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I wasn't good enough at encouraging people to be kinder, and removing people who refuse to be kind. Encouraging people is hard, and removing people creates conflict, and I hate conflict... so that's why I wasn't better at it.

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why theCancer should STFU about wasted potential
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the Analogist Offline
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Post: #1
why theCancer should STFU about wasted potential

so after once again jumping down theCancer's throat, he's been a real good sport about it, I realized something about myself.

So, telling somebody about how they are a special snowflake is garbage, especially in the context of "dont waste your potential". I realized this is still making problems for me. when my "specialness" goes overlooked in the workplace or when my opinion is not asked for even, i am angry about the injustice.

the actual problem, school wasted my potential by taking my time, but deeper than that,

comparisons to people who have more than you do nothing good for your spiritual well-being. so to set some arbitrary benchmark of "met-potential" and constantly measure yourself against it, is a good way of being forever disappointed and annoyed with your life.

more properly your specialness, which we all have which is why it is kind of a bullshit idea to begin with, needs to materialize in some way. your specialness means dick to anybody looking for something in return. "show me what you've done so far" is the ACTUAL purpose of a resume, and the more common your life looks the less attention it will merit.

ive said before the biggest secret to success is that its handed to you. this is true in spite of my advice if the resume idea is properly understood. to the extent that your income is from services rendered to somebody else, THEY have to choose you, and even if your a freelancer you cant create customers even if you can invent products.

everybody is a snowflake, so nobody is "special". Everybody has missed potential.

a better lesson to learn is dont waste your potential on some shit other people think is important for you, you will never be as good at something you DONT want to do as something you do.

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Excellence is to be mindful of all these things in Living.
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(This post was last modified: 05-31-2017 08:11 AM by the Analogist.)
05-31-2017 08:09 AM
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Post: #2
RE: why theCancer should STFU about wasted potential

When was I talking about "wasted potential"?

And are you mad at me?

I know you're smart so it's probably me but I'm not quite getting where you're coming from.

If you want to be a different fish, you've got to jump out of the school.


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(This post was last modified: 05-31-2017 08:38 AM by TheCancer.)
05-31-2017 08:37 AM
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RE: why theCancer should STFU about wasted potential

it was over 3 years ago, necroed thread, the title was "IQ tests a big deal?" in the school talk forum

btw, you are a champion of not getting offended.

anyway, this was a continuation of why I yelled at you there. not sure if you saw the movie Goodwill Hunting. you should btw.

anyway, doing inventory on myself i realized that a lot of my pain and frustration with my life comes from believing myself to be special/superior. I was told I would be famous one day. problem was that day never came. nothing that was to get me famous was worked on. I drifted in school, now I drift at work and observe mostly favoritism in promotion, fake promotion (grooming somebody for a position) and that the great secret of success that it is handed to you. i never got my big break, i never got my chance for a big break. now i am a mediocre among mediocres.

problem is everybody has wasted potential if you measure with a big enough stick. its an unhealthy idea to get addicted to because it has you trying to find what part of the more successful people you are missing, and that is really the wrong idea.

my point is, let me do with my potential what i want. it is mine to "waste", but I didnt even get a chance to waste it. instead i fulfillled all expectations and was left without any accomplishments meaningful enough to justify anything other than continued mediocrity. did i commit an injustice towards my potential? i dont think so, but an injustice was commited.

being told what potential i had helped blind me to the potential everyone else has too, and if they have it too why does it matter that I do? the subtle pride and often arrogance that comes with intelligence does not produce any good, only a sad disappointed life unless you are lucky enough to die in probably blameful ignorance.

the correct thing is, you have a LIFE, dont waste it, and dont let me waste it for you either.

just today I heard of a man who declined some food because he was fasting in accord with his teachers habits. the man was told "you should not conform to other people because they are merely human like you". the man was then prepared to break his fast but was also told, "I too am a man, so you shouldnt conform to me either"

the real success in my religion is to make it to eternal paradise by the mercy of Allah. every human being is capable of this. so i say, to hell with people's "potential". nobody is "special" in that way. such is the suggestion of the devil

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Wisdom is to follow only the Opinion which makes the best use of evidence.
Excellence is to be mindful of all these things in Living.
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(This post was last modified: 05-31-2017 12:12 PM by the Analogist.)
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RE: why theCancer should STFU about wasted potential

I don't remember the IQ test thread. I do consider IQ to be a legitimate indicator of aptitude. To some that may be offensive. The book, The Bell Curve, still generates controversy. I think his book has successfully stood up to a lot of criticism.

