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August 2001 - June 2017

The School Survival Forums are permanently retired. If you need help with quitting school, unsupportive parents or anything else, there is a list of resources on the Help Page.

If you want to write about your experiences in school, you can write on our blog.

To everyone who joined these forums at some point, and got discouraged by the negativity and left after a while (or even got literally scared off): I'm sorry.

I wasn't good enough at encouraging people to be kinder, and removing people who refuse to be kind. Encouraging people is hard, and removing people creates conflict, and I hate conflict... so that's why I wasn't better at it.

I was a very, very sensitive teen. The atmosphere of this forum as it is now, if it had existed in 1996, would probably have upset me far more than it would have helped.

I can handle quite a lot of negativity and even abuse now, but that isn't the point. I want to help people. I want to help the people who need it the most, and I want to help people like the 1996 version of me.

I'm still figuring out the best way to do that, but as it is now, these forums are doing more harm than good, and I can't keep running them.

Thank you to the few people who have tried to understand my point of view so far. I really, really appreciate you guys. You are beautiful people.

Everyone else: If after everything I've said so far, you still don't understand my motivations, I think it's unlikely that you will. We're just too different. Maybe someday in the future it might make sense, but until then, there's no point in arguing about it. I don't have the time or the energy for arguing anymore. I will focus my time and energy on people who support me, and those who need help.

-SoulRiser

The forums are mostly read-only and are in a maintenance/testing phase, before being permanently archived. Please use this time to get the contact details of people you'd like to keep in touch with. My contact details are here.

Please do not make a mirror copy of the forums in their current state - things will still change, and some people have requested to be able to edit or delete some of their personal info.


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I'm a Parent...
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casperthegoth Offline
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I'm a Parent...

... well. A step parent of a child who enjoys your forums here.

Initially, the approach that my step-son has been taking has been quite aggressively anti-school. I don't lack in understanding of this. I have tried to relay to him my own negative experiences with school. His anger and frustration is very strong and it affects us all in my house. My first reaction - since this site is a source of a lot of what he is reading - was to basically hate this place. I suppose that is natural.

I have, however, decided to take another approach. I have thought a good bit about all and just decided that maybe I should join and become a participant.

I am posting this in School Talk, because this what I really want to do - talk about school. I *do* understand the negatives in our currently public education system in the US. Perhaps not all of them, and I welcome your sincere education of me on the matters at hand. I must admit that I am generally "pro-school" as a general concept. I am also pro-public education. I will mention more on this later.

I am concerned about some concepts that he has been floating around our house, and I want to get to the bottom of them and see if I can resolve a way to either agree with them, or disagree with them.

*School as Slavery - OK, the real reason I started off by hating this place. I take sincere issue with this concept. All my step-son has provided is meaningless argument without any logic. This sounds harsh, but I always listen to the words he says and evaluate them for their worth. His commentary is passionate, but it lacks in fact. So, how is school slavery? I do understand that the effort he puts forth reflects upon the performance of his teachers - but this is a concept from before schooling. This is more, to me, the idea of apprenticeship. One learns the life long tools to accomplish success in a trade. A person who has skill must impart that skill upon a person without the skill. This, of course happens all the time. The lack of compensation isn't even really what slavery, at its root is. My step-son is *not* treated as property, he is treated as a participant. This applies to our house at least. This means he has expectations and reward, when he experiences failure - we all do. When he earns success we all are thankful. This is how the school system operates in my mind. But truly, the idea of School as Slavery is poisonous to me (and I believe to your general cause) because it takes a base, emotionally charged term and applies it generally. The idea that one must gain knowledge - via the logic that he at least presents - will always be slavery. Homeschooling, Unschooling, Private Schooling.... all the alternatives suggested become slavery. Why? Because each of them involve an uncompensated learner.

*School is Bad - this, as the main content of the site says in very clear words, is not true. School is an institution, yes, and with that come a series of pros and cons. A long and deep list that may even be unfathomable. But as much as school is *bad* for one person, it is good for another. I take strong issue with my step-son attempting to convert people who enjoy and gain from the school system something that pleases them. My second son is a great example of how one person's negativity towards school can result in another person's. My second son regards my step-son as an idol. He hears that "School sucks" and wonders why. He is told by my step-son that it is a bad place, without context, and becomes nervous. Once he gets to school - he loves it and learns a lot. I also know that my step-son is attempting to "unbrainwash" his friends who enjoy school. I don't know that this general concept came from your group - truth be told, but I think that it is dangerous to force opinions on those who disagree (which resulted in my resolution to participate in this conversation and learn from you). Ultimately, school has bad things about it - all schooling and all alternatives to schooling will have this! No system is perfect! But school is not bad because for all the successful dropouts, there are also successful stayins.

*Sorely missing Opportunity Costs - So the idea above, that you must sacrifice something to gain something else is essentially reflected in the opportunity cost. I feel strongly that some of the positives of public school are not hitting home well as this site seems to be providing a lot of negativity for my step-son. For instance, if he unschools, then he loses the chance to play in marching band during a College Bowl Game in Atlanta this year. For instance, he benefits greatly from social interaction for personal reasons - I will not go into details, but this goes beyond just making friends, or what most parents might be concerned about. Even at the most basic level - he gets away from his parents for the day! Biggrin

*School "Survival" - In all, I think that school survival, as a conceptual endeavor is not what this site has taken upon itself. Survival of any type commits oneself to some objective. Surviving life is about completing it until the end, how then is surviving school about trying alternatives. Surviving life is not about alternatives, it is about using the tools at your disposal to complete the journey. This is another reason I have joined - my ONLY goal is to help my step-son have a complete journey.


OK - so, that is a good start! I welcome any comments at all! I enjoy engaging in intelligent conversation and I am open to alternate viewpoints to those I personally feel. I do not judge and I do not dismiss without considering anything presented in a reasonably thoughtful, sincere and mature fashion!!

Oh, yes - why am I "pro-school"? Because it worked for me. It worked for my friends. It worked for my friends of friends. The only person that I know that did not work (ie, who graduated school and then subsequently failed) is a friend of mine - it is a sad story, in a way...

Why am I "pro-public school" - I believe that affording *any* educational experience comes at immense cost to someone - be it the most generous of parents who are giving up their chance for income to be your homeschooler to the infrastructure and teachers in the giant buildings - nothing is free. The public school system takes our money to afford the equal opportunity for the most people. The idea of testing attempts to ensure that our society's committed investment in the future of the world is not in vain. Is all of this done perfectly? Absolutely not! Is some of it OK? Absolutely! Because it is public schooling can we work together to bring about change? Absolutely! Can that be done on a home school level for the unified betterment of all society - only on a case-by-case basis.

Anyway... I hope for some response, I look forward to it! Have a great evening!
04-08-2015 03:56 PM
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TheCancer Offline
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RE: I'm a Parent...

" So, how is school slavery? "

I think a reasonable definition of slavery is the condition of being forced to do work without compensation. School is compulsory and students are not compensated.

If you want to be a different fish, you've got to jump out of the school.


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04-08-2015 06:37 PM
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TheCancer Offline
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RE: I'm a Parent...

"But as much as school is *bad* for one person, it is good for another."

This is why school shouldn't be compulsory. I take a strong position that public education should be completely abolished but I have found that I am very much in the minority with that position, even here. I do think most posters here will agree with me that school shouldn't be forced on your step son, who despises it, against his will.

If you want to be a different fish, you've got to jump out of the school.


Captain Beefheart
04-08-2015 06:47 PM
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lisafromjackson Offline
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Post: #4
I'm a Parent...

Thank you so much for your message. I'm also a parent -- I have two teens in high school.

I'm going to read carefully, and think about it and respond!

Dialogue On Education ... where students and adults meet to hash out issues related to school.
04-08-2015 11:35 PM
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lisafromjackson Offline
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Post: #5
I'm a Parent...

First: I honestly can't say that School Survival, as a site, espouses a particular viewpoint that "school is slavery". I haven't searched through all of the articles here; I am active on this site because of the reasons students seek it out.

If a student decides to "proselytize" an anti-school belief, that may or may not be because he is being in some way influenced by the site. It may be the result of individual or group conversations he's having with other young people here.

If mistaken notions are being passionately adopted by kids who hate school, I can only think of one cure, and that is something I am passionate about myself: adults need to listen.

And when we listen, we need to try not to respond argumentatively, but acknowledging the truth of their feelings.

There may be students who love school and benefit by it, and we can get into a discussion sometime about the pros and cons of THAT (my son has thrived in school because he learned early on to "take what he needs and leave the rest," with an awareness that there is a group of kids who do not do well, and a group of kids who do well and succeed. He believes, as I do, that school as it is produces a caste system: some reach the top, and some simply can't. It's not a system of equity.)

But there are kids who are genuinely suffering. As adults we need to respond to that.

That's my first thought! More to come.

Dialogue On Education ... where students and adults meet to hash out issues related to school.
(This post was last modified: 04-08-2015 11:56 PM by lisafromjackson.)
04-08-2015 11:45 PM
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lisafromjackson Offline
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Post: #6
I'm a Parent...

I don't mean to deny that a site for kids who hate school will not become a breeding ground for anti-establishment viewpoints that will get pushed to an extreme. It will. But where is this coming from? Why are these ideas so attractive to students who hate school? It's not coming from nowhere. The thing is, for each individual here, there is a solution, if parents will listen to them.

Dialogue On Education ... where students and adults meet to hash out issues related to school.
04-08-2015 11:54 PM
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brainiac3397 Offline
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RE: I'm a Parent...

