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Animal Death
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TheEnigma Offline
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Post: #1
Animal Death

This has been nagging away at me for a while, and I don't know if this is a good spot for it, but whatever.
Today, I was in the car with my mother, who was driving me home from a softball game. Now, I am a weirdo with driving safety for this very reason, and just as I was about to say something about my mum not watching the road while she ways talking to me, she suddenly looked up and said, 'kitty, kitty."
Well, she didn't even try to brake or swerve (for goodness sake we were on one of the least-travelled country road) and the last thing I saw before the thud was those brilliant blue eyes looking up at me on that beautiful 'pointed' face in complete terror and confusion.
Guess what my mother said? "That's a dead cat. HOPE IT DIDN'T BREAK MY CAR."
I'm sorry, but when we got home, I went to my room and cried for about ten minutes. Then my dad said something, like he often does, about 'just killing the cats' as some sort of joke, but it made me feel worse.
I can never stand the unneeded death of animals. And I felt bad for whatever little kid would wake up and find their favourite cat dead. I've seen such so many times. The bus driver, my neighbour, and random strangers all hit cats. My mum hit our Keeshond last year while it was snowy, while I WAS IN THE CAR, and said, 'I didn't know there was a snow drift there,' which was immediately followed by her shrieks of pain.
So, people are always like, 'OMG some person was shot in his house in Minnesota, how terrible' and then not care about a dead pet, or 'I won't eat anything that ever had a face.'
Both I feel are unhealthy. While I do feel it is important to grieve over the death of our fellow human beings, we need to grieve over that of animals. But I feel that vegetarianism and several animal rights groups go farther than healthy, too. I respect my chickens' lives more because I know the pain it causes to put them in the killing cones and eventually our plate. And G-d killed the first animal, so he gave us the okay.
I feel there needs to be a happy-medium where the lives of humans and animals are respected more for WHAT they are than just THAT they are.
Any thoughts???
(This post was last modified: 05-21-2015 11:07 AM by TheEnigma.)
05-21-2015 11:05 AM
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brainiac3397 Offline
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Post: #2
Animal Death

I don't eat cats, so I wouldn't find killing them to be of any practical concern.

Some people are just absurdly anthropocentric.

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(06-14-2013 08:02 AM)Potato Wrote:  watch the fuq out, we've got an "intellectual" over here.

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05-21-2015 11:20 AM
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TheEnigma Offline
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Post: #3
Animal Death

It's just distressing that people are careless and don't give it a thought when an animal dies, at least in the terms of 'loss of life.' It might be, 'I lost my best producing cow' or whatnot. They breathe the same air, they have the same basic needs. They do not usually do well in isolation (depending upon the species). They are essential to our way life.
This actually kind of works for plants too. I dislike people just bleeding the living daylight out of plants just for their product. Take what is needed, but do not be wasteful, yah know?
05-21-2015 11:37 AM
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Sociopath Offline
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Post: #4
RE: Animal Death

(05-21-2015 11:05 AM)TheEnigma Wrote:  This has been nagging away at me for a while, and I don't know if this is a good spot for it, but whatever.
Today, I was in the car with my mother, who was driving me home from a softball game. Now, I am a weirdo with driving safety for this very reason, and just as I was about to say something about my mum not watching the road while she ways talking to me, she suddenly looked up and said, 'kitty, kitty."
Well, she didn't even try to brake or swerve (for goodness sake we were on one of the least-travelled country road) and the last thing I saw before the thud was those brilliant blue eyes looking up at me on that beautiful 'pointed' face in complete terror and confusion.
Guess what my mother said? "That's a dead cat. HOPE IT DIDN'T BREAK MY CAR."
I'm sorry, but when we got home, I went to my room and cried for about ten minutes. Then my dad said something, like he often does, about 'just killing the cats' as some sort of joke, but it made me feel worse.
I can never stand the unneeded death of animals. And I felt bad for whatever little kid would wake up and find their favourite cat dead. I've seen such so many times. The bus driver, my neighbour, and random strangers all hit cats. My mum hit our Keeshond last year while it was snowy, while I WAS IN THE CAR, and said, 'I didn't know there was a snow drift there,' which was immediately followed by her shrieks of pain.
So, people are always like, 'OMG some person was shot in his house in Minnesota, how terrible' and then not care about a dead pet, or 'I won't eat anything that ever had a face.'
Both I feel are unhealthy. While I do feel it is important to grieve over the death of our fellow human beings, we need to grieve over that of animals. But I feel that vegetarianism and several animal rights groups go farther than healthy, too. I respect my chickens' lives more because I know the pain it causes to put them in the killing cones and eventually our plate. And G-d killed the first animal, so he gave us the okay.
I feel there needs to be a happy-medium where the lives of humans and animals are respected more for WHAT they are than just THAT they are.
Any thoughts???

