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I wasn't good enough at encouraging people to be kinder, and removing people who refuse to be kind. Encouraging people is hard, and removing people creates conflict, and I hate conflict... so that's why I wasn't better at it.

I was a very, very sensitive teen. The atmosphere of this forum as it is now, if it had existed in 1996, would probably have upset me far more than it would have helped.

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Thank you to the few people who have tried to understand my point of view so far. I really, really appreciate you guys. You are beautiful people.

Everyone else: If after everything I've said so far, you still don't understand my motivations, I think it's unlikely that you will. We're just too different. Maybe someday in the future it might make sense, but until then, there's no point in arguing about it. I don't have the time or the energy for arguing anymore. I will focus my time and energy on people who support me, and those who need help.

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Finding a system that works. Socialism, Libertarians, Marxists etc
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MurkScribe Away
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Post: #1
Finding a system that works. Socialism, Libertarians, Marxists etc

This is a rather I don't know how to describe it, but a rather complicated issue to talk about. But I just feel that the system in the U.S or other first world countries aren't very satisfied or content with their lives. But I would just like this thread to discuss your thoughts and ideas for a better happier society. Also as well as achieving that society and ways for change. [/Center]

For me

-abolish compulsory schooling
-removal of the bureaucracy and control of the public education system
-localizing schools with non hierarchical and democratic control
-non curriculum
- a democratic workplace revolving around meeting the needs of the people and non prioritized. No one single group of people milking on the profits.
- removal of the military? possibly I don't know, I'm still thinking about if the military is even necessary. needz more research.
- finding alternative energy sources and no longer relying on fossil fuels.
03-09-2015 07:59 AM
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brainiac3397 Offline
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Post: #2
RE: Finding a system that works. Socialism, Libertarians, Marxists etc

Quote:-abolish compulsory schooling
>I'd prefer eradicating compulsory schooling and replacing with incentive education. Give people a good reason to actually go to school vs being forced. Considering human nature and the ignorance of many people, totally allowing freedom might harm society as a whole because people won't bother sending their kids to school at all.

Quote:-removal of the bureaucracy and control of the public education system
>Being a statist, I'd rather have the government in control of education rather than a private institution. For one, the government must answer to it's citizens whereas a private group has no obligations as long as they're making a profit. As for bureaucracy, I think it should be made clear that bureaucracy is what allowed for the successful expansion of national infrastructures and services. Meaning bureaucracy made government more efficient as well as more connected with the citizens.

Quote:-localizing schools with non hierarchical and democratic control
>Who is democratically controlling, and you may want to clarify on "non-hierarchical". And what do you mean by localizing because schools are based on local districts anyway.

Quote:-non curriculum
>I find that questionable because on the basic level, a curriculum guarantees an equal educational foundation. How would it help if some areas lacked math but were superior in English while others were vice-versa. If it became location based, you'd be discriminating against people who don't reside in that geographic location, as well as establishing some sort of exclusive area.

Quote:- a democratic workplace revolving around meeting the needs of the people and non prioritized. No one single group of people milking on the profits.
>Workplaces are not easy to run democratically, especially if they grow to a larger size. Another issue would be who gets say? Would you allow the janitor to decide how your bank should proceed, with equal say but no experience or knowledge of finance and banking? I also disagree with the notion that the workplace should meet the needs of the people while somehow sharing profits. If they spend time meeting the needs of the people, there won't be profits anyway.

Quote:- removal of the military? possibly I don't know, I'm still thinking about if the military is even necessary. needz more research.
>A military is always necessary. If a nation collapses, who'll be representative of the central government? Nobody? then you should expect ambitious folk to prepare their plans for carving up the land for themselves. You don't need to be militarist or expansionist, but a military exists for defense and a military is always necessary, though it must be under the authority of a single body

Quote:- finding alternative energy sources and no longer relying on fossil fuels.
>Getting off fossil fuels will not be a quick transformation. There are so many innovations and technology that rely on fossil fuels, which means you'd have to find suitable and practical alternatives for every single one. From electricity, to planes, to ships, to cars to whatever else fossil fuels allow(like petroleum products that saturate the markets). I find it questionable when people expect to get rid of fossil fuels because often times they don't understand just how integrated fossil fuels are to our globe. It's not just fuel or electricity. It's many of the products we use.