In regard to the marching band example, why must people be forced to be part of the school to be part of the band? Why not just pay whatever dues required and participate in band? I mean people in Orchestras arent often from the region said orchestra is named after. You dont have to be a Berliner to playin Berlin orchestra.

While I hold a stance of supporting the concept of compulsory education, I believe the current system is far too bloated and inefficient. My ideas involve significantly trimming down where the government is involved, and leaving room for personal interests.

I think you misunderstand testing. While the propaganda talks about "protecting investment",what benefit does this investment have when you're taught to take tests? How many tests have you taken as an adult? Does your boss give you a multiple choice test and an essay every week? Do you dedicate a week spending all day testing on your company history, policies, and practices?

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(06-14-2013 08:02 AM)Potato Wrote:  watch the fuq out, we've got an "intellectual" over here.

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04-09-2015 12:05 AM
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casperthegoth Offline
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RE: I'm a Parent...

(04-08-2015 06:37 PM)TheCancer Wrote:  " So, how is school slavery? "

I think a reasonable definition of slavery is the condition of being forced to do work without compensation. School is compulsory and students are not compensated.

I think that is a pretty gross understatement and misrepresentation of slavery. Slavery is the denial of humanity to a human. Working without compensation can take many many forms including apprenticeship (as noted before), internship and even volunteerism.

Being a slave is about being owned - like the school system or not, it's intent is to grow you to be the opposite. It fails its rather lofty goals for some people, but it is very wrong to call it slavery.

There is another component to slavery other than the slave, it is the owner, as you can see. It is essential to the concept and it is absent here. The only possible argument would be that the master is society, and that is not true - people who succeed in school have the equal ability (however spartan) to withdraw from society as those who did not attend school.

(04-08-2015 06:47 PM)TheCancer Wrote:  "But as much as school is *bad* for one person, it is good for another."

This is why school shouldn't be compulsory. I take a strong position that public education should be completely abolished but I have found that I am very much in the minority with that position, even here. I do think most posters here will agree with me that school shouldn't be forced on your step son, who despises it, against his will.

You have a very radical opinion. I am interested in your background that led up to this feeling? The idea you have is so succinct in its ability to be stated, I find it hard to respond to it. It isn't that I don't want to, but a response may be easier with more conceptualizing about what you see society would be like without it in place.
(This post was last modified: 04-09-2015 12:38 AM by casperthegoth.)
04-09-2015 12:34 AM
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casperthegoth Offline
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RE: I'm a Parent...

(04-08-2015 11:45 PM)lisafromjackson Wrote:  But there are kids who are genuinely suffering. As adults we need to respond to that.

That's my first thought! More to come.

I am trimming your quote a little. I understand that the school as slavery thought is not something instrumental to the concept of the site. But I do feel a little justified in its inclusion because the first response was directly related to that. It is clearly an opinion held on the forums by some... unfortunately with forums, discussion becomes content.

On the other hand, this is a benefit as well, as it does leave our responses available for reference of others too. This and the rest of your response is why I joined.

When my son begins any of these conversations it is always out of rage, which is a separate issue. His inclination to yell is immediate. I can try to participate calmly, but my voice is buried under his immediately, so I must raise mine just to be heard. I also don't want to just ignore these important conversations.

I am here so we can't yell. I wish there was a better way - but he knows this post. He may be in the responses already. I know his user, and he knows that I do. I am going for full transparency in an environment that is collaborative from his impression. I don't mind being in the minority. I am a life long non-conformist. I have stood in the face of ridicule and judgement for my entire life. Being the dissenting voice here (ie, the voice that does not conform to the consensus of the site) gives him some other people to help his perspective as well.

Again, transparency... I am listening to everything, I have my own ideas that can be changed when presented with good information. I am here for the conversation. I am here to meet the people and encounter the viewpoints... but I am mostly here for my son.
04-09-2015 12:50 AM
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casperthegoth Offline
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RE: I'm a Parent...

(04-09-2015 12:05 AM)brainiac3397 Wrote:  In regard to the marching band example, why must people be forced to be part of the school to be part of the band? Why not just pay whatever dues required and participate in band? I mean people in Orchestras arent often from the region said orchestra is named after. You dont have to be a Berliner to playin Berlin orchestra.

I don't really have a problem with that idea on a whole. I don't think that you should march as XXXX High School if you don't go to the school, though. It is a little different for the professional music industry as the name represents the entities home - when a High School is named, it is a bit more specific.

Again, I don't generally disagree - but this is a specific example too, and I must say I don't see anyone making the changes needed to allow for this in the next five years for the sake of my step-son.

(04-09-2015 12:05 AM)brainiac3397 Wrote:  While I hold a stance of supporting the concept of compulsory education, I believe the current system is far too bloated and inefficient. My ideas involve significantly trimming down where the government is involved, and leaving room for personal interests.

I am pretty liberal. But also a bit anarchistic in my own way. I *believe* in government providing education to those that want it - I believe in that through college. I also believe you are entitled to live a healthy life. But just as with our Obamacare, I also believe that bureaucracy gets the better of government intent and it does become bloated and inefficient. I don't think this is a ultimate consequence of all government, but I think it is what we are working with in America. I would argue for many changes in the school system, but I don't disbelieve in its vitality. I believe in finding effective options for others, but I don't believe that should be at the sacrifice of the very significant number of users that truly benefit from the system.

(04-09-2015 12:05 AM)brainiac3397 Wrote:  I think you misunderstand testing. While the propaganda talks about "protecting investment",what benefit does this investment have when you're taught to take tests? How many tests have you taken as an adult? Does your boss give you a multiple choice test and an essay every week? Do you dedicate a week spending all day testing on your company history, policies, and practices?

It is interesting. A component of my job is training. It is far from the only thing I do, but it is a part of it. I do not institute testing as a part of the training for some specific reasons. I don't think they generally apply.

Another part is that I am Service Manager. So I essentially have essay questions and multiple choice questions in response to customer tests every day. I also have spoken word tests and more. I strongly believe that I can easily answer yes to any question relating to how my job is a world of tests - and that many people's jobs are as well. But, I am willing to hear your response before continuing!

I do study all of that about my very small company. I do it with the intention of being available when the owner is done. This is the test that is yet to come, and it may not be
04-09-2015 01:03 AM
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MurkScribe Away
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I'm a Parent...

First off, I'm a glad a parent is here on school survival forums, it's a sign of a growing expansive demographic and a sign of awareness about the system? Well you wrote something long and reasonable for a parent to think, because that is how my parent's feel as well, except I'm starting to change their minds. I am also very pro-public school, I believe there should be a utility and should be available for all, including universities and higher education. Well I really can't convince you of anything, but what I can say speaking from the perspective of a student is school sucks, I hate it because my interest and desires are being pushed out for this pre-digested curriculum thought by the higher ups who said this is needed to prepare me for life, even though I am wanting and trying to gain and understand the world around me through exploration of my own environment, testing out the objects and finding a connection between them, my own curiosity is being stamped out in place of me sitting down what to do where to go where I can sit how I'm supposed to behave, the social hierarchy at school where I'm looked down upon because I don't act dominant, aggressive, and insensitive and I refuse to comply with the authorities. And later in life me being told what to do where to sit where i cant sit, how to behave and me dealing with the social hierarchy except I have to go to that place in order for me to eat, have a bed, shelter, water, and a shower. Except If I go to some workplace that's democratic and cooperative, which I will likely go to instead. I'm just pretty much just rambling right now, but this is all soul draining and is stunting my emotional growth a.k.a being a good person. The current system that were living under is soul draining, isolating, and leads to a population of manageable vegetables waiting to be sorted and molded deemed by small interest groups. Where was I going with this? Pff I don't know, but school yes it sucks, because of all those reasons. Do I agree that our schools should be a investment towards a generation of thinkers, philosophers, artist, and writers? yes. But I do believe our education system should be made and guided form the people, not any elite higher ups.

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04-09-2015 01:36 AM
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brainiac3397 Offline
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I'm a Parent...

The fundemental difference is that you apply the data gathered from your testing for business improvement. The US government on the other hand just decides who gets money. In this scenario, it would be as if the answers of your customers determined the money you were paid. Obviously this can create a strong incentive to lie and cheat.

I'd understand if testing was used for data, and I support testing for data, but do you really think they're doing it for data when you not only have classroom tests, but state tests, and federal tests(not federal per se since I just mean things like SAT/ACT which are equally applied on a national scale)? Isn't it a bit odd that the "solution" to low test scores has been MORE testing? And isn't it odd that low scores means LESS money.

In fact the whole fuck-up started with Bush's No Child Left Behind, and continued with Obama's Race To The Top. Testing was only one of the mentioned methods to reforming the American education system, but it's become so skewed that people now use it as the MAIN method to determining educational quality and teacher effectiveness.

As far as I care in regard to bands and stuff, those are "EXTRACURRICULAR". The fact it is as such in my opinion means that it should not necessarily hold direct relation to the school beyond being some representative faction of that school. Would I not still be part of that school by choosing to be part of it's band? If I'm in that neighborhood/district/county/state and my taxes are being utilized, does this not give me(and my kids) the right to have a choice in at least their extracurricular activities BEYOND what their own school of attendance gives.

I should note that when I mean trim, I'm not talking about powers of government. I'm actually quite the statist. What I meant to say is that there is government involvement(thus "upper-power") in areas where it is unnecessary(where "lower-power" is responsible). I'm basically saying there's too much micromanaging by authority that is literally incapable of determining the most practical solution simply because it has no direct connection with the community being directly impacted.

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04-09-2015 01:48 AM
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RE: I'm a Parent...

