My parents wanted me to tell "all of you idiots" that I don't do my work

[c00ldud3]

They wanted me to? I don't care. Bam. I did it.
School makes me feel like an useless piece of space and utter piece of shit.

School has shattered all my self confidence that I no longer have any. All I can do is talk negatively about myself now and there is more negative things than positive about me.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels like this because of school.

This needs to stop.

School has made me feel so hopeless about my future that it's unbelievable.

[Missile]

You're not alone

[stevehein]

yeah - i agree.

another teen also told me once she felt useless beause she wasn't making any contribution to society. i hadnt thought of it before but it makes sense now that this is another way forced "education" or domestication or behavior or mind control doesn't meet a person's natural needs. One of our needs, I believe is to feel useful.

so yeah hug if u want one.

and i laughed at what your parents said. it is cool u came here and wrote about it. id like to talk to your parents. i am 58 btw. some pple think im a teen. nah - i hated school all my life, but didn't realize how fucked up the whole system really is till much much later. not till i started talking to and listening to depressed/suicidal teens...

your parents don't seem very "emotionally literate" haha either if all the can do is order you around and label your online friends, who probably are your best friends.

[James Comey]

Lol, okay, I'm totally an idiot.

Again, you're not alone. A lot of us have felt stigmatized and made useless because of compulsory schooling (or in my case, an inferior human being). It's the sorry-ass state of the education system. I mean, come on, misery-based lectures and lack of self-worth shouldn't be part of learning.

[brainiac3397]

Wait till I'm a rich 20 year old. Let's see yo parents say that my face as I sport a suit that costs more than their car and shoes that cost the amount they pay mortgage/rent.

Oh yeh...

[MurkScribe]

I understand Cloud, I'm going through the same struggles. Especially when I struggled with these as a kid, and I still continue to have these issues in the prison institution of schooling.

[MrAnonymous]

I feel bad for you. Your parents are close-minded if they say all of us are idiots because of our anti-school beliefs; they only go by what they were told to believe. Tell them about people here and how much more intelligence we have than they think we have. Would they think all hackers are bad?

Try this article: http://www.helpguide.org/articles/depres...ssion.htm.

[Ky]

I'm an idiot? That's news to me, but I suppose I shouldn't be surprised.

Anyway, kid, do your work - not so much because it's important (it really, really isn't), but because you owe it to yourself not to have to listen to all the shit they'll give you for not doing your work.

[xcriteria]

Like those above have said, you're not alone. There's certainly more to life than what school leads many to experience, though.

So, @c00ldud3, your parents know about School Survival and actually asked you to send us a message?

Do they understand a many adults, including parents, educators, and psychologists, realize how much school-as-usual diverges from actual, life-relevant education?

You're not alone in how your parents are reacting... and it's understandable that parents who see school as the most important thing are concerned about questioning it. But, so many people are questioning it, including parents and teachers who went through a change from not understanding, to understanding.

It's worth keeping in mind that regardless of your parents, you'll be able to take charge of your life in a few years. Those of us who see the problems with school-as-usual will be here to help you figure things out. But, in the meantime, maybe your parents can learn more about the range of people who are seeing the problems with school, as well as the range of people who are questioning it. If not, life can go on, but I think it's worth asking what the blocking factors are to parents understanding.

Would they be open to watching video or reading text, or talking to people about all of this? If so, we can take a look at what might be a good fit.

Regardless of how difficult it is, there are ways forward. Your life is more important than what may seem like the messages that you don't matter.

[lisafromjackson]

Interesting suggestions DoA....but from my point of view...the reason I never did well was because I couldn't do the work. Not because I just didn't, but because I couldn't.

I don't get the sense that c00ldud's problem is unwillingness.

Hence his frustration.

[c00ldud3]

It's also true that some of the work I'm given I didn't do because I couldn't do it.
I turn a lot of things in late because I don't have the creativity present to fill the needs of the given assignment. An example: I had to write an essay in English earlier this year where we had to basically make a parody of a story. It took me forever to think of an original idea and I got points deducted because it was late. I'm in honors classes, so work piles up quick.

