Greetings. I'm new.

[Aureate]

Or, more accurately, newly registered; I stumbled upon this site many years ago and returned intermittently to peruse it as a guest. I have neither a Facebook nor a Twitter account and have always felt somewhat averse to registering usernames, lest it become the impetus for my addiction to a site I know will rob me of time to think and of productivity (respectively with regard to importance). I have furthermore never posted on a forum before School Survival's, and so it is with an empowering sense of crossing an invisible threshold that I type this. I have decided that unlike social media and entertainment sites, I may look back on the time I spend commenting on and creating forum threads here with satisfaction that I have furthered a worthy cause and advanced my own understanding of my life's pursuits with respect to youth rights and compulsory education.

I will now, cognizant of the irony, sacrifice hours of sleep that would help me perform at school to tell you my story.

My journey began a few days before the commencement of my kindergarten year, when I attended a mandatory informational meeting organized by my to-be school. Parents were required to attend with us, so the crowd rapidly exceeded the maximum capacity of the front carpet where we were to seat ourselves, and the growing congregation spilled onto the hard floor. Adults made boisterous small talk while all but the most outgoing children remained inches from their parents and eyed their future classmates warily. Passed around were yellow sheets, copies of letters to our guardians outlining the year's lessons and ultimate goals. Among those goals was the acquisition of a basic understanding of phonics, as well as the development of a modest repertoire of sight words. My father handed me the letter, and the hum of conversation rose still. I was faintly aware that my ability to read fluently was uncommon, so being a prestige-seeking little narcissist, I naturally began to read the letter aloud. The noise died in increments, and soon I was the sole speaker in the room. I completed the letter, stumbling not once and placing emphasis where necessary. Until the conclusion of the meeting, my father had to fend off compliments aplenty from the other parents.

"How did you teach him that?"

"When did he learn to read?"

To this day, he refers to it as his "proudest moment", and I too went to bed that night too elated to sleep. But I soon began to wonder whether pride was the emotion due; with my reading of the letter, I consigned myself officially to a year of vapidity, waiting for hours to pass as the teacher taught phonics and sight words.

Late in the year, breaking the monotony, came a day where we would be allowed to experience a day of first grade as preparation for our coming school career. Since I attended "half-day" kindergarten, an adjustment would surely be necessary to cope with the "full-day" duration of all the future grades. It was equally boring and twice and long. I started crying about three-quarters of the way through; it remains to this day the only time in my memory that I was literally bored to tears.

Years passed before I arrived at sixth grade. I express this briefly, but know that for each letter in that sentence, I tired a month of misery. My parents knew from my regular requests to stay home that I was bored, so my father ran for and secured a chair on the local Board of Education, whereby he pushed for the implementation of a gifted program for middle school students. He succeeded, and I tested into the program. I rejoiced: my boredom would surely be at an end, for I would at last be challenged. Indeed, my parents and teachers defined my condition prior to this program as a symptom of an "unchallenged" mind, so I was certain that given proper challenge, I would come to look forward to school days.

I learned shortly that difficulty does not entail enjoyment. It should have been obvious. Consider the adults in your own life: many would find the study of meteorology a challenging task, but by no means would they be lining up to begin. Substitute meteorology with a set of disciplines just as arbitrary, and you will be able to visualize my time in middle school. What's worse, the "challenging" nature of the classes was almost exclusively the result of unusually rigorous demands for recollection and regurgitation. For instance, the social studies teacher regarded her class as comparable in difficulty to AP Euro, a high school class which would later teach me the very meaning of rote memorization.

In time I came to another disillusioning realization. My parents had spoken for as long as I could remember about the overriding importance of "understanding the content", and since I tended to be a perfectionist about grades, they were careful not to emphasize their desire for me to reap straight A's. This facade met its painful death when I received a 70% on a science assignment for not using complete sentences (the teacher was captivated with the idea of "learning to follow instructions". I could write paragraphs about the inefficiency and unfairness of the assignment as an educational tool, but I would be preaching to the choir on School Survival). I arrived home casually to a concerned mother.

"Did you get a 70% on a science assignment?" she asked (Home Access Center reveals our grades immediately to our parents, and mine watch it like a hawk).

"Yes," I said, "but I didn't deserve it."

"Well, Dad's pretty mad."

I was skeptical. My father always had my back in confrontations with school authorities (another interesting chapter of my Elementary school experience), and I expected that in the odd event that he truly was worried about the score, he would listen to my explanation and understand.

My skepticism proved egregiously misplaced. My father was furious. He sent me to my bedroom (a punishment akin to an extended time-out, where the punished must ask for permission to leave). I offered not a word in my defense; it would have been inaudible beneath his howling reprimands. Even after I was allowed to exit my room, and I tearfully proclaimed my innocence, I was offered no apology. I lost a great deal of respect for my parents that day, and were I required to pinpoint the precise initiation of decline in our relationship, I would gesture without hesitation to that science assignment.

That disastrous episode cost me more than respect for my parents; all the progress I made in recognizing knowledge as a motivator rather than grades was undone. I worked tirelessly to achieve straight A's. B's became a source of deep personal shame.

Moreover, I was hardly immune to the usual childhood complaints, perhaps the most famous being "When will we ever use this?". That and other stereotypical but logically sound objections to schoolwork reminded me that the letters I slaved for were scarcely worth the cost of their ink. I memorized for tests, forgot, and repeated. I carefully stroked the egos of vindictive and arrogant teachers to assure my grades remained excellent. I addressed teachers formally and allowed them to call me by my first name (an immersive lesson in Jim Crow laws, which you will find with a Google search applied that same indignity to blacks in the segregated south.)

Middle school passed like a rainy day, and I somehow retained the perception that high school would allow students to pursue specialized interests. My long-dormant embers flashed with intrigue at the sheer number of classes and the radical new concept of "electives".

Disappointment again. I learned that high school doesn't free people from "core subjects" because they demonstrate adequacy or even precocity. As such, electives will always sing backup to math, English, science, and social studies. The best of students at those core subjects are given the apparently auspicious option to enter Honors or even AP classes, which do not represent freedom to move on from the basic foundations of societal literacy, but rather the opportunity to indulge in a closer examination of their minutae.

This inability to advance from fields of study except by aging led me to a couple of interesting but depressing conclusions:

(1) That school is one of two places in the world to value time spent over goal achieved (I'll leave you to guess the other).

(2) That an adult mind placed in a child's body would be entirely incapable of demonstrating his proficiency to an extent earning of his freedom. In other words, if you are as or more capable than the average adult, don't expect that sufficiency to gain you release. A child is stupid until proven smart, and I have yet to find proof of smartness that a school will accept (I received a 29 on the ACT in 7th grade without preparation, eclipsing my school district's average for graduating seniors, and though I made my intention to leave crystal clear, I was offered no exit).

16 years old, I now trudge through junior year. I used to engage my parents in nightly arguments for the validity of unschooling, but I am at last resigned to wait. I've found myself a semi-comfortable rut wherein I can awake at 6:00 each morning, eat breakfast, stumble through a school day, complete homework, and repeat. I live in a mental world rather distant from the content of my classes, but my dislike--dare I say hatred--for compulsory education remains with me, and I often fantasize about championing a youth rights movement so that my future grandchildren may be able to, if not escape the confines of their schools, more simply negotiate the terms of their release. I have realized that a full reworking of societal understanding of youth is in order just to pave the way for such a change. I fear occasionally that when I leave school I'll cease to care for the plight of the affected, but at risk of seeming histrionic, it stole from me my childhood, and that will not be a transgression easily forgotten.