School is bad for the following

1. It is mandatory and you have no say in the manner, you have no choice, and refusal to go results in harsh punishment, making it based on fear and extremely disrespectful to our choices. Adults quit jobs they hate, but not us children, we are the inferior, we must suffer.

2. A lack of freedom, you are treated as inferior, you cannot go to the bathroom unless you ask (if they say you can go), you cannot eat unless it is time, you cannot leave unless they say so, most of the time having fun is not allowed,
You must stay within the confinements of this prison like place until they release you.

3. Subject to torment, abuse and humiliation: Too many parents lost their kids to bullying, one may argue that it is because the parents of the bullies were not good parents, but the frustration of going to school could cause people to take it out on each other through violence, physical, emotional, mental and verbal. Even adults do it! Teachers are also known to humiliate their students through yelling at them, calling their homes, and even hitting them. This makes it more miserable.

4. Zero tolerance, It shows a fear of students, I don't really need to explain this one, every member here should already know. Have you watched the war on kids?

5. No one can deny that much of what school has taught them is being used and earning them great almost perfect success in their working life. Most of us have forgotten half or even more of the stuff they teach us in school. Take my grandmother for example, she can barely spell or use math, but it was taught to her. She often has to ask me for help, but even my memory of math is fading.

6. Homework, after school we should finally be able to kick back and relax or finally be able to do something we actually like, but nope, school has followed us home! Sometimes in large quantities. We already have a small amount of time in our home before we go back to that dead blasted building, but homework just eats away at that time and we are stuck with more stress, refusal to do it has consequences.

7. School fails to teach what should be taught, like the importance of kindness and good will (but how can it be taught when it is denied?) It fails to teach us to think for ourselves, which is one of the most important things in life.

8. Friendship and romance is a crime at school: No talking to our friends, no hanging out with our sweethearts, affection can result in being scolded, and in some more severe cases, detention, suspension, or expulsion!

9. Our childhood is stolen from us: Childhood is probably more important than adulthood because that is where we begin to create and mold ourselves into great human beings. Childhood is supposed to be full of laughter, fun, exploration and curiosity, but school takes much of that away all the way to adulthood, our innocence is destroyed. I wonder how many people wish they could just reverse the clock and be children again.

10. That annoying bell: We barely have time to do the work!

11. School teaches that true learning is based on memorization, no it is not.
We are supposed to figure it out completely and perfectly with an open mind, and
constantly use our common sense to really learn.

12. School was modeled after the Prussian institution, the goal was to whip the sheep into the flock, to make obedient robots out of children through training and taking them from their parents. So school is about obedience, fear, punishment, submission, authoritarianism.

13. We all get taught the same thing at the same place at the same time, our minds operate differently, things would work out better if we were all taught individually or put into places that fit our mindset.

14. Very intelligent people hated school, take Thomas Edison who invented the light bulb, he was very anti school. Albert Einstein hated school with an intense vehement passion, "Education is something that remains after one has forgotten everything he learned at school." That is one of his famous lines, he got Ds in school and dropped out too, http://www.school-survival.net/successful_dropouts.php . but
yet, he is one of the most clever, most wise and most intelligent persons that ever live. If school didn't help him, he must have helped himself. You should click on quotes about school on the homepage http://www.school-survival.net/quotes.php 15. It brainwashes people! Our Parents especially! They think it's good, if their children fail to learn well they hurt them, school is more important than the happiness of the child. I know most parents care for their kids and want what is best for them but can't we get what is best for us and still be happy? My grandmother sees me as only lovable if I perform well for her in school.
Someone complained here that they were hurt, yet their parents ignored that
" Get well soon, because you got work to do" What the?????? I don't mean to show you any disrespect here but the fact that you are convinced that school is good, means that you have been successfully brainwashed like the majority of people.

16. It is boring, boredom can be destructive and even devastating, people kill themselves because they are bored, people's mental health decline because they are bored, serial killers could be killing because they are bored, internet trolls usually troll because they are bored, boredom can cause bullying, boredom can cause the end of a friendship or romance.

There are more reasons why school sucks.

Final thoughts with school apologists

"But Cianna without school how would we learn how to read and write?!"

How do you think? If school was created and people are taught how to read and write, this would strongly imply that reading and writing existed before school, school is not your savior.

"But Cianna without school how will we have friends?"

Uh Duh, get out and make some friends, there is something called society.

"But Cianna my child likes school!"

He won't for long.

"But Cianna how do you think humans became so smart?"

You see the sad fact of life is that most people never take the time to question things, like how does this work, how does that work and why are things the way they are? No amount of grades will ever measure intelligence. http://www.naturalchild.org/jan_hunt/grades.html Is school really trying to make us intelligent or are we deliberately being dumbed down until we no longer question? If you don't question things, you lose common sense and wisdom,
Common sense really is uncommon. I always question things, school, money, religion, philosophy, etc. Many people do come out of school and get a job, good for them, but why is society so messed up than? Why aren't we using the knowledge from school to fix things up and make a better world, how come only few people question things? Atheists question religion, antiromantics question romance, Scientists question the world, these people are intelligent because they are learners and examiners, if we all did this, we could all become geniuses ourselves. Final gift for you http://richgibson.com/rouge_forum/newspa...hn1969.htm
(This post was last modified: 04-09-2015 02:29 AM by Cianna200.)
04-09-2015 01:49 AM
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RE: I'm a Parent...

Thank you for typing all this! Wow, it is a lot to look over! I will be busy for a while!

(04-09-2015 01:49 AM)Cianna200 Wrote:  School is bad for the following

I do want to say outright that being "pro" something - or an "apologist" doesn't mean you need to accept *everything* about the thing you are accepting. It means (to me) that you have gone through a process of evaluation. You have reviewed what you think of as negative, and what you consider to be positive, and ultimately have decided that enough of a positive remains to warrant either tolerance or changing from within the system of the negative.

So, school IS bad for some of these reasons. And I can say that and still be "pro-school" and not be a hypocrite. It is about acknowledging the change we need to see and working together to accomplish those things. For me at least.

(04-09-2015 01:49 AM)Cianna200 Wrote:  1. It is mandatory and you have no say in the manner, you have no choice, and refusal to go results in harsh punishment, making it based on fear and extremely disrespectful to our choices. Adults quit jobs they hate, but not us children, we are the inferior, we must suffer.

There is a lot in this one concept.

Unfortunately, for us all, there is a lot beyond school that is mandatory. I am not saying this as a pro or a con, for sure. I am just pointing out that mandates, such as not killing people, are in place for a reason. We may choose to not abide them as members of society and potentially lose that standing. The whole idea of a mandate is that there are consequences to disobedience. You still have the choice to disobey, but you cannot expect the right to disobey without consequences.

I am an adult. I am a lucky one because I like my job. I do know a lot (and I mean, *a lot*) of adults that hate their job. But they keep it because they must. Some even must keep it because they don't have the High School Diploma that is a social standard for moving forward.

Don't get me started on jobs that require college degrees! I hate that! If you have years of demonstrable, real world experience, to be denied a job because you couldn't afford to go to college is just insanity. I actively lobby our company to hire people who have not graduated college. We have never had an applicant without a GED / Diploma. I would need to meet the person and witness their demonstrable skills in that case. Why? Because while NONE of what you learned matters to me, the fact that you learned something does matter. The fact that you are skilled does matter. The fact that you completed something immense - ANYTHING immense as High School is a testament to the person's tenacity. Because school can suck hard. To get through it proves strength. And why is strength needed? Because some tasks - even in jobs that you like - will suck hard too.

I work for a small company. We can devote some resources to these detailed interviews. Big companies with lots of applicants cannot... so I do understand why a reasonable starting point is a requirement.

(04-09-2015 01:49 AM)Cianna200 Wrote:  2. A lack of freedom, you are treated as inferior, you cannot go to the bathroom unless you ask (if they say you can go), you cannot eat unless it is time, you cannot leave unless they say so, most of the time having fun is not allowed,
You must stay within the confinements of this prison like place until they release you.

I know that my school was a little better than this. I think my son's is as well. Going to the restroom was very easy, food was allowed in class (I mean, you couldn't play Top Chef! and bring a gourmet meal during a class), drinks are no problem.

The reason for you to be supervised is liability. College is much different, and it is worth getting there, imo. Regardless, as a minor you are not a full adult, and your adults are responsible for your actions. If you were watching a younger child as a babysitter and they burned down the house, you would be liable. The reason for the restriction is the same. It isn't as much monitoring as it is protection from liability. If you can bring yourself to be in the shoes of your adversaries, I think you would at least understand the motivation is not to impose upon you, but to protect themselves.

(04-09-2015 01:49 AM)Cianna200 Wrote:  3. Subject to torment, abuse and humiliation: Too many parents lost their kids to bullying, one may argue that it is because the parents of the bullies were not good parents, but the frustration of going to school could cause people to take it out on each other through violence, physical, emotional, mental and verbal. Even adults do it! Teachers are also known to humiliate their students through yelling at them, calling their homes, and even hitting them. This makes it more miserable.

School has changed a lot on this front. Teachers have less rights to strike a child (which is excellent for those to be taken away). But it seems that Bullying has escalated. I had a friend who had urine dumped on him. I am a guy, but I was one of very few goth type kids in school... OK the only guy wearing lipstick and makeup. I had my fair share.

Truth be told, though, the community was even worse than the school. I had parents of my friends standing up in their church after Littleton calling me a Satan worshipper and so on. Persecution and discrimination, anger and bullying does exist throughout life... very mean people are out there.