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(06-14-2013 08:02 AM)Potato Wrote:  watch the fuq out, we've got an "intellectual" over here.

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03-09-2015 12:23 PM
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Missile Offline
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Post: #3
Finding a system that works. Socialism, Libertarians, Marxists etc

You do realize that lots of products around you are made of oil. Even if we do go all solar & wind, it's still going to be drilled out of the ground to make stuff like plastic

Wake up people, and look at life around you
http://debunking911.com/?no_redirect=true

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03-13-2015 12:06 PM
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brainiac3397 Offline
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Post: #4
RE: Finding a system that works. Socialism, Libertarians, Marxists etc

Y u ruin my wall of text.

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(06-14-2013 08:02 AM)Potato Wrote:  watch the fuq out, we've got an "intellectual" over here.

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03-13-2015 01:04 PM
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MurkScribe Away
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Post: #5
Finding a system that works. Socialism, Libertarians, Marxists etc

Quote:I'd prefer eradicating compulsory schooling and replacing with incentive education. Give people a good reason to actually go to school vs being forced. Considering human nature and the ignorance of many people, totally allowing freedom might harm society as a whole because people won't bother sending their kids to school at all.

Well when you said before in the webchat instead of eradicating compulsory schooling and replacing it with incevitvized education, you want a core curriculum pre-approved by the national government and other classes to be again pre-approved by the state and the use of national testing for the want of data.

And with your human nature statement, do you think people will ever ever learn if there's no bureaucracy or national government core curriculum set for them? How will we create a population of intellectuals and overall good complete people?
Quote:I find that questionable because on the basic level, a curriculum guarantees an equal educational foundation. How would it help if some areas lacked math but were superior in English while others were vice-versa. If it became location based, you'd be discriminating against people who don't reside in that geographic location, as well as establishing some sort of exclusive area.
What do you mean by an "equal educational foundation"? Do you mean for everyone to be well versed in the basics, and what is the basic core curriculum?

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03-16-2015 06:48 AM
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brainiac3397 Offline
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Post: #6
Finding a system that works. Socialism, Libertarians, Marxists etc

People are evidently capable of learning considering how we progressed. However, as knowledge grows, it must be recorded. The records then must be kept. The keepers must be protected. The protectors must be watched. The watchers must be knowledgeable. Ideas can be founded. and lost, and refounded. They can be twisted, corrupted or even lies too.

My opinion is that in this time and age, having a responsible authority take actions to create a curriculum that works(prepared by experts and scholars, not businessmen and politicians) and an effective bureaucracy to maintain it, will benefit society by establishing the basics of knowledge for every students as well as ensuring that education, not competition or attendance, becomes priority.

By an equal educational foundation, I mean a curriculum that IS general education. This foundation will serve to enhance a student's abilities and interest in fields that motivate them, without taking over as a primary concern. I don't want to give them tools, but also give them blueprints that they're supposed to follow. I want to give them tools, teach them to use the tools, then let them decide what to build and how to build it. If they want to try something else, it would benefit them to have knowledge of at least the basics so if they want to tap into it, they can and then learn more of it as they use it.

Like instead of current system that makes you take chemistry, biology, physics etc, a system that teaches you the "fundamentals of science"(because a)all sciences have something in common and b)every science has a basic level that can always be built upon at any time). If a student finds himself interested in the physics science stuff, he can then choose to further specialize in that area.

Of course there are a few dilemmas. One is that society currently considers education=wealth, which may leave students choosing to specialize in things that they're told will make them rich because of media and parents. Another is to find ways to motivate students into pursuing their goals without feeling hesitant due to other superficial factors. So basically such a system requires a radical transformation of how society perceives education, as well as specific types of education(as in my opinion that "poetry is much education as engineering even if they aren't the same topic") There shouldn't be an assumption that someone who studies philosophy or something is "less smarter" than someone who pursues engineering.

