(10-09-2014 03:28 PM)SirMarty Wrote: The only reason why [SoulRiser] isn't as involved as she was a few months ago is due to the DnE community that decided to bait and troll the hell out of this community and fracture it...
There's a lot more to it than just the events of the summer, or DnE. Soul has expressed frustration with the site at many points over the years. Beyond that, she seems to not be finding the site fulfilling or rewarding to actively work with, like many years ago. Her vent thread from a few months ago goes into that in some depth.
I think that's important to clarify... and if there's any way she might get inspired to spend more time here, I think that'd be awesome. I saw so many signs of hope and promise back in 2005-2006... but none of us had the experience or set of connections to go far beyond the forums with the education conversation. And SS never really evolved into a promotable brand, in part because of the level of darkness and chaos on the forums.
And yet, that darkness and chaos wasn't just the work of some evil trolls, it was a bona fide culture that emerged here. It was people's home away from home... their community. I would have much preferred a different kind of culture here, and many of us want to see a culture that's more focused on transforming and creating things. It's taking too long to happen!
But I don't see it so much as the work of adversarial forces, as much as something missing in terms of what all of us who want to change things have been doing. Why weren't people jumping to do things in 2012 or 2013 or earlier in 2014? There have been signs of interest, hope, and wanting to change things, even brainstorming of ideas on chats on hangouts during 2014. But it hasn't, yet, been a sustained project or set of projects.
This set of threads is a step forward in at least doing something, though. Just like some of the other steps forward.
But so many things seem to get drowned out in anger and apathy.
(10-09-2014 03:28 PM)SirMarty Wrote: The only reason DoA thinks it's bad for me to use the School Survival name is due to all the backlash he's getting from people trying to be "edgy" and certain people trying to instigate conflicts and what-not. He feels responsible for a lot of shit that isn't and wasn't even his fault.
I think that's an over-simplification. A number of us think using the name "School Survival movement" as synonymous with the ACS movement isn't the way to do things. You can still have a stickied thread, use SS to promote your ideas, etc.
I think that one detail of saying "School Survival movement" happened to be one of the things that stirred up some angry responses... not from trolls, but just from people who got angry.
(This site seriously needs to offer an anger management class or something like that...)
(10-09-2014 03:28 PM)SirMarty Wrote: Also, I have yet to see xcriteria point that out as I see him trying to moderate rather than take sides as per the posts he's mentioning me in. And, for the record, I personally disagree with your opinion, especially with what DoA told me via PMs before this jump-start to the movement was officially drafted.
Well there, I pointed it out.
I've actually done a very poor job of moderating this whole set of conversations from the beginning. It's because of things like:
1. Focusing on other things (like discussing how to transform education with people who want to help do it
2. Internet and device problems, which led to me losing one earlier attempt at a reply to the main thread.
3. Trying to figure out how to even begin to respond to all this...
4. Hoping some things will sort themselves out (Soul's strategy
(10-09-2014 03:52 PM)SirMarty Wrote:
(10-09-2014 03:34 PM)Chanku Wrote: I spend most of my fucking time on this fucking site, I have come up with several ideas, and I have put more time and effort into SS than you SirMarty.
Now I'm seeing your true colors! Go ahead and ban me, you'll really only make this worse on yourself.
So kindly fuck off and leave SS, if you want to have your own fucking movement then make your own god-damn site and run it.
Okay, lesson time.
First, I completely disagree with Chanku's reaction. In his follow-up post, he even apologized.
But, just because someone acts in an ugly manner at one point in time, doesn't mean those are their "true colors" -- as much as people often interpret things that way.
That's just as true with DoA as it is with Chanku. Both of them have acted in rather chaotic ways, and really they aren't alone.
That doesn't make it "right," or "excuse" ugly behavior, but I think it's worth stepping back and asking why
people are reacting in the way they do.
I think it's really important to avoid falling into the trap of either demonizing a person, or giving them blanket justifications. The same thing is true when reflecting on one's own actions.
