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Please do not make a mirror copy of the forums in their current state - things will still change, and some people have requested to be able to edit or delete some of their personal info.

To everyone who joined these forums at some point, and got discouraged by the negativity and left after a while (or even got literally scared off): I'm sorry.

I wasn't good enough at encouraging people to be kinder, and removing people who refuse to be kind. Encouraging people is hard, and removing people creates conflict, and I hate conflict... so that's why I wasn't better at it.

I was a very, very sensitive teen. The atmosphere of this forum as it is now, if it had existed in 1996, would probably have upset me far more than it would have helped.

I can handle quite a lot of negativity and even abuse now, but that isn't the point. I want to help people. I want to help the people who need it the most, and I want to help people like the 1996 version of me.

I'm still figuring out the best way to do that, but as it is now, these forums are doing more harm than good, and I can't keep running them.

Thank you to the few people who have tried to understand my point of view so far. I really, really appreciate you guys. You are beautiful people.

Everyone else: If after everything I've said so far, you still don't understand my motivations, I think it's unlikely that you will. We're just too different. Maybe someday in the future it might make sense, but until then, there's no point in arguing about it. I don't have the time or the energy for arguing anymore. I will focus my time and energy on people who support me, and those who need help.


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the Analogist's Carl Jung Reading Log
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the Analogist's Carl Jung Reading Log

I believe the process of reading, at least for me, to be a springboard for free association and tangential thinking. For me, its hard for me to read much because I get distracted. I don't know how universal this is, but I feel like effective reading, meaningful reading, is where you get a lot out of it. Your concepts and ideas about life are given depth by analogy.

Here then, are some quote from some wikipedia articles I read on Carl Jung and his ideas.


I'm assuming many of you can duplicate this experience. I wanted to share a fresh experience of reading something, my intention behind it, the effect of it.

I think the actual purpose/benefit of reading is obscured by teachers who are excessively enthusiastic about reading. Just like how even a high class desert can be scarfed down without savor, so too could a reading of Crime and Punishment be less beneficial than Calvin and Hobbes.

When I read I believe it to be extremely effective because I get distracted constantly and sometimes have to stop so I can pace and process. Some people just race through a book and I suspect get a lot less out of it, but it depends on both book and person. I find harry potter to be light easy reading with very little depth, but somebody else might find a lot more meaning than me.

The problem is that free association is never taught, nor is it encouraged, let alone understood.

All of you should be familiar with Carl Jung as his is the name you read on the "Jung/Briggs-Meyers Test". While reading about Jung I found his conclusions fascinating since they came extremely close to the theology of Islam. I wanted to detail a list of quotes directly from wikipedia and my responses to them to demonstrate to the curious how reading works for those like me who are easily distracted, which again, I think could be a good thing depending on what it is that distracts.

Here are the quotes that set my thoughts ablaze. These thoughts I think are fairly representative of me, so don't think of my Islamic associations as preaching, its just a major part of my thinking.

This is intended as a case study on the practice of reading.

Quote:In 1895 Jung studied medicine at the University of Basel.

He was 20 when he started to study medicine.

Quote:In 1900 Jung began working at the Burghölzli psychiatric hospital in Zürich with Eugen Bleuler. Bleuler was already in communication with the Austrian neurologist Sigmund Freud. Jung's dissertation, published in 1903, was titled On the Psychology and Pathology of So-Called Occult Phenomena. In 1906 he published Studies in Word Association, and later sent a copy of this book to Freud.

He actually bothered to get in touch with a living person sharing his interests.

Quote:Eventually a close friendship and a strong professional association developed between the elder Freud and Jung, which left a sizeable trove of correspondence. For six years they cooperated in their work.[14] In 1912, however, Jung published Wandlungen und Symbole der Libido (known in English as Psychology of the Unconscious), which made manifest the developing theoretical divergence between the two. Consequently, their personal and professional relationship fractured—each stating that the other was unable to admit he could possibly be wrong. [...]

I really need to share the details of my friendship with a guy named Matt Knicl. Reading about Jung and Freud reminds me of this friendship.