[lisafromjackson]

c00ldud, you are a great candidate for my "brainstorm a learning plan" thread here. Start from the beginning...what would you learn, if you had the time and the resources and the ability to make your own choices?

[c00ldud3]

My mom said I made school the way it is and the only one to blame is me. She said I made it miserable because I don't do my work when the work itself makes me miserable.

[brainiac3397]

And the Nazi we're not bad it's just that the Jews made it out that way.

[lisafromjackson]

As a parent, I ought to find it harder to oppose the opinion of another parent. I have 2 kids, 14 and 17. Hard to know what I'd do if another parent had a negative opinion about how I was raising them. If that other parent raised alarm bells, heard my kids saying something about themselves that was truly concerning, I'd listen, though.

C00ldud, you are obviously experiencing anxiety, anger, and sense of hopelessness. To put it down to "you made yourself miserable" is ignoring some pretty concerning signs...and also ignoring the fact that there are kids who are unable to change themselves to fit into the tight corners of school "learning."

Many kids (and by that I mean more than just an insignificant minority) are just unable to conform to the school-oriented way of learning. It's different than when I was a kid. For one thing, the information explosion has changed everything. Kids know that what they feel deeply curious about can be pursued online. They feel classes are lost time when they could be doing what they love. And there's also the plain fact that so much of what we are demanding kids "learn" is irrelevant in this age...but if they were allowed to pursue what they find meaningful, it's like entering a room and opening doors, to fidn another room, and opening more and more and more doors. Before you know it your kid is: Educated.

I serve on my local school board. I'm a music teacher. I come from a family of two PhDs, and two Masters degrees. I am currently working with my older child to get him into a college that he will like. I'm not an unconventional parent. My younger child wants to go to Barnard, and for that reason, I remind her that she has to get good grades and show that she is "well-rounded" so I bug her to practice her violin -- not because it's important to me, but because it's important to her.

I have never bugged my kids to do homework or study for a test...NEVER. I told them early on that it was their choice. Do well in school or don't do well in school. You decide your goals, and you decide how to get there.

It certainly is hard to conceive of what happens within the walls of a family, so I try not to judge. But I don't think it is asking too much for any parent to simply sit down and listen.

[Trekkie_Aspie]

Dear: cooldud3's parents.
Re: cooldud3 doesn't do his work

Please would you do me a favour and read things from Holt? Another good idea might be to read things by A.S Neil a.k.a the founder of Summerhill. Everybody always does their work. Whether they do your work or the boss's work is quite another matter, of course.

[xcriteria]

@cooldud3's parents, what's your idea about his future? College? Paying work in the future?

There are paths to both of those things that don't involve "doing the work" that gets assigned in high school. Success in life does require doing work, but sometimes the work that's imposed by school is really a poor fit for individual learners. That's why so many parents, and even teachers, are hitting the point of saying "this isn't working -- what are my other options?"

If he's not doing the work, it's worth looking at why. A complete exploration of why, and what might be done about it, will take some time, but it's worth starting somewhere.

If part of the reason is depression, that's worth looking at. Depression can drain energy and make it impossible to do work. Yelling at and nagging a person experiencing serious depression isn't likely to help, and in fact, it's very likely to make things even worse.

Here's an excerpt from psychiatrist Ed Hallowell about one solution to a struggling learner -- an approach he also advocates when people are unhappy in adult life:

As a child psychiatrist, I’m asked every day to help a struggling young person do better. For example, I recently saw a boy I’ll call Tommy, who was floundering in sixth grade in spite of increasingly vehement exhortations from his teachers and parents to try harder. I could see how downcast he was, so I immediately turned to a process I’ve developed for kids like him. It began with figuring out what he liked to do (build things and play guitar) and what he was good at (math, science, music, and hands-on projects) and urging him to do those things more often. I also arranged for him to be switched out of a class where there was a clear conflict with the teacher and into one where he felt more at ease, and I advised the adults in his life to make sure he was imaginatively engaged in the classroom, not just sitting there, bored. I told them to challenge Tommy but not in a punishing way; the message should be “I’m asking more from you because I know you have it in you.” Within weeks, he was working harder and was even eager to go to school. He started to receive positive feedback, which fueled his desire to work harder still.

