Depression and school

[lisafromjackson]

In the few conversations and interactions I've had with some of you, I've realized more and more how awful and heartbreaking is the lack of control adolescents have over their own lives. Even though so many of you are very clear about what you want, what you enjoy, and what you hate; what makes you anxious and angry, and how you feel when that gets shut down.

I'm thinking depression is a critical effect of the lack of control teens have over their lives. The fact that it seems universally acceptable to deny young people the right to some or any control over their lives at a developmental point where they should be practicing making choices and learning from successes and failures in a safer environment than they will have when they leave home -- that seems utterly nonsensical. OK, that was a really long convoluted sentence.

My point is this: frustration and anger at lack of control in school and at home is a reasonable response. Lack of power to change the situation leads to head injury from banging against brick walls. But the brick walls don't move, and it is again a perfectly reasonable response to become depressed.

I'm thinking about fleshing this out in our informational pamphlet to parents. The idea is, perhaps parents who aren't changing their thinking despite conflicts with kids might take something seriously if they think their kids are becoming depressed.

Those of you who like to do research can help me out -- I'm looking for research evidence that ties school-as-usual, the rise in testing and standardization and the increasingly regimental nature of school to mental illness in adolescents.

[lisafromjackson]

Here is an article we can deconstruct: how many examples of adolescent apathy and anger can be connected to the overuse of control by adult authority, by both parents and school?

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/surv...g-can-mean

"ANGER. The desire to operate more independently and on one’s own terms causes the young person to be less tolerant of what parents say must and must not be done. In consequence, there is more resentment of parental rules and restraints: “Who gives you the right to make me more or stop me; you’re not the boss of the world!” Except, parents still dictate most terms on which the young person lives. More anger at the unfairness of adult authority is part of the adolescent age."

[lisafromjackson]

This quote is out-STANDING.

GRADES ARE TOO IMPORTANT TO BECOME EMOTIONALLY UPSET ABOUT. Growth is just a gathering of power, from dependence to independence, the job of parents being to help their adolescent gather that power in an appropriate, not inappropriate ways. It is NOT appropriate for parents to give the adolescent power to get them upset over grades because then the academic focus is lost and the young person wins influence over parental feelings. "I can really push my parents' buttons by doing poorly in school." When parents get upset over grades, they only turn a performance issue into an emotional encounter with their adolescent.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/surv...fort-and-g

[Rule_BreakerXVIII]

Quote:I'm thinking depression is a critical effect of the lack of control teens have over their lives. The fact that it seems universally acceptable to deny young people the right to some or any control over their lives at a developmental point where they should be practicing making choices and learning from successes and failures in a safer environment than they will have when they leave home -- that seems utterly nonsensical. OK, that was a really long convoluted sentence.

My point is this: frustration and anger at lack of control in school and at home is a reasonable response. Lack of power to change the situation leads to head injury from banging against brick walls. But the brick walls don't move, and it is again a perfectly reasonable response to become depressed.

It's too bad that we need research to prove something that should be obvious, IMO. But the attitude to have facts that are backed-up by research and statistics is a good one. It's just irritating when people demand research to prove that treating others more humanely is better in all respects than simply cracking the bullwhip. On the topic of treating people humanely, http://speedchange.blogspot.in/2011/11/w...ching.html is an awesome blog.

[lisafromjackson]

As I have been lately, I'm thinking about amassing enough research to present to parents who are coming down hard on their kids to stay in school, take lots of hard courses, get good grades. Kids don't get any credit at all for knowing what they want. It's like adults feel like there is a ticking clock, and if kids make the wrong choice now there is no going back. My feeling is, hey....life is long. Lots of time and no reason to be so unhappy with what you are doing. All kids of reasons to do what is meaningful right now and find fulfillment in it. Fear should have no role in education.

[xcriteria]

I think that much of the ticking clock parents are thinking of is, the one related to college admissions and scholarships. How can we address that angle?