Quote:Jung was thirty when he sent his Studies in Word Association to Sigmund Freud in Vienna in 1906. The two men met for the first time the following year and Jung recalled the discussion between himself and Freud as interminable. He recalled that they talked almost unceasingly for thirteen hours. Six months later, the then 50-year-old Freud sent a collection of his latest published essays to Jung in Zurich. This marked the beginning of an intense correspondence and collaboration that lasted six years and ended in May 1913.

The shaykh/murid relationship in Sufism as reminiscent of my friendship with Matt Knicl. The student in a sense is seeking to please or impress the teacher out of a genuine respect and desire to be enlightened. The teacher includes with sincerity the student in their own musings and understanding in the hopes that they be beneficial to the student. In reality both parties are peers, but seniority in various regards leads to an apparent and real difference necessitating the etiquette followed. It is an extremely productive relationship if hearts are in the right place since the student has a great opportunity to express and therefore refine their ideas and themselves. Eventually the student attains the intellectual autonomy to decide that they can function without the teacher, but this is where the actual shaykh/murid parallel ends since those etiquettes are based on actual inherited authority, not exactly earned authority. "Philosophy" belongs to everyone and no-one, but not everybody makes proper use of it. one goal of its pursuit is to figure out, by using it properly yourself, who does not use it properly.

Quote:Jung de-emphasized the importance of sexual development and focused on the collective unconscious: the part of unconscious that contains memories and ideas that Jung believed were inherited from ancestors. While he did think that libido was an important source for personal growth, unlike Freud, Jung did not believe that libido alone was responsible for the formation of the core personality. Jung believed his personal development was influenced by key factors he felt were unrelated to sexuality.

Freud was kinda weird and modern psychology came to diverge from his thinking. Jung was smart enough to figure this out in the early days of psychology.

Quote:Another primary disagreement with Freud stemmed from their differing concepts of the unconscious. Jung saw Freud's theory of the unconscious as incomplete and unnecessarily negative. According to Jung, Freud conceived the unconscious solely as a repository of repressed emotions and desires. Jung agreed with Freud's model of the unconscious, what Jung called the "personal unconscious", but he also proposed the existence of a second, deeper form of the unconscious underlying the personal one. This was the collective unconscious, where the archetypes themselves resided [...]

Human nature as viewed by one with a belief in the divine, vs. the modernistic and materialistic one, also views human nature in a more optimistic way. I don't really respect Freud except that he was important to the development of the discipline, which as a whole I actually kind of hate. Psychologist just seem too eager to classify every aspect of the human experience to the point of renendering much of it trivial.

Quote:Though he was a practicing clinician and considered himself to be a scientist, much of his life's work was spent exploring tangential areas such as Eastern and Western philosophy, alchemy, astrology, and sociology, as well as literature and the arts. Jung's interest in philosophy and the occult led many to view him as a mystic, although his ambition was to be seen as a man of science.

Pretty much everybody who make significant contributions to various disciplines, typically makes contributiong to a lot of disciplines. That there is a common set of rules unifying the world which you gradually come to appreciate on an analogical level (which is why I call myself the Analogist). He is apparently an INFJ along with me, and so they say was true of Thomas Jefferson. I enjoy movies, political philosophy, Islamic jurisprudence, and of course educational philosophy. Ultimately my time spent with reading and Studio Ghibli is reflecting on all of it.

Quote:The introvert is likened with Apollo, who shines light on understanding. The introvert is focused on the internal world of reflection, dreaming and vision. Thoughtful and insightful, the introvert can sometimes be uninterested in joining the activities of others.

The extravert is associated with Dionysus, interested in joining the activities of the world. The extravert is focused on the outside world of objects, sensory perception and action. Energetic and lively, the extrovert may lose their sense of self in the intoxication of Dionysian pursuits

This really makes it sound like my own preference, which is how the quality of being an introvert is obtained, is not just incidental, but stems from what really sounds like my own ethics. That everything is important and must be understood is something superficial people find irritating. talking about what the movie suggests or what various choices mean irritates people who are just thinking things like "oh, well that was fun what next?" I kinda have a theory that if I met an ESTP I would quickly hate them as we would do nothing alike and probably think totally different. I kind of suspect I've met these people and that they are the super successful corporate types me and my chums totally hate but have no choice but to work for. (ESTP has been titled "the Entrepreneur") Absolutely no common ground on anything, I despise so many of the people I've had to work for who are just totally decided upon every single thing they resolve on, before they say it. I would like to join the activities of the outside world, but when I do I am like the punished introverts from Chiron's thread "Intolerance to Introversion" where the energy of the room just doesn't quite work for me and unless I find another person who thinks deeply I have no company. So blend into the background I do since playing the party is what seems to be the means of access to privilege in the heirarchy of modern society, which now in retrospect I am glad I never joined, since I probably would not have gained the perspective I now enjoy.

