional. Or maybe they just didn't know any better in '77, but seriously.

"The water is cleaner today." I think all those dying fish would disagree with him/you/anybody who supports this claim. As well as those huge mountains of garbage on the water--all our trash doesn't just vanish, you know. And I know that in '77 the BP Oil Spill hadn't happened yet, but surely some had--do you really think that contributes to cleaner water? As well as all the toxic sludge being poured into it.

"The air is cleaner today." I think all those factory emissions would disagree with him--even disregarding scientific measurements (if you think all the respected scientists who support them are all mistaken or part of an Illuminati conspiracy then I'm not even gonna bother arguing with that), if you've ever been out of the city and up to the mountains or wildnerness or whatever (as I have) you'll have noticed that the air is less smoggy.

He also says that "the automobile has been a source of less pollution, not more." So you're saying that some of the most respected scientists, who say that there is air pollution (more now than 100 years ago) are, again, making this up, or are mistaken? Cars emit carbon dioxide and carbon monoxide, which, if you haven't heard, is poisonous.

Quote:The American Lung Association reports that 30,000 people are killed by car emissions annually in the United States alone. Air pollution also causes numerous respiratory and cardiovascular problems and may exacerbate pre-existing conditions such as asthma. More than half of Americans live in areas that fail to meet federal air quality standards at least several days each year.

Read more: http://www.livestrong.com/article/15653 ... z1RplgghqS
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/11/1 ... 43521.html You are quickly losing any credibility you once had. Please don't tell me that the Sun revolves around the Earth next.

[Aya]

ITT: Weswammy channels Ayn Rand

[thewake]

.Manicrose. Wrote:

article Wrote:The most impaired use is aquatic life harvesting with only 26 percent good for that use.

Aquatic life harvesting= what, fishing? I think that's kind of important, don't you?

It's probably fishing, or something similar. Maybe it also includes other forms of obtaining ocean life.

Quote:

article Wrote:America’s prosperity not only created pollution, but the wealth and institutions of technological innovation that enabled the country to address the problems caused by pollution.

Yeah, I'm not saying that technology only enables people to destroy nature or whatever, but pay attention to the first half of that sentence. You know, the part about it creating pollution.

The video: I don't know when we brought politics into this, so I think you meant for me to start listening at the point where he talks about the problem of pollution and what it really is. He had me up until the part about it "not being a growing problem" (that speech was from 1977 anyway) which is just delusional. Or maybe they just didn't know any better in '77, but seriously.

"The water is cleaner today." I think all those dying fish would disagree with him/you/anybody who supports this claim. As well as those huge mountains of garbage on the water--all our trash doesn't just vanish, you know. And I know that in '77 the BP Oil Spill hadn't happened yet, but surely some had--do you really think that contributes to cleaner water? As well as all the toxic sludge being poured into it.

"The air is cleaner today." I think all those factory emissions would disagree with him--even disregarding scientific measurements (if you think all the respected scientists who support them are all mistaken or part of an Illuminati conspiracy then I'm not even gonna bother arguing with that), if you've ever been out of the city and up to the mountains or wildnerness or whatever (as I have) you'll have noticed that the air is less smoggy.

I'm never going to say a society without pollution is desirable, or even obtainable. We aren't going to have pollution free cities.

Quote:He also says that "the automobile has been a source of less pollution, not more." So you're saying that some of the most respected scientists, who say that there is air pollution (more now than 100 years ago) are, again, making this up, or are mistaken? Cars emit carbon dioxide and carbon monoxide, which, if you haven't heard, is poisonous.

It's a trade-off between air pollution and other forms of pollution that horses made. Do you know what the streets would look, and smell like, if we still used horses? What about the disease?
The automobile was a necessary improvement, and there's a trade off between one type of pollution for the other,

Quote:

Quote:The American Lung Association reports that 30,000 people are killed by car emissions annually in the United States alone. Air pollution also causes numerous respiratory and cardiovascular problems and may exacerbate pre-existing conditions such as asthma. More than half of Americans live in areas that fail to meet federal air quality standards at least several days each year.

Read more: http://www.livestrong.com/article/15653 ... z1RplgghqS
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/11/1 ... 43521.html You are quickly losing any credibility you once had. Please don't tell me that the Sun revolves around the Earth next.

Hidden stuff:

The Sun revolves around the Earth.

http://reason.com/archives/2003/04/22/clearing-the-air
http://www.nationalreview.com/planet-go ... l-schwartz

The Reason article:

Quote:Using uncontroversial data from agencies like the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) and the California Air Resources Board, Schwartz shows that air pollution news has been good across the board for decades now. Since the mid-1960s the best available measurements show that sulfur dioxide levels have fallen by more than 80 percent, carbon monoxide levels are down more than 75 percent, nitrogen dioxide levels dropped over 40 percent, ozone levels decreased nearly 50 percent, and the level of total particulates (smoke, soot, dust) is down by more than 60 percent.