Managing Yourself: What Brain Science Tells Us About How to Excel

The problem is, in many cases, the assignments and requirements school imposes are so out of touch with a given student that tweaks aren't enough. A completely different solution is needed. As Hallowell writes later in that article, "Millions of workers toil fecklessly in the wrong jobs. They don’t want to cause problems—or risk losing their positions—by complaining, so they simply do what they are told. I have counseled hundreds of adults looking for tips on how to make their work life better. And, time and again, I have told them that they must first find the right job."

Likewise, it's important for learners to find the right kind of learning environment for them. Many young people who struggle in school-as-usual thrive in schools like the Sudbury model, which is based on supporting learner interests, or other approaches.

Quite a few teachers are starting to realize the problems with school-as-usual, especially for students who struggle in it.

For example, David Preston went from teaching at UCLA to teaching high school, because he saw how many of his students, and consulting clients, expressed how much school got in the way of their ability to learn, vs. facilitating it. Here's a link to part-way through a Hangout where explains this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSCvAe65zDU&t=35m42s

Like other teachers, Preston is working to help students "de-school" while still in school, and recover their capacity and interest in learning. But it's a difficult process in many cases. Many students start disengaging in elementary school, and many more during middle and high school. If a student doesn't have teachers who connect to learner interests and strengths, and providing meaningful challenges, school can be an incredibly stifling experience. And the way school is set up, many teachers don't have the time or flexibility to adapt to individual learners.

A big question is, what's the point of doing the work being assigned? If the goal is college, there are paths into college without completing traditional high school. College isn't for everyone, but a lot of people do well in college despite struggling in earlier levels of school. So if that's a possible goal, why not explore the various paths into it?

In the meantime, maybe there are some steps that could help with completing even assignments within school as it is. Maybe we could look into that and see what's possible, as well as possible paths going forward?

[SoulRiser]

What would happen if you showed your parents this thread?

[Username]

(01-17-2015 03:06 AM)SoulRiser Wrote:  What would happen if you showed your parents this thread?

They'd disregard it, obviously.

[stevehein]

This bothered me...

“I’m asking more from you because I know you have it in you.” Within weeks, he was working harder and was even eager to go to school. He started to receive positive feedback, which fueled his desire to work harder still.

I looked at the link and read some of it.. about praise for example, and thought about what Alfie Kohn has said about praise. I felt discouraged by the article. And discouraged by the fact it is in the Harvard Business Review. You can't get much more mainstream American than that. I used to read it by the way, I had a subscription to it before the days of the Internet

I not only feel discouraged by the article, I feel scared. Scared of what is happening in the USA and in the world. The psychologists and psychiatrists seem to keep finding more ways to keep everyone in the system. More manufactured consent. The boy in the article will one day make the perfect employee, but he won't make a good father when his own child is depressed. He will believe in the system.

I asked a friend once, how can we change the system and he said first we have to stop believing in it.

I feel afraid xc will feel defensive and I feel bad that he might feel criticized. So I want to say he has a lot of good ideas and I am pretty sure he doesn't really want teenagers to be part of the system, but I guess I see this article and this psychiatrist guy from a different perspective. Living outside of the USA for a long time, after having been domesticated there, wearing a tie, getting an MBA, working for a huge corporation, etc, gives me this different perspective I suppose. I guess to be honest I also felt judgmental when I read that article. I felt pain. Sadness. I felt confused how it would even make it into the HBR. I felt unimpressed by it. Basically just more depressed. And even more depressed to see it here on SS.