Quote:[...] Introverts interpret the world subjectively, whereas extraverts interpret the world objectively.

"facts" are typically just opinions stated in an authoritarian manner. This "objective" view of the world is highly reminiscent of the closed minded attitudes of those a-holes I would love to actually speak with, except that they are their made-up-minds are too busy "objectively" knowing how things are.

Quote:Individuation is a process of transformation whereby the personal and collective unconscious is brought into consciousness (by means of dreams, active imagination or free association to take some examples) to be assimilated into the whole personality. It is a completely natural process necessary for the integration of the psyche to take place.

This reminds me of those conversations I had with Matt Knicl, the time spent learning to the stories of the Prophets from shaykh Amin, watching Avatar: the Last Airbender... None of these personal adventures into reality/fiction were ever a part of my academic career, they never mattered for my "professional" life, but it shouldn't really have to, except to say that its probably true for everybody else which is why I, a developed person, seem to be such an abberration. We live quite unnaturally, our behaviors, our thoughts, so something honest and natural such as my personality are seen from a bizarre and corrupt context where, although the "best" institutions of our society are sites of horrendous cruelty, I am somehow "weird"...

Quote:Besides achieving physical and mental health, people who have advanced towards individuation tend to be harmonious, mature and responsible. They embody humane values such as freedom and justice and have a good understanding about the workings of human nature and the universe.

It took me awhile to get where I am. It seems that many have not. Those who have not, are either oblivious to the fruits of their immaturity, or indifferent. but they also just don't have much context for justice since its filtered by their subjective understanding of human relations.

Quote:In his psychological theory – which is not necessarily linked to a particular theory of social structure – the persona appears as a consciously created personality or identity fashioned out of part of the collective psyche through socialization, acculturation and experience. Jung applied the term persona, explicitly because, in Latin, it means both personality and the masks worn by Roman actors of the classical period, expressive of the individual roles played.

The persona, he argues, is a mask for the "collective psyche", a mask that 'pretends' individuality, so that both self and others believe in that identity, even if it is really no more than a well-played role through which the collective psyche is expressed. Jung regarded the "persona-mask" as a complicated system which mediates between individual consciousness and the social community: it is "a compromise between the individual and society as to what a man should appear to be". But he also makes it quite explicit that it is, in substance, a character mask in the classical sense known to theatre, with its double function: both intended to make a certain impression to others, and to hide (part of) the true nature of the individual. The therapist then aims to assist the individuation process through which the client (re)gains his "own self" – by liberating the self, both from the deceptive cover of the persona, and from the power of unconscious impulses.

This sounds so much like Carrol Quigley's ideas of internalized controls vs. externalized controls. Regarding society at large, Quigley argues that when people have morality, ethics, self-restraint of various sorts, that means that the people of that community control themselves, and so that society is a stable society, probably because it is full of mature people. Externalized controls mean that somebody through most likely a threat of violence, or out of desperation, must act according to the way of the outside world, then he is not in control of his own self, and soceity will be unhealthy and unstable.

Consider that yuppies frequently have to "go where the money is", they cannot ultimately choose the communities they live in, because they have typically subjected themselves to conventional means of access to the existing corporate structure. They learn to pretend and ultimately to become "professional" imbibing all of the qualities pertaining thereto, except that not everybody makes that choice consciously, out of an embrace for a declining economy with a few regions of moderate prosperity. Unhappy migrants leaving family and community connections to set up shop in apartments, deal with crass landlords, and the constant fear of losing their jobs are not a people disciplined and self-controlling except on an incidental basis.

Quote:Jung's theory has become enormously influential in management theory; not just because managers and executives have to create an appropriate "management persona" (a corporate mask) and a persuasive identity, but also because they have to evaluate what sort of people the workers are, in order to manage them (for example, using personality tests and peer reviews).

There sometimes feels something disingenuous about the way managers behave. Working at Walmart I really wonder just what exactly I would hear different were I to meet any of these managers in another setting.