I could write a complete book on the failures of the school system; I did my best to exclude them from this greatly abridged memoir, which I intended only to provide you with the gist of my prior life.

I ask lastly that you note the abruptness of its ending. It feels so unfinished, and I suppose that's why I'm here. I hope that my story will continue on school-survival.net.

To those of you serious about fighting compulsory education and adultism, contact me, and we'll discuss what steps a few unknown teenagers might be able to take on the path to equality.

[MrAnonymous]

Your English lexicon is colossal, even more so than this wall of text you present. Welcome to School Survival! Also, may I apologize that the compulsory institution you were forced to attend has failed you. Maybe, just maybe, you'll type text longer than xcriteria.

[Ky]

As a self-proclaimed cunning linguist and aspiring writer, I can only think of one word to express how I feel about what you've said: Wow.

My history with the public school system - and indoctrination, disguised as education, in general - is very similar to yours, though I have the benefit (and trauma, sadly) of an additional two years' experience. I, too, reveled in my intelligence during the early years only to experience great boredom as my classmates slowly learned things I already knew. I was introduced, by my parents, to the false difficulty of a gifted program and the rigorous workload of middle school, and learned that adversity was not an ideal replacement to boredom (and I experienced both in sequence throughout the years). I was deceived by the allure of electives in high school, and have put off going to college due to my increasing skepticism of the promises of educational liberty. And, finally, my parents ignored my petitions and even my well-being, and, in doing so, demonstrated an illogical preference for the first letter of the alphabet to show up on my "work" above any genuine successes on my part.

Though I have not had much to say to this community in recent days, I would like to affirm that you are among friends here. Welcome to School Survival!

[brainiac3397]

Parents watched my grades like hawks too.

However, my lawyer-like eloquence was successful enough to divert their anger to the teacher who gave me the grade(my favorite opening statement being "It's the teacher's fault, they don't know what they're doing!").

As for the naming, I've decided that I shall be titled properly as "Mr.Brainiac"(substitute brainiac for my real last name) and that a first-name basis would only be established with those I respect(so some professors refer to me by first name since I got along just well with them). I'd go so far as to use Sir, but supposedly it's arrogant to do so without being knighted but unfortunately American citizens can not be knighted...

If you peruse my extensive collection of posts on this site, some of which being verbose and others sparse and some just nonsensical, you may realize the extent of my eccentricity. But enough about me, seeing as I've already make 8k+ posts. You can join the IRC if you ever get dismally bored(one can happily be bored) and there should be somebody on there.

So welcome to SS!

PS:Not a commie per se despite the avatar. Let's just say...it's complicated.

[SoulRiser]

Welcome to SS

Quite an interesting story you have so far. I found it amusing how shocked everyone was at your ability to read early on.

I remember in Grade 1, the teacher was teaching us about numbers, but would only go up to number 10. I thought that was ridiculous, because the clock on the wall clearly goes up to 12, so it's not like we couldn't see she's blatantly withholding information. I think I could count to 100 and beyond when I was 4 already... so that was disappointing.

I had similar problems with grades, except they were more focused on maths & science (my dad used to teach those subjects at school, so he wasn't very tolerant of me getting less than "acceptable" grades for those).

Quote:I often fantasize about championing a youth rights movement so that my future grandchildren may be able to, if not escape the confines of their schools, more simply negotiate the terms of their release. I have realized that a full reworking of societal understanding of youth is in order just to pave the way for such a change. I fear occasionally that when I leave school I'll cease to care for the plight of the affected, but at risk of seeming histrionic, it stole from me my childhood, and that will not be a transgression easily forgotten.

Well... the solution for your own children is simple enough: don't send them to school in the first place.

Changing society's views on people under 18 is another story altogether though...

[Missile]

Добро пожаловать на выживание в школе,

I don't shed

[xcriteria]

Welcome to School Survival! And, thanks for the extended intro.

One thing to note is, a number of us are part of a broader network of people across ages, including parents and teachers, who agree that "factory-model," coercive schooling is bad, and who want to change things. There are growing numbers of learner-centric, choice-based learning environments ("schools," sort of) that are providing options beyond school-as-usual or homeschooling. There's a movement of Teachers Throwing Out Grades, and StuVoice.org is working on raising interest in listening to students. In short, more and more people are realizing a need to do things differently.

So, while change may take a while for some people, it may be, and is, happening now for at least some people, and I think it's just the beginning.

I'm interested in what can be done to help students opt out of coercive schooling, which generally requires those conversations with parents. If your parents wouldn't listen to you, might they listen to someone else? Also, you may have already tried this approach, but, what's the point of school, for them? If it's to get into college, there are other paths in, which many people don't realize. I was able to drop out as a junior, after going to my parents with a specific plan for dropping out and going to college (a year early.) Even though I eventually started questioning college, I did well in my first year of it, and it was a good experience, far better than staying in high school would have been! And, I had a solid half a year before that to basically unschool and de-school.

Another thing is, I'm working with some others on planning an online learning program that would basically be unschooling with some mentorship, networking, opportunities for meaningful feedback, and optional challenges designed to actually be meaningful and interesting. The idea is based on in-person programs like North Star and Open Road, but adapted to be online. One aspect of this is to have something to explain to parents that involves experienced educators, who can show parents that learning is happening, and develop a college-friendly transcript for those who want to go to college.

Beyond that, so many of us are talking in different places about how to change things for individuals, and in general. Much of this conversation occurs on FB and somewhat G+, but also in the School Survival chat (where some people are usually around), and Google Hangouts.

It'd be awesome if you connected through any of those!

Meanwhile, any ideas what you might like to do in the future, like once you're free from parental authority?

[RustedOutEntry]

Welcome dude. Don't take life so seriously and try to have fun. If you parents are being ass' about grades just shrug it off and continue on with your life. As long as you have above a 3.0-3.2 GPA in high-school you'll be fine. Don't get mixed up in any unnecessary drama. I'm sure somebody as smart as you will have a decent and happy life years from now. Just focus on the future. I haven't slept in 2 days so this could be a bunch of malarkey. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[lisafromjackson]

By the way, Aureate, is your name a reference to the book Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell?

[Sociopath]

Welcome aboard. As a legal adult, I can tell you adultism is bullshit. Fight discrimination! Any and all forms! You got quite the writing ability but there's no need to be so formal, unless that's who you really are. Have fun here.

[Aureate]

Thank you everyone for kindly receiving what I might term my "premier post", and thank you DoA for your particularly warm welcome.

I am especially honored to meet you, SoulRiser. It is a strange feeling to hold even the momentary attention of a long ago idol, like I'm interacting with my own past self. I feel confronted with something of a personal celebrity, and I'm oddly compelled to introduce you to the invisible but lively correspondence you've had with me through your site.

