Palestine/Israel

[ComradeDaryl]

http://scgnews.com/the-gaza-bombardment-...being-told

I wonder what does everyone here on School-Survival think about the Palestine/Israel issue? I personally believe Israel should be a single state in which both Palestinian Arabs and Jews alike can live together. In the end, they're both human beings anyway, and anybody should be able to live wherever they want on this planet.

[brainiac3397]

I don't care. Just dump the Zionists psychos out and things should improve.

[ComradeDaryl]

(08-30-2015 08:48 AM)brainiac3397 Wrote:  I don't care. Just dump the Zionists psychos out and things should improve.

I'd do the same thing with nativists everywhere on the planet as well, since anyone should be able to live anywhere regardless of gender, ancestry, skin/hair/eye color, ethnicity, etc. Skin colour anyway is the result of weather/climate/geography.

[Ky]

(08-30-2015 08:48 AM)brainiac3397 Wrote:  I don't care. Just dump the Zionists psychos out and things should improve.

How woefully naive.

The Israelis and the Palestinians have something in common - the land belonged to them once (seeing as it is their ancestral home), and the intervention of foreign powers caused that to no longer be the case. Now both Israelis and Palestinians are laying claim to it again...

...but the Israelis have the firepower (and precedent) to back it up. The Palestinians do not.

There are more differences than just these:

The Israelis returned to escape persecution in Europe and suffered persecution at the hands of their new neighbors instead. In contrast, the only significant persecution Palestinians have endured - ever, at any time - is that inflicted by their countrymen and their negligent kinsmen across the borders.

The country of Israel is backed by the United States and, indeed, much of the civilized world - it does, after all, have an established government. The hypothetical of Palestine, on the other hand, is poorly represented - the closest thing they have to leadership now is Hamas, and even then, they're being taken advantage of by these militant monsters.

Israel offered a deal that would have allowed for a two-state solution, and a generous one at that. The Palestinians refused. It's unlikely that we'll ever see a return to the "pre-1967 borders" - that is not only a consequence of Palestinian refusal, but a demonstration of Israel's standing today: They won every conflict that would have torn them from their country; if nothing else, their military might ensures their claim to the land.

So what does this mean?

There's no mistaking it - the Palestinians are being treated unfairly. Hamas is using them as fodder for their terrorist acts. Israel is treating them as second-class citizens, particularly in cases where Hamas is involved. And their Arab neighbors are refusing all refugees quarter, and have been since the 60's. They can neither take the land for themselves nor go anywhere else, no matter what they do.

That's why coming to an understanding is so important. That's why the international community is implicitly supporting a two-state solution. Cooperation between Israelis and Palestinians is the best hope for all parties involved to breathe a little easier, and that cannot happen without mutual tolerance.

Zionism is defined as the belief that the Jews should have their own nation - since the late 40's, Israel has been that nation, and it has demonstrated time and time again that it has earned its place on the world map. That's not such a "psycho" thing to ask for; furthermore, a two-state solution wouldn't change this anyway.

Just be aware that "dumping out" what is ranked by the GFP as the world's eleventh-strongest military power might not be so easy as it sounds... particularly since they'd be backed by number one if push were to come to shove.

(As for who should be able to live in Israel, or Israel/Palestine, or Isralestine, or whatever the hell you want to call it, ComradeDaryl put it best: Anyone. Some, however, choose to cling to notions of nationalism, and for the time being such people have the right to it.)

[brainiac3397]

Zionism is practically a racist ideology that considers Jews superior and claims the "homeland" is their's because God promised so. There will never be an understanding. Not until one side gets wiped out in some manner, either militarily or culturally.

[Ky]

(09-01-2015 06:15 AM)brainiac3397 Wrote:  Zionism is practically a racist ideology that considers Jews superior and claims the "homeland" is their's because God promised so. There will never be an understanding. Not until one side gets wiped out in some manner, either militarily or culturally.

That's an interesting perspective, but it's built on the premise that Zionism is inherently racist. That is not so.