Quote:Jung's work on himself and his patients convinced him that life has a spiritual purpose beyond material goals. Our main task, he believed, is to discover and fulfill our deep innate potential. Based on his study of Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism, Gnosticism, Taoism, and other traditions, Jung believed that this journey of transformation, which he called individuation, is at the mystical heart of all religions. It is a journey to meet the self and at the same time to meet the Divine.

The idea of meeting the self and the Divine at the same time is an idea easily extracted from the Islamic tradition. In a talk I found on YouTube of a teacher of mine, he mentioned something about woe unto those who Allah has made forget themselves. Also the idea that Allah is closer to you than your own jugular vein. Honesty is the first quality of a believer for he knows in his heart who is god is and recognized that intuition. In other regards people awash in the material world are seen as absorbed in it, as if their innate personality is made obscure.

Quote:Jung recommended spirituality as a cure for alcoholism and he is considered to have had an indirect role in establishing Alcoholics Anonymous.[53] Jung once treated an American patient (Rowland Hazard III), suffering from chronic alcoholism. After working with the patient for some time and achieving no significant progress, Jung told the man that his alcoholic condition was near to hopeless, save only the possibility of a spiritual experience. Jung noted that occasionally such experiences had been known to reform alcoholics where all else had failed.

I feel like this is where Jung goes a bit off. the video "How to Feel Like a Man" from the Art of Manliness says that 9 times out of 10 you wont get some magical enlightenment all at once and the path becomes easy. I think something like a deep epiphany is what Jung has in mind, but in my own experience, following the advice of Art of Manliness (Brett McKay) spirituality is the result of your actions on you. Changing bad habits into good ones even if you don't feel like it means that you must ultimately ignore your emotions, perhaps indefinitely, and elevate your logic and reason and make them the jockey on the horse of you. This is a brief summary of stoicism, but it seems to be true even in the Islamic context where the idea of peaceful submission (part of the meaning of "Islam") suggests that you attain peace by simply surrendering and following the order of Allah and His Messenger (saws). Of course, I never read anything of Jung being familiar with Islam or Sufism, but it seems like this contradiction of concepts, spiritual experience viz a vi individuation could have been sorted if he understood the Naqshbandi Sufi Order, even in passing. The word Naqasha itself is quite deep.

Quote:He saw that the state was treated as "a quasi-animate personality from whom everything is expected" but that this personality was "only camouflage for those individuals who know how to manipulate it"

Boy does that sound like AT&T. So, we're free market capitalist are we here in America, OK. So tell me where Verizon Wireless came from?

Answer: after tax payer funded military spending build up a large telecom network it was, for all intents and purposes, just given to a private company to make money off it. naturally they sat on their asses, made virtually no improvements to service, and just enjoyed being a monopoly. Then one day the FCC showed up and said "hey AT&T, you are too damn big. stop it" and so Verizon Wireless was born. a triumph of free market capitalism right?

Quote:According to Jung, the human collective unconscious is populated by instincts and by archetypes: universal symbols such as the Great Mother, the Wise Old Man, the Shadow, the Tower, Water, the Tree of Life, and many more.

Intuition and instinct I think are wanting distinction, if there is any to be made. I can say for sure that my kids had their different personalities before they were born, and that certainly they weren't blank slates awaiting training on all things human.

Quote:Critics of the collective unconscious concept have called it unscientific and fatalistic, or otherwise very difficult to test scientifically (due to the mythical aspect of the collective unconscious) for those faith-based scientists.[2] Proponents suggest that it is borne out by findings of psychology, neuroscience, and anthropology.

I am reminded of a quote from Good Will Hunting when he gets pissed at the math professor for having to watch him "fumble around a fuck it up". overly academic types have a really hard time discussing deep concepts they can't easily turn into objective facts and therefore can't dismiss them either without being blatantly disingenuous. Its fun watching how some deep spiritual idea, like Noam Chomsky's proposed "initial state", meaning the innate blueprint in the human mind that gives us the capacity for language. Some of these really interesting ideas shine a big spotlight on just how dumb and averse to open-mindedness many academic types actually are.