And yet also, how can we address the benefits of actual learning of life-relevant things? School often doesn't cover such things very well, whether it's things employers want to see, or all the other things that matter in life.

[James Comey]

This is all a pretty damn stickier subject than it seems. We know that a lot of teenagers experience depression, but why? Homework, boring subjects, hopelessness, etc, all play a role.

There's just so much shit put in in getting to college, high grades, testing, etc it almost feels as if I'm not a human but some kind of work monkey. Come on, I am a man, and I do feel. I don't need to be broken, thank you very much. What should be days in which we should be nurturing ourselves has turned into worrying about standardized testing and all.

[Mo the jo]

"WE HAVE HERE A TERRIBLE IRONY. In the name of education, we have increasingly deprived children of the time and freedom they need to educate themselves through their own means. And in the name of safety, we have deprived children of the freedom they need to develop the understanding, courage, and confidence required to face life's dangers and challenges with equanimity." Peter Gray, Free to Learn. This is a quote that I found was very related to the discussion that we are having right now. In the name of education, we are deprived of time to discover our path in life, and find what we want to do in life.

[Rule_BreakerXVIII]

(12-27-2014 12:22 PM)xcriteria Wrote:  I think that much of the ticking clock parents are thinking of is, the one related to college admissions and scholarships. How can we address that angle?

And yet also, how can we address the benefits of actual learning of life-relevant things? School often doesn't cover such things very well, whether it's things employers want to see, or all the other things that matter in life.

One of my major complaints about school was the fact that teachers take 30-45 minutes to teach a class of 60 students a concept that can be individually understood better in 10 minutes. 6-7 hours a day to learn something that can be understood in half an hour, tops is a terrible waste of time. I could do so much in the time freed up by not attending lectures like a trained monkey; I was ready to do it too- only Turd and Turdette's attitude was something to the tune of school being the only way to learn something. Refusing to go to school would have thrown my access to books or knowledge of any kind down the toilet, and gotten me a family of abusive assholes who were now actively trying to ruin my life.


Sorry about that. Anyways, you can say that not going to school and not crushing the child's innate curiosity will save a fuckton of time and probably get them to learn skills that will be useful later on, like a new language or art.

[brainiac3397]

I propose a tribal school. Large plot of land, tribes of students, all attempting to achieve the grand award located in the center of the territory, which is run by admins and the like.

They battle with knowledge and invention.

Now I just need a billionaire investor

[SoulRiser]

Lots of interesting psychology in here... I'm gonna sticky this.

[Trekkie_Aspie]

This might help!: http://www.startschoollater.net/whats-the-big-deal.html

[Money morkel]

Performance pressures and exam stress are common for anyone but for young people with depression coping with normal levels of stress when they had other emotional issues to deal with could be difficult. Especially for those in higher education, colleges and universities, workload could be hard to manage during depressive periods and some found the exam stress made depression worse.

[schoolsux]

My parents always expect honor roll from me. I can get those grades if I gave a shit about school. Which I don't. They just anticipate that I care and want to learn the stuff in school. When I have just about 0 interest in whatever's being taught (except for band, science and math, where the classes are better IMO).

[thesupremeanarchist]

(12-27-2014 03:16 AM)lisafromjackson Wrote:  In the few conversations and interactions I've had with some of you, I've realized more and more how awful and heartbreaking is the lack of control adolescents have over their own lives. Even though so many of you are very clear about what you want, what you enjoy, and what you hate; what makes you anxious and angry, and how you feel when that gets shut down.

I'm thinking depression is a critical effect of the lack of control teens have over their lives. The fact that it seems universally acceptable to deny young people the right to some or any control over their lives at a developmental point where they should be practicing making choices and learning from successes and failures in a safer environment than they will have when they leave home -- that seems utterly nonsensical. OK, that was a really long convoluted sentence.