BUT kids today seem more mean. I can't believe the horribly sad stories I have seen, and I am broken hearted to consider how any of that may happen to either of my children. My biggest plea to all children is to find adults that are on your side. I think that a very strong majority of parents are highly attuned to bullying now and will listen and help. Our school has anonymous ways to report bullying. And there are resources at schools who are there for that reason.

My real point is that bullying is a major bad part - but not just of school - of the world as a whole. Look at ISIS. They are bullies on an adult level. The opposite of this is most easily found in a school setting though, too - and that is friendship.

(04-09-2015 01:49 AM)Cianna200 Wrote:  4. Zero tolerance, It shows a fear of students, I don't really need to explain this one, every member here should already know. Have you watched the war on kids?

It is a little patronizing to assume that I know what you are talking about. My step-son has had many many chances when he has done wrong and he is generally still treated as a human by his teachers. I am interested - what is the war on kids? Is this a film, or is it a phrase that is used on this site?

(04-09-2015 01:49 AM)Cianna200 Wrote:  5. No one can deny that much of what school has taught them is being used and earning them great almost perfect success in their working life. Most of us have forgotten half or even more of the stuff they teach us in school. Take my grandmother for example, she can barely spell or use math, but it was taught to her. She often has to ask me for help, but even my memory of math is fading.

I think I mentioned above - it isn't about what is learned to me. It is about dedication and learning the fundaments of operating in the context. The knowledge is valuable, and I am always surprised and happy when what I have learned in school pays off.

For instance, there is a mandate for foreign language. When I was in school, Spanish was only in mild demand, and French was nil. I took French because of my family being partially French.

In my current job, French is required for our work in Canada. My leaning on four years of high school French comes back very quickly when I am there supporting them, and this job would not be possible without it. I also program computers (yes, I have a seriously varied job). This was introduced to me in high school with COBOL and BASIC. These are rare languages these days, but it does just so happen that we occasionally convert something that ancient into the modern world.

Also with programming, algebraic logic has come in super handy. I am HORRIBLE at math, but logic behind it is something I apply daily in my job when programming.

Oh, one more... geometric proofs. These changed my life. They didn't just teach me about geometry, but they taught me how to think and process a problem. We distribute software, so it is "black box". We cannot see the code. Essentially what we have to do is the programming equivalent of geometric proofs. We apply rules in an orderly fashion to identify the issue to the programmers of those applications.

It is worth mentioning that there are things I don't use from school. Things I don't remember. Things I never cared about. Ugh. Chemistry. Ironically, the field of our business is air quality - so it is like ALL Chemistry. I still won't touch that crap with a ten foot pole! Oh, you need to convert a concentrated from PPM to LBS/FT3, let me find someone else to help you!

But that doesn't mean school is bad. That doesn't even mean your exposure to what you won't use is bad... why? Because your future is bright and you never know when you will need something.

(04-09-2015 01:49 AM)Cianna200 Wrote:  6. Homework, after school we should finally be able to kick back and relax or finally be able to do something we actually like, but nope, school has followed us home! Sometimes in large quantities. We already have a small amount of time in our home before we go back to that dead blasted building, but homework just eats away at that time and we are stuck with more stress, refusal to do it has consequences.

This is, honestly, something I don't have sympathy for. Sorry. Only the most basic jobs in life let you go home to relax. And that is assuming you don't have housework, family to cook for, or any number of things.

There is a lot of good debate about whether or not it is quantitatively helpful for improved learning... but it does absolutely get you prepared for a successful life if you can handle it.

(04-09-2015 01:49 AM)Cianna200 Wrote:  7. School fails to teach what should be taught, like the importance of kindness and good will (but how can it be taught when it is denied?) It fails to teach us to think for ourselves, which is one of the most important things in life.

Lots of schools have debate classes or clubs. Literature classes are designed to do exactly what you are talking about (thinking for yourself) by example. The whole idea of reading the classics is to understand how these unique individuals processed their times. The stories are sometimes shit, but the whole point is show you how to express what *you* feel and to give you the tools to be effective.

(04-09-2015 01:49 AM)Cianna200 Wrote:  8. Friendship and romance is a crime at school: No talking to our friends, no hanging out with our sweethearts, affection can result in being scolded, and in some more severe cases, detention, suspension, or expulsion!

Agreed. You are teenagers and deserve to respectfully express love and friendship.

(04-09-2015 01:49 AM)Cianna200 Wrote:  9. Our childhood is stolen from us: Childhood is probably more important than adulthood because that is where we begin to create and mold ourselves into great human beings. Childhood is supposed to be full of laughter, fun, exploration and curiosity, but school takes much of that away all the way to adulthood, our innocence is destroyed. I wonder how many people wish they could just reverse the clock and be children again.

I am a lifelong child at heart, despite the work I do. So I don't really know what you mean by this. I am not wishing to be a child again because I never left. It doesn't mean I can't be an adult at the same time. The idea that your age ties you to an attitude is as much brainwashing as anything related to school itself. Meet your responsibilities then be the child you want to be. It is a great way to live life.

(04-09-2015 01:49 AM)Cianna200 Wrote:  10. That annoying bell: We barely have time to do the work!

I don't think I want my tax money used to release a flock of doves when it is time to change classes. I don't mind the bells.


(04-09-2015 01:49 AM)Cianna200 Wrote:  11. School teaches that true learning is based on memorization, no it is not.
We are supposed to figure it out completely and perfectly with an open mind, and
constantly use our common sense to really learn.

Aside from the fact that you are able to type this long and thoughtful response due to your memorization of the keystrokes and the English language, I don't know what you mean! Smile

(04-09-2015 01:49 AM)Cianna200 Wrote:  12. School was modeled after the Prussian institution, the goal was to whip the sheep into the flock, to make obedient robots out of children through training and taking them from their parents. So school is about obedience, fear, punishment, submission, authoritarianism.

I would need to look into this, but the model for something being flawed doesn't inherently mean that the system has not benefited from evolution. I will look into this and work on a better response!

(04-09-2015 01:49 AM)Cianna200 Wrote:  13. We all get taught the same thing at the same place at the same time, our minds operate differently, things would work out better if we were all taught individually or put into places that fit our mindset.

This is, I think, the most interesting to me. Let's say that you were the all powerful leader of all society. You had millions that relied on you for your decisions. In this perfect world where you are leader, what is your solution to ensuring all those people are educated? It doesn't need to be one-size-fits-all... I welcome a complex solution.

(04-09-2015 01:49 AM)Cianna200 Wrote:  14. Very intelligent people hated school, take Thomas Edison who invented the light bulb, he was very anti school. Albert Einstein hated school with an intense vehement passion, "Education is something that remains after one has forgotten everything he learned at school." That is one of his famous lines, he got Ds in school and dropped out too, http://www.school-survival.net/successful_dropouts.php . but
yet, he is one of the most clever, most wise and most intelligent persons that ever live. If school didn't help him, he must have helped himself. You should click on quotes about school on the homepage http://www.school-survival.net/quotes.php

Meh. You can do better than this! People disliking school, people liking school... this is a logical fallacy. Just because some people who left school were successful doesn't mean that they were right about school being bad.

(04-09-2015 01:49 AM)Cianna200 Wrote:  15. It brainwashes people! Our Parents especially! They think it's good, if their children fail to learn well they hurt them, school is more important than the happiness of the child. I know most parents care for their kids and want what is best for them but can't we get what is best for us and still be happy? My grandmother sees me as only lovable if I perform well for her in school.
Someone complained here that they were hurt, yet their parents ignored that
" Get well soon, because you got work to do" What the?????? I don't mean to show you any disrespect here but the fact that you are convinced that school is good, means that you have been successfully brainwashed like the majority of people.

I am sorry for your situation. I repeatedly tell my step-son that grades don't matter, only the effort. Grades are generally crap indicators. I would like school better if grades were transformed into something less judgmental and more informational. I would love to see a weighted percent of work completed to percent of understanding. Teachers wouldn't go for that, though - bad teachers would be weeded out immediately.

(04-09-2015 01:49 AM)Cianna200 Wrote:  16. It is boring, boredom can be destructive and even devastating, people kill themselves because they are bored, people's mental health decline because they are bored, serial killers could be killing because they are bored, internet trolls usually troll because they are bored, boredom can cause bullying, boredom can cause the end of a friendship or romance.

Boredom is a vicious thing, but I don't think that not being at school is a cure. What cures your boredom? How does it also make you a better person? Just curious questions.



(04-09-2015 01:49 AM)Cianna200 Wrote:  "But Cianna without school how would we learn how to read and write?!"

How do you think? If school was created and people are taught how to read and write, this would strongly imply that reading and writing existed before school, school is not your savior.

Give me a little more credit! I taught my step son to read and write before school. My son is on his way too. I am more worried about the things I can't teach. The existential things. That and the fact that I have to also feed them and a job is required for that!

(04-09-2015 01:49 AM)Cianna200 Wrote:  "But Cianna without school how will we have friends?"

Uh Duh, get out and make some friends, there is something called society.

School is a good microcosm for a functioning society too. It is very realistic of our world.

(04-09-2015 01:49 AM)Cianna200 Wrote:  "But Cianna my child likes school!"

He won't for long.

This is unfair, and I think you know that it is unfair to impose your predetermination on anyone else's family.

(04-09-2015 01:49 AM)Cianna200 Wrote:  "But Cianna how do you think humans became so smart?"