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(06-14-2013 08:02 AM)Potato Wrote:  watch the fuq out, we've got an "intellectual" over here.

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03-16-2015 07:17 AM
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xcriteria Offline
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Post: #7
Finding a system that works. Socialism, Libertarians, Marxists etc

Ok, lots to discuss here. Lisa and I are also planning a hangout series to discuss models of education, which some of the above fits right into.

One issue with local control is that local can still mean "factory model," "sit down, shut up" schooling. Many private schools and even alternative schools, that really do have substantial local, even school-level control, operate more or less the same as big government schools.

In the end, public school districts do tend to have local control, even though they're now often being coerced by states and bribed / threatened by federal Dept. of Ed to get high test scores.

Ultimately, a lot *could* happen locally if the people in locales agreed on what they'd like to change and got vocal about it. Despite the meddling of the federal government using offers of money, most education funding does come from states and local government, so if they want to change things, they can.

Re: standardized and mandated curriculum

There are surely some things that nearly all people will benefit from learning. Having an education can benefit the individual a lot, and overall, having a knowledgable, aware population benefits society all a whole. Many of us would much rather live among others who aren't completely ignorant. So, education is important.

But, how to go about getting an educated population? Factory-model, one-size-fits-all schooling has successfully brought about nearly universal literacy in many countries. But, ]the system as it stands is deeply flawed and out of touch with 21st-century learners and life... and it leaves many people hating learning, wasting large amounts of their time, and not learning much that they actually remember or are able to apply in the current or future life.

Re: standardized curriculum, the reality is, people differ in what, how, and when they learn best. Forcing everyone to learn most of the same set of standardized content (which many don't learn, despite the best efforts of teachers, and many more soon forget) doesn't provide very good education, frankly. If you start with identifying learner interests and strengths, and work to connect those with learning, things work so much better. Likewise, if you can demonstrate to a learner why learning certain things is life-relevant, and involve them in crafting their own education, they'll be much more motivated than pushing them through the well-known one-size-fits-all paradigm of education.

@brainiac, your points from above are worth diving into in more depth, but what do you think about the need to transform education to be based on individuals and support the human desire to learn and figure out life, vs. factory-model processing?

Peter Gray & allies launching the Alliance for Self-directed Education

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03-16-2015 10:55 PM
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xcriteria Offline
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RE: Finding a system that works. Socialism, Libertarians, Marxists etc

re: fossil fuels, oil is used for more than just energy, but the bulk of it is used for energy, and that doesn't have to remain the case.

Also:

- there's already quite a bit of progress toward alternative, renewable, clean(er) sources of energy

- plastics and so on can be recycled

Peter Gray & allies launching the Alliance for Self-directed Education

ASDE Newsletters: #1 Announcement | #2 History of ASDE | #6 Education Liberation


School Survival & Catalyst Learning Network featured on AlternativestoSchool's blog
“Mom, Dad, can I stop going to school?”

Crucial Conversations: Tools for Talking when the Stakes are High

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03-16-2015 11:03 PM
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xcriteria Offline
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Finding a system that works. Socialism, Libertarians, Marxists etc

re: democratic workplaces -- There's nothing stopping people from building democratic workplaces. Some exist to varying degrees. But some workplaces just work more efficiently for everyone when there's a division of labor and some people run things and offer work to others. There are certainly many changes I'd advocate for all workplaces, but some things do come down to personal preference.

Here's one list of companies that offer some form of democratic workplaces: http://www.worldblu.com/awardee-profiles/2014.php

Peter Gray & allies launching the Alliance for Self-directed Education

ASDE Newsletters: #1 Announcement | #2 History of ASDE | #6 Education Liberation


School Survival & Catalyst Learning Network featured on AlternativestoSchool's blog
“Mom, Dad, can I stop going to school?”

Crucial Conversations: Tools for Talking when the Stakes are High

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03-16-2015 11:07 PM
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