(10-09-2014 03:52 PM)SirMarty Wrote: He has not acted rashly or as indoctrinating or whatever as many of you make him out to be. He was a victim of the DnE trolls and Duelix and whoever else was involved that wanted to split this community and cause major drama—which sadly worked.
At some points, he really has. He's acknowledged that.
Yes, there are reasons for it, but those reasons go beyond just being forced/victimized by villains. It's also in how he's reacted. DoA has even expressed a desire to change, and disappointment in himself for not changing.
But... the way I see it, he's now taken that too far into a defeatist attitude.
What's going on in these situations where people lash out or try to execute power-related gambits, and then withdraw, takes some work to disentangle.
It's not as simple as a single judgment for or against a person tends to make it out to be. And yet these things are
possible to make sense of with some patience, interest, and effort. That's what systems thinking
and family systems therapy
are all about. Stepping back and looking at the big picture, and the complexity of each individual human being.
(Actually, DoA -- if you're reading -- it'd be interesting to have some dialogue about that from a therapy perspective. This is as good a place as any college to learn through dialogue and real life examples!)
I'll end that lesson there... but the basic takeaway is, when getting into these emotionally-charged interactions, it's worth learning to step back and re-frame the problem. That's a skill that's absolutely indispensable for succeeding at transforming education as well.
And yet it's not a skill that's mastered overnight. I'm still learning it. But it can certainly be learned faster when one's goal is look at education as beyond school, and something that can occur every day with the right mindset.
(10-09-2014 03:52 PM)SirMarty Wrote: There's nothing for me "to see" other than who was actually responsible for what happened this past summer on SS. I know how trolling works. Hell, I've even participated in it myself on other forums and in online games. For most of the summer those ex-SS members basically derailed the forum, hijacked it, and split this community into so many parts and made us go against each other—and that's only putting it lightly.
That was a big problem, but there's more to it all than simply a matter of trolls. Trolls aside, there's been a sort of tension between the idea of SS as an out-of-the-way community for people to get support, socialize, and mess around... vs. the idea of developing SS into a larger, marketable brand with a bigger audience and greater credibility, that could actually help transform situations or the bigger picture landscape of education.
And then, there's the question of how... and actually taking steps to do any of that.
(10-09-2014 03:52 PM)SirMarty Wrote: Accuse me of whatever else you want and slander me all you like, but do NOT accuse me of hijacking School Survival and of NOT putting any time and effort into it like you have. I may not have as many posts as you have, and I may have gone through a few periods of inactivity, but I think about much of SS and this movement A LOT, and I'm doing it for the sake of cognitive refugees, pro-learners, anti-schoolers, School Survivialists—whatever you want to call them—everywhere.
I've been here ever since the forum was just brought back up after Soul shut SS down for the summer of 2012 due to the riff-raff the then-SS community and now-DnE community caused that encouraged her to almost completely give up on SS.
Well-put. I think people over-reacted in their interpretation of you trying to hijack the site, too.
(10-09-2014 09:52 PM)SoulRiser Wrote: I'm all for people actually doing things to try and make a difference in people's lives with regard to school, regardless of how practical it may or may not be. I think this particular movement should have its name changed because the association with SS is clearly causing more confusion than its worth, though.
Agreed. Also, massive change to how education works is coming, sooner or later. The question is what part each of us want to play, and what will actually help change things. Sometimes that's as simple as introducing people to an "impractical" idea. But a big part of it will be people connecting... and there are lots of places to connect, including StuVoice... which is open to being about and focusing on the issues students bring to them... not just the limited interpretation DoA and others came up with by looking at their site.
Talking to people and getting to know them goes a LONG way.
(10-09-2014 09:52 PM)SoulRiser Wrote: I want Marty and DoA to stay and feel as welcome as possible here... we need more people like them. Please don't fuck this up. If their influence here goes away... that would be bad.
Agreed. These two are some of the core set of people who have written long and engaging text on the site, among many other things. We need more of that... and to edit it into something we can show to more people.
And their passion for change is actually helping some conversation happen. We all just need to find better ways to not get caught up in walking way or lashing out. In Crucial Conversations, those reactions are labeled "silence" and "violence" -- and either one disrupts the progression of an important conversation or set of conversations.