I agree with what I think you're saying. It's not about wasting potential; it's about wasting life. If you have potential it's up to you what you do or don't do with it. I'm sorry if I angered you in that IQ thread that I don't remember. Here's something to think about: Don't waste your life concerning yourself with what others think of your potential. Focus on happiness.

If you want to be a different fish, you've got to jump out of the school.


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RE: why theCancer should STFU about wasted potential

then in steps you oh teacher with a vague injuction to "motivate" and "boost morale". do you unequally share the knowledge that whoever you are talking to has potential? or are there some you tell about how they should focus on a career in yardwork?

what is the point of telling somebody that have a special amount of potential, an amount that is apparently remarkable enough to be worthy of being spoken about?

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(This post was last modified: 06-01-2017 12:29 AM by the Analogist.)
06-01-2017 12:28 AM
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RE: why theCancer should STFU about wasted potential

Usually, I leave it alone.

Now, if I know that a kid has a high IQ but reads or does math poorly I will have a chat with her or him. I never phrase anything like there's anything wrong with choosing the path of a working class profession. I understand that a lot of people with basic trades or in the service industry are very smart. However, if the student has the natural aptitude to process information very quickly I might remind them there's a materialistic value in that. And if they think they may want the things that wealthy people have they may want to develop that aptitude. Sometimes to give the student perspective I'll point out that they have a good deal more raw intelligence than I do. A lot of them understand that intuitively. I'm not judgmental about it. Or I try not to be. It's a matter of avoiding lost futures. Maybe there's a trade off, something harmful in the student hearing this. I try to stick to the truth and to be straightforward and to make it clear that I'm just one voice.

No, I don't tell them they should rake leaves. I do say things like there's no shame in earning an honest living however you can.

The only time I mention aptitude as a limitation is when I have a student who starts getting involved in crime. They tend to romanticize criminal activity or "thug life". If a student isn't very bright I will tell him directly that I don't think they're smart enough to be a successful criminal and point out that even having a low paying job and cheap apartment with AC and internet and being free to enjoy sex with a girlfriend (or whatever they want) is preferable to prison.

If you want to be a different fish, you've got to jump out of the school.


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RE: why theCancer should STFU about wasted potential

you know really its just me realizing that the all encapsulating bubble I lived in, not one or even a group of teachers could have even made a difference. the disrespect i received at home led me and my ideas to fester alone. ONLY when i finally had a good friend to argue with me did my brain begin to come together.

its like, when all my free time is constantly broken by fulfilling commitments with little other sense of purpose, i take the nice guy i know you're trying to be, the honesty your trying to have, its all so irrelevent to the big picture for the kids. IF you are stuck then you gotta make it the best you can, but your absolute best simply cannot liberate a crushed spirit badly in need of healing and regrowth which takes time you cant give it

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(This post was last modified: 06-02-2017 02:29 PM by the Analogist.)
06-02-2017 01:42 PM
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RE: why theCancer should STFU about wasted potential

I've taken generally to writing with more concision and precision. I refer to my ideas in an elliptical way since I don't always have time for a full thesis, and nobody would read it if i did that all the time.

Anyway, doubting how much of my previous post you really caught, i'm going to explain [most of] the missing pieces as they might have fit into my context

==================

Quote:"doing inventory on myself i realized that a lot of my pain and frustration with my life comes from believing myself to be special/superior."

This is a bad side effect of being told that on some level you are differently capable. People easily internalize stuff like this. It is not good food for the soul. You will always see in your life less capable people promoted above you, having more esteem and privilege. when your context begins with your genius the only justice is for you to have all of those the things you want, that you deserve. its like spoiling a kid.

