Two bad points about this site

[TheCancer]

1) If you have to go to school anyway it behooves you to maintain a positive attitude about it. In this case, the truth doesn't set you free. Even though the underlying and constant themes of this site are true they probably do most compulsory students more harm than good. Having the reasons you hate school frequently reinforced will make it harder to have a successful and enjoyable day to day experience. Fixating on the negative will make you even more miserable.

2) It offers hope when realistically there is none. Sure, there are some outlier experiences out there but for almost of all of you there's only one possible reality. You're going to go to school. You're not going to be homeschooled, unschooled, study whatever you want, drop out, or anything of the like. All these dreams to the contrary are pie in the sky delusions. Presenting these unorthodox ideas to your parents is likely to result in alienation and the kind of attention you don't want, like cracking down on everything you do online. The more you're convinced these possibilities are realistic and on the table the greater the chasm between you and your parents will be. Your parents will consider these ideas abnormal and then they'll become worried about you.

I'm not saying the bad outweighs the good; I'm saying there are two sides to every coin. Those of you who come here are naturally smart critical thinkers. Unfortunately, sometimes that good quality makes life harder. On the counterpoint, don't forget to be critical of the criticisms.

[Aureate]

Interesting post. It's going to be highly controversial, I think, but I agree with your second point. I would only add that it is beneficial to at least introduce one's parents to unschooling, in case they're abnormally open to it, and this site has definitely organized many such introductions. Of course, as you implied, those introductions tend to turn into bitter wars, and you can't win a war against someone who owns you.

I'm not sure what I think about your first point. The "possibly related threads" did an incredibly good job by referencing this. Dirtbikemike's reaction is a perfect example of the "truth not setting you free," and I've experienced it too. But when I really introspect, and I think about those times I threw anti-school books down in fierce idealistic anger, I can't say I was unhappy. Honestly, being righteously angry, when one has good reason, is kind of fun. It's energizing. I sometimes read parenting books advocating the most disciplinarian style imaginable because, inexplicably, there's a certain enjoyment to feeling oppressed. You once described something similar when you said you were actually glad you went to school because it made you a "darker person" and you liked feeling that way. Perhaps anger is a closer emotion to motivation than misery, and greater anger is not always equal to greater harm.

Also, I hated going to school for the same reasons long before I felt my hatred was perfectly defensible or backed by a wide group. It's nice to at least feel justified, even if one must take on uncomfortable emotions to do so (I don't think one must).

Since I've partly agreed with you, I'll offer a similar disclaimer: The bad doesn't outweigh the good. I'm very happy this site exists.

---

Just out of curiosity, was it this thread that prompted you to post this?

[TheCancer]

Yes, this was inspired by that thread but I'm not commenting on schoolsux's situation directly. I certainly don't want to upset schoolsux or schoolsux's parents.

[magikarp]

I disagree that alternatives are inherently unrealistic. If you're in the situation where everyone takes it as a given that you are going to college, you pretty much just need to sell your parents on the idea that you can get into college anyway. I was homeschooled for the last half of highschool and it was fine. Now, long after it matters, my mom is super into unschooling even though I'm kind of lukewarm about it.

(For what it's worth, I did go to college. Then I went to grad school because it's the socially acceptable answer to fucking around for 2 or 5 more years.)

[TheCancer]

My position is based on the belief that your situation was a very rare one. I don't think that's even remotely on the table for the vast majority. I have no proof that my assumption is correct, however.

[magikarp]

Most of the people my parents' age I know are somewhat sympathetic even if they believe it's impractical (i.e., open to being convinced). Obviously "people I know" is not a random sample, but I don't think it's extremely rare.

(I think in the case college isn't or is only maybe on the table, parents are less likely to agree--and they're probably right. Despite what people say on here, I don't think very many people think of the GED as a real equivalent.)

[TheCancer]

I've been teaching for a pretty long time and my observations have caused me to believe that the most important role the schools provide in the eyes of most parents is free day care. It's not like people come out and say it but they're almost universally grateful to have their parental responsibilities and burdens lightened.

...and if a child is arguing with his mother it's very unlikely she's going to agree to letting him stay at home even more of the time.

[magikarp]

Most of the parents I know are 'involved' to the point of the helicopter parenting kind of stereotype, so I think it depends. (I mean people don't not rely on school as daycare if they work, but it's less relevant for a teenager.)

I mean, the most I'm willing to say is I don't think it would have been an impossibility for most of the people I knew growing up or for the children of people I know now. I really have no idea how common that is generally.

[SoulRiser]

Interesting points. I don't think they're untrue. However...

