Quote: Initially, the approach that my step-son has been taking has been quite aggressively anti-school. I don't lack in understanding of this. I have tried to relay to him my own negative experiences with school. His anger and frustration is very strong and it affects us all in my house. My first reaction - since this site is a source of a lot of what he is reading - was to basically hate this place. I suppose that is natural.
I can’t help wondering if your step-son was complaining about the whole concept of school. If I was complaining about the whole model of factory schooling and someone started talking about their negative experiences with a particular thing(just a cod example), I’d be very peeved too.
Yes, your first reaction is entirely natural. When confronted with a choice between thinking about changing their minds as new evidence comes to light or proving they’re right…most people get busy with the proof.
Quote:I have, however, decided to take another approach. I have thought a good bit about all and just decided that maybe I should join and become a participant.
And I’m willing to commend you for that. So, kudos on joining. This means that you’ve taken one more step than many people do: you’ve tried to find out more about this place. So, welcome aboard.
Quote:I am posting this in School Talk, because this what I really want to do - talk about school. I *do* understand the negatives in our currently public education system in the US. Perhaps not all of them, and I welcome your sincere education of me on the matters at hand. I must admit that I am generally "pro-school" as a general concept. I am also pro-public education. I will mention more on this later.
Why are you pro-school in particular? I don’t have a problem with public education, in general. Just the way it tends to be set up. Understand that I don’t mean to challenge you on this. I just want to know what your underlying reasons are. I’ve noticed lots of people conflate ‘school’ with ‘education’ and such so I’d like to know what your underlying reasons are.
Quote:I am concerned about some concepts that he has been floating around our house, and I want to get to the bottom of them and see if I can resolve a way to either agree with them, or disagree with them.
That sounds absolutely reasonable to me. With the caveat that you do need to keep an open mind as to what we say. I’m sure you will because hey, you joined up. I guess that comment is mostly for lurkers.
Quote:*School as Slavery - OK, the real reason I started off by hating this place. I take sincere issue with this concept. All my step-son has provided is meaningless argument without any logic.
This sounds a lot like the “fallen in with a bad crowd” argument, to me. I will attempt to explain why your stepson may think that why. Ultimately though, this is all conjecture and the only person that really knows why your stepson said that is your stepson. Though I must ask you if you have offered your stepson any logic as to why school is good?
Quote:This sounds harsh, but I always listen to the words he says and evaluate them for their worth.
Nope, that sounds like good parenting to me. You’re a step ahead than most parents. Most parents, faced with your situation would shut down the conversation with “School is good for you” and refuse to discuss it any further.
Quote:His commentary is passionate, but it lacks in fact.
Are you really sure? I’m not saying you shouldn’t be. I just think you might want to reflect on whether you provide any facts for the counterargument or whether your kneejerk reaction is “False!!!!”, regardless of whether there are actually facts or not. We’re all humans and we all have the occasional slip but is worth examining to see if they are there or not.
Quote: So, how is school slavery?
Slavery: a condition of having to work very hard without proper remuneration or appreciation. Claiming that school equals slavery is more accurate than “wage slavery” that I’ve seen people talk about. Would you challenge a co-worker who used the term “Wage Slavery?”
Quote:I do understand that the effort he puts forth reflects upon the performance of his teachers - but this is a concept from before schooling.
So? Things can be bad and later, used in a different system and they’ll still be bad. Things can also be badly excuted within a system and they will be bad within that system, even if they weren’t inherently bad before.
Quote:This is more, to me, the idea of apprenticeship.
Nope. Most Apprentices are on an “Earn while you Learn” type program nowadays.
Quote:One learns the life long tools to accomplish success in a trade.
Which would be fine if school actually matched up to real life in any meaningful way. Past about 10, it doesn’t. In my adult life, I have never needed to analyse a Shakespeare play or write an essay comparing poems.
Quote:A person who has skill must impart that skill upon a person without the skill. This, of course happens all the time.
Sure. But do you grab random coworkers and educate them on the new IT system at work? Or do you hang around and go “I can help” when people struggle with the new IT system? Or do you hang a poster up with “IT training” written on it? There is a vast difference between the first method and the latter two. Traditional school-as-usual does the first method.
Quote:The lack of compensation isn't even really what slavery, at its root is.
Uhh…yeh, it is. See the dictionary definition above.
Quote: My step-son is *not* treated as property, he is treated as a participant.
I guarantee you that your stepson is not treated as a participant – your stepson may or may not be treated as property. But he will not be treated as a participant. Your stepson may be treated as an empty vessel to be filled or an animal to be fattened. But just weighing the pig doesn't make it any fatter
But he will be told what to learn, when to learn it and how to learn it. Your stepson will be told how in depth he can learn it to. If he’s interested in bugs when the class is doing spiders? Too bad, so sad. That is not participating. If he’s ready for 7th-grade maths in 5th grade? If he still needs 3rd grade Maths in 5th grade? Too bad.
He will also be expected to announce when he needs the bathroom in front of 29ish other kids. If you don’t see why that might be a bit dehumanising, I can’t help you.