You see the sad fact of life is that most people never take the time to question things, like how does this work, how does that work and why are things the way they are? No amount of grades will ever measure intelligence. http://www.naturalchild.org/jan_hunt/grades.html Is school really trying to make us intelligent or are we deliberately being dumbed down until we no longer question? If you don't question things, you lose common sense and wisdom,
Common sense really is uncommon. I always question things, school, money, religion, philosophy, etc. Many people do come out of school and get a job, good for them, but why is society so messed up than? Why aren't we using the knowledge from school to fix things up and make a better world, how come only few people question things? Atheists question religion, antiromantics question romance, Scientists question the world, these people are intelligent because they are learners and examiners, if we all did this, we could all become geniuses ourselves. Final gift for you http://richgibson.com/rouge_forum/newspa...hn1969.htm

All of what you say is true, but we languished for a very long time before structured school brought us together and advanced us. After a period where education was valued, our humanity descended into a period of lacking innovation and very little forward momentum. This was a period where school was less common and religion was more common. School came back big time, though, The Enlightenment, Industrial Revolution and the technical age are all clearly bolstered by a strong social belief in providing education.


WHEW! Smile
04-09-2015 05:22 AM
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Cianna200 Offline
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Post: #15
RE: I'm a Parent...

School makes most people miserable, this is factual heck if school was extended people would probably go mad.
What children need is the freedom to learn on their own. Unschooling is the best option. If most people were unschoolers, this would make healthier and happier human beings. To answer you

1. Most of school is negative, you can still be pro school if you like, many Christians are still all up for fundamental Christianity despite the dangers it holds, they refuse to adhere to what other people are saying, even when they show evidence.
They have been successfully brainwashed.

2. Food is mandatory, it is a natural law, but it should be because you need it to live, But compulsory school however is unnatural and unnecessary, you are dragged into school, school should be a choice not an obligation. There is no free will when it comes to school. It's good that you have a job you like, as for the people that feel like they must do it, it is because of fear of the government, they fear poverty, they fear being severely punished, it is mandatory because someone decided it should be. We are basically mind controlled under the threat of pain and suffering, this is slavery, denial of freedom without the threat of punishment. It is not like nature itself designed having jobs to be mandatory

3. Most schools are not like your school, although restrictions are needed, the ability to learn how to trust is also needed. If what you said is the case, why not parents forbid children to eat, drink, sleep and use the toilet without their permission?

4. Most schools still permit humiliation, mental abuse and so so.

Is there any school in which the teachers do not humiliate the children for acting out? Not to mention we have no freedom to be ourselves in school.
Bullying continues to rise because the tormentors have not gotten it through their mind that bullying is wrong, stress and unhappiness is a common factor for bullying.
School is a good stress creator, although there exist these kinds of things outside it's walls. I am sorry you were called a Satan worshipper, why? If our children complained to us about bullying, we tell the school, if the bullying continues, we have to get our children out and fast! Many Adults don't really seem to care for children, other wise they would do everything in their power to protect children, we are still seen as lower than them so we have fewer rights. Adults don't care enough to make the world a better place for the children. However even though bullying is everywhere, you can escape more easier, however you are stuck with your torturers at school.

5. I meant every anti school user who has been coming here for a while. Your son may have experienced still being treated as human, but he would not have in lots of schools. Most schools see children as tools and not people, I am amazed at the reactions adults give to students for relatively trivial crimes. The war on kids is a movie that exposes the evil of schools, it is a must watch for parents, but my faith is small on whether or not they get the message.

6. You must learn, it is vitally important in life, although dedication is important too.
Also when it comes to french, do you believe school is needed to learn French?
What about other issues in the world, school would than have millions of things that you must learn because they are naturally or unnaturally obligatory. I remember there being explained before on how children learned to use computers well on their own, without scholarship. Where do you believe math came from? Can anyone learn math on their own or are they helpless without school? How have the people who created math learn to do? The math at school is not natural math. But because school fails to encourage freedom to be natural thinkers, it is chipped down in positivity. People are better workers and thinkers if they do what interest them.
It is difficult to forget the teaching of something that you love.

7. Everyone needs the time to be entertained, would you like it if you couldn't do what you like because something else prevented that?

8. If school really didn't fail in teaching morality, friendship, and so on, we would have fewer complaints about school. Literature classes do not work for a lot of people. School absolutely does not teach you to think for yourself, it teaches that you must rely on other people to become super intelligent, which is a huge crime in itself.

9. Not just teenagers, but children should be allowed to talk with their friends, but instead we hear "Stop talking!" Socialization is important.

10. You may be but most people aren't, we are quickly rushed into the hard life of adulthood where we develop more egocentric, more hardship, and a lack of playfulness, they have work constantly on their minds. Childhood is all too precious to waste like that. Children should be free to act like children, but instead they instead must skip much of childhood and must be in constant training and worry for the future.

11. If we have to constantly move classes at the bell, we lose time to finish the work not to mention we probably scramble our minds

12. Ah but do I know where my consciousness to type these things came from?

13. Since school has a darker idea in mind, this should raise red flags in the intelligent mind. Evolution does not help, if it did, than school would have been kicked out of existence.

14. The fact is that it may not work for everyone, this is the problem.

15. Hmmm that was just added to make a stance but I am extremely surprised that super intelligent people like Albert Einstein hated school, he questioned school, I know through his bio. The irony is you believing school is good through everything you just said does not mean you are perfectly right.

16. I'm glad that you are against grades, although effort is needed, we should not be punished for failing in our effort.

17. I know not being in school automatically means no boredom. However many boredoms are small and temporary but school creates severe boredom and for hours, this process repeats itself for over 12 years! Music is a good cure for boredom with me but school usually doesn't allow it, what makes you a better person is not being pushed on through boredom but caring about yourself enough to make a difference, and if you are unhappy, that will be difficult.

18. What I meant was before school ever existed, people must have learned how to read or write.

19. No it is not, since having friends is a crime at school, getting out and seeing the world is an excellent way to make friends.

20. It is also unfair to send your child to a place that will hurt his esteem if he does not want to go.

21. School just made everything worse, if we all became unschoolers, bound together through friendship, natural learning, and exploration, the world would turn out much better.
(This post was last modified: 04-09-2015 07:18 AM by Cianna200.)
04-09-2015 07:08 AM
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I'm a Parent...

Hi there!

This is an interesting situation, and something that I don't think has quite happened on here before.

So... welcome! Smile

I'll catch up on all the posts soon, but for now I just want to respond to this:

Quote:When my son begins any of these conversations it is always out of rage, which is a separate issue. His inclination to yell is immediate. I can try to participate calmly, but my voice is buried under his immediately, so I must raise mine just to be heard. I also don't want to just ignore these important conversations.
Now I can't speak for him, but when I'm angry and raging about something, I usually just want to vent and get it out of my system. My mind isn't working well enough for me to form logical arguments and basically I just want someone to accept me in that moment, let me vent, maybe even try to understand if possible... but the absolute last thing I'm normally looking for is a debate or argument. If someone does want to argue while I'm venting, it normally just makes me even angrier.

Quote:*School "Survival" - In all, I think that school survival, as a conceptual endeavor is not what this site has taken upon itself. Survival of any type commits oneself to some objective. Surviving life is about completing it until the end, how then is surviving school about trying alternatives. Surviving life is not about alternatives, it is about using the tools at your disposal to complete the journey. This is another reason I have joined - my ONLY goal is to help my step-son have a complete journey.
The name came to me sort of spontaneously, and at the time I thought "I'll just use this as the name for now and come up with something better later". But it is actually quite fitting, I think. School Survival is (or was originally) aimed at kids who hate school and whose parents won't let them try alternatives for whatever reason... but we do generally try to help them talk to their parents about trying some alternative, and lately some of our members have been focusing a lot more on alternatives. Alternatives are important, most notably because it seems not enough people take them seriously, and it would be nice if that would change. There's more information about alternatives on this site, if you're interested: http://alternativestoschool.com/

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04-09-2015 07:31 AM
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I'm a Parent...

OK, so I think it seems that the general reason you're in favour of school as a concept is because of the effort involved, like if someone has graduated then it proves that they managed to spend 12 years or whatever doing stuff that people told them to do, and that this is a valuable thing... right?

So if someone spent 6 years digging a hole because someone with authority told them to, and then another 6 years filling it up again, it would prove their dedication & persistence, and would say something good about them... right? ... But what have they actually accomplished in that time? What if they could do something that actually mattered to them in that same time, and accomplish things that they themselves care about? Wouldn't that be better?

Quote:This is, honestly, something I don't have sympathy for. Sorry. Only the most basic jobs in life let you go home to relax. And that is assuming you don't have housework, family to cook for, or any number of things.

There is a lot of good debate about whether or not it is quantitatively helpful for improved learning... but it does absolutely get you prepared for a successful life if you can handle it.
It almost sounds like you're saying that relaxing is a bad thing, a "waste of time" even... is that what you think? And what is your definition of "a successful life"?

"If you can, help others; if you cannot do that, at least do not harm them." - Dalai Lama
Help & Support - Get help with leaving school, unsupportive parents, and more.
Click here if school makes you depressed or suicidal

Support School Survival on Patreon or Donate Bitcoin Here: 1Q5WCcxWjayniaL92b8GfXBiGdfjmnUNa2
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(This post was last modified: 04-09-2015 07:56 AM by SoulRiser.)
04-09-2015 07:54 AM
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Trekkie_Aspie Offline
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Post: #18
I'm a Parent...

Quote: Initially, the approach that my step-son has been taking has been quite aggressively anti-school. I don't lack in understanding of this. I have tried to relay to him my own negative experiences with school. His anger and frustration is very strong and it affects us all in my house. My first reaction - since this site is a source of a lot of what he is reading - was to basically hate this place. I suppose that is natural.

I can’t help wondering if your step-son was complaining about the whole concept of school. If I was complaining about the whole model of factory schooling and someone started talking about their negative experiences with a particular thing(just a cod example), I’d be very peeved too.