Quote:The name "collective unconscious" first appeared in Jung's 1916 essay, "The Structure of the Unconscious". This essay distinguishes between the "personal", Freudian unconscious, filled with sexual fantasies and repressed images, and the "collective" unconscious encompassing the soul of humanity at large.

In "The Significance of Constitution and Heredity in Psychology" (November 1929), Jung wrote:

And the essential thing, psychologically, is that in dreams, fantasies, and other exceptional states of mind the most far-fetched mythological motifs and symbols can appear autochthonously at any time, often, apparently, as the result of particular influences, traditions, and excitations working on the individual, but more often without any sign of them. These "primordial images" or "archetypes," as I have called them, belong to the basic stock of the unconscious psyche and cannot be explained as personal acquisitions. Together they make up that psychic stratum which has been called the collective unconscious.
The existence of the collective unconscious means that individual consciousness is anything but a tabula rasa and is not immune to predetermining influences. On the contrary, it is in the highest degree influenced by inherited presuppositions, quite apart from the unavoidable influences exerted upon it by the environment. The collective unconscious comprises in itself the psychic life of our ancestors right back to the earliest beginnings. It is the matrix of all conscious psychic occurrences, and hence it exerts an influence that compromises the freedom of consciousness in the highest degree, since it is continually striving to lead all conscious processes back into the old paths.

I love how Zuko in Avatar: the Last Airbender is always obsessing over his destiny believed to be linked with his father the fire lord, only to on day learn that his mothers grandfather was Avatar Roku.

The Islamic explanation I find most satisfying to explain all of mankind's common destiny, should we by our intuition, instinct, and sincerity choose to accept it, is that our final grandfather was originally a dweller of paradise with exactly one restriction. The capacity to violate and the urge to violate that rule was ultimately a mistake made for which forgiveness was sought and granted. If understood in that way, our destiny should, we choose to accept it, is to endure discipline and self-control, to seek forgiveness from Allah should we err, and hopefully return to our true original home in paradise.

Quote:As modern humans go through their process of individuation, moving out of the collective unconscious into mature selves, they establish a persona—which can be understood simply as that small portion of the collective psyche which they embody, perform, and identify with.

It is our belief as Muslims (sunni Muslims) that Adam, the father of all mankind was brought before Allah and every human being EVER was taken out from Adam as individuals and all of mankind was then asked by Allah to testify "Am I not your lord" to which all of mankind at that time answered "Yes". All of mankind was then placed back into Adam and the ceremony was complete. We humans now carry only in a vague intuitive sense a memory of this testimony. We therefore should be honest enough with ourselves to recognize and submit to our sworn duty by making a serious effort to intuit what path leads most directly back to Allah.

Quote:They evidently live and function in the deeper layers of the unconscious, especially in that phylogenetic substratum which I have called the collective unconscious. This localization explains a good deal of their strangeness: they bring into our ephemeral consciousness an unknown psychic life belonging to a remote past. It is the mind of our unknown ancestors, their way of thinking and feeling , their way of experiencing life and the world, gods and men. The existence of these archaic strata is presumably the source of man's belief in reincarnations and in memories of "previous experiences". Just as the human body is a museum, so to speak, of its phylogenetic history, so too is the psyche.

I wonder if this is why it is so much easier to relate to your own children than anybody else's. It seems like it HAS to be deeper than just spending time with them... John Taylor Gatto said that when children were put up for adoption and sent west away from their parents (I don't remember which talk) that eventually crime became uncontrollable as these parent-less kids ended up having little to no morality.

I know that in the Maturidi aqeedah of the Muslims, we say of the desert Island man who never meets a Muslim, that he IS responsible in the eyes of Allah to know that Allah is One. The basis for this is the instinct or intuition drawn on by Ibrahim in particular, before Allah made him a prophet. When Ibrahim came to question the idolatry of his time, he by observation and reflection intuited that his god had to be One, and not of this world.

Quote:Jung cited recurring themes as evidence of the existence of psychic elements shared among all humans. For example: "The snake-motif was certainly not an individual acquisition of the dreamer, for snake-dreams are very common even among city-dwellers who have probably never seen a real snake." Still better evidence, he felt, came when patients described complex images and narratives with obscure mythological parallels. Jung's leading example of this phenomenon was a paranoid-schizophrenic patient who could see the sun's dangling phallus, whose motion caused wind to blow on earth. Jung found a direct analogue of this idea in the "Mithras Liturgy", from the Greek Magical Papyri of Ancient Egypt—only just translated into German—which also discussed a phallic tube, hanging from the sun, and causing wind to blow on earth. He concluded that the patient's vision and the ancient Liturgy arose from the same source in the collective unconscious.