Quote:This applies to our house at least. This means he has expectations and reward, when he experiences failure - we all do. When he earns success we all are thankful.
What goes on in your house is irrelevant to whether school is slavery or not. That would be a counter-argument to “You treat me like a slave”, not a counter-argument to school being slavery.
Quote:This is how the school system operates in my mind.
Fair enough. I just don’t agree with you.
Quote: But truly, the idea of School as Slavery is poisonous to me (and I believe to your general cause) because it takes a base, emotionally charged term and applies it generally.
Why? The term “Wage Slavery” does exactly the same thing and is far less accurate than school as slavery, per the dictionary definition.
Quote:The idea that one must gain knowledge - via the logic that he at least presents - will always be slavery. Homeschooling, Unschooling, Private Schooling.... all the alternatives suggested become slavery. Why? Because each of them involve an uncompensated learner.
With the key difference that he has some control over his learning. Your stepson could also create an online business as part of his studies and thus be compensated that way.
Quote:*School is Bad - this, as the main content of the site says in very clear words, is not true.
It’s fair enough for you to feel that way. This is something where we disagree though.
Quote:School is an institution, yes, and with that come a series of pros and cons. A long and deep list that may even be unfathomable.
Sure. There are several cons that come from the said institution being the only well-known one. How many times have you heard people tell their kids that school is compulsory when it isn’t?
Quote:But as much as school is *bad* for one person, it is good for another.
Right. My brother and I wear different shoe sizes. My shoe size would be bad for my brother (way too small) and my brother’s shoe size would be bad for me (way too big). That doesn’t make either size ‘wrong’ – it just means that we’re different sizes. If there was only one shoe size publicized, one of us would be in trouble.
And it would be cruel to make us wear the same shoe size. That doesn’t mean there’s anything inherently wrong with either size shoe though.
Quote: I take strong issue with my step-son attempting to convert people who enjoy and gain from the school system something that pleases them.
Is he attempting to convince them or is he attempting to convert them? If you were removed from the situation, would you regard him as more of an annoying religious fundamentalist who attempts to convert everyone to their chosen religion or would you see him as more of an inspirational speaker?
Quote: My second son is a great example of how one person's negativity towards school can result in another person's. My second son regards my step-son as an idol. He hears that "School sucks" and wonders why.
New ideas make people thoughtful. That’s as it should be. Your stepson has made you think. Otherwise, you wouldn’t be posting about it.
Quote:He is told by my step-son that it is a bad place, without context, and becomes nervous. Once he gets to school - he loves it and learns a lot.
Are you sure? Because ultimately, your second son actually goes to that school and is more likely to know what it’s actually like than you do. Could there be another reason that your second son is nervous about enviromental factors and it's just bad timing?
For example, I liked school in that I liked learning. I was very very nervous about school though. That was due to bad bullying. I used to throw up out of sheer terror/nerves regarding bullies. Don’t get the wrong idea, I wasn’t making myself throw up – I was just that scared.
Quote:I also know that my step-son is attempting to "unbrainwash" his friends who enjoy school. I don't know that this general concept came from your group - truth be told, but I think that it is dangerous to force opinions on those who disagree (which resulted in my resolution to participate in this conversation and learn from you).
And that’s his decision. Yes, there are influences but haven’t you ever asked if you should shave or something? Ultimately, this is a forum which nobody has to read if they don’t want to.
Quote:Ultimately, school has bad things about it - all schooling and all alternatives to schooling will have this! No system is perfect! But school is not bad because for all the successful dropouts, there are also successful stayins.
Yes. Only clothing has one-size-fits all. But have you ever seen anyone cut shoes up so that they fit? Or have you ever seen people use a shoehorn to ram on shoes that are clearly too small for them? Or do people buy the right-size shoes for them?
Let’s say you have three children with varying shoe sizes. Your oldest child is a size 8, your middle child is a size 6 and your youngest is a size 4. Let’s say that your friend has the same spread of children and shoe sizes.
Your way of dealing with this ‘problem’ is to buy one pair of size-8 shoes, one pair of size-6 shoes and one pair of size-4 shoes. Your friend’s way is to buy three pairs of size 6 shoes.
Your friend’s middle child has size 6 feet so she’ll be fine and will be quite comfortable in her new shoes. Your friend’s oldest child is going to have very squished feet though while the youngest will look like a clown.
Whose solution sounds more sensible to you? Would you intervene if you witnessed your friend’s solution to the problem?
Quote:*Sorely missing Opportunity Costs - So the idea above, that you must sacrifice something to gain something else is essentially reflected in the opportunity cost.
Yes? Isn’t that what an opportunity cost is? I’m sure you’re trying to make a point here. I’m just not sure what it is.
Quote:I feel strongly that some of the positives of public school are not hitting home well as this site seems to be providing a lot of negativity for my step-son.
So you feel that some of the positives of public school aren’t hitting well because your son goes on a forum that is negative about school? Either he already agreed or your son can be swayed really easily.
Quote:For instance, if he unschools, then he loses the chance to play in marching band during a College Bowl Game in Atlanta this year.