Yes, your first reaction is entirely natural. When confronted with a choice between thinking about changing their minds as new evidence comes to light or proving they’re right…most people get busy with the proof.


Quote:I have, however, decided to take another approach. I have thought a good bit about all and just decided that maybe I should join and become a participant.

And I’m willing to commend you for that. So, kudos on joining. This means that you’ve taken one more step than many people do: you’ve tried to find out more about this place. So, welcome aboard.


Quote:I am posting this in School Talk, because this what I really want to do - talk about school. I *do* understand the negatives in our currently public education system in the US. Perhaps not all of them, and I welcome your sincere education of me on the matters at hand. I must admit that I am generally "pro-school" as a general concept. I am also pro-public education. I will mention more on this later.

Why are you pro-school in particular? I don’t have a problem with public education, in general. Just the way it tends to be set up. Understand that I don’t mean to challenge you on this. I just want to know what your underlying reasons are. I’ve noticed lots of people conflate ‘school’ with ‘education’ and such so I’d like to know what your underlying reasons are.

Quote:I am concerned about some concepts that he has been floating around our house, and I want to get to the bottom of them and see if I can resolve a way to either agree with them, or disagree with them.

That sounds absolutely reasonable to me. With the caveat that you do need to keep an open mind as to what we say. I’m sure you will because hey, you joined up. I guess that comment is mostly for lurkers.




Quote:*School as Slavery - OK, the real reason I started off by hating this place. I take sincere issue with this concept. All my step-son has provided is meaningless argument without any logic.
This sounds a lot like the “fallen in with a bad crowd” argument, to me. I will attempt to explain why your stepson may think that why. Ultimately though, this is all conjecture and the only person that really knows why your stepson said that is your stepson. Though I must ask you if you have offered your stepson any logic as to why school is good?

Quote:This sounds harsh, but I always listen to the words he says and evaluate them for their worth.
Nope, that sounds like good parenting to me. You’re a step ahead than most parents. Most parents, faced with your situation would shut down the conversation with “School is good for you” and refuse to discuss it any further.

Quote:His commentary is passionate, but it lacks in fact.
Are you really sure? I’m not saying you shouldn’t be. I just think you might want to reflect on whether you provide any facts for the counterargument or whether your kneejerk reaction is “False!!!!”, regardless of whether there are actually facts or not. We’re all humans and we all have the occasional slip but is worth examining to see if they are there or not.

Quote: So, how is school slavery?
Slavery: a condition of having to work very hard without proper remuneration or appreciation. Claiming that school equals slavery is more accurate than “wage slavery” that I’ve seen people talk about. Would you challenge a co-worker who used the term “Wage Slavery?”

Quote:I do understand that the effort he puts forth reflects upon the performance of his teachers - but this is a concept from before schooling.
So? Things can be bad and later, used in a different system and they’ll still be bad. Things can also be badly excuted within a system and they will be bad within that system, even if they weren’t inherently bad before.





Quote:This is more, to me, the idea of apprenticeship.
Nope. Most Apprentices are on an “Earn while you Learn” type program nowadays.

Quote:One learns the life long tools to accomplish success in a trade.
Which would be fine if school actually matched up to real life in any meaningful way. Past about 10, it doesn’t. In my adult life, I have never needed to analyse a Shakespeare play or write an essay comparing poems.

Quote:A person who has skill must impart that skill upon a person without the skill. This, of course happens all the time.

Sure. But do you grab random coworkers and educate them on the new IT system at work? Or do you hang around and go “I can help” when people struggle with the new IT system? Or do you hang a poster up with “IT training” written on it? There is a vast difference between the first method and the latter two. Traditional school-as-usual does the first method.

Quote:The lack of compensation isn't even really what slavery, at its root is.
Uhh…yeh, it is. See the dictionary definition above.

Quote: My step-son is *not* treated as property, he is treated as a participant.

I guarantee you that your stepson is not treated as a participant – your stepson may or may not be treated as property. But he will not be treated as a participant. Your stepson may be treated as an empty vessel to be filled or an animal to be fattened. But just weighing the pig doesn't make it any fatter

But he will be told what to learn, when to learn it and how to learn it. Your stepson will be told how in depth he can learn it to. If he’s interested in bugs when the class is doing spiders? Too bad, so sad. That is not participating. If he’s ready for 7th-grade maths in 5th grade? If he still needs 3rd grade Maths in 5th grade? Too bad.

He will also be expected to announce when he needs the bathroom in front of 29ish other kids. If you don’t see why that might be a bit dehumanising, I can’t help you.


Quote:This applies to our house at least. This means he has expectations and reward, when he experiences failure - we all do. When he earns success we all are thankful.

What goes on in your house is irrelevant to whether school is slavery or not. That would be a counter-argument to “You treat me like a slave”, not a counter-argument to school being slavery.

Quote:This is how the school system operates in my mind.
Fair enough. I just don’t agree with you.

Quote: But truly, the idea of School as Slavery is poisonous to me (and I believe to your general cause) because it takes a base, emotionally charged term and applies it generally.

Why? The term “Wage Slavery” does exactly the same thing and is far less accurate than school as slavery, per the dictionary definition.

Quote:The idea that one must gain knowledge - via the logic that he at least presents - will always be slavery. Homeschooling, Unschooling, Private Schooling.... all the alternatives suggested become slavery. Why? Because each of them involve an uncompensated learner.

With the key difference that he has some control over his learning. Your stepson could also create an online business as part of his studies and thus be compensated that way.

Quote:*School is Bad - this, as the main content of the site says in very clear words, is not true.
It’s fair enough for you to feel that way. This is something where we disagree though.

Quote:School is an institution, yes, and with that come a series of pros and cons. A long and deep list that may even be unfathomable.

Sure. There are several cons that come from the said institution being the only well-known one. How many times have you heard people tell their kids that school is compulsory when it isn’t?


Quote:But as much as school is *bad* for one person, it is good for another.

Right. My brother and I wear different shoe sizes. My shoe size would be bad for my brother (way too small) and my brother’s shoe size would be bad for me (way too big). That doesn’t make either size ‘wrong’ – it just means that we’re different sizes. If there was only one shoe size publicized, one of us would be in trouble.

And it would be cruel to make us wear the same shoe size. That doesn’t mean there’s anything inherently wrong with either size shoe though.

Quote: I take strong issue with my step-son attempting to convert people who enjoy and gain from the school system something that pleases them.

Is he attempting to convince them or is he attempting to convert them? If you were removed from the situation, would you regard him as more of an annoying religious fundamentalist who attempts to convert everyone to their chosen religion or would you see him as more of an inspirational speaker?

Quote: My second son is a great example of how one person's negativity towards school can result in another person's. My second son regards my step-son as an idol. He hears that "School sucks" and wonders why.

New ideas make people thoughtful. That’s as it should be. Your stepson has made you think. Otherwise, you wouldn’t be posting about it.

Quote:He is told by my step-son that it is a bad place, without context, and becomes nervous. Once he gets to school - he loves it and learns a lot.

Are you sure? Because ultimately, your second son actually goes to that school and is more likely to know what it’s actually like than you do. Could there be another reason that your second son is nervous about enviromental factors and it's just bad timing?

For example, I liked school in that I liked learning. I was very very nervous about school though. That was due to bad bullying. I used to throw up out of sheer terror/nerves regarding bullies. Don’t get the wrong idea, I wasn’t making myself throw up – I was just that scared.


Quote:I also know that my step-son is attempting to "unbrainwash" his friends who enjoy school. I don't know that this general concept came from your group - truth be told, but I think that it is dangerous to force opinions on those who disagree (which resulted in my resolution to participate in this conversation and learn from you).

And that’s his decision. Yes, there are influences but haven’t you ever asked if you should shave or something? Ultimately, this is a forum which nobody has to read if they don’t want to.

Quote:Ultimately, school has bad things about it - all schooling and all alternatives to schooling will have this! No system is perfect! But school is not bad because for all the successful dropouts, there are also successful stayins.

Yes. Only clothing has one-size-fits all. But have you ever seen anyone cut shoes up so that they fit? Or have you ever seen people use a shoehorn to ram on shoes that are clearly too small for them? Or do people buy the right-size shoes for them?

Let’s say you have three children with varying shoe sizes. Your oldest child is a size 8, your middle child is a size 6 and your youngest is a size 4. Let’s say that your friend has the same spread of children and shoe sizes.

Your way of dealing with this ‘problem’ is to buy one pair of size-8 shoes, one pair of size-6 shoes and one pair of size-4 shoes. Your friend’s way is to buy three pairs of size 6 shoes.

Your friend’s middle child has size 6 feet so she’ll be fine and will be quite comfortable in her new shoes. Your friend’s oldest child is going to have very squished feet though while the youngest will look like a clown.

Whose solution sounds more sensible to you? Would you intervene if you witnessed your friend’s solution to the problem?

Quote:*Sorely missing Opportunity Costs - So the idea above, that you must sacrifice something to gain something else is essentially reflected in the opportunity cost.
Yes? Isn’t that what an opportunity cost is? I’m sure you’re trying to make a point here. I’m just not sure what it is.





Quote:I feel strongly that some of the positives of public school are not hitting home well as this site seems to be providing a lot of negativity for my step-son.

So you feel that some of the positives of public school aren’t hitting well because your son goes on a forum that is negative about school? Either he already agreed or your son can be swayed really easily.


Quote:For instance, if he unschools, then he loses the chance to play in marching band during a College Bowl Game in Atlanta this year.

Does your stepson know this? Does this matter to him? Does your son want to play in marching band or do you want him to play in marching band?