In sixth grade, when my disgust with school grew large enough to manifest itself in a web search, I typed "i hate school" into Internet Explorer and pressed enter. It was more of an assertion of fearlessness than a quest for like-minded people; I proved to myself, in a retrospectively humorous act of defiance, that I was unafraid of allowing contrarian entries into my otherwise pristine web search history. school-survival.net was the first result. The block of text beneath read something akin to "It's okay to hate school! And you're not alone." Again, I'm taken by the consideration that the very person who typed each keystroke of that text into her computer will be reading this-and I repeat myself, but it seems such a haunting reunion with the bygone. I clicked the link and almost instantly found a short list of 11-or-so reasons to hate school. Some were worded in an edgy way that I was, admittedly, not fond of--I wanted very much to distance myself from the impending stereotype of teenage rebellion--and none were novel to me. But they had a different and very positive effect which outweighed my reluctance tenfold. They affirmed what for years I could only suspect: that I wasn't alone in my growing sentiments. For a few days, I rushed home from school to scour the contents of the site, learning of unschooling and of democratic schools. I was led next to an article by Sarah Fitz-Claridge entitled Who WOULDN'T Be School Phobic?. The article took a similar affirmative approach to your own, offering the phrase, "you are not alone," in its very first sentence. The combined impact of you and Fitz-Claridge sent me on a literary journey that led me to whom I now consider my most looked-up-to (no offense) advocate for youth rights, John Holt. I mention him because beyond founding unschooling with his book How Children Learn, he presented a radical and captivating vision of youth rights with Escape From Childhood, one of his tragically lesser-known works. It is because of John Holt, Sarah Fitz-Claridge, and you, that I am who I am. I thank you, and encourage you to consider the unnamed guests who traverse your site, surely travelling through your records by the hundreds. I invite you to scroll slowly through that list and wonder at how you've affected them.

Quote:I'm interested in what can be done to help students opt out of coercive schooling, which generally requires those conversations with parents. If your parents wouldn't listen to you, might they listen to someone else? Also, you may have already tried this approach, but, what's the point of school, for them? If it's to get into college, there are other paths in, which many people don't realize.

Thank you for your reply and your concern, xcriteria. It is heartening to hear of such promising strides towards fairness as StuVoice, Teachers Throwing Out Grades, and your own planned program. I tried to follow every line of reasoning I could generate, walking first the beaten paths of John Holt, Alfie Kohn, Grace Llewellyn, and to a much lesser extent, John Taylor Gatto. Before logical discussions got interesting with my father, they were apt to degenerate into every parent's shameless declaration: "because I said so!" In a different mood, he would prove he did and still does have logical cause (as he sees it) for his insistence upon my completion of high school. As you correctly guessed, his reasoning is that "We know school sucks, but you need it for college". I've tried to press that point in the past, citing most notably Grace Llewellyn's individual contacting of each major college in regard to their policy on unschooled applicants. She found that nearly all were aligned invitingly to the idea. On hearing this, my father would become defensive and angry, and it was clear that I had hit his personal bedrock, the immovable axiom on which all his debates rest.

"Your mom and I thought school was necessary for college, and we did our best, okay? When you finish high school, we won't make you go to college. This is all we required of you. Can you hold that against us?"

This response is almost verbatim, and it arose on at least two occasions. A few things strike me.

(1) He employs the past tense, as if the dispute is passed, and I am stubbornly holding onto a conflict of old. He forgets that when I awake and our debate is but a memory in the recesses of his mind, I will be attending first hour, tired, slouching, and living what most can agree are the longest minutes and hours of the human lifespan: those spent merely waiting for time to transpire. When that hour mercifully ends, I will pile my books into my backpack and file to the next class. For me, the torturous boredom, insult, and waste that is school are not the fuel for nostalgic philosophical musings - they are the present which ambles by at a maddening stroll. He seems almost to apologize, but urgent resolution is still in the cards. (Or was still in the cards when he made that case. As I admitted in my original post, our dining room and kitchen are no longer host to fiery verbal altercations, as the rapidly approaching end to my schooldays and the impossibility of swaying my parents has given me to the business of waiting.)

(2) "thought school was" ought to be replaced with "think school is".

(3) The only reason he does not require me to go to college after high school is that he knows I will of my own volition. Partly this is because school, for all its academic repute, has left me bereft of skills: I know not how to rent a house, buy a car, pay taxes, seek loans, maintain a good credit score, obtain a credit card, open a bank account, write a check... I could list more, but if I proceed, the ocean of my incompetence may well rise above my nose, and drowning in one's own ineptitude is too embarrassing a way to die. I MUST go to college and reside in a paid-for living unit where I will have the time to learn these skills and master independence. Moreover, even if I were capable of entering the world immediately and living a satisfactory life, I would have to struggle mightily to bury the sunk cost of my childhood and move on. The loss would be unbearable if I could prove so plainly its worthlessness as by succeeding in a realm which did not require school. I would rather leave the gray area gray, reserving the right to believe school a necessary evil, at least if I am faced with overwhelming regret. Paradoxically, conviction is most fragile at its strongest.

Quote:Meanwhile, any ideas what you might like to do in the future, like once you're free from parental authority?

Computer science and fiction writing. I require college to explore the former to the extent that I desire. I only told you about my collegiate pessimism, but there is some light amid the dark: I hope that I will learn something enjoyable and interesting from a masters in Comp Sci. While "Gen. Eds." are an appalling facet, I have planned my courses at my desired university, and it is clear that computer science itself will be center stage. I realize with an anticipatory grinding of teeth that I seem a mirror image of my excited eighth-grade self, who was hurdling naively towards disenchantment, but it seems a far greater exercise in naivete to expect that an institution that affords you the right to leave will be comparable to one that doesn't. Who has, in a time of sanity, likened a prisoner to any free man? The two are night and day.

I think that while I am at college I will regard parental authority as distant and less meaningful. I can grieve for my lost autonomy once I've celebrated its return.

Quote:Welcome dude. Don't take life so seriously and try to have fun. If you parents are being ass' about grades just shrug it off and continue on with your life. As long as you have above a 3.0-3.2 GPA in high-school you'll be fine. Don't get mixed up in any unnecessary drama. I'm sure somebody as smart as you will have a decent and happy life years from now. Just focus on the future. I haven't slept in 2 days so this could be a bunch of malarkey. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Thank you for the welcome and the advice; Truth be told, I have lately come to accept scores inferior to straight A's. It was a glaring hypocrisy to speak so often of their irrelevance while fighting tooth and nail to claim them. My parents are uneasy with the minor decline that's resulted, but I recently assured myself a position as a National Merit Scholar, and I have used it exhaustively to gain leverage when they challenge me on a particular failure. They have also loosened the academic vice since middle school, as my sisters have entered the middle and later stages of compulsory education, receiving themselves the occasional C or D on an assignment. They saw on their subsequent attempts to guide a child to societal eminence that their methods of securing focus had been unrealistic and damaging. In the same way, it is worth noting, they have ceased almost entirely to punish. It has been a good month since a child in my house was banished to their room, and we haven't been deprived of electronics for years.