It sounds like your mom needs to have her license revoked.

I could spit venom on religion all day but I'll just give you the short version: I don't believe in a god and I don't think even if there was he'd be any authority to say what is and isn't okay.

As for helping animals...eh, sure, but some animals aren't worth helping. I'm talking about the assholes, usually the exclusive carnivores. Sure, save the puppies, kitties, and bunnies. But fuck the sharks. We could all do better off without em. The main train of thought now clouding conservationists is that "there's an animal here. We gotta protect it!" Let's sit back first and consider the actions of this; doesn't keeping these animals alive cost more lives of innocent animals who will be fed to them constantly? Why are we using resources to aid something that doesn't aid us? It's like throwing money down a bottomless pit. It's not just resources either, it's human resources as well: now that we've basically created a job market for (some) useless bystanders to go around saving (some) useless animals, when they could've gotten a REAL job instead and trained for experience in the real world doing something useful like being a doctor or a repairman. If the animals weren't being threatened they'd be out of a job.

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(This post was last modified: 05-21-2015 02:32 PM by Sociopath.)
05-21-2015 02:27 PM
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Aureate Offline
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Post: #5
RE: Animal Death

I think the animal* debate is more a matter of preference than it is of logic.

It makes perfect sense that evolution would train us to feel concern for other human beings. Disregard for the emotions of our fellow man led to anger and retaliation, while harmony among tribes resulted in higher productivity of the whole and thus the maintenance of the entire group's traits.

Empathy for animals should be in shorter supply, as neither the benefits of concern nor the disadvantages of unconcern were as pronounced. Animals lacked the capacity for focused reprisal in the face of wrongs and were poorly equipped to injure reasoning assailants. Furthermore, the ability to hunt animals and harvest plants with minimal disgust was a nutritional necessity. If we did not benefit from lamenting "animal death" in the past, we would not have developed to so. This is probably the reason for your noted discrepancy between human and animal treatment. It is also worth considering that, in order to exercise our extremely effective talents for discovery and exploration, we have grown generally to see more beauty in complex and mysterious systems than in simpler ones. As such, the uniquely multidimensional nature of our peers contains a fundamental allure.

As for your own allegedly uncommon feelings towards suffering animals, they may derive from a more intense or unusually inclusive empathy for your human counterparts. That is, you recognize in a variety of organisms the favorable human properties that were supposed to trigger empathy. It is also the case that plants and animals interact too primitively with their surroundings to lose your preexisting respect. While people can earn your dislike through a number of simple methods, the brute instincts of animals seem too arbitrary to constitute pressing reasons for aversion. You rightly fail to notice informed intent in the transgressions of animals, and so you do not blame a cat when it directs aggression towards you or your loved ones. Finally, myriad untraceable personal experiences with literature, media, and nature have bestowed upon you a totally distinct perspective that has formed some of the basis for your viewpoint.

That all makes sense, and you are wholly justified in your beliefs. But don't try to make this a debate of logic, wherein you contend that others can be swayed to your preferences with reasoning.

Quote:They breathe the same air, they have the same basic needs.

This attempts to convince opponents by analogy that animals are as deserving of empathy as humans, but I have clearly outlined the reasons we allocate empathy, and have demonstrated that the lion's share of our disproportional assignment towards humans is dependent upon clear events--not logical analysis.

To a limit, it does not greatly bother me to watch most varieties of life destroyed. Excepting humans, personal pets, and the various organisms I perceive as extraordinarily cute or interesting, the slaughter of organic beings just doesn't trigger my empathy. Cows and chickens--to name two examples you produced--are not among my exceptions, and no comparisons available to you can change that fact. This is because I did not make my selections logically. I never consciously cycled through all the species and compared their traits to humans', weighing each based on how "human" it rendered the creature. I did not ask myself whether they "breathe the same air" or "have the same basic needs". I was engineered to regard them as foreign, and if I was not, I would have been empathetic in the first place. How do you expect to convince someone to feel empathy where they do not already do so? It is one thing if you present new information--like a description of the specific mistreatment of chickens that might have been so severe as to trigger my outrage all along--but neither of our decisions were the result of logical errors, so how can statements of logic like yours challenge either opinion?

A quick example of a (hypothetical) analogous argument, for you to respond to if you desire:

"I mourn when computers are reduced to scrap metal. General reaction does not align with my own. This is saddening, and should be revised to recognize that computers are similar to us, and warrant similar regard. They are comprised of some of the same materials, are our closest peers in intellect, and are essential to our way of life. They deserve at least some concern."

You can try to dismantle this by arguing that my links between computers and humans are not as meaningful as the conscious awareness we share with animals, but what if I am so strangely developed that I care more for intellectual similarities than neurological similarities? What if this is just how I feel empathy? I can then ask why your inducers of grief are more important than mine, and you don't really have a reply. In short, the view cannot be proven incorrect, only atypical.