Zionism - by its very definition - is a political movement advocating the reestablishment of the Jewish homeland. In practice, this homeland is Israel - a state best described in proper context. The background is as follows:

Before World War I, the land was appropriated by many empires, ranging from the Assyrians to the Romans to the Ottomans - the Jews, the original inhabitants, were dispersed from it long ago. Zionism emerged as a result: The forerunners of this movement desired an escape from antisemitism and a gathering of the Jews to their homeland of Palestine.

The establishment of Palestine - referred to as Mandatory Palestine as a result of the League of Nations' British Mandate for Palestine, which granted the British Empire (in other words, the former holdings of the United Kingdom) control of the region - in 1920 was a step in the direction of Zionism, but little came of it at that time. Granted, many of the Arabs called it Palestine, but that was not the region's traditional name: others called it Eretz Yisrael. Despite many debates regarding the governance of the region, it was a British-occupied territory first and foremost... hardly anything more than the Empire's Arabian holdings, despite ostensibly being influenced primarily by Jewish culture.

The Holocaust is undoubtedly what spurred people to action and caused this to change. Granted, the Israelites today are often accused of ethnic cleansing, so it's remarkably easy to forget that they were at multiple points the victims thereof themselves. Nazi Germany's attempted extermination of the Jewish people inspired many of them to move. As evidenced by the strong support of a new international body - the United Nations - they were free to settle and form their own state in 1948. Thus concludes the background.

Modern Zionism could refer to a great many things: The continued existence of the State of Israel, continued support for such a state (even by non-Jews), calls for an end to antisemitism, or even a religious variation which demands Jews be a majority within their own land. With the possible exception of that last one, none of these concepts are racist, suggestive of Jewish superiority, or baseless beyond appeals to a higher power.

The State of Israel exists because the Jews sought to return to the land from which they were exiled, thus escaping the rampant persecution and discrimination they had to endure in the past. That has little, if anything, to do with God's promises and everything to do with a people who were once marginalized and engaged in the diplomatic endeavors of the international community to return to their ancestral home. Furthermore, the current leadership of that State has demonstrated support for the idea of a two-state solution which would allow for both Israel and Palestine to exist without members of either side oppressing the other. This much can be discerned from Benjamin Netanyahu's 2009 address after his victory in the elections.

Granted, some use Zionism as a shield for their beliefs of supremacy or even the imperialistic expansion of the State of Israel to its ancient borders; however, I've more often seen people use Anti-Zionism as a means of criticizing the Jewish state in a manner that would be regarded as highly antisemitic otherwise. The problem isn't the ideology itself, but how people promote, oppose, and respond to it.

I strongly disagree that any one side needs to be wiped out, and I believe an understanding is possible without causing another exodus. Neither Israelis nor Palestinians deserve the persecution they've endured in the past and are being challenged by in the present.

[brainiac3397]

You are aware that Israel is the only country in modern times to have employed resettlement policies against another group since the era of imperialism?

[Ky]

(09-01-2015 10:04 AM)brainiac3397 Wrote:  You are aware that Israel is the only country in modern times to have employed resettlement policies against another group since the era of imperialism?

I tend not to be aware of things that aren't true.

Unless you mean "the only country in modern times to have employed resettlement policies against another group within its own borders since the era of imperialism", in which case you might be correct.

But as the 1948 Arab-Israeli War - and all subsequent wars on Israeli soil - demonstrates, every member nation of the Arab League had the same resettlement goal in mind, and it sounded a bit like this: Don't let the Jews keep their state. Kick them out. Make them move somewhere else. Mecca and Medina aren't enough for us. We want it all, including Jerusalem, and we're not sharing it with the kykes.

[brainiac3397]

I didnt realize the West Bank was in Israel.

[Ky]

(09-01-2015 12:05 PM)brainiac3397 Wrote:  I didnt realize the West Bank was in Israel.

Did I say it was?

Thing is, it's more or less under Israeli control and it's not a nation in its own right (though it would no doubt be the heartland of a Palestinian-nation-to-be-created), so, yeah, it would be safe to say it's in Israel even if it isn't considered a part of Israel proper.