I should add here that my parents aren't terrible people. I say this not in the way that every person describes their school as "one of the better ones", but in a truly objective sense. They are painfully traditionalist and conformist, worldviews which seem at times baffling to us crew of intelligent IN's (Myers-Briggs), but we ought to recognize that such unfortunate personality elements were hardly of their selection. They were handicaps woven early on into the nature of their being, and they have done alright considering what an overwhelming obstacle their nature must present them. As I stated in the first telling of my story, I cannot say I respect them, but were I not personally subject to their whims and demands, and I could look their decisions head-on from an outside perspective, I might conclude that they are relatively mediocre. I offer here no implied parental benefit, whereby one's professed mediocre parent could be called a good person, one's professed bad parent a mediocre person and so on; I mean that they are mediocre in comparison to all of humanity. I would write more on the topic of the parent-child relationship--which in some cases I find an undesirable social institution--but my fingers are beginning to cramp and the quality of my writing is dwindling visibly with exhaustion.

Quote:By the way, Aureate, is your name a reference to the book Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell?

No, but that is a book I've taken interest in before, and I will regard your mention as an indirect recommendation. Please correct me if that work is, in fact, terrible. Aureate is a reference to a poem of my own composition. I had not encountered the word previously, but I needed a three-syllable synonym for golden, and in an uncharacteristic burst of usefulness, my thesaurus provided. I'll post the poem at the bottom, in case you or anyone else cares to investigate my namesake.

Thank you for reading this, and thank you again for the welcome. You can expect to see my posts around as I acclimate to the etiquette of forums and the specific personalities of the contributors who represent the backbone of School Survival, many of whom, I think, have shown themselves on this thread.


The promised poem:

The summer was dying, the day growing old,
But I was alive, and my mission was bold:
To trek through the meadows alone and behold
A feature unseen or a story untold.

Indeed I was tasked with a daunting pursuit;
For hours I fought what I thought to be true:
That I sought a shadow, and all this was moot
But I minded my will, and it bore me through.

For atop a hill I glanced down on delight,
At last affirmation through sweat in my eyes.
The object of searching was fin’ly in sight,
An aureate wheat field, pristine was my prize.

The sun pouring o’er it set flame to my soul;
Foreign joy warrants caution, but I did not know.
Thus carefree I ran to the stalks on the knoll
That whispered a greeting in tones soft and low.

A sea painted gold in late afternoon’s haze,
The wheat met the breeze with harmonious waves
And temptation crept up behind as I gazed
To nudge me ahead and effect what I craved.

As a child will stomp in immaculate snow,
So I set sail on that ocean aglow.
I reached out my arms to guide me as sails,
And when I was done I looked back on my trail.

A path through the wheat where the gold had been trod,
Fronds tamely lay victim to what I had wrought.
And though for a lifetime I’ll wish I did not,
In seeking a wish, I destroyed what I sought.


(The last two stanzas were written very hastily, which would explain while they violate the previous pattern. I should really revisit this one, but school leaves me little time and energy.)

[brainiac3397]

I guess long posts get unapproved status and require someone to approve em?

[xcriteria]

Apparently so. I approved the second post. Reading now.

[xcriteria]

(01-22-2015 01:59 PM)Aureate Wrote:  I clicked the link and almost instantly found a short list of 11-or-so reasons to hate school. Some were worded in an edgy way that I was, admittedly, not fond of--I wanted very much to distance myself from the impending stereotype of teenage rebellion--and none were novel to me. But they had a different and very positive effect which outweighed my reluctance tenfold. They affirmed what for years I could only suspect: that I wasn't alone in my growing sentiments.

I wonder if it might have been this page -- Why do I hate school?

That page ranks high in Google results, and gets similar amounts of traffic as a the front page of the site. I've thought about this list, and i think it would benefit from being re-worked, but in terms of design, and some of the items on the list.

For example, the lists people submitted on Subb's thread, Why Does School Suck?: The Shortlist, might be a good starting point, if you have any suggestions on what might stay or go.

(01-22-2015 01:59 PM)Aureate Wrote:  I thank you, and encourage you to consider the unnamed guests who traverse your site, surely travelling through your records by the hundreds. I invite you to scroll slowly through that list and wonder at how you've affected them.

I think about this a lot. Only a relative fraction of those who are hitting the site, and even viewing forum threads, register and participate on the forums. I wonder, why? What might be possible? How could the site be more helpful?

Over the summer, SoulRiser added a survey I put together on the front page, and since then, it's had several hundred valid replies. That's a lot more people than have ever joined and introduced themselves on the forums over a similar period of time, which is interesting. And, for the most part, despite variations, they hate school for overlapping sets of reasons we all know, and have interests that school isn't helping them pursue.

I think the biggest challenge is, there are limits to what can be done to help people completely transform their experience, unless parents agree to make a change. And that gets to your discussion of your conversations with your father.

(01-22-2015 01:59 PM)Aureate Wrote:  Before logical discussions got interesting with my father, they were apt to degenerate into every parent's shameless declaration: "because I said so!" In a different mood, he would prove he did and still does have logical cause (as he sees it) for his insistence upon my completion of high school.

I think that's the common pattern. It usually takes a lot of persistent effort, over time, to get to all the speeches that have more to them than "I told you so." And, many young people give up at various points, at least for periods of time. By the time any substantial progress is made, parents are often in a position to say, "well, you're almost finished, just finish."

However, unless you're gliding through senior year, and feel like it doesn't matter, I'd explore options. What I did, half-way through 11th grade, was persuade my parents to let me drop out, get a GED, and continue to college during the time I would have been a senior. This was a win-win situation on many levels, and that year of college wasn't the ideal learning environment I ended up spending years searching for, but I did well, and got something out of it, and it was a far better experience than continuing in total-waste-of-time high school.

(01-22-2015 01:59 PM)Aureate Wrote:  As you correctly guessed, his reasoning is that "We know school sucks, but you need it for college". I've tried to press that point in the past, citing most notably Grace Llewellyn's individual contacting of each major college in regard to their policy on unschooled applicants. She found that nearly all were aligned invitingly to the idea. On hearing this, my father would become defensive and angry, and it was clear that I had hit his personal bedrock, the immovable axiom on which all his debates rest.

"Your mom and I thought school was necessary for college, and we did our best, okay? When you finish high school, we won't make you go to college. This is all we required of you. Can you hold that against us?"

I think that immovable axiom is the one most parents these days fall back on, and I think if pressed on it -- which i encourage unhappy students to do -- many parents will be shocked, confused, and still try to stick to their "well, just finish school" guns.

(01-22-2015 01:59 PM)Aureate Wrote:  (1) He employs the past tense, as if the dispute is passed, and I am stubbornly holding onto a conflict of old. He forgets that when I awake and our debate is but a memory in the recesses of his mind, I will be attending first hour, tired, slouching, and living what most can agree are the longest minutes and hours of the human lifespan: those spent merely waiting for time to transpire. When that hour mercifully ends, I will pile my books into my backpack and file to the next class. For me, the torturous boredom, insult, and waste that is school are not the fuel for nostalgic philosophical musings - they are the present which ambles by at a maddening stroll. He seems almost to apologize, but urgent resolution is still in the cards.

In a word, "yeah."

This reminds me of the all-too-common kinds of scenes that play out. This kind of expected result -- even by those who haven't gone to the lengths you have -- is one of the reasons I think so many who find this site are stuck in school. This is the conversation to figure out, if there's any way to do so.

This kind of scene is featured in Suli Breaks's spoken word video, I Will Note Let an Exam Result Decide My Fate. (44 seconds in, in particular, but the entire video expresses the problem here.)