Does your stepson know this? Does this matter to him? Does your son want to play in marching band or do you want him to play in marching band?
Quote:For instance, he benefits greatly from social interaction for personal reasons - I will not go into details, but this goes beyond just making friends, or what most parents might be concerned about.
Now, I obviously don’t really know what’s going on here because of lack of details. Though if you’re concerned about something like an autism-spectrum disorder, your son likely isn’t getting the anywhere near the amount of quality social interaction you think he is.
It’s more likely that bullying or something equally toxic is his sole social interaction. And in any case, if that is what you’re concerned about, he likely needs explicit instruction in any case. If I’m right, drama will be one of the things he most needs (because otherwise, he is at huge risk of coming off as creepy due to the explicit thing not seeming natural) and drama will be one of the first things cut in pursuit of higher test scores.
Is it possible that he doesn't get as much out of socializing as you think he does? Introversion or something, I don't know.
Quote: Even at the most basic level - he gets away from his parents for the day!
That goal would also be accomplished just at well, at, say, a Summerhill-type school. Better-accomplished in fact.
Quote:*School "Survival" - In all, I think that school survival, as a conceptual endeavor is not what this site has taken upon itself. Survival of any type commits oneself to some objective. Surviving life is about completing it until the end, how then is surviving school about trying alternatives. Surviving life is not about alternatives, it is about using the tools at your disposal to complete the journey. This is another reason I have joined - my ONLY goal is to help my step-son have a complete journey.
Take a look at this:
http://uk.askmen.com/money/career_250/26...hate.html.
Notice how most of those options are ones a student can’t apply to school as usual?
What is your definition of a "complete journey"?
Quote:OK - so, that is a good start! I welcome any comments at all! I enjoy engaging in intelligent conversation and I am open to alternate viewpoints to those I personally feel. I do not judge and I do not dismiss without considering anything presented in a reasonably thoughtful, sincere and mature fashion!
Sure. I would like to once again, congratulate you for attempting to figure out what the opposing viewpoint is.
Quote:Oh, yes - why am I "pro-school"? Because it worked for me. It worked for my friends. It worked for my friends of friends. The only person that I know that did not work (ie, who graduated school and then subsequently failed) is a friend of mine - it is a sad story, in a way...
I’m not sure that “It worked for me” is a brilliant argument. That’s like me saying that because I have a size-6 foot and all my friends and all my friends’ friends have size-6 feet, size 6 shoes work for everybody. It doesn’t work that way.
Ultimately though, you only actually know that it worked for you. It’s entirely possible that your friends just went through the motions. It’s entirely possible that it did a number on someone’s health (whichever PIMES sphere that was in). You simply don’t know.
Quote:Why am I "pro-public school" - I believe that affording *any* educational experience comes at immense cost to someone - be it the most generous of parents who are giving up their chance for income to be your homeschooler to the infrastructure and teachers in the giant buildings - nothing is free.
Sure. But you (school-system-you, not-you personally) but you don’t get to charge and restrict and claim that things are free without somebody calling you out on your bullshit. The school system is neither libre nor gratis.
The teachers did elect to go to the school though and they chose that in the knowledge that would get paid. They also have protections in place which students don’t have. Constructive dismissal is actually enforced against whereas ‘ordinary’ bullying isn’t.
Quote: The public school system takes our money to afford the equal opportunity for the most people.
Then why do poor districts consistently underperform compared to richer distracts, time and time again, when you control for other factors?
Quote:The idea of testing attempts to ensure that our society's committed investment in the future of the world is not in vain.
There are other methods that can be done far far more cheaply. When you allow more autonomy, you spend less time on discipline and more time on learning. And sure, I get what the idea of testing is. I just don’t think it really works. Weighing the pig alone will not make your pig any fatter - feeding it will.
Quote: Is all of this done perfectly? Absolutely not! Is some of it OK? Absolutely!
Yes, school does provide some useful things. Just like a size-6 shoe is pefect for a size-6 foot but is utterly useless for a size-4 foot or a size-8 foot. If you only sell size-6 shoes, you aren’t going to reach most of the population.
And yes, school does some useful things. It’s a bit like being given free ice-cream in hell though. It just doesn’t quite make up for everything else.
Quote:Because it is public schooling can we work together to bring about change? Absolutely! Can that be done on a home school level for the unified betterment of all society - only on a case-by-case basis.
No. Parents and teachers can work together to bring about change. The students who are the only ones that have to be affected by the change don’t get a say at all. Parents can just not go to school, teachers can quit. Students don’t really have either option on their own.
Quote:Anyway... I hope for some response, I look forward to it! Have a great evening!
Let’s see, closing remarks: The narrative in great-great-great-grandfather’s day was “Learn a trade and you’ll have a job for life.” That hasn’t been true for a long time.
And then the narrative was “Get into a good school, get good grades, get into a good university, get good grades and be guaranteed a good job.” That narrative isn’t true any longer either but it was something that was used, time and time, again as justification but it has been used as a control tactic long after it was false.