My point is this: frustration and anger at lack of control in school and at home is a reasonable response. Lack of power to change the situation leads to head injury from banging against brick walls. But the brick walls don't move, and it is again a perfectly reasonable response to become depressed.

I'm thinking about fleshing this out in our informational pamphlet to parents. The idea is, perhaps parents who aren't changing their thinking despite conflicts with kids might take something seriously if they think their kids are becoming depressed.

Those of you who like to do research can help me out -- I'm looking for research evidence that ties school-as-usual, the rise in testing and standardization and the increasingly regimental nature of school to mental illness in adolescents.

I understand you exactly. I do wish that us teens had more rights than we do. Personally, I live in a place where the situation is 'do it or else'. So, I go to school and spend a day of hell, worrying about being framed for bullshit I didn't do and that the athletes who give the staff head wouldn't get in trouble for. Then, I come home and always feel threatened by the oppression. That is why my way of thinking is so radical. I always try to find more solutions to problems like those. But, like you said about banging heads against brick walls, it literally is symbolic of the teen and parent relationship in most families. Then, when you have a family like mine that couldn't give a fuck less, it personally pisses me off. To be honest with you, if I had the cash and the time, I would buy a big area of land where teens who need to escape for a while to think and make their own decisions.
But, to be honest with you, I am not sure that most parents actually do care for their kids. At least, that is the notion I have got, being oppressed for so long and persecuted even if I get one question wrong on a stupid test that won't benefit me in the long run, anyways. I feel that the abolishing of the compulsory school system should happen and teens should get more rights to do what THEY wanted and prepare themselves for THEIR agendas, not the parent's dream. I may sound radical to you, and my views are definitely radical, I will admit, but are they truly disturbing? I know one thing; since the parents are so hellbent on suppressing our thoughts and true feelings by lying about our opinions to the government who controls everyone, we should be hellbent at raising above their expectations and making lives for ourselves, so that one day we can speed into the town in an expensive car and show them that their oppression has formed us to be a person which is far out of their reach and, most possibly, their league. Also show those punks who believe that fucking school staff is the way to get anywhere. I've always been told that I'll end up working at McDonalds for my beliefs, but I can honestly say that comments like those make me want to go higher up in society. Starting with buying a vehicle and packing up and moving out.
Sorry about any shitty grammar, I wrote this at 12:30 in the morning and I'm tired as fuck, but also I can't sleep. Oxymoron, maybe (tired insomniac), but it describes me.

[Will]

I read lots of education research years ago, and I found the papers in this field to be of particularly variable soundness compared to those in other fields. That is, I found really good stuff, really bad stuff, and lots of stuff in between. Actually, maybe I'm being too generous; there's a lot of decent stuff like in every field, but there was also a lot of completely invalid statistics.

I got the impression that these were written by people who intended to go into teaching as a requirement for their education degrees and that the focus was thus not on expanding the scope of knowledge on education. This happens in every field, but it seemed so widespread in education that assessing the rigor of studies and finding sound papers wasn't worth the effort.

But if you do want such research, Alfie Kohn is a good place to start.



I think you need the research in order to to appeal to peoples' trust in their particular authorities (ethos). Once you have satisfied that, you can also present the more practical consideration that I do for everything: You have to do things that you like doing, because what's the point otherwise (pathos)? And in addition to being the only reasonable way to do things, it actually works; let me explain (logos). People are smart enough to instinctively like doing things that are worthwhile, and when they are allowed to do this stuff, they get good at it.

[Emily Stephan]

For many, depression or their low moods had had an effect on their school work. Some described being “among the top groups” in the class, “a model student” or “the clever one” but their marks had dropped drastically after being diagnosed or during depressive episodes. Some felt it was hard to focus on school work when they had “no energy”, “couldn’t function”, felt “apathetic” or had little or no motivation.

[the Analogist]

When I was unemployed for over a year, I had a daughter an addition to my two sons.