You cannot refute the computer argument, but I don't expect you to begin taking any greater care of your motherboard either. Your majority opinion that computers are expendable was the product of evolutionary indifference to complex machines (they did not exist to affect early man), and that another has asserted his development to the contrary should not be sufficient to overwhelm your own.

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*For the sake of simplicity, I excluded humans from the definition of the word "animal." I know that a human is classified as an animal.
05-21-2015 03:53 PM
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brainiac3397 Offline
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Post: #6
RE: Animal Death

We went from hunting from necessity to hunting into extinction cause the animal had nice fur or tusks you could make an expensive luxury item out of.

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(06-14-2013 08:02 AM)Potato Wrote:  watch the fuq out, we've got an "intellectual" over here.

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05-21-2015 11:34 PM
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TheEnigma Offline
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Post: #7
Animal Death

Quote:A quick example of a (hypothetical) analogous argument, for you to respond to if you desire:

"I mourn when computers are reduced to scrap metal. General reaction does not align with my own. This is saddening, and should be revised to recognize that computers are similar to us, and warrant similar regard. They are comprised of some of the same materials, are our closest peers in intellect, and are essential to our way of life. They deserve at least some concern."
I see where you are coming from.
Yet, do computers live? Do they feel pain? If I were to smash my computer with a hammer right now, it would do nothing in retaliation, except maybe throw sparks. But not because it cares. If I smash a bird to death with a tennis racket, which my mother actually did once, is it going to feel pain? Is it going to distress? Will it want to avoid the pain and do everything in its power to stop it? Of course, and plants will become distressed by them being munched on. I guess it could be said that I feel empathetic towards other living beings because I realize that if we weren't the most advanced, we would be subjected to the same things.
Is there any right/wrong answer? No. Absolutely not. I won't ever claim there is.
However, I feel apathy towards other life forms will only kill society from within, slowly working into apathy towards fellow humans, and then turning us back into nothing more than technologically advanced barbarians. Or something like that.
(This post was last modified: 05-26-2015 03:32 PM by TheEnigma.)
05-26-2015 03:32 PM
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TheEnigma Offline
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Post: #8
RE: Animal Death

(05-21-2015 11:34 PM)brainiac3397 Wrote:  We went from hunting from necessity to hunting into extinction cause the animal had nice fur or tusks you could make an expensive luxury item out of.

Society is too materialistic. I'm sorry to sound like I make a fuss out of things conceived as trivial in modern society but I could never go out with the purpose to kill even some dangerous leopard or something with the only goal being to sell a pelt for a ton of money. Most poachers, if not all, won't even do anything with the rest of the carcass, and that's just wasteful and disgusting. Every time I read about more of that just makes me nauseous.
05-26-2015 03:47 PM
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SoulRiser Offline
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Post: #9
Animal Death

I'm sorry, but if I was in the car with someone who hit a cat and then reacted like that, I'd .... I dunno. Either rage horribly at the person or tell them to let me out and I'll walk wherever. Probably go check on the cat. Fuck people like that. I don't care who they are... I don't want to know people like that.

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05-27-2015 07:46 AM
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TheEnigma Offline
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Post: #10
RE: Animal Death

(05-27-2015 07:46 AM)SoulRiser Wrote:  I'm sorry, but if I was in the car with someone who hit a cat and then reacted like that, I'd .... I dunno. Either rage horribly at the person or tell them to let me out and I'll walk wherever. Probably go check on the cat. Fuck people like that. I don't care who they are... I don't want to know people like that.

I actually wanted to ask her to stop the car so I could at least cry with the family and let them know. And to mourn for the cat and help them bury it or something. But last time I asked her to do something like that, she just LAUGHED and said, "It'll be fine." BAH!
I couldn't think of anything else to do, I was just in complete shock. Now today she goes on about how she hit two birds today while she takes me home from softball, almost in an amused sort of way. And my little sister LAUGHED and said that my mother should make it her goal to hit ten a day.
Excuse me, they have just as much of a right to live as us. Useless murder never brings us anywhere but hell.
05-27-2015 11:44 AM
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Post: #11
Animal Death

Quote:"I mourn when computers are reduced to scrap metal. General reaction does not align with my own. This is saddening, and should be revised to recognize that computers are similar to us, and warrant similar regard. They are comprised of some of the same materials, are our closest peers in intellect, and are essential to our way of life. They deserve at least some concern."

PC's aren't beings.

EDIT: wrong word, sorry. English isn't my native language.
(This post was last modified: 06-07-2015 07:14 AM by sswbm.)
06-06-2015 07:50 PM
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RE: Animal Death

Says u. Wait till Skynet...

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(06-14-2013 08:02 AM)Potato Wrote:  watch the fuq out, we've got an "intellectual" over here.

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