I wonder if the question has ever been asked about the collective unconscious, what potential does a study of literature, mythology, or religion have to bridge the gap between the collective unconscious and the personal unconscious?

It would seem to me that the motifs which occur in various literatures accross cultures ultimately provide a greater framework for arriving at an accurate view of the collective unconscious. The pervasive belief in a single leader type god, even among hindus who actually still have the kind of super god above the others... or something like that.

The elements in common to various religious traditions might suggest something about the actual nature of the collective unconscious. More interestingly, the popularity of certain religious themes, and their relative pervasiveness, could explain to a more accurate great the exact nature of the collective unconscious, thus explaining various religious traditions ability to resonate with people.

Quote:Going beyond the individual mind, Jung believed that "the whole of mythology could be taken as a sort of projection of the collective unconscious". Therefore, psychologists could learn about the collective unconscious by studying religions and spiritual practices of all cultures, as well as belief systems like astrology.

Oh, I kinda just said that.

Quote:But the collective unconscious lies beyond the conceptual limitations of individual human consciousness, and thus cannot possibly be encompassed by them. We cannot, therefore, make controlled experiments to prove the existence of the collective unconscious, for the psyche of man , holistically conceived, cannot be brought under laboratory conditions without doing violence to its nature. […] In this respect, psychology may be compared to astronomy, the phenomena of which also cannot be enclosed within a controlled setting. The heavenly bodies must be observed where they exist in the natural universe, under their own conditions, rather than under conditions we might propose to set for them.

Let me explain 20th century and industrial revolution type thinking.

Wow, people are pieces of shit. We should probably try to rebut the evidence that they are not. Holy crap, look at these losers losing. Boy, people are pieces of shit.

A lot of people trying to make sure that dangerous self-respecting non-conformists, what used to be called "Americans", created a myriad of institutions to break up co-operative organizations and anything which empowered people. Flash forward to the results of these institutions (like school), now you look around and it seems that the "humans are pieces of shit" attitude has gained a lot of ground. Humans were treated as if they were bad, and so overtime came to actually be bad (to some degree). Fact was it wasn't "over-time" with regards to school. Once you abandon your kids to some system, the kids so abandoned frequently act out violently against one another, and this is not a recent phenomena.

When a lack of coercion and self-discipline make and keep people free, those are the time periods in history to study what a human beings are, and what humans are capable of. In other words, focus on the legitimately good times of human history to see what people are really capable of. 19th century America, 7th century Islamic civlization (although 10th & 11th century were pretty awesome too). I would list more examples, but I really don't know much history.

Quote:We have only to disregard the dependence of dream language on environment and substitute "eagle" for "aeroplane," "dragon" for "automobile" or "train," "snake-bite" for "injection," and so forth, in order to arrive at the more universal and more fundamental language of mythology. This give us access to the primordial images that underlie all thinking and have a considerable influence even on our scientific ideas.

It sounds like that Marcus Aurelius quote from Silence of the Lambs, where he says "of every particular thing, ask 'what is it in itself? what is its nature?'"

I call it "Abstractification", to "Abstractify", meaning make a principle or an idea out of something specific. I am the Analogist because I will make an example out of an old dog turd.

If you leave a dog turd under a rug, it will fester and spread its putridity. If it remains in the sun, it will dry out and be easily brushed away.

take the turd to be unpleasantness, and the sun to be attention.

I came to this analogy when one of my teachers asked me for advice on, "should we talk openly about sexual abuse in our community", for which I gave the example of the dog turd.

It is my belief, not so much in the collective unconscious, but in a global all encompassing Truth with a capital "T". This is that One God created everything and thus all of reality bears His signature, and like an intricate woven web it is all connected. If you truly grasp the reailty of any one thing, you have it within yourself to comprehend all-truth by means of analogy, connecting the seemingly unrelated by way of meaning. I think it is the deepest aspect of human intellect and it is my thesis as to why it seems that every major inventor actually contributes to a ton of different disciplines as well. Inventors are rarely specialists, not famous ones that is. (maybe I am wrong though)

Quote:Personal experiences both activate archetypes in the mind and give them meaning and substance for individual. At the same time, archetypes covertly organize human experience and memory, their powerful effects becoming apparent only indirectly and in retrospect.