The thing about praise especially bothers me. It is a cheap way for businesses to get more work out of their "wage slaves." Praise and recognition cost less but pay "big dividends." That comment is in reference to this from the article..

"Small talk seems trivial, but it pays big dividends,"

The author is being honest at least, in the "bottom line" as the business based expression goes, what matters is money.

He confuses people by saying they should pay attention to people and notice things like someone's dress or sad look, which is seems pretty obviously faking that you care, then he says "be real." But this is not real behavior or feeling.

Also in the article he tells a story about a friend of his who has all these titles and accomplishments. Another very mainstream American person.

Here is what he says about him..

Joe is a professor at Harvard Medical School, chief of medicine at Brigham and Women’s Hospital in Boston, a research scientist, editor in chief of the cardiology journal Circulation, and a doctor with a busy practice.

Again, I feel unimpressed.

By the way this article doesn't just want you to be successful. No, it wants you to "excel" as the title shows us...


Managing Yourself: What Brain Science Tells Us About How to Excel...

*sigh...

Again I apologize to xc who i know has only the best of intentions.

[SoulRiser]

Yeah, that article bothered me too... it's still all about doing what other people have decided you should do, instead of following your own heart & mind.

[xcriteria]

I understand the criticisms of the school part... what can we do to create better materials that people will actually take seriously?

The reason I like that article is that it is, overall, about finding paths in life that work for you, rather than staying stuck in toxic, dysfunctional situations.

It's about looking at the situation, not just diagnosing the person with disorders and forcing them to comply with what obviously isn't working.

Those things would be huge steps forward for parents who aren't even doing that...

The reality is that school and parenting often causes serious damage to people's motivation, and just tweaking a school situation -- even if schools will allow tweaks -- doesn't solve those underlying problems.

But, just the idea that people can develop their strengths and find ways to thrive is so foreign to so many people, and Hallowell is one person trying to spread that message. Let's find a better way to explain this stuff, though!

[xcriteria]

Btw, what do you all think of David Preston in the video I linked to? It's a timestamped link, and he goes further in condemning school-as-usual, which is why I included both references, not just one.

[xcriteria]

(01-17-2015 05:20 PM)stevehein Wrote:  The thing about praise especially bothers me. It is a cheap way for businesses to get more work out of their "wage slaves." Praise and recognition cost less but pay "big dividends." That comment is in reference to this from the article..

"Small talk seems trivial, but it pays big dividends,"

Yeah, I agree. That's disturbing.

(01-17-2015 05:20 PM)stevehein Wrote:  He confuses people by saying they should pay attention to people and notice things like someone's dress or sad look, which is seems pretty obviously faking that you care, then he says "be real." But this is not real behavior or feeling.

[quote='stevehein' pid='549509' dateline='1421479218']
Also in the article he tells a story about a friend of his who has all these titles and accomplishments. Another very mainstream American person.

There are certainly many other rewarding paths in life. I don't think it's a problem that some people have titles and traditional accomplishments. They shouldn't be pushed on everyone, though.

(01-17-2015 05:20 PM)stevehein Wrote:  By the way this article doesn't just want you to be successful. No, it wants you to "excel" as the title shows us...

What's wrong with excelling? As long as you choose your own path and find things that work for you. I see how this article doesn't provide the best examples of that, though.

(01-17-2015 05:20 PM)stevehein Wrote:  Again I apologize to xc who i know has only the best of intentions.

Yeah.

Really though, good points. But, if you look for the upsides of the article, it does have some as well.

We do really need to create our own content that helps people over the bridge from misery-and-compliance, to at least thinking about changing situations. The question is, how to do that?

[brainiac3397]

Psychologists are the dirty apes that propagate the brainwashed culturalism of a corrupted corporatist America! VIVA LA REVOLUCION!

[ShatteredGlass]

You're not alone. School has destroyed my self esteem too. Today I started the 2015 school year. The first day at school was a fucking nightmare for many reasons. School makes me feel like an inferior piece of shit. Fuck school and all of the staff and students.