Watch on YouTube

(01-22-2015 01:59 PM)Aureate Wrote:  (Or was still in the cards when he made that case. As I admitted in my original post, our dining room and kitchen are no longer host to fiery verbal altercations, as the rapidly approaching end to my schooldays and the impossibility of swaying my parents has given me to the business of waiting.)

I, too, gave up trying, after a burst of attempts when I was 14. I tried everything I could think of, but it was like talking to a brick wall.

However, at 16-17, after I learned about the GED, and therefore a path to college without school, I was able to successfully, in fact incredibly easily, manage to get my parents to go along with leaving school. It was almost too good to be true. Even the school counselor I talked to as a step in dropping out said, almost immediately, something along the lines of "school isn't for everyone."

What? Why didn't anyone admit that sooner?!

Not everyone will have the same experience I did, but it's worth considering. In some ways, it can be easier to make the argument, "I'm almost done with school anyway, it's a waste of time, why not just proceed to college?" -- rather than "you've come this far, you might as well finish."

There's a term in decision science, Escalation of commitment, which is colloquially described as "throwing good money after bad." Just because you sunk X number of dollars or years into a failed project, doesn't mean it's worth continuing to sink resources into it. The thing to do, if there's no actual reason to continue down a path that makes no sense, is to identify the psychological principal in play, and at least try to allow reason to overcome it.

On that note, if you aren't familiar with Dan Ariely, and his research into behavioral economics and human decision-making, you may find a lot of insight by taking a look. I went looking for a relevant video from him, and this one fits very well in here, since it specifically hits on education.



Watch on YouTube

(01-22-2015 01:59 PM)Aureate Wrote:  (2) "thought school was" ought to be replaced with "think school is".

Exactly. Or, just maybe, cracks are beginning to appear in his resolve, and he's saying well, I'm not going to change now, that'd be too painful, so I'll blame it on my past view of things.

More in another reply.

[xcriteria]

(Continued from above.)

(01-22-2015 01:59 PM)Aureate Wrote:  (3) The only reason he does not require me to go to college after high school is that he knows I will of my own volition. Partly this is because school, for all its academic repute, has left me bereft of skills: I know not how to rent a house, buy a car, pay taxes, seek loans, maintain a good credit score, obtain a credit card, open a bank account, write a check... I could list more, but if I proceed, the ocean of my incompetence may well rise above my nose, and drowning in one's own ineptitude is too embarrassing a way to die.

The question of how to actually learn life-relevant things, after being blocked from learning many of them for so many hours and in so many ways, is indeed an important one. However, thinking you'll learn those things in college is probably not sound thinking. You might learn some things, it might be worth going, but not for getting a comprehensive education about life-relevant things.

There are so many examples of people graduating from college and not being able to function in life... and people who don't go to college to figure it out.

So, how to actually learn what you'll need to function in life? I think the basic answer is, identify what those things are, to the extent possible (you could ask a range of adults, learn about other people's stories, etc.) And then, how do you learn those things? Really, if you know what you want to learn, a lot of it can be found on the Internet. Connecting with mentors can also go a long way.

A big part of the learning program I have in mind, after starting with the basic idea of unschooling, is to add an exploration of those questions. What's really worth knowing, in addition to the pursuit of interests? It's the two things, interest and relevance. Something may be important or relevant, but boring, but it's still worth learning. But, why not put those learning choices into the hands of learners, rather than forcing them?

But, back to the question of college.

(01-22-2015 01:59 PM)Aureate Wrote:  I MUST go to college and reside in a paid-for living unit where I will have the time to learn these skills and master independence. Moreover, even if I were capable of entering the world immediately and living a satisfactory life, I would have to struggle mightily to bury the sunk cost of my childhood and move on. The loss would be unbearable if I could prove so plainly its worthlessness as by succeeding in a realm which did not require school. I would rather leave the gray area gray, reserving the right to believe school a necessary evil, at least if I am faced with overwhelming regret. Paradoxically, conviction is most fragile at its strongest.

College may be useful for that, but it's not really the college classes that you seem to referring to there, as much as time to explore life on your own.

A big question there is, how would a "paid-for living unit" be paid for? Debt? Family support? Scholarships? Working on the side? Or, a combination?

The question of college is really a large conversation, maybe worth spinning into another thread, or set of replies. College can be worth it, but it can take on a range of forms, and have a range of costs. A lot of people drop out. I have, multiple times, over observing I haven't been learning all that much. So have many others, just as others have graduated with debt, and still really not having any idea about a path forward.

So, in short, it's worth exploring further.

(01-22-2015 01:59 PM)Aureate Wrote:  

Quote:Meanwhile, any ideas what you might like to do in the future, like once you're free from parental authority?

Computer science and fiction writing.

Those sounds good.

(01-22-2015 01:59 PM)Aureate Wrote:  I require college to explore the former to the extent that I desire.

That statement gives me extreme pause. Part of my brain is screaming, "no, you don't!"

College might be a place to explore computer science, but it really depends on the college... and there are so many other ways to learn all about computer science, programming, and the like. Even many college classes are now available free, online, as MOOCs.

Maybe @lisafromjackson can chime in there, as I think she's a bit more pro-college than I am. Same with her, son, who's planning to go to college and interested in CS. And, various others here who've experienced come of college. But, I think many people who think about it these days would say, it really depends, so look into your options.

(01-22-2015 01:59 PM)Aureate Wrote:  I only told you about my collegiate pessimism, but there is some light amid the dark: I hope that I will learn something enjoyable and interesting from a masters in Comp Sci. While "Gen. Eds." are an appalling facet, I have planned my courses at my desired university, and it is clear that computer science itself will be center stage. I realize with an anticipatory grinding of teeth that I seem a mirror image of my excited eighth-grade self, who was hurdling naively towards disenchantment, but it seems a far greater exercise in naivete to expect that an institution that affords you the right to leave will be comparable to one that doesn't. Who has, in a time of sanity, likened a prisoner to any free man? The two are night and day.

Yes -- your plan may work out very well, or you might be disenchanted, like some end up being. But, at least, if you are, you are free to walk away... at least if you have an exit strategy.

The big caveat there is, if your plan involves getting into lots of debt, you'll walk away as a prisoner to that debt. If financial aid, family help, and low tuition make for little or no debt, there's less of a problem. However, family support tends to come with strings attached, and so does financial aid.

For Gen Eds, you might look into CLEP exams as a way to knock some of those out, as well as possibly enrolling in cheaper community college before transferring to a pricier college to complete a degree. One of my big criticisms of college -- which doesn't apply everwhere -- is that the things you actually want to learn are often reserved for jumping though all kinds of hoops. Meanwhile, all the content, at least, of even advanced college classes is available for free. What a college class might provide, aside from socialization opportunities, and a bit of live interaction with the instructors (maybe), is that they will produce assignments and exams for you to complete. And, of course, give you credit if you pass them.

That gets at a big question, though. To what extent is your goal getting a degree, vs. actually learning things? Both may happen in college, but it's worth looking into your goals. There are lots of computer-related jobs that require degrees, but many other that are 100% about what you know and what you can do, and maybe who you know... not a degree.