Quote:For instance, he benefits greatly from social interaction for personal reasons - I will not go into details, but this goes beyond just making friends, or what most parents might be concerned about.

Now, I obviously don’t really know what’s going on here because of lack of details. Though if you’re concerned about something like an autism-spectrum disorder, your son likely isn’t getting the anywhere near the amount of quality social interaction you think he is.

It’s more likely that bullying or something equally toxic is his sole social interaction. And in any case, if that is what you’re concerned about, he likely needs explicit instruction in any case. If I’m right, drama will be one of the things he most needs (because otherwise, he is at huge risk of coming off as creepy due to the explicit thing not seeming natural) and drama will be one of the first things cut in pursuit of higher test scores.

Is it possible that he doesn't get as much out of socializing as you think he does? Introversion or something, I don't know.

Quote: Even at the most basic level - he gets away from his parents for the day!
That goal would also be accomplished just at well, at, say, a Summerhill-type school. Better-accomplished in fact.








Quote:*School "Survival" - In all, I think that school survival, as a conceptual endeavor is not what this site has taken upon itself. Survival of any type commits oneself to some objective. Surviving life is about completing it until the end, how then is surviving school about trying alternatives. Surviving life is not about alternatives, it is about using the tools at your disposal to complete the journey. This is another reason I have joined - my ONLY goal is to help my step-son have a complete journey.

Take a look at this: http://uk.askmen.com/money/career_250/26...hate.html.
Notice how most of those options are ones a student can’t apply to school as usual?

What is your definition of a "complete journey"?

Quote:OK - so, that is a good start! I welcome any comments at all! I enjoy engaging in intelligent conversation and I am open to alternate viewpoints to those I personally feel. I do not judge and I do not dismiss without considering anything presented in a reasonably thoughtful, sincere and mature fashion!

Sure. I would like to once again, congratulate you for attempting to figure out what the opposing viewpoint is.


Quote:Oh, yes - why am I "pro-school"? Because it worked for me. It worked for my friends. It worked for my friends of friends. The only person that I know that did not work (ie, who graduated school and then subsequently failed) is a friend of mine - it is a sad story, in a way...

I’m not sure that “It worked for me” is a brilliant argument. That’s like me saying that because I have a size-6 foot and all my friends and all my friends’ friends have size-6 feet, size 6 shoes work for everybody. It doesn’t work that way.

Ultimately though, you only actually know that it worked for you. It’s entirely possible that your friends just went through the motions. It’s entirely possible that it did a number on someone’s health (whichever PIMES sphere that was in). You simply don’t know.





Quote:Why am I "pro-public school" - I believe that affording *any* educational experience comes at immense cost to someone - be it the most generous of parents who are giving up their chance for income to be your homeschooler to the infrastructure and teachers in the giant buildings - nothing is free.

Sure. But you (school-system-you, not-you personally) but you don’t get to charge and restrict and claim that things are free without somebody calling you out on your bullshit. The school system is neither libre nor gratis.

The teachers did elect to go to the school though and they chose that in the knowledge that would get paid. They also have protections in place which students don’t have. Constructive dismissal is actually enforced against whereas ‘ordinary’ bullying isn’t.

Quote: The public school system takes our money to afford the equal opportunity for the most people.

Then why do poor districts consistently underperform compared to richer distracts, time and time again, when you control for other factors?

Quote:The idea of testing attempts to ensure that our society's committed investment in the future of the world is not in vain.
There are other methods that can be done far far more cheaply. When you allow more autonomy, you spend less time on discipline and more time on learning. And sure, I get what the idea of testing is. I just don’t think it really works. Weighing the pig alone will not make your pig any fatter - feeding it will.

Quote: Is all of this done perfectly? Absolutely not! Is some of it OK? Absolutely!

Yes, school does provide some useful things. Just like a size-6 shoe is pefect for a size-6 foot but is utterly useless for a size-4 foot or a size-8 foot. If you only sell size-6 shoes, you aren’t going to reach most of the population.

And yes, school does some useful things. It’s a bit like being given free ice-cream in hell though. It just doesn’t quite make up for everything else.

Quote:Because it is public schooling can we work together to bring about change? Absolutely! Can that be done on a home school level for the unified betterment of all society - only on a case-by-case basis.

No. Parents and teachers can work together to bring about change. The students who are the only ones that have to be affected by the change don’t get a say at all. Parents can just not go to school, teachers can quit. Students don’t really have either option on their own.

Quote:Anyway... I hope for some response, I look forward to it! Have a great evening!

Let’s see, closing remarks: The narrative in great-great-great-grandfather’s day was “Learn a trade and you’ll have a job for life.” That hasn’t been true for a long time.

And then the narrative was “Get into a good school, get good grades, get into a good university, get good grades and be guaranteed a good job.” That narrative isn’t true any longer either but it was something that was used, time and time, again as justification but it has been used as a control tactic long after it was false.

If I seem rude to you, please call me on it gently.
One thing (among many others) school couldn't teach you.

((Google Asperger's Syndrome))

stupid article
04-09-2015 08:07 AM
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TheCancer Offline
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Post: #19
RE: I'm a Parent...

"I think that is a pretty gross understatement and misrepresentation of slavery. Slavery is the denial of humanity to a human. Working without compensation can take many many forms including apprenticeship (as noted before), internship and even volunteerism.

Being a slave is about being owned - like the school system or not, it's intent is to grow you to be the opposite. It fails its rather lofty goals for some people, but it is very wrong to call it slavery.

There is another component to slavery other than the slave, it is the owner, as you can see. It is essential to the concept and it is absent here. The only possible argument would be that the master is society, and that is not true - people who succeed in school have the equal ability (however spartan) to withdraw from society as those who did not attend school."

When a child is free to not go to school that is when I will agree it is not a form of slavery. Some slavery is worse than others but compulsory school is a form of slavery. It may be a mild form compared to the slavery we typically study about but it is still wrong.

With regard to how I've come to my belief that public education should be abolished, I've been a public school teacher for over a decade and know quite well inside and out what a complete and dismal failure it is.

If you want to be a different fish, you've got to jump out of the school.


Captain Beefheart
(This post was last modified: 04-09-2015 08:15 AM by TheCancer.)
04-09-2015 08:11 AM
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Trekkie_Aspie Offline
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Post: #20
I'm a Parent...

The dictionary definition of slavery is "To work very hard without proper appreciation or renumeration." No owner is required.

If I seem rude to you, please call me on it gently.
One thing (among many others) school couldn't teach you.

((Google Asperger's Syndrome))

stupid article
(This post was last modified: 04-09-2015 08:25 AM by Trekkie_Aspie.)
04-09-2015 08:25 AM
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magikarp Offline
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Post: #21
RE: I'm a Parent...

(04-09-2015 05:22 AM)casperthegoth Wrote:  After a period where education was valued, our humanity descended into a period of lacking innovation and very little forward momentum. This was a period where school was less common and religion was more common.
I mean, I think it's worth pointing out that for most of the medieval period the clergy were the literate class.

Quote:This is, honestly, something I don't have sympathy for. Sorry. Only the most basic jobs in life let you go home to relax. And that is assuming you don't have housework, family to cook for, or any number of things.

There is a lot of good debate about whether or not it is quantitatively helpful for improved learning... but it does absolutely get you prepared for a successful life if you can handle it.
Eh, I don't take work home aside from answering the occasional email, I know a lot of people who don't. It's not a given.

"Do we treat straight public sex differently than we do gay public sex? Of course. Straight people are so proud of their public sex that they named a cocktail after it."
(This post was last modified: 04-09-2015 09:22 AM by magikarp.)
04-09-2015 08:55 AM
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Trekkie_Aspie Offline
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Post: #22
I'm a Parent...

@Casperthegoth:

When in your adult life have you ever been restricted to learning with people born only within eleven months or so of your birthdate?

If I seem rude to you, please call me on it gently.
One thing (among many others) school couldn't teach you.

((Google Asperger's Syndrome))

stupid article
04-09-2015 09:16 AM
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casperthegoth Offline
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Post: #23
RE: I'm a Parent...

I really do intend to reply to everyone's points. I am sorry that I haven't been on it today, but it will probably reflect my overall timeliness. I have some other obligations at the moment, but I will return to responding soon.

I also just wanted to say thanks to everyone who has posted something (and to those who are just reading). I appreciate your tolerance of my post!

(04-09-2015 09:16 AM)Trekkie_Aspie Wrote:  @Casperthegoth:

When in your adult life have you ever been restricted to learning with people born only within eleven months or so of your birthdate?

College for me was a business school, so that was the situation there. Also, my first job was a call center harvesting their employees from college, so that was about 95% my age range. We were all segregated from the proven full time employees too....

So, really for the first major part of my adult life it was that situation.
(This post was last modified: 04-09-2015 09:27 AM by casperthegoth.)
04-09-2015 09:25 AM
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casperthegoth Offline
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Post: #24
RE: I'm a Parent...

(04-09-2015 08:55 AM)magikarp Wrote:  [quote='casperthegoth' pid='553322' dateline='1428520930']
After a period where education was valued, our humanity descended into a period of lacking innovation and very little forward momentum. This was a period where school was less common and religion was more common.
I mean, I think it's worth pointing out that for most of the medieval period the clergy were the literate class.[/quote]

This is the period of violence and lack of progress that I am talking about, of course. Secular schooling returning to de facto was a part of the process of urging forward.

(04-09-2015 08:55 AM)magikarp Wrote:  [quote='casperthegoth' pid='553322' dateline='1428520930']
Quote:This is, honestly, something I don't have sympathy for. Sorry. Only the most basic jobs in life let you go home to relax. And that is assuming you don't have housework, family to cook for, or any number of things.