Quote:"I was told I would be famous one day. problem was that day never came. nothing that was to get me famous was worked on. I drifted in school, now I drift at work and observe mostly favoritism in promotion, fake promotion (grooming somebody for a position) and that the great secret of success that it is handed to you. i never got my big break, i never got my chance for a big break. now i am a mediocre among mediocres."

This is just a further description of the spiritual agony this internalization has caused me. Getting rid of an idea so implanted in your heart is not easy.

Quote:"problem is everybody has wasted potential if you measure with a big enough stick. its an unhealthy idea to get addicted to because it has you trying to find what part of the more successful people you are missing, and that is really the wrong idea."

when people think to highly of themselves, the stick they use to measure themself will always be bigger than they are. this is not a good thing even though some people believe it motivates (as if motivation is in itself a good thing. sometimes intent is corrupt and you really wish those guys weren't so motivated). materially, and i include power here, people need to learn to be happy with what they have and to learn that the results of their efforts are not in their hands. the greatest secret of success IS that it is handed to you. People who DON'T discover that are those who say "hard work got me where I am" which also means "if you didn't get anywhere its because you didn't work hard enough". This is a MAJOR fallacy of spirit.

in Islam, well before Pharoah was destroyed, Allah cause the earth to swallow up Qarun, a supremely wealthy man who attributed his success to his own intelligence. the followers of Moses witnessed his destruction and revelation came to Moses after the event. Allah told Moses that if Qarun had once invoked Allah to spare him instead of asking Moses then Allah would definitely have spared the life of Qarun. Such is the way of materialistic people. Even when witnessing a kind of miracle they are still so stuck to the apparent worldly power of the Prophet, prophethood itself being a status given by Allah.

Quote:"my point is, let me do with my potential what i want. it is mine to "waste", but I didnt even get a chance to waste it. instead i fulfillled all expectations and was left without any accomplishments meaningful enough to justify anything other than continued mediocrity. did i commit an injustice towards my potential? i dont think so, but an injustice was commited."

regardless of how nice i was made to feel, or how motivated i might have become to work on my school work, I was still very much stuck in the box or bubble of school, and the intellectually starved home life with my parents. A nice teacher COULD NOT have made a difference with me.

Quote:"being told what potential i had helped blind me to the potential everyone else has too, and if they have it too why does it matter that I do?"

believing you deserve something carries a dark side. it means that somebody else does not deserve it. if you pay enough attention to what has become of the republican party you will see anger and frustration expressed about the fact that the rich are taxed and the poor are helped. where does this ethic come from? bad people should be put in their place and good people should be left as free as possible. Your smart guy who doesn't care should try to attain privilege since he can, and the dumb criminal should aim for better than jail. I know that is a straw-man, but consider how what you said sounds in light of that straw man. Its not like the poorly developed minds of school kids can easily differentiate between what you mean and how i misread it.

Quote:"the subtle pride and often arrogance that comes with intelligence does not produce any good, only a sad disappointed life unless you are lucky enough to die in probably blameful ignorance."

Trump is a great example of a supremely stupid rich asshole who you could never explain a single thing to. poor people act like this too. it is an ethic born of arrogance, and its seed is planted by dishonesty about one's nature. nobody is above the law, but your criminal example I think failed to recognize that just as your criminal student wants to act outside of the law, the in-class disobedience of a smart kid is also treated unequally. other disobedient non-smart kids frequently get in more trouble but your smart kid is taken off to the side and told "I know you are better than this". I AM NOT SAYING YOU DO THIS, but this kind of rationally patterned perpetual injustice is all around your students, even if you violate it. I would be tempted to suggest that the smart lazy kid be put in his place and the criminal told about how he has much greater potential, but both of those are lies. Actually I would tell the criminal that everybody makes mistakes but some mistakes are harder to come back from. its better to be the guy who learns the easy way than learns the hard way. etc. your lazy student would get the same treatment as the criminal in that class serves to identify interests and offer objectives in the course of pursuing those interests (Like i detailed in the Helping theCancer thread). inside of BOTH kids is a better them, you don't know who will exceed the other and you can't even guess that. Don't be like other materialistic and superficial people who overly trust their own assessments of other people.