I wear a large beard because I am Muslim but have to find work because money. My parents were always telling me I need to shave to get a good job and it was quite funny to me when I heard from my mother that help with rent would not happen except on the condition that I shave. I can't remember where rent came from that time, but I got a job shortly thereafter and haven't needed to ask since. I think my dad is still secretly mad about that.

What kept me in a horrible slump was the fact that my work experience was all over the place. never got promoted, never did anything seriously valuable, and got fired a few times. Once for being Muslim, but I could never prove it to anyone who could do anything about it.

So there I sat on a day I was finally motivated to fill out screen after screen of job experience, fucking apartment history?, questionnaires to assess me for being a dumbass, all the while getting frustrated at the needs and cries of my kids for diaper changes and attention. Many unhelpful adults in my life *cough* parents *cough* were of course sending the vibe that this was all my own fault, and "how come your not making a ton of money with your english degree?"

Got a call from apple. I said "the only time frame i would need off would be Fridays at mid-day for my prayers". Response "oh, we need complete flexibility"... still not enough to take to the EEOC.

Got called for an interview from a company. scheduled it. Saw that they visited my linkedin profile afterward and said "lets reschedule"... no beards in their company's pictures for sure.

How do I format my resume!? How do i make myself presentable!?!!? How does anybody get a damn job these days!?!

I watched this video from Art of Manliness
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5Xyk3iQTJE

I then began to act like this. My power is limited. I should first prioritize my own home since my kids have a right over me. I should then take whatever time I actually have applying to companies and stuff. I can't make companies love me or even value me when I get hired, but I can at least act unbroken.

Be happy with my kids at home even though their "bum dad" needs food stamps to feed them. Smile when job hunting even though people are judgmental assholes. Childish people will perhaps always find a way to affect your life, but remember who the real childish one is? The one who finds a reason to exclude others... is that childish? The one who mocks you to like-minded friends... is that childish? To throw a tantrum when you don't get what you want... is that childish?

I came to the conclusion that my "depression" was a big-boy tantrum and I started to instead do the things that a manly responsible man would do. The unemployed man's job is to find work, and like a working man, he shouldn't let his job interfere with his family. I quit my second job after I got two since I was left with so little family time, plus I was still basically poor anyway.

If you survive another day it is a victory. If you can by your actions command your emotions, then nobody can break you. Let them win every single battle, because your strategy will win the war!

Maybe I am wrong though. This was just my own story.

[Ilija.m]

(12-27-2014 03:16 AM)lisafromjackson Wrote:  In the few conversations and interactions I've had with some of you, I've realized more and more how awful and heartbreaking is the lack of control adolescents have over their own lives. Even though so many of you are very clear about what you want, what you enjoy, and what you hate; what makes you anxious and angry, and how you feel when that gets shut down.

I'm thinking depression is a critical effect of the lack of control teens have over their lives. The fact that it seems universally acceptable to deny young people the right to some or any control over their lives at a developmental point where they should be practicing making choices and learning from successes and failures in a safer environment than they will have when they leave home -- that seems utterly nonsensical. OK, that was a really long convoluted sentence.

My point is this: frustration and anger at lack of control in school and at home is a reasonable response. Lack of power to change the situation leads to head injury from banging against brick walls. But the brick walls don't move, and it is again a perfectly reasonable response to become depressed.

I'm thinking about fleshing this out in our informational pamphlet to parents. The idea is, perhaps parents who aren't changing their thinking despite conflicts with kids might take something seriously if they think their kids are becoming depressed.

Those of you who like to do research can help me out -- I'm looking for research evidence that ties school-as-usual, the rise in testing and standardization and the increasingly regimental nature of school to mental illness in adolescents.

Recently i found i that i have depression college depression that is but this is manifest that i go there to be educated but the people there are not about the topic there is depression among high schoolers in the world everyone has it but they are just doing testing more which i do not approve facts learning is not good here and why we are still allowing them to test our kids and learning the facts for one subject and then test them is not perfect.

