Crying Children

[DreamRebel]

Not too long ago, I went to a church that I don't normally go to.
About five minutes after Mass started, a girl of about two who was sitting next to me got really loudly upset, squirming and crying and screaming that she wanted to go home. I hadn't paid attention to anything but the reading until she said that, so I didn't know the entirety of the story, but the lady who was with her (I don't know if it was a mom, and aunt, a grandmother, or a nanny, since I was mostly looking at the child, and didn't even look at her long) seemed to be handling what I knew about well. I didn't look too long, since I didn't want to embarrass them or anything, and as I turned my head back to the sanctuary, in my peripheral vision I could see seven other churchgoers turning to stare at the girl and her caretaker. I looked at them, and all of their faces were firmer than they were observant or anxious; I was glad we were somewhere where they wouldn't make judgmental comments. That's when I got the idea to stare at them with the same expression. It only took a few seconds for three of them to turn back forwards, two of them adopted more neutral expressions but still stared until the child and caretaker left, one of them kept staring as the child and caretaker left, and another stared firmly at me for a few seconds once the child and caretaker left the pew.


The heck?

[the Analogist]

A lot of so called organized religion is pathetically disorganized. Can anybody cite me any religion's official policy on children in the prayer area?

My understanding in Islam, partly according to my teachers: boys don't need to pray until they are like 13, but you're encouraged to start teaching them at 7, then really insisting at 10. For girls i think its whenever they get their periods. As for actually going to the mosques, women get no additional reward for attending, but they are totally permitted. Boys, having no responsibility for prayer, and a preponderance for distraction and distracting, are not Islamically getting anything out of being there except some exposure we may mis-believe is beneficial. The prayer hall is supposed to be a place for peace and reflection not for kids need to be disciplined and controlled or have rightfully annoyed elders making them feel unwanted. I actually hate taking my kids for a lot of those reasons, and because not only do I have to keep track of them, but they do distract me and others. proper etiquette for congregational prayer is that the boys below 13 form a separate row in the very back, not mixed in with the adults.

Of course Muslims nowadays seem to know jack shit about anything at all, 2 year old's peeing themselves and running around yelling are constantly found in mosques. So my "escape" from worldly life for worship is quite a bit more disruptive than the drive to get there.

I'm not sure exactly what the purpose of the ritual you were describing was, but I highly doubt it would be very beneficial to a kid that young. As for child care, I know my wife has a real hard time watching all three kids by herself pretty much constantly because its the 21st century and communities are dead and money doesn't grow on trees therefore she is SOL since I'm not making a jillion dollars to hire a nanny or something...

digression aside, judgy people are annoying in every context.

[DreamRebel]

I'll give you a description of Catholic Mass, since you're curious. I've only ever been to Catholic Mass and Orthodox Christian mass, but I don't remember if there's a difference between the two. One thing every Christian denomination has in common though, is that there is Mass every Sunday.

It starts out with a song, which varies. It's always an at least vaguely religious song, as far as I've heard. Some congregations like to sing along, and all churches provide songbooks to make it easier, but not all of the singing is done by more than the cantor and choir. From there there are a few scripture readings, creed recitations and songs, as well as what is known as a sermon or homily. That's where the priest discusses how the readings, current events, literature, etc would pertain to the faith and everyday life. Sometimes there is no homily/sermon, and the tone thereof depends on the priest. As well, people change position from standing to sitting to kneeling and vice versa a lot. That was the Liturgy of the Word, and the next part is the Liturgy of the Eucharist, which isn't quite relative to this anecdote and too complex to be explained briefly. At the end of the Mass, announcements are made about events in the parish such as bake sales, food drives, if a different pries will be saying the Mass next time, and when volunteers can help decorate for Christmas. Then Mass ends with another song. Some churches have little meals afterwards, especially pancake breakfasts.
People of any age can attend, and newer churches have rooms in the back for parents with particularly small children (and people with tourettes syndrome, I'm guessing.) while older churches put speakerphones in the vestibule for them so they don't have to remodel.
In Catholic schooling, school-age children get their very own weekday Mass, and unless they're sick they have to attend, even if the student isn't Catholic. I don't know if the attendance rule is universal, but in two different schools I've had class and Mass with a Muslim and with another classmate whose religion I don't know.
I've never attended a Mass that didn't have at least one pre-adolescent child, but you don't see very many at once, and they normally keep quiet. And at my usual church, there's always a few mothers with babies, who cry occasionally but are always attended to quickly. And really, this alternative parish is the only one where more than one bystander has turned to look at this sort of thing, and the only one where anybody has looked with that sort of expression.
I only attend other churches out of whim or necessity, though, since I've found every parish but a few to be downright pretentious, or antisocial in some cases. Only in a few churches do you see 70% of the congregation actually talking to each other on the way out, or greeting you if you're new, or actually paying attention to children and elders in a social fashion. In many other churches, children don't even pay much attention to each other, and if they do, their parents will just drag them along.
Some people, no matter their age, might enjoy Mass, hate it, or have no particular opinion.