Quote:If you have to go to school anyway it behooves you to maintain a positive attitude about it. In this case, the truth doesn't set you free. Even though the underlying and constant themes of this site are true they probably do most compulsory students more harm than good. Having the reasons you hate school frequently reinforced will make it harder to have a successful and enjoyable day to day experience. Fixating on the negative will make you even more miserable.

What's the alternative? Convince yourself it's better than it actually is? Convince yourself there's something wrong with you for hating it?

People could address this, though. Like noting down at least one good thing that happened at school each day, for example... just to prove it's not all bad. This is actually something people recommend to anyone who wants to be happier overall.

Me personally, though? I'd rather be miserable in a situation than have to do all sorts of mind-trickery to convince myself it's not that bad, just so that I can be less miserable.

But it'd be good to have links to guides for doing that sort of thing for those who want to try it, though.

Quote:It offers hope when realistically there is none. Sure, there are some outlier experiences out there but for almost of all of you there's only one possible reality. You're going to go to school. You're not going to be homeschooled, unschooled, study whatever you want, drop out, or anything of the like. All these dreams to the contrary are pie in the sky delusions. Presenting these unorthodox ideas to your parents is likely to result in alienation and the kind of attention you don't want, like cracking down on everything you do online. The more you're convinced these possibilities are realistic and on the table the greater the chasm between you and your parents will be. Your parents will consider these ideas abnormal and then they'll become worried about you.

It totally depends on the parents, and on how you present these ideas to them... I'd actually like to find out, statistically, how many people have managed to convince their parents to let them try some alternative after coming to SS. I know it has happened at least a few times...

Obviously, shouting and screaming doesn't work very well. And it's hard to come up with a one-size-fits-all plan that would work for all parents... probably because there is no such thing.

Still, it's the parents' fault for the chasms... but ignoring their probable reactions isn't wise either. So maybe some kind of "worst case scenario" guide would be useful, for dealing with parents and their crazy reactions to "abnormal" things.

I know I was pretty much really, really bad at expressing myself verbally back when I was a teenager (and for many years after that too). I still have trouble thinking of ways to describe things spontaneously. Which is why I always recommend that kids write to their parents instead of trying to have these complex & often emotional conversations verbally.

Thanks for this thread, actually, it's bringing up some interesting stuff worth thinking about.

[TheCancer]

I guess part of it boils down to the Serenity Prayer concept.

[Azine]

(01-11-2016 02:44 AM)magikarp Wrote:  I disagree that alternatives are inherently unrealistic. If you're in the situation where everyone takes it as a given that you are going to college, you pretty much just need to sell your parents on the idea that you can get into college anyway. I was homeschooled for the last half of highschool and it was fine. Now, long after it matters, my mom is super into unschooling even though I'm kind of lukewarm about it.

(For what it's worth, I did go to college. Then I went to grad school because it's the socially acceptable answer to fucking around for 2 or 5 more years.)

Agreed, and I know more examples. If you can get out of school depends on laws, how you try to convince your parents (if you even try) but also if not mostly on what kind of people your parents are.
There are parents who can be convinced, mainly through the college route...And then there are parents who are so abusive the kid has to do ANYTHING they tell them too, including school, and any own feelingsideas/dreams of the teen are not considered, not even remotely.
People with such parents are in a deeply awful situation...

I often wonder about this too. How many parents can be convinced? And how many parents will not sway, bow or break in even the tiniest ways?

What is the percentage for either?

Well I can only hope...Hope and try to give people tools to convince parents, and just tools to cope with stuff in general...
And just keep on hoping that one day persons are not as categorized by age as they are now.

[SoulRiser]

Quote:I guess part of it boils down to the Serenity Prayer concept.

The part of that thing about "accepting what you cannot change" always bugged me... who's to say what can or cannot be changed? How do you know for sure? How do you know you're not just giving up prematurely, and if you persevered a bit longer, you might have changed something?

On the other hand, accepting that one particular approach isn't going to change anything, well that's fine. There are always other approaches to try...

[Ky]

(01-11-2016 03:41 AM)TheCancer Wrote:  I've been teaching for a pretty long time and my observations have caused me to believe that the most important role the schools provide in the eyes of most parents is free day care. It's not like people come out and say it but they're almost universally grateful to have their parental responsibilities and burdens lightened.

...and if a child is arguing with his mother it's very unlikely she's going to agree to letting him stay at home even more of the time.

Sounds about accurate. Not everyone can be sold on the alternatives, and some School Survivalists will have to bear the brunt of that. I know I had to.

[sswbm]

Knowing the truth makes you less vulnerable to brainwashing.