Quote:"the correct thing is, you have a LIFE, dont waste it, and dont let me waste it for you either."

you guidance, steering, controlling, all have fine lines between each other. people like us who are inclined to feel we have so much to give need to just suck it up and accept that we simply AREN'T the best mentors for some people.

Quote:"just today I heard of a man who declined some food because he was fasting in accord with his teachers habits. the man was told "you should not conform to other people because they are merely human like you". the man was then prepared to break his fast but was also told, "I too am a man, so you shouldnt conform to me either""

the student in this example is now facing the fact that HE has to decide what is best based on what HE knows. THAT is manhood.

Quote:"the real success in my religion is to make it to eternal paradise by the mercy of Allah. every human being is capable of this. so i say, to hell with people's "potential". nobody is "special" in that way. such is the suggestion of the devil"

I doubt you've spent much time trying to understand my three category system, but the fact as i assert it is that the 1st quality of honesty is the moral faculty to recognize the truth even if it is against you. wisdom is the 2nd quality to recognize the stronger opinion even if it is not yours. excellence, the 3rd, is simply to act with a state of mindfulness. everybody is capable of these qualities and these are what define a well rounded student in anything. nobody is differently capable of them. the giving-a-shit factor, combined with the limits of the environment, will determine what knowledge and skills are attained by people. only the materialistic person will look at the knowledge and skills of a person and suggest that is indicates something of the innate nature of the person. this is not what human beings are.

nothing is really that hard, but we convince ourselves the opposite of this all the time. school helps to make that a reality. different people, different potential, different intelligence, oh look America's class system makes perfect sense to me and is justifiable...

I leave on that ellipses.

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06-02-2017 02:45 PM
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Post: #9
RE: why theCancer should STFU about wasted potential

school very much produces the observer effect. that, by labeling a person as bright or dumb you may inspire a person to do bright or dumb things. of course they may rebel against their labels too because teenagers.

point is, for any level of skill measured, you can only fabricate a backstory. until you know for certain how a person attained their competence anything you say is a total guess.

one of the best Gatto arguments is utterly true, that if a person learns to read at 5, and another at 9, by the time they are both 13 you have no idea who learned first. it could easily be the 5 year old never got into it but the 9 year old did. if you never ASK you'll never really know. school most certainly would label and treat both of those students differently

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(This post was last modified: 06-02-2017 06:41 PM by the Analogist.)
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Post: #10
why theCancer should STFU about wasted potential

Thanks A

That's a lot to digest.

Quote:your lazy student would get the same treatment as the criminal

There's lots that you wrote I could decide to tackle but let's look here. Students tend to expect fairness. Many teachers consider it a cornerstone of a healthy classroom environment. I openly tell my students I don't have any interest in being fair. Now I mean that differently than being just. I think not being fair allows me to be more just. I take into account their personality, aptitude, circumstances, how they react to me and so on. Students ask why I treat them differently and I say because you are different. Take the case of our "criminal". I knew he really liked me because he was always dropping into my class even when he was supposed to be in another class. Plus, he'd walk right up and start talking to me, not the other kids. So when I say to him, "Look man. You're not smart enough to be a successful criminal." That's real talk. These kids hear the same thing over and over. It cannot sound formulaic. Why would I question his intelligence like that? Because he's serious about going into crime. I'm not making anything up. To be a successful criminal you need to be 4 chess moves ahead of the game. He's two behind! And you have to be pretty smart to only be two moves behind. He's headed for prison. Already spent time locked up. So I'm going for the jugular with that one. I see his limitations. I think deep inside he knows I'm right. The generic message may be to shoot higher than prison but I'm pretty sure there's something unique in the way I'm saying it. Not you're not tough enough. Not you're better than that. But instead some hard hitting brutal truth: You're not smart enough.

I'm sorry for just focusing on one small point when you posted so much.

Like I said, it's a lot to digest. I appreciate it.

If you want to be a different fish, you've got to jump out of the school.


