Doesn't work can be just as grueling and miserable as school?

[MurkScribe]

To be honest one of the main arguements against unschooling is that these unschoolers need to learn the boundries in society and obey to their bosses. And one unschooler might reply with, but work is voluntary! And as for me, when confronted with this issue I respond with, well even though work itself isn't eniterly voluntary I would say it requires some amount of submission and obdience to the bosses, unschooling gives the child the courage and the capacity to think for themselves and have the ability to recognize illegitimate forms of authority or better yet authorities in general. Also It could be entirely possible for the child to move unto more autonomous forms of work, even though work itself isn't entirely voluntary and society itself could possibly be a very conservative christian fundamentalist society, that shouldn't justify for children to be made miserable, scolded, and punished for the molding to be obedient to that society.

[TheCancer]

If I quit working I would be homeless. The consequences of not working as an adult are far more cruel than quitting school as a child. And work sucks much more than school ever could. There's no getting around it. It's hopeless, crushing, and completely depressing.

[Cianna200]

I thought I was alone in questioning unconditional working. Agree completely with Cancer, that's why I responded to a post from you with yes when you asked if life was a prison. When our freedom to think for ourselves is restricted, life is a prison, when fear (like the fear of homelessness, similar to the fear of hell) and control grip our minds, like is a prison. There is no mercy for those who want to break from the chains of society's unfair rules. Fear is an extremely powerful and effective tool to get people to do your bidding.

[SoulRiser]

Depends on what work you do. If you're determined enough, there's always a way to get out of a bad job and find a better one, or make a better one if you don't want to deal with bosses either.

[Cianna200]

That however still technically means you are trapped in the cycle of control.

[TheCancer]

"Depends on what work you do. If you're determined enough, there's always a way to get out of a bad job and find a better one, or make a better one if you don't want to deal with bosses either."

For some people that's true. For most people, it's not true at all.

---

"That however still technically means you are trapped in the cycle of control"

That's right because society is structured in a way that forces you to have money to survive and then they don't even give you the money.

[MurkScribe]

I find it angering when people say work is voluntary, It kind of angers me, though some people are less likely to feel stuck than other people, and some people found jobs that are engaging to them. It's nice that I found people who agree with me that life is a prison beyond school, and school is a 12 year prison sentence in preperation for a consumer based culture and economy, aka capitalis, with the police, the state, entertainment industry revolving around the ignorance of the masses. So I guess unschooling is kind of a hippie movement in a way though, you can be binded and trapped by your job or work, maybe it's because the position cancer is in, because of a dysfunctional education system that degrades both the student and teacher. But maybe you can avoid possibly the work related prison that binds and holds people. Or maybe this destruction is a mere illusion and maybe we have much more power then we think?

[MurkScribe]

Even though leaving bosses and finding another boss can possibly increase)your living standrad depending on the market)forces and the demand for it. I dont know if the systen is entirely a prison, can you dodge the bullet and the shackles?

[brainiac3397]

(07-25-2015 01:25 PM)MurkScribe Wrote:  I find it angering when people say work is voluntary, It kind of angers me, though some people are less likely to feel stuck than other people, and some people found jobs that are engaging to them. It's nice that I found people who agree with me that life is a prison beyond school, and school is a 12 year prison sentence in preperation for a consumer based culture and economy, aka capitalis, with the police, the state, entertainment industry revolving around the ignorance of the masses. So I guess unschooling is kind of a hippie movement in a way though, you can be binded and trapped by your job or work, maybe it's because the position cancer is in, because of a dysfunctional education system that degrades both the student and teacher. But maybe you can avoid possibly the work related prison that binds and holds people. Or maybe this destruction is a mere illusion and maybe we have much more power then we think?

Work is voluntary. So is life. Choice not to work is a choice not to live. If man can choose suicide, what stops them from choosing vagrancy and starvation.

Personally, I find the idea that "life is prison" to be nihilistic bullshit. As if they were of the opinion that the world was happy-go-lucky-lawless before they realized that reality was not a sandbox adventure. Calling life a prison, to me at least, appears as if the person believing it had some unrealistic fantasy view of the truth of existence. It's a case of narrow-mindedness, bias, and the destruction of a naive idealistic belief.