[brainiac3397]

I think the "inside Israel" arguement is moot if the international commu ity considers Israeli settlements there to be illegal since the West Bank has drawn borders that indicate it doesnt belong to Israel.

Palestine exists. They got a government and everything. The fact Israel negotiates with them on an official level seems to imply this. Hence letting settlers occupy territory that isnt theirs jn hopes of forcing out the inhabitants in a ploy to extend the borders is not exactly looked kindly upon.

Hell, its illegal under Israeli law. Just because they arent willing to always enforce doesnt suddenly make it legal.

[Missile]

Demanding that the Israelis leave the land is not really going to work.

They've firmly established thierselves on that strip of land, and they are not going to leave it anytime soon.

[brainiac3397]

They'll either need to have a hybrid government that allows for equal representation among both sides(and likely gives the Palestinians an autonomous region). I'd personally have the new country renamed "Republic of Semitic States" or something, removing the reference to either Palestine or Israel(though these names would be reserved to the specific autonomous regions under the overall government).

Of course this means that the Palestinians would have their land "returned" while not actually getting total authority as they'd still be subject to a greater power which they equally participate in with Israeli state.

Alas, such logic wouldn't really work due to the stronghold of radicals on both sides clamoring for the most extreme of reforms without agreeing to be flexible. The only real solution to the situation there isn't a single Israel or a two-state, the solution is a single government with two autonomous states underneath with(giving each side legal recourse through the bigger government). Such an action would require lots of negotiating and level-headed diplomats from both sides(something that is somewhat lacking).

The populace will also have to be persuaded that it's a good idea. Decades of conflict have pretty much left both side vehemently against each other no matter what.

[Sainika]

Israel has no right to exist. It was established illegally, and it exists illegally. Zionist terrorist groups such as Irgun now make up a large part of the IDF.

[brainiac3397]

And Hamas makes up a large part of Palestine.

Its ironic but both sides are basically terrorist states.

[Sainika]

(02-11-2016 11:20 AM)brainiac3397 Wrote:  And Hamas makes up a large part of Palestine.

Its ironic but both sides are basically terrorist states.

Was Palestine a terrorist state before Israel was created? No. Hamas is still here because Gaza is being bombed on a daily basis for little reason. Oh, 2 israelis died? Let's kill 200 Palestinians in return. So Hamas is like "Hey, side with us and we'll protect you." it's like a Mob thing you know?

inb4 Marsayate is Stoned

[brainiac3397]

Palestine was never a state. Palestine is nothing more than the name for a geographic region named by the Romans and occupied by a variety of groups till it's final occupation as British territory and finally independence, at which point the two major groups in the region could not come to a conclusion on what would exist there since both Jews and Muslims sought their independence in the same region, but refused to cooperate.

Jews won because they didn't rely as much on outside support as the Arabs had, so when Arab support waned from the UK once the Brits just gave up on the territory, the Jews were better armed and better trained.

I don't argue topics on a moral basis. Geopolitcs is amoral. It's all about power, and in the end man will be as good or as evil as necessary to achieve it. Very few wars are fought on a moral basis, and more of them were in the past than in the present.

[Alistoriv]

Israel has no right to exist

[brainiac3397]

(02-15-2016 09:25 AM)Alistoriv Wrote:  Israel has no right to exist

Mr.Mao begs to differ.

[Alistoriv]

(02-15-2016 01:26 PM)brainiac3397 Wrote:  

(02-15-2016 09:25 AM)Alistoriv Wrote:  Israel has no right to exist

Mr.Mao begs to differ.

[citation needed]

[brainiac3397]

(02-15-2016 02:43 PM)Alistoriv Wrote:  

(02-15-2016 01:26 PM)brainiac3397 Wrote:  

(02-15-2016 09:25 AM)Alistoriv Wrote:  Israel has no right to exist

Mr.Mao begs to differ.

[citation needed]

[thewake]

I don't care with Israel and Palestine, I just don't want to be involved in it.