There is a lot of good debate about whether or not it is quantitatively helpful for improved learning... but it does absolutely get you prepared for a successful life if you can handle it.
Eh, I don't take work home aside from answering the occasional email, I know a lot of people who don't. It's not a given.

It isn't so much about being a given - like using the quadratic equation - it is about having a toolbox. Maybe you would never need them.

Congratulations on a job without much homework. I hope you enjoy it. I would be interested in what it is and how old you are, because it is something I have grown into. There was a time when I had several less involved, less paying positions that didn't revolve around persistence such as that... like the call center I just mentioned in the last post... but they couldn't sustain me, let alone my family.

(04-09-2015 08:25 AM)Trekkie_Aspie Wrote:  The dictionary definition of slavery is "To work very hard without proper appreciation or renumeration." No owner is required.

I don't find that definition. Here are some others. All of which have significant leanings towards an interpersonal relationship.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/slavery

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/slave

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/slave

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/slavery

https://www.ahdictionary.com/word/search...submit.y=0

https://www.ahdictionary.com/word/search...ubmit.y=23

I am sorry that replies are intermingled. I obviously don't know how to use the forums well!!!
(This post was last modified: 04-09-2015 09:38 AM by casperthegoth.)
04-09-2015 09:33 AM
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magikarp Offline
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Post: #25
RE: I'm a Parent...

I'm 23, I'm a programmer. But either way, I don't think taking work home is such an involved 'skill' that you need to practice just in case you need it.

"Do we treat straight public sex differently than we do gay public sex? Of course. Straight people are so proud of their public sex that they named a cocktail after it."
(This post was last modified: 04-09-2015 09:44 AM by magikarp.)
04-09-2015 09:40 AM
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 Thanks given by: Aureate , casperthegoth
TheCancer Offline
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Post: #26
RE: I'm a Parent...

I never take work home.

If you want to be a different fish, you've got to jump out of the school.


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04-09-2015 10:12 AM
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MisanthropicIntrovert Offline
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Post: #27
I'm a Parent...

First of all, kudos for attempting to understand your step-son's mindset. As for your post, I agree that "school is slavery" is quite a radical approach and I have seen it on quite a few posts throughout the forums (albeit, I have only been on it for several months). I don't really agree with such a statement because, as you said, it presents learning in a negative light and categorizes people who actually enjoy school.

Despite how militant your step-son may be on the subject matter, it still is important to try to have a conversation that isn't heated with him. Perhaps he just feels misunderstood and that's why he's so short-tempered when you try to speak with him? I obviously don't have all of the details, but in a society that commonly disregards the opinions and viewpoints of youths, it can seem like you're fighting a one-man battle (especially when that battle is against school: an institution highly regarded and deemed as necessary by the vast majority of the population). Anyway, hopefully you and your step-son can have a healthy conversation so he can explain to you what he doesn't like about his current situation and you can hopefully help him look for alternatives.
04-09-2015 10:35 AM
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RE: I'm a Parent...

(04-09-2015 01:36 AM)MurkScribe Wrote:  First off, I'm a glad a parent is here on school survival forums, it's a sign of a growing expansive demographic and a sign of awareness about the system? Well you wrote something long and reasonable for a parent to think, because that is how my parent's feel as well, except I'm starting to change their minds. I am also very pro-public school, I believe there should be a utility and should be available for all, including universities and higher education. Well I really can't convince you of anything, but what I can say speaking from the perspective of a student is school sucks, I hate it because my interest and desires are being pushed out for this pre-digested curriculum thought by the higher ups who said this is needed to prepare me for life, even though I am wanting and trying to gain and understand the world around me through exploration of my own environment, testing out the objects and finding a connection between them, my own curiosity is being stamped out in place of me sitting down what to do where to go where I can sit how I'm supposed to behave, the social hierarchy at school where I'm looked down upon because I don't act dominant, aggressive, and insensitive and I refuse to comply with the authorities. And later in life me being told what to do where to sit where i cant sit, how to behave and me dealing with the social hierarchy except I have to go to that place in order for me to eat, have a bed, shelter, water, and a shower. Except If I go to some workplace that's democratic and cooperative, which I will likely go to instead. I'm just pretty much just rambling right now, but this is all soul draining and is stunting my emotional growth a.k.a being a good person. The current system that were living under is soul draining, isolating, and leads to a population of manageable vegetables waiting to be sorted and molded deemed by small interest groups. Where was I going with this? Pff I don't know, but school yes it sucks, because of all those reasons. Do I agree that our schools should be a investment towards a generation of thinkers, philosophers, artist, and writers? yes. But I do believe our education system should be made and guided form the people, not any elite higher ups.

Your points are well taken. I realize I spoke more of my step-son than myself in the first posts. But I want to be clear right here than when I went to school, I also thought it sucked. I procrastinated, I occasionally failed tests, I was unambitious and I felt peer pressure and minor bullying (compared to today).

I am fully a believer that the yield of these experiences was ultimately beneficial to me. Life isn't always strawberries and cream.

I will say that, since being a teenager, I have lost a lot of negativity. I feel like there is the feeling that condescension is what parents intend when they say that distress is related to age and puberty... I feel like we do a dis-service to ourselves when we don't explain that we hated school too. It makes us seem less honest.

And there is also the issue of just plain being older and having been through more. It also sounds condescending. Unfortunately for us parents, there is no way to NOT sound condescending when saying something like this. I try to avoid it the best I can, but the irony for things like the unschooling concept is that they rely on experience and when kids aren't able to listen to parental advice which is based on experience it ultimately leads to both sides being in a position to be condescending.

I do think that, ultimately, parents and kids could listen to each other more, but that is probably an issue that existed long before public schools! I say that having seen both sides!

Maybe you should show your parents these posts and help your conversation along? I know that I don't say everything perfectly, but if they see someone else with the same struggles (both from their child's perspective and from their own), maybe it will enable us all to be a little more expressive. Maybe they can improve on something I said with their own words... and that can open up some doors?
04-09-2015 11:51 AM
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casperthegoth Offline
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RE: I'm a Parent...

(04-09-2015 01:48 AM)brainiac3397 Wrote:  The fundemental difference is that you apply the data gathered from your testing for business improvement. The US government on the other hand just decides who gets money. In this scenario, it would be as if the answers of your customers determined the money you were paid. Obviously this can create a strong incentive to lie and cheat.

I would assume there is a strong propensity to lie and cheat in any way that benefits someone without integrity in the long term. I like to think I have some integrity, so I don't lie or cheat our customers, and I would try to expose if that happened.

But, someone without integrity in my position would easily be able to weasel around for a few years with apparent success...

(04-09-2015 01:48 AM)brainiac3397 Wrote:  I'd understand if testing was used for data, and I support testing for data, but do you really think they're doing it for data when you not only have classroom tests, but state tests, and federal tests(not federal per se since I just mean things like SAT/ACT which are equally applied on a national scale)? Isn't it a bit odd that the "solution" to low test scores has been MORE testing? And isn't it odd that low scores means LESS money.

I don't take any exception to these flaws in public and mandatory testing. I wouldn't have an issue writing to congressmen and lobbying for support to change and improve the system we have. There are two requirements to change, though... identifying and prioritizing the issues and then proposing solutions.

(04-09-2015 01:48 AM)brainiac3397 Wrote:  In fact the whole fuck-up started with Bush's No Child Left Behind, and continued with Obama's Race To The Top. Testing was only one of the mentioned methods to reforming the American education system, but it's become so skewed that people now use it as the MAIN method to determining educational quality and teacher effectiveness.

This goes back to one-size-fits-all issues. And this really could become two or three discussions. First, what is good and bad about schools. Second, why I think public school is best for my own step-son (which ends up really being a conversation for him and I), and maybe three, just as a conceptual puzzle - how do we offer a solution the level the playing field for all parties - including teachers - so that effective, fair and demonstrable education is available.

I agree that testing is not answer, but maybe it isn't a problem... maybe it is a symptom of the root.

(04-09-2015 01:48 AM)brainiac3397 Wrote:  As far as I care in regard to bands and stuff, those are "EXTRACURRICULAR". The fact it is as such in my opinion means that it should not necessarily hold direct relation to the school beyond being some representative faction of that school. Would I not still be part of that school by choosing to be part of it's band? If I'm in that neighborhood/district/county/state and my taxes are being utilized, does this not give me(and my kids) the right to have a choice in at least their extracurricular activities BEYOND what their own school of attendance gives.

Unfortunately it is generally a specific point that relates to my step-son and is ultimately moot in the bigger picture. He has a strong desire to be in the band, we have paved a path for that... nothing can change for him to enable band *and* enable schooling alternatives in the immediate future.

(04-09-2015 01:48 AM)brainiac3397 Wrote:  I should note that when I mean trim, I'm not talking about powers of government. I'm actually quite the statist. What I meant to say is that there is government involvement(thus "upper-power") in areas where it is unnecessary(where "lower-power" is responsible). I'm basically saying there's too much micromanaging by authority that is literally incapable of determining the most practical solution simply because it has no direct connection with the community being directly impacted.

I think that we are ultimately more on the same page than I initially expected, in a lot of ways. I mean, find common ground and then pick through the small stuff, I think our common ground is fairly strong...
04-09-2015 12:01 PM
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brainiac3397 Offline
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I'm a Parent...

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(06-14-2013 08:02 AM)Potato Wrote:  watch the fuq out, we've got an "intellectual" over here.

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04-09-2015 12:01 PM
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