(01-22-2015 01:59 PM)Aureate Wrote:  I think that while I am at college I will regard parental authority as distant and less meaningful. I can grieve for my lost autonomy once I've celebrated its return.

Likely. Though, if they are still supporting you, it can have a lot of tradeoffs. During my second (partial) year of college, I transferred to a different college in the hopes of a more challenging and interesting experience. It was the opposite. I actually majored in Computer Science, after taking various classes of interest the previous year. The major came with a list of classes that included mind-numbingly boring Gen Eds, and a few very boring CS classes. I became depressed, in the sense of having no energy, sleeping a lot, and missing a lot of class. As the semester progressed, I realized I had a choice. Continue sleeping all the time, or take charge of my life and spend my time trying to figure out a path forward. I found some options, like CLEP, but this was many years ago, before most of the content of college was online. I resolved to quit college, and try using CLEPs and get some kind of exam-based degree. My parents weren't happy at all that I quit going to class (even though I was going voluntarily -- partly because they were helping pay for it.)

But, I withdrew from college, and serendipitously found a job at a quickly-growing web startup. It was working for that company, and on my own, that I learned the most about programming, far more than in those college classes (others experience may differ, but it's not that unusual.)

And yet, I ended up realizing, within a few years, that programming really wasn't for me. Others find it is, and often make a very good living at it, degree or not.

Nick Perez is one such person, who both dropped out of high school, and went on to work in programming. His guest post on Lisa Nielsen's blog, Dropping Out Was a Great Idea, might make for inspirational reading.

Nikhil Goyal also described his story in his talk, Why Kids Hate School.



Watch on YouTube

That's not to say college isn't worth pursuing. Some people do, and get a lot out of it. Sometimes, even with a lot of debt, at least when they're able to land and keep a very high-paying job. But, there are all kinds of stories out there, and getting to know a range of them can -- despite being very confusing and disorienting -- possibly help make for making more informed decisions.

(01-22-2015 01:59 PM)Aureate Wrote:  I would write more on the topic of the parent-child relationship--which in some cases I find an undesirable social institution--but my fingers are beginning to cramp and the quality of my writing is dwindling visibly with exhaustion.

I'm curious to hear more on that topic at some point.

[xcriteria]

And, Aureate, your part two reply is missing. Wonder where it went...

[Missile]

Probably glitched out and got deleted

[SoulRiser]

Quote:I am especially honored to meet you, SoulRiser. It is a strange feeling to hold even the momentary attention of a long ago idol, like I'm interacting with my own past self. I feel confronted with something of a personal celebrity, and I'm oddly compelled to introduce you to the invisible but lively correspondence you've had with me through your site.

Thank you... It feels really good to be appreciated.

Quote:Again, I'm taken by the consideration that the very person who typed each keystroke of that text into her computer will be reading this-and I repeat myself, but it seems such a haunting reunion with the bygone.

How long ago was that?

Quote:I clicked the link and almost instantly found a short list of 11-or-so reasons to hate school. Some were worded in an edgy way that I was, admittedly, not fond of--I wanted very much to distance myself from the impending stereotype of teenage rebellion--and none were novel to me.

I remember writing that somewhat hastily, and I never meant for it to overtake SS's actual intro as the first result in Google... I was aiming for getting a double listing. Didn't quite go as planned...

Quote:The combined impact of you and Fitz-Claridge sent me on a literary journey that led me to whom I now consider my most looked-up-to (no offense) advocate for youth rights, John Holt.

No offense taken whatsoever... I'm just happy to have had something to do with it somewhere along the way.

Quote:I thank you, and encourage you to consider the unnamed guests who traverse your site, surely travelling through your records by the hundreds. I invite you to scroll slowly through that list and wonder at how you've affected them.

I've been staring at this paragraph for a while... and I still can't think of anything to say in response. Thanks for making me think about them... I haven't in a long time.

Quote:They were handicaps woven early on into the nature of their being, and they have done alright considering what an overwhelming obstacle their nature must present them.

I find this particular arrangement of words to be quite delicious for some reason.

And I like your poem. Overall, I'm glad you're here.

Quote:And, Aureate, your part two reply is missing. Wonder where it went...

The logs say that Aureate deleted a post from here... doesn't say which one though.

[Aureate]

In regard to the deleted post and missing replies, no content was lost. Pieces of my post were uploaded twice. On being flagged for length, I had tried to shorten it by submitting it piecemeal. I thought I could nullify the first complete post which was flagged and queued for acceptance, but when I saw that it had still been accepted and revealed, I had to get rid of the fragments. Sorry for the confusion.

Quote:I wonder if it might have been this page -- Why Do I Hate School?

That's the one. Any changes I were to make would be minor, to the aggressive tone more than the content. One could counter, however, that many people are very emotional when they arrive here for the first time (and justifiably so), and might prefer to share in the passion of a fiery declaration than to analyze a series of specific claims. I would request that if any tweaks are made, number 10 be kept as is. On seeing it again, I recognized it immediately as being by a great margin the most moving of the reasons. I was almost brought to tears by it on my first reading so many years ago.

Quote:I think the biggest challenge is, there are limits to what can be done to help people completely transform their experience, unless parents agree to make a change.

This really cuts to the heart of the matter. I think for the time being, we are forced to advance along the path you've proposed in recent posts: equipping kids with strategies and evidence to employ in discussions with parents, as well as making that evidence more directly available to adults. But how do we do that? Online communities like this one have been mildly effective in furthering the former goal, but the arguably more important latter has remained elusive to similarly-oriented activists for decades. Do we have the power to conjure a sweeping flood at the rear of the thirty-year drought? We are eyed by a grim precedent.

Though we seem distant from normalizing free schooling, I bid you consider John Taylor Gatto's "tipping point", which he called the precise moment in time when forgoing public education will be popularized sufficiently as to allow parents the opportunity to explore it without evoking widespread neighborhood disapproval. It will be the case that everybody knows "those two families who unschool down the road" or "that democratic school on Main Street", and may remark, "my, aren't those unschooled kids well-spoken and mature?" Homeschooling parents today are threatened with a spiky horde of patronizing questions, wielded by an equally unpleasant army of self-proclaimed parenting critics, the threats of which can daunt even the stoic. Once we cross the tipping point, however, most people will regard free children as less than radical, and so no longer public fodder for hastily imagined condemnations. One could compare them to private schooling families, whom it is socially unacceptable to publicly assail with even your most deep-seated child-rearing epiphanies.

So the question becomes not whether we are close to instilling in all or a majority of parents the value of freedom to learn, but whether we are close to reaching the tipping point. You say in another thread of your own creation that 4% of parents now homeschool, and that the number is growing rapidly. It is with a tingle of excitement that I remind you truly exponential growth will ensue at the tipping point, as the very expansion in purveyors will fuel alternative education's normalcy and credibility, the sunlight by which it grows.

I have painted for you a picture of how we might practically succeed--if we can expand our influence to parents--but per usual, the realistic solution remains detached from that which is optimal. We say, "let's help kids to converse openly with and ultimately convince the autocrats who rule them that they ought to be free", or "lets help the autocrats who rule them better acknowledge the needs of their subjects". Maybe we should cease to award the position of autocrat to every bum who misunderstands birth control. An ant will always be limited in changing the path of an elephant, even when armed with the most eloquent apologia.