Work is a natural fact IMO.

To exist, one must create. To create, one must work. To work, one must exist.

[Cianna200]

Work is not voluntary if punishment is set for not doing it, because than we would be acting on pressured impulse and not our own uncoerced accord, ruled by emotion and not reason. Just remember who decided that in order to live, we must engage in materialistic matters controlled by the masses, us, not life, us. Guess who controls how others think and act, us. Who decided that we should starve if we don't submit to unnatural laws, us, animals don't have to worry about this crap, nature didn't create it. Of course life is not a bucket of roses all the time, we have spiritual suffering, like the death of people we care for, the knowledge that we can't get what we want all the time, and the fact that we can't just snap our fingers and all problems will just magically disappear, of course not!
Than there is the suffering created by us, poverty, authoritarianism, ect.
We are intelligent beings, we have a conscience, we are very much aware.
You call it bullshit, I call it an intelligent observation, somebody has questioned life and have noticed something, it can only be B.S. if their belief is a complete and utter delusion. I happen to know that it is a learning experience to have suffering in life, but life becomes a prison when we decide to add on to that suffering. When we let go of these delusions that we can control each other, life is more free. We all must open our eyes, when that day comes, we can finally learn to question the world around us, which is another reason why we don't need school. We need more thinkers in this world. Also yes work is natural but the work we humans have created is not.

[no]

Sure work is required for life. I don't think anyone's denying that.

Just, why the fuck does it have to be so unpleasant? Do thing, get paid? Simple enough. Deal. I'll do your thing. Oh, I did the thing ever so slightly wrong by your standards even though the client is in love with it? Oh, I'm supposed to change my own long-considered-and-revised-over-many-years beliefs to agree with a boss who is a total shithead? Oh, I have to wear an inverted noose which does nothing, is uncomfortable as shit, and looks so incredibly stupid that I can't even put into words precisely how brain-annihilatingly worthless it is? Fuck that bullshit. I'd rather scrounge glass bottles and dumpster-dive and die of a gruesome disease on the side of a road somewhere.

[schoolsux]

Totally agree with Sharpie here, unless you are homeless in Honolulu. Or somewhere where the weather is nice year-round.

[TheCancer]

Where are those cut up corpses? I need something to get me geared up for breakfast!

[SoulRiser]

Work is technically voluntary... if you don't mind being homeless. Or maybe living out in a hut in the middle of nowhere and growing your own food in your back yard... if you can find a spot in the middle of nowhere that you won't get evicted from.

I like comfort and internet, though, so I prefer to go the passive income route... work is optional about 90% of the time for me. But sometimes, something needs doing somewhere. I'm OK with that, and I actually like starting a new project every now and then, and experimenting with things to see what makes money and what doesn't. Kind of like getting XP in a game, or something.

Technically, anyone can do what I do... but very few do. I mean, I figured this stuff out by searching the internet and experimenting... anyone with internet can do it. I guess other people just aren't determined enough? I don't know...

I suppose if everyone on earth had enough passive income to live on, a lot of stuff would fall apart. I think that might actually be a good thing... only the things people want to work on would survive.

[MurkScribe]

Hmmm I would actually like to receive a passive income for myself or so,e sort of income that I would find intellectual comfort and joy out of doing, maybe unschoolers live or do something else different and follow by different means of income and ways. Some are more prefable than others.

[brainiac3397]

(07-25-2015 01:54 PM)Cianna200 Wrote:  Work is not voluntary if punishment is set for not doing it, because than we would be acting on pressured impulse and not our own uncoerced accord, ruled by emotion and not reason. Just remember who decided that in order to live, we must engage in materialistic matters controlled by the masses, us, not life, us. Guess who controls how others think and act, us. Who decided that we should starve if we don't submit to unnatural laws, us, animals don't have to worry about this crap, nature didn't create it. Of course life is not a bucket of roses all the time, we have spiritual suffering, like the death of people we care for, the knowledge that we can't get what we want all the time, and the fact that we can't just snap our fingers and all problems will just magically disappear, of course not!
Than there is the suffering created by us, poverty, authoritarianism, ect.
We are intelligent beings, we have a conscience, we are very much aware.
You call it bullshit, I call it an intelligent observation, somebody has questioned life and have noticed something, it can only be B.S. if their belief is a complete and utter delusion. I happen to know that it is a learning experience to have suffering in life, but life becomes a prison when we decide to add on to that suffering. When we let go of these delusions that we can control each other, life is more free. We all must open our eyes, when that day comes, we can finally learn to question the world around us, which is another reason why we don't need school. We need more thinkers in this world. Also yes work is natural but the work we humans have created is not.