[brainiac3397]

(02-18-2016 08:53 AM)the Analogist Wrote:  When I was unemployed for over a year, I had a daughter an addition to my two sons.

I wear a large beard because I am Muslim but have to find work because money. My parents were always telling me I need to shave to get a good job and it was quite funny to me when I heard from my mother that help with rent would not happen except on the condition that I shave. I can't remember where rent came from that time, but I got a job shortly thereafter and haven't needed to ask since. I think my dad is still secretly mad about that.

What kept me in a horrible slump was the fact that my work experience was all over the place. never got promoted, never did anything seriously valuable, and got fired a few times. Once for being Muslim, but I could never prove it to anyone who could do anything about it.

So there I sat on a day I was finally motivated to fill out screen after screen of job experience, fucking apartment history?, questionnaires to assess me for being a dumbass, all the while getting frustrated at the needs and cries of my kids for diaper changes and attention. Many unhelpful adults in my life *cough* parents *cough* were of course sending the vibe that this was all my own fault, and "how come your not making a ton of money with your english degree?"

Got a call from apple. I said "the only time frame i would need off would be Fridays at mid-day for my prayers". Response "oh, we need complete flexibility"... still not enough to take to the EEOC.

Got called for an interview from a company. scheduled it. Saw that they visited my linkedin profile afterward and said "lets reschedule"... no beards in their company's pictures for sure.

How do I format my resume!? How do i make myself presentable!?!!? How does anybody get a damn job these days!?!

I watched this video from Art of Manliness
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5Xyk3iQTJE

I then began to act like this. My power is limited. I should first prioritize my own home since my kids have a right over me. I should then take whatever time I actually have applying to companies and stuff. I can't make companies love me or even value me when I get hired, but I can at least act unbroken.

Be happy with my kids at home even though their "bum dad" needs food stamps to feed them. Smile when job hunting even though people are judgmental assholes. Childish people will perhaps always find a way to affect your life, but remember who the real childish one is? The one who finds a reason to exclude others... is that childish? The one who mocks you to like-minded friends... is that childish? To throw a tantrum when you don't get what you want... is that childish?

I came to the conclusion that my "depression" was a big-boy tantrum and I started to instead do the things that a manly responsible man would do. The unemployed man's job is to find work, and like a working man, he shouldn't let his job interfere with his family. I quit my second job after I got two since I was left with so little family time, plus I was still basically poor anyway.

If you survive another day it is a victory. If you can by your actions command your emotions, then nobody can break you. Let them win every single battle, because your strategy will win the war!

Maybe I am wrong though. This was just my own story.

Eyy another Muslim and with a beard(though my beard isn't for religious reasons per se).

[the Analogist]

(02-23-2016 11:39 AM)brainiac3397 Wrote:  Eyy another Muslim and with a beard(though my beard isn't for religious reasons per se).

Yo wassup. We be fuzzy up in dis joint!

[SoulRiser]

There's a huge wealth of information here too:
http://eqi.org/depress1.htm

Also, I wouldn't call depression a mental illness. Or an illness at all. It's caused by thoughts and emotions, which can change according to circumstances. School is obviously a pretty major 'circumstance', and all the stress and parental overreactions that go along with it.

Quote:Here are some thoughts on what is called "chronic depression." First, let's think about about what it would mean to be "chronically cold." Let's consider a person who goes outside in the winter without a cold on. Even if they do this often, even every day, is it fair to say are chronically cold?

To say that would mean they never warm up, even if they are no longer in the cold environment. Most people, though, quite naturally do warm up once inside. It is only their environment which makes them cold.

I believe it is the same with the term "chronic depression."

from: http://eqi.org/chronic_depression_vs_environment.htm

Also this:
http://eqi.org/depr6.htm

[donaldjamesua]

Control is necessary, and yoga is a great idea, but parents support is necessary, one thing I notices, it is the environment which is responsible for such issues, and also the behavior of parents