My metaphor exaggerates only slightly; the will of a parent is often absolute, and their power more so. We owe this in part to the marginalization of youth; we make it too easy for the grubbiest, laziest, least educated middle-aged member of society to believe that his "life experience" has ingrained his intuitions with the infallibility of divine mandate, while any contradictory opinions of a child can be ascribed to his corresponding lack of experience.

It is nauseating, but I am compelled to state that we all owe a modicum of thanks to our parents. Within the realm of the law--and much to the glee of staunch conservatives who in their own words, were "spanked and turned out alright"--our own mothers and fathers could have put us through psychological torture. We could have faced physical pain and intimidation to alter our behavior, we could have been pressed against our will into attending 10 religious rituals a week (even if that religion contradicts our own), we could have been denied social interaction for a year for "talking back", we could have been threatened with loss of items gifted to us (that is, robbed of all ownership), we could have been refused privacy... the list goes on endlessly. Parent-child interactions are governed by only the most basic human guarantees, and selected punishments and rules are almost never brought before external consideration. Many people would have supported your parents wholeheartedly in actions not unlike the aforementioned. Your suffering would have been hidden in plain sight, as demonstrated when one grabbing a 12-year-old harshly by the arm and dragging him struggling through public draws scarcely a remark, but a husband doing the same to his wife warrants multiple 911 calls from concerned bystanders, police intervention, and a charge of "domestic violence". What a shameful term that, under the guise of law, excludes a member of its supposed domain. What shameful gratitude I present to my parents, for being so lenient as to demand only 12 years of schooling from me.

I think the very institution of parenthood is outdated. I have not found that a person will likely be similar to someone else on the basis of familial relation (except in the case of twins, where a pattern of that sort is wont to emerge). I suggest, then, that a child be given the option to select new guardians or no guardians at his will and at his word. Presently, we have to prove abuse for "unusually early" emancipation, at which point, succeeding, we become "wards", or prisoners of the state. I suggest that if you are compelled to live constantly with someone who has substantial power over you, a mere souring in relationship should be meaningful cause to seek a fresh situation. I would support the opening of government-funded homes as another option for emancipated minors, in which they would be protected from spiteful lashings out by past guardians, provided community, necessities, freedom to work jobs outside the home, vouchers to partially fund college if they so choose, and computers with which to educate themselves (possibly through courses like the one you are planning, foundational pillars of any more tolerant society).

I should mention lastly that I suspect very few children would select life in such a facility; a certain kind of person would flourish there, but many would prefer the benefits of the traditional family. I would hope that the mere existence of alternatives would require adults to consider the severity of the stipulations they impose upon their kids, and I hope it would adjust the light in which they regard them-not as personal slaves or pets, but as autonomous, intelligent human beings.

(I credit John Holt for the idea of elective guardianship, more or less as described.)

[brainiac3397]

I see lots of similarities in folk passed down from family.

An interesting idea it would be to let kids pick guardians...but based on what criteria and that's assuming their capable of making the "right" choice. Candy and games tend to color the world of a child more than education, finances and the like for their future. Plus Im personally traditionalist when it comes to families, viewing them as an institution that provides members of said family mutual opportunities based on familial bonds and networks.

Course the Murikan style of nuclear family tends to negate the advantages an extensive family provides since there is no extent. Thankfully I come from a country where family is still understood to be an important institution (even if my own family is screwed up from a whole bunch of nonsesical feuding stemming from decades ago. Doesnt matter much since I plan to have my own family established one day)

[Aureate]

Quote:I see lots of similarities in folk passed down from family.

Fair enough. I should have said that familial relationship does not necessitate similarity, though it can regularly produce it in some regions. My point would stand, as even were the diametrically opposed child an outlier, his case would be entitled to consideration.

Quote:An interesting idea it would be to let kids pick guardians...but based on what criteria and that's assuming their capable of making the "right" choice.

The criteria would vary at the whim of the affected. In choosing a new guardian, both the child and that guardian would have to agree to the terms of the relationship to perpetuate it. This would not be the case with the original guardian, who would be legally obliged to provide the child with necessities until adulthood, so long as the child occupies their household.

Quote: Candy and games tend to color the world of a child more than education, finances and the like for their future.

I agree. It is for this very reason that a young child would not leave his parents, his default guardians; he is not concerned with the affect of the relationship on his future or its applicability to his perceived human rights. Our world is not afflicted with ceaseless waves of 10-year-old runaways. By the time a person develops the self-confidence to make such a bold assertion of independence, it is only reasonable to suspect that he will also have developed consciousness of his "education, finances, and future" (and probably have surpassed the age of 10).

Quote:Plus Im personally traditionalist when it comes to families, viewing them as an institution that provides members of said family mutual opportunities based on familial bonds and networks.

You must accept that there is a continuum of families, along which your ideal vision and my lowlier image both lie. Some families are not aligned with the traditional idea of super-friends who always have each other's backs. If a family is no more than the benign and beneficial structure you describe, I do not expect a child would have reason to seek exit. If for some reason the child feels so uncomfortable in such an outwardly pleasant scenario as to trade it for the unknown, we can expect that something pernicious is going on behind the scenes. If you do not consider the child to have demonstrated adequate cause, then with due respect, he should not suffer for it. I don't suspect you step in to prevent what you consider frivolous divorces, separations acting towards the same or greater division of a family.

Quote:Course the Murikan style of nuclear family tends to negate the advantages an extensive family provides since there is no extent. Thankfully I come from a country where family is still understood to be an important institution (even if my own family is screwed up from a whole bunch of nonsesical feuding stemming from decades ago. Doesnt matter much since I plan to have my own family established one day)

As an American who has never met an inter-generational family, it does seem preferable to a nuclear one. One can grow under the influence of an entire community of adults, a concept often praised as an inherent boon to unschooling as well. I think the public institutions I presented as a third alternative to primary and secondary guardians would fulfill this same need, maybe to an even greater degree.


I know I have yet to respond further to xcriteria and SoulRiser, but I thought this was an interesting post by Mr. Brainiac (formal title as requested) that allowed me to address some common counterarguments and clarify my--and to a very large extent, John Holt's--philosophy of guardianship.

[Aureate]

Quote:I think that's the common pattern. It usually takes a lot of persistent effort, over time, to get to all the speeches that have more to them than "I told you so." And, many young people give up at various points, at least for periods of time. By the time any substantial progress is made, parents are often in a position to say, "well, you're almost finished, just finish."

I don't know if I've alluded to that in earlier posts or if you have actually met my parents. Your precision is unnerving.

Quote:This kind of scene is featured in Suli Breaks's spoken word video, I Will Note Let an Exam Result Decide My Fate. (44 seconds in, in particular, but the entire video expresses the problem here.)

I had seen the video before but not given it much thought. I notice that, as is probably typical for people on this site, the parent truly cares about the child. This actually ends up having an unfortunate effect in pursuing compromise, for her child will not be able to draw her empathy towards his present concerns. She has already invested it in his future. I would consider this situation a loss for all involved, where the mother feels unappreciated and the child feels trapped.