In the 1980s, the EPA also started measuring smaller particles in the air, which are believed to have graver health consequences than some of those older pollution markers. Levels of those tiny terrors have declined nearly 30 percent. By almost any standard, air quality greatly improved between 1970 and 2000, even as U.S. population grew by 39 percent, energy use increased by 42 percent, total vehicle miles driven jumped by 143 percent, and gross domestic product soared by 149 percent.

And, also, maybe the asthma rates are caused by something else? http://articles.latimes.com/2011/may/03 ... g-05032011

[thewake]

Ayliana Wrote:ITT: Weswammy channels Ayn Rand

If I channeled Ayn Rand I'd say that the Indians deserved to get supplanted because they didn't have a concept of private property. That is clearly not the case.

Indians didn't deserve to have their land taken away. If history had been just they would still have it, but one can't change history.

[.Manicrose.]

Weswammy Wrote:I'm never going to say a society without pollution is desirable, or even obtainable. We aren't going to have pollution free cities.

But by linking to that video you take responsibility for what that guy said, which was a barrage of delusions concerning pollution, aka that cars etc. do very little to pollution. If you disagree with that, fine...but, y'know, don't link to it. You just changed tack, though, so I see I might have gotten through to you at least somewhat.

Weswammy Wrote:It's a trade-off between air pollution and other forms of pollution that horses made. Do you know what the streets would look, and smell like, if we still used horses? What about the disease? The automobile was a necessary improvement, and there's a trade off between one type of pollution for the other,

It is? Really? So it's a choice between modern-day cars vs. the modes of transportation around 1800 or so. What if a) we had completely clean cars that ran on renewable energy or b) didn't use horses or automobiles to get around. Of course you couldn't do option b in a big city, or any sort of modern society really, but I have no problem with being a hunter-gatherer society that doesn't depend on any mode of transport except your own feet. Again, if you want to say that that's not possible (which I agree isn't today) then FINE. But you can't go from "cars don't cause air pollution" to "air pollution is unavoidable" without subverting your previous argument.

article Wrote:As Schwartz explains, "most future pollution reductions will come from things we have already done." New technologies and regulations already put in place will continue to clear our air.

New cars already pollute far less than older cars, so as older cars are replaced by cleaner new cars, the air will continue to clear.

The other article Wrote:EPA has for years been issuing and implementing a steady stream of regulations like these–regulations that cover everything from power plants, to motor vehicles, industrials facilities, consumer products, and just about everything else you can imagine. These regulations will eliminate the vast majority of remaining air pollution emissions during the next two decades or so.

Yes, I do think technology has the power to make this air cleaner. But the first article I've quoted agrees that older cars DID pollute a hell of a lot, and that our efforts to make newer, cleaner cars are helping improve the air. It's because of these regulations that air pollution is decreasing, no? I don't see any conflict between our views on this particular matter, at least not anymore. A couple of posts ago it seemed to me that you were saying that, and I quote from that video, "The automobile has been a source of less pollution, not more," or that you were basically saying that this new technology hasn't caused any harmful effects. But given that you have now switched your stance to "newer, cleaner cars are helping reduce the pollution caused by the older cars which DID pollute a lot," I don't see why we're still arguing on this matter...

[happy fool called Nigel]

Quote:I. Don't. Care.

I was about to debate you, but I don't think I need to anymore. All I can say is good luck to your grand kids.

[happy fool called Nigel]

happy fool called Nigel Wrote:

Quote:I. Don't. Care.

I was about to debate you, but I don't think I need to anymore. All I can say is good luck to your grand kids.

P.S. .Manicrose.- thank you.

[thewake]

.Manicrose. Wrote:I don't see why we're still arguing on this matter...

To be honest, at first I didn't feel like arguing logically, but if I try I can be really good at the art of capitalist apologetics.

Not that I'd want to apologize.

[.Manicrose.]

happy fool called Nigel Wrote:P.S. .Manicrose.- thank you.

No problem, I love pwning self-righteous capitalists.

[thewake]

.Manicrose. Wrote:

happy fool called Nigel Wrote:P.S. .Manicrose.- thank you.

No problem, I love pwning self-righteous capitalists.

I fail to see how I was pwn'd.
I just take umbrage at the environmental doomsday theories, or any doomsday theories really, which have repeatedly been shown to be overblown or, at times, demonstrably false.

1970s population boom hysteria very much parallels the hysteria people have had for global warming in recent years.