I'm punished for trying to break the laws of physics. Am I being oppressed by nature then?

Yes, some bosses are cocksuckers. Does that mean the work is bad? No, it means that humans are capable of being cocksuckers. Dealing with the fact that there are always shitty people is one part of humanity we should really focus on. There's nothing work with the work, it's the culture.

Which is human. Thus human is the problem at the core.

Hidden stuff:

Kill All Humans!

[Cianna200]

That's not punishment, it's cause and effect, nature was designed that way, trip over a log and you fall flat on your face. Forced work is bad, that is what I meant. It's not just jerks I am talking about, but you have given a fairly good answer. Yet, "kill all humans" is worse than "life is prison"

[ComradeDaryl]

http://freegan.info/what-is-a-freegan/fr...of-donuts/

http://freegan.info/what-is-a-freegan/fr...d-the-law/

You could always live in the wilderness or live as a nomad practicing Dumpster diving if you don't want to live "conventionally". Has anyone thought of that so far?

[schoolsux]

i would rather be able to have luxuries in today's society such as internet, so, even though it is horrible, i would rather have a shitty-ass job i hate than live in the wilderness or live a nomad lifestyle

[magikarp]

It can be, it's not inherently. If you're desperate for a job (i.e., living paycheck to paycheck, even if you're making good money) people will take advantage of that, though.

[I mean, almost everything where you'd make decent money is morally suspect, but not necessarily unpleasant in a day-to-day sense.]

[UnicornLionWolf]

(07-25-2015 09:38 AM)MurkScribe Wrote:  To be honest one of the main arguements against unschooling is that these unschoolers need to learn the boundries in society and obey to their bosses. And one unschooler might reply with, but work is voluntary! And as for me, when confronted with this issue I respond with, well even though work itself isn't eniterly voluntary I would say it requires some amount of submission and obdience to the bosses, unschooling gives the child the courage and the capacity to think for themselves and have the ability to recognize illegitimate forms of authority or better yet authorities in general. Also It could be entirely possible for the child to move unto more autonomous forms of work, even though work itself isn't entirely voluntary and society itself could possibly be a very conservative christian fundamentalist society, that shouldn't justify for children to be made miserable, scolded, and punished for the molding to be obedient to that society.

Work is a necessity in order to live. However, the thing with work there are more jobs to choose from. Not the case for K-12 education, where if you can't home-school and can't afford private school, you're stuck with whatever.

[Alistoriv]

this is why we must overthrow the bourgeoisie amirite ladies

[Rule_BreakerXVIII]

(07-25-2015 01:25 PM)MurkScribe Wrote:  I find it angering when people say work is voluntary, It kind of angers me, though some people are less likely to feel stuck than other people, and some people found jobs that are engaging to them.

But such jobs EXIST!!! It's a gigantic misconception that cubicle-drone salary-work is the only kind of work that exists, or the only kind we can do...parents and society have been herding us into the cubicles for generations. Think about it: if cubicle drones were the only kinds of working people out there, the world would stop functioning within seconds.

We might not always be able to turn our passions into sources of income; but this is where creativity and adaptability come in.

Quote:But maybe you can avoid possibly the work related prison that binds and holds people. Or maybe this destruction is a mere illusion and maybe we have much more power then we think?

Yep. We do. The modern world chains and traps people intellectually; in earlier times those used to be actual, physical chains and jails.

[the Analogist]

I'm really interested to see what my kids gravitate to. I want to encourage farming, manual trades, or low level technician work just because these are easy ins and pay well without college. But they might hate all of those things.

I work for my state government now because its too late to start over for me, basically. What I found is actually quite interesting is browsing the US Bureau Of Labor Statistics. Apparnelty fixing windmills is the next big thing. All of the fastest growing jobs pay shit except nursing