Ultimately, at least one party is bound to leave upset. The question is whether we should err on the side of placing too much power in the hands of the guide or the guided, and I, for one, believe that the individual deserves final control over his own path. I notice, ironically, that almost all American parents espouse this ideal as well, but they hastily suppress it when it becomes convenient in dealing with their children.

On a similar tangent, it leaves a bad taste in my mouth to visualize a parent and a teacher discussing how best to coerce a child into studying topics against his will. The unprofessional and repressive nature of school becomes grossly exaggerated when both the teacher and unwilling subordinate are aware that another authority exists within the subordinate's home, one whose wrath the teacher can evoke with a phone call, email, or word at a conference. The teacher, through the mother and father, can exact punishments which are beyond her domain and which can attack students in the privacy of their own bedrooms. If we step back and examine this relationship abstractly, we detect a violation of human rights that, materialized in any other form, would be target practice for humanist agencies worldwide. The inanity of the charges brought to parents against their children is also of note: failure to adequately complete work that they find irrelevant and for which they do not believe they are compensated. Neglect of pointless trivialities, a mere decade later in their lives, will be the mark of a competent entrepreneur.

Quote:I, too, gave up trying, after a burst of attempts when I was 14. I tried everything I could think of, but it was like talking to a brick wall.

However, at 16-17, after I learned about the GED, and therefore a path to college without school, I was able to successfully, in fact incredibly easily, manage to get my parents to go along with leaving school. It was almost too good to be true. Even the school counselor I talked to as a step in dropping out said, almost immediately, something along the lines of "school isn't for everyone."

What? Why didn't anyone admit that sooner?!

Not everyone will , have the same experience I did, but it's worth considering. In some ways, it can be easier to make the argument, "I'm almost done with school anyway, it's a waste of time why not just proceed to college?" -- rather than "you've come this far, you might as well finish."

I once petitioned my parents to let me take a similar route. I can skip the details and assure you that it was no use and will not avail me in the future. My parents will not budge, so I wait.

Quote:The question of how to actually learn life-relevant things, after being blocked from learning many of them for so many hours and in so many ways, is indeed an important one. However, thinking you'll learn those things in college is probably not sound thinking. You might learn some things, it might be worth going, but not for getting a comprehensive education about life-relevant things.

There are so many examples of people graduating from college and not being able to function in life... and people who don't go to college to figure it out.

I've thought about this for a while before responding. The prospect of not being fully capable even after college is a paralyzing fear of mine. I am terrified that I will eternally see "life" as something that happens when I'm on my feet in five years. I'll be able to live once I leave high school...leave college...secure my first job...earn my first promotion...quit and start my own business...retire.

Unsettling as it is for me to admit, I think you're right. I'll revoke that as a reason to attend college, but I maintain that a paid-for place of habitation will be better than one I must fund on my own and without the support of a degree. Some form of security is important to me; it would be profoundly distressing to live paycheck-to-paycheck.

Quote:A big question there is, how would a "paid-for living unit" be paid for? Debt? Family support? Scholarships? Working on the side? Or, a combination?

This is the truly noteworthy bit.

The original plan was familial support, and this was another factor corralling me into college: my parents will only assist me financially if I do go to college, otherwise I'm on my own. As you mentioned, total parental support and autonomy struggle to coexist.

In a burst of good fortune, I received a 228 on the PSAT, assuring myself at the least, the title of National Merit Semifinalist. If I only achieve Semifinalist, my situation remains gloomy. If I can reach Finalist, however, as most people with such a score do, I will receive a full ride and more from the college I'm considering. This potential jackpot quelled my college concerns overnight; I have almost nothing to lose by attending. Moreover, if I can realize my reachable goal of a full ride, my parents have long agreed to buy me a car. It means I must put some focus into preserving our relationship, but the opportunity is too lucrative to ignore.

I thank you for offering alternatives, but as it stands, college seems actually a safe route to an exciting career in computer science, and my moral objections to the operation of colleges are like hairs on the heads of the giants that are my moral objections to high, middle, and elementary school.

Quote:One of my big criticisms of college -- which doesn't apply everwhere -- is that the things you actually want to learn are often reserved for jumping though all kinds of hoops.

Unfortunately, your statement is confirmation of other descriptions I've received, but again, I will at least be able to study computer science along the way. I accepted in first grade that I would get nothing out of elementary school, in sixth grade that I would get nothing out of middle school, and in ninth grade that I would get nothing out of high school. For a decade I've worked to the drum beat of carrots and sticks. That my interests will correlate noticeably to my classes is a huge improvement. I am something like a circus tiger about to be released to the grasslands; the newfound risk of rainstorms will be powerless to dampen my joy.

Quote:Meanwhile, all the content, at least, of even advanced college classes is available for free. What a college class might provide, aside from socialization opportunities, and a bit of live interaction with the instructors (maybe), is that they will produce assignments and exams for you to complete. And, of course, give you credit if you pass them.

Now that I have introduced my potential for free college, this statement serves to glorify it. You admit that excepting a single handicap--its cost--college is superior (if only slightly) to alternative routes. I've evaded the crushing debt that is wont to attend it. Your concerns are very sensible and well-stated, but I've rolled well on the lottery of standardized tests, and unique opportunities have been opened to me.

Now I admit that I would rather meaningful skills drew the attention of universities. The irony is not lost on me that, having just professed to relate to a video about exams' inability to gauge intelligence, I found my future upon the contrary perceptions of university personnel. And I have only to say in my defense that I wish it otherwise. I wish compulsory education and all its facets abolished so that I may already have delved deeply into networking and programming. I wish it abolished so that I may have lived and may currently be living an enjoyable childhood worthy of nostalgic remembrance. This does nothing to lessen my fervor in that regard.

Quote:To what extent is your goal getting a degree, vs. actually learning things?

My goal is split down the middle. I desire both to equal degrees (no pun intended). I beg forgiveness if this was a rhetorical question, and I ought to have chosen 100% learning. I believe that a degree will be at least mildly helpful in making money, and I am not so materially abstemious as to 100% disregard the security and freedom that accompanies a well-paying job. I would by no means force this perspective upon others who feel perfectly satisfied living very frugally, e.g. if a future child of mine wants to travel the country living in his minivan, I will accept that decision with a smile. To each his own.

I think we concur that college is one route to learning (not necessarily the best), so I won't expound too greatly on how I plan to acquire knowledge there. It would seem the process is a pretty transparent one as it stands.

Quote:There are lots of computer-related jobs that require degrees, but many other that are 100% about what you know and what you can do, and maybe who you know... not a degree.

I find myself faced with a dilemma; I hope you can sympathize, for I mean not to discredit your advice. On one hand, my father tells me that the lack of a degree will dangerously limit earning potential in many companies. You tell me that in many other companies it will not. I am confronted with two vague and statistically insubstantial anecdotes. I can conclude from them very little.

I am aware that degrees have allowed some people to advance and helped others not at all. I feel uncomfortable challenging a longstanding status quo--with which I have no first hand experience--to such an uncertain battle cry. If we speak six years hence, I may well side completely with you, and apologize for my indecision.

Know, however, that I shall offer my apology with a good-natured chuckle, for I will have lost little either way, and will not be burdened with the mountainous debt that you rightly cautioned me to avoid.

Until that time, I look eagerly forward to reveling in my fast-approaching freedom from compulsory schooling.

Thanks for reading!