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06-02-2017 10:03 PM
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Post: #11
RE: why theCancer should STFU about wasted potential

when digesting, dont lose the forest for the trees.

but speaking of that tree, he could be smart enough if you put him with a good mentor and helped him learn. connect him with some established mafia type guy. he could be shown the ropes and learn the do's and don'ts of organized crime.

organized criminals are not "smart" per se, they just know by habit and training what the do's and don'ts are. smartness has nothing to do with it. its a skill you can develop with practice.

any test can be studied for, habits can be acquired, facts can be memorized. smartness is mostly a bullshit concept used to give or take away credit, or cred as they say. its a label like other labels.

Purity is to Believe only that which deserves it.
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Excellence is to be mindful of all these things in Living.
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(This post was last modified: 06-03-2017 07:29 AM by the Analogist.)
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RE: why theCancer should STFU about wasted potential

(06-03-2017 07:28 AM)the Analogist Wrote:  when digesting, dont lose the forest for the trees.

but speaking of that tree, he could be smart enough if you put him with a good mentor and helped him learn. connect him with some established mafia type guy. he could be shown the ropes and learn the do's and don'ts of organized crime.

organized criminals are not "smart" per se, they just know by habit and training what the do's and don'ts are. smartness has nothing to do with it. its a skill you can develop with practice.

any test can be studied for, habits can be acquired, facts can be memorized. smartness is mostly a bullshit concept used to give or take away credit, or cred as they say. its a label like other labels.

Crime falls outside that paradigm because your nemesis isn't just the law it's also other criminals who are going to be out to exploit you by outsmarting you. You have to have a very rare intuitive intelligence to succeed at it. A person with less than very exceptional intelligence will be in and out of prison, exploited by other criminals, and live a life of constant suspicion and paranoia. Mid level gangsters or mobsters live horribly stressful lives with the most draconian bosses imaginable and no access to reprieve.

If you want to be a different fish, you've got to jump out of the school.


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Post: #13
RE: why theCancer should STFU about wasted potential

surely you understood my rebuttal right?

dont chase after red herrings

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RE: why theCancer should STFU about wasted potential

It's not a red herring to a teacher who has seen more students go to prison than college.

If you want to be a different fish, you've got to jump out of the school.


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06-03-2017 02:16 PM
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Post: #15
RE: why theCancer should STFU about wasted potential

success is handed to you. the "smart" ones dont ascend by merit AS MUCH AS by selection. this is a general rule. the ethic of the culture defines who is selected. in crime it is frequently the most ruthless. some ascend to their level of incompetence, the rest who cut enough throats stand making those decisions. these are all general truisms of heirarchies. luck frequently plays a big role too along with selection.

what I am saying is this one particular example is not the heart of my thesis. it is part of a much broader thesis. particular examples may vary in particular interesting ways, but the means by which skills are acquired do not change, nor does their acquisition say anything in particular about the person who did the acquiring. none of your observations can be made acontextual without a cause and effect theory whose explanatory power goes far beyond the particular example from which it was derived. your caricature of "the smart ones" is ill explained by the guess "they just had to be smarter". is that REALLY how things work? or are there factors external to the individual offering opportunities others are not capable of giving themselves? i cannot choose who my parents are is the basic fatalistic precept i give eminence to here because tracing all things in time back to their origins you find the sudden appearance of a human in a world which they did not choose. how can you, in a satisfying way, dismiss all of that and give such credit to the individual in spite of their utter dependence on the outside world to offer them the chances to take advatage of?

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Post: #16
RE: why theCancer should STFU about wasted potential

Are you familiar with Charles Murray?

If you want to be a different fish, you've got to jump out of the school.


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Post: #17
RE: why theCancer should STFU about wasted potential

I have explained my views in "the Analogists musings on education" found in the Alternative learning forum. why dont you actually read them and respond to me. I will continue reading and responding to you, but appeals to yours and other's authority will not do. I've outlined my views on authority there too

Purity is to Believe only that which deserves it.
Wisdom is to follow only the Opinion which makes the best use of evidence.
Excellence is to be mindful of all these things in Living.
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06-04-2017 06:18 AM
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TheCancer Offline
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Post: #18
RE: why theCancer should STFU about wasted potential

I'm not an authority.

If you want to be a different fish, you've got to jump out of the school.


Captain Beefheart
06-04-2017 06:50 AM
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