For me there is great depth to knowing the stories of the prophets. They are ideal men in various contexts, providing examples for us to draw inspiration from. Muslims who are ignorant of their tradition, are just like those people who just mindlessly go through the motions of life. nothing is particularly meaningful because its just a series of moments, signifying nothing. A tale told by an idiot. (That was a butchered Shakespeare "quote")

Quote:In the interpretation of analytical psychologist Mary Williams, a patient who understands the impact of the archetype can help to dissociate the underlying symbol from the real person who embodies the symbol for the patient. In this way, the patient no longer uncritically transfers their feelings about the archetype onto people in everyday life, and as a result can develop healthier and more personal relationships.

I don't really understand this.

Quote:Groups of people can become especially receptive to specific symbols due to the historical situation they find themselves in.

Kinda sounds like me identifying with Moses when it seem like my job is run by Pharoah. Our Prophet (saws) said, the best jihad is the word of truth in the face of a tyrant. The reason is clear to me. There is much to be lost by doing this, perhaps even your life, but it is well worth the effort. I certainly know I would have a very hard time effectively confronting any of the tyrants I have found myself working for. I did walk out of a job once, but that was it.

Quote:The common importance of the collective unconscious makes people ripe for political manipulation, especially in the era of mass politics. Jung compared mass movements to mass psychoses, comparable to demonic possession in which people uncritically channel unconscious symbolism through the social dynamic of the mob and the leader.

Sounds kinda like Trump making America great again...

Quote:Although civilization leads people to disavow their links with the mythological world of uncivilized societies, Jung argued that aspects of the primitive unconscious would nevertheless reassert themselves in the form of superstitions, everyday practices, and unquestioned traditions such as the Christmas tree.

Ha! probably not a good example though. I don't think those customs ever left and for good reason. It is depressing as hell in Europe when the sun is gone and its too cold to grow anything or go anywhere. Light up candles and take back the night!! of course!!!

I actually string up Christmas lights inside my house all year 'round like to rainy days or winter nights. Its like starlight and its really pretty, and comforting.

Quote:Based on empirical inquiry, Jung felt that all humans, regardless of racial and geographic differences, share the same collective pool of instincts and images, though these manifest differently due to the moulding influence of culture. However, above and in addition to the primordial collective unconscious, people within a certain culture may share additional bodies of primal collective ideas.

This would be my most basic defense for the claim in Islam that most of the major prophets were the ones in and around the middle east. These were a people by their history and culture to be more inclined towards and understanding of prophethood (although in pretty much every story they are STILL being resisted)... but I digress. Fact is nowadays all the best scholars I know are Indian and the Arabs seem to have forgotten about Islam...

Quote:In a minimalist interpretation of what would then appear as "Jung's much misunderstood idea of the collective unconscious", his idea was "simply that certain structures and predispositions of the unconscious are common to all of us...[on] an inherited, species-specific, genetic basis". Thus "one could as easily speak of the 'collective arm' – meaning the basic pattern of bones and muscles which all human arms share in common."

Others point out however that "there does seem to be a basic ambiguity in Jung's various descriptions of the Collective Unconscious. Sometimes he seems to regard the predisposition to experience certain images as understandable in terms of some genetic model" – as with the collective arm. However, Jung was "also at pains to stress the numinous quality of these experiences, and there can be no doubt that he was attracted to the idea that the archetypes afford evidence of some communion with some divine or world mind', and perhaps 'his popularity as a thinker derives precisely from this" – the maximal interpretation.

This does sound like the "we are all descendants of Adam" idea and that Allah first made the human soul, divided first into gender, and subdivided thereafter every specific person. I do believe that the power Islamic theology has over me is because I am on some level more honest/in touch with my inner self and these ideas give exact and definite structure to a vague blueprint I feel a prior familiarity with.

Purity is to Believe only that which deserves it.
Wisdom is to follow only the Opinion which makes the best use of evidence.
Excellence is to be mindful of all these things in Living.
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08-01-2016 01:28 PM
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