[TheCancer]

I don't go to church but if I'm at a restaurant and a baby or kid is throwing I fit I will be rude about it. I want to eat in peace. You can get a babysitter, not have a baby, stay home with your baby, breast feed your baby, take your baby out and keep it quiet but having an infant ruin my meal isn't one of your options. I can hear my neighbor's baby crying from her apartment to mine. I know that's unavoidable so I don't mind. But taking your baby everywhere you want to go doesn't work. You have a baby, now. Sorry that comes with sacrifice. You don't get everything you want in this world.

[DreamRebel]

(05-17-2016 10:12 PM)TheCancer Wrote:  I don't go to church but if I'm at a restaurant and a baby or kid is throwing I fit I will be rude about it. I want to eat in peace. You can get a babysitter, not have a baby, stay home with your baby, breast feed your baby, take your baby out and keep it quiet but having an infant ruin my meal isn't one of your options. I can hear my neighbor's baby crying from her apartment to mine. I know that's unavoidable so I don't mind. But taking your baby everywhere you want to go doesn't work. You have a baby, now. Sorry that comes with sacrifice. You don't get everything you want in this world.

You don't seem to know much about not raising emotionally damaged babies.

[SoulRiser]

Quote:That's when I got the idea to stare at them with the same expression. It only took a few seconds for three of them to turn back forwards, two of them adopted more neutral expressions but still stared until the child and caretaker left, one of them kept staring as the child and caretaker left, and another stared firmly at me for a few seconds once the child and caretaker left the pew.

Haha, this sounds like something I would do. Staring back makes people really uncomfortable.

[TheCancer]

I know I don't want to worry about it when I'm out trying to enjoy myself.

[DreamRebel]

(05-18-2016 12:10 PM)TheCancer Wrote:  I know I don't want to worry about it when I'm out trying to enjoy myself.

Fair enough, but a lot of parents do tend to take their babies with them for mental health and sentimental reasons. Babies aren't ever too young to miss their mom and dad, and I read a lot of studies on the subject.

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(05-18-2016 10:35 AM)SoulRiser Wrote:  

Quote:That's when I got the idea to stare at them with the same expression. It only took a few seconds for three of them to turn back forwards, two of them adopted more neutral expressions but still stared until the child and caretaker left, one of them kept staring as the child and caretaker left, and another stared firmly at me for a few seconds once the child and caretaker left the pew.

Haha, this sounds like something I would do. Staring back makes people really uncomfortable.

Awesome!

[brainiac3397]

"What the fuck are you looking at?" is known to have a decent rate of breaking off the gaze of the strangers. As Americans, we all reserve the unalienable right as individuals to tell busybodies to promptly screw themselves in a proper fashion.

Kids cry. Get the fuck over it and maybe loosen that pucker so the rod slips out a little more. Its one thing if the parent/guardian is trying to do something about and its another if they dont seem to realize they have kids.

AFAIK some churches are tolerant of kids. Plus they have different mass hours so early birds get a less packed one (at least at the episcopalian church I attended for an anthropology research project). Then again Roman Catholics are dreadful bunch even if I think the babes look hot in black. All serious, cold, and stone-faced. Theyd even make God bored IMO. Great archicteure though. Can never go wrong with stone and gothic style.

[DreamRebel]

Catholics nowadays don't have the best architecture. Newer churches look like they're lopsided cardboard boxes lined with marble and draped in blockiness.
And like with any faith, the behavior depends on the congregation. My church is mostly really nice, casual, elders.

[the Analogist]

Hey TheCancer, where is your next meal out? My Wife and three kids are feeling cooped up

But seriously, when they ask you questions for a restaurant job or customer service they say "are you comfortable working with the public". Yeah, its because you have no control over "the public" and you have to accept them or get another job.

I would say to you what a restaurant manager would if you've got a problem with this "public", maybe you ought to go somewhere else.

Why go out in the public to whine about the public? Oh, are you the only one entitled to go out? Having kids means you must remain couped up in home or exclusively go to creepy old chuckie cheese? Oh the boldness of being anti-screaming child! nobody has heard that opinion before.

I totally agree with movies though

[TheCancer]

I'm not trying to be bold.

Don't want to feel cooped up with a baby? Don't have one. I'm not a restaurant manager; when I go out to eat I'm a customer. Yeah, I don't want to hear your howling child when I'm trying to relax. Sorry people can't have everything they want. Neither can I.