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The School Survival Movement: Abolish Compulsory Schooling
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GamerGurl Away
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Post: #61
The Abolish Compulsory Schooling Movement

I have been discussing with Soul and I will be re-stickying this again. I believe she stickied it a while back but either another Forum Assistant is un-stickying it or there's a bug that was explained earlier that's causing it.

I'll elaborate more on using School Survival's name in terms of sponsorship, progress, and marketability so I'm on the fence in changing the title to what it once was. From what Soul and I were discussing I want to clear up some confusion and elaborate on maybe a couple of other things.

(10-10-2014 05:32 AM)brainiac3397 Wrote:  Id have preferred those remained since they were not entirely provacative. It was flammable opinions I was after, not opinions that were sharp and somewhat stingy.
Indirectly (or directly? o.O) they still had to do with what was nonconstructive and derailment so that's why I split those posts as well.

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(This post was last modified: 10-10-2014 05:38 AM by GamerGurl.)
10-10-2014 05:34 AM
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Post: #62
RE: The Abolish Compulsory Schooling Movement

I think bug with mobile. Pretty sure the unsticky box in quick reply is unchecked in full site mode but it still unsticks when I post mobile.

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(06-14-2013 08:02 AM)Potato Wrote:  watch the fuq out, we've got an "intellectual" over here.

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10-10-2014 05:41 AM
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GamerGurl Away
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Post: #63
RE: The Abolish Compulsory Schooling Movement

(10-10-2014 05:41 AM)brainiac3397 Wrote:  I think bug with mobile. Pretty sure the unsticky box in quick reply is unchecked in full site mode but it still unsticks when I post mobile.
Yeah, I got no problem with either now. I just want some transparency is all, from Forum Assistants, mods, and regular members alike. Smile So if someone feels that something was wrongly moderated or whatever, please speak up. I'll try and remain more composed next time myself, but I make no promises. Razz

Anyways, I personally thought mostly everyone was on the same page in terms of School Survival. Hell, even DoA's poll that asked of what your real opinion was of America's public schools kind of encouraged that optimistic viewpoint I had. Most people either voted for non-compulsory schooling or for the complete abolishment of the system altogether. Those who voted for something else were either trolling or are the minority and don't agree with the kind of radicalism that the majority wants.

When I used School Survival as a part of the "name" for the movement's jump-start, it was only to be used for these exact 3 purposes:
  • To serve as a catalyst for the movement.
  • To improve this movement's marketability and progressiveness across related educational reform groups, movements, and the like.
  • To serve as a legitimate sponsor and endorser in order to further heighten the movement's legitimacy and credibility.

DoA and I wanted all Survivalists within our forum, namely the cognitive refugees (I personally use each term synonymously), to come together and help us jump-start this movement.

School Survival is the only one of its kind. As I've said before you won't find School Survival anywhere else on the web. There are loosely similar communities you could find on FB, but mostly just focus on being able to be homeschooled, unschooled, etc. You have StuVoice, but DoA and I have mentioned many times how it's not the same as SS.

Chanku suggested that I should make another forum and do this there, but I don't have the connections, resources or even experience to maintain and progress a forum. Furthermore, we would be our own name and it would make it a lot more difficult for DoA and I to market and progress ACS without the School Survival name. Albeit a terrible one, as an example, it would kind of be like Animal Planet without Discovery Communications.

I apologize if using the School Survival name (but I will not apologize for requesting this be stickied) meant that I was speaking for everyone on this forum. That wasn't my intention at all. Hopefully what I said above clarifies that.

I realize some of you want to make some small or moderate changes—and maybe even tackle that first before moving on to something as radical as this—but DoA and I simply don't agree with that approach. I'm really not sure what more I can say here. As for Soul, I believe she's just for freedom so for her the approach doesn't really matter.

And then there's some of you who don't want to be associated with this kind of radicalism whatsoever, but just think of how radical it was when freedom from slavery was going to be fought for, or when people started fighting for LGBT rights. More and more people are starting to fight for LGBT rights, and more and more states are legalizing gay marriage. I don't see how trying to fight against COMPULSORY schooling makes us look like right-wing Christian extremists. As long as we don't sound like them I don't think most people will see us that way, but that's beside the point.

We'll still have pro-school detractors no matter how we approach this and no matter how we try to market and progress this, because at the end of the day we'll be trying to end compulsory schooling. But most important of all, I'm not trying to associate you with this if you don't want to be associated with it. Just read the 3 exact purposes for this movement.

Lastly, as for those being contrarian just for the sake of doing so, all I really have to say is that it seems like you're just wanting to cause more drama and instigate more conflicts.

I hope that makes things way more clear. I'm still quite on the fence on changing the thread's title. I think Chanku did that. :/

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10-10-2014 06:30 AM
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Post: #64
The Abolish Compulsory Schooling Movement

I did change it(although to be honest it's not something I wanted to do it was an attempt at trying to try and calm myself down(which largely failed causing me to have a moment of insanity))

Pretty Much my only signature...I'm mainly a lurker....you can find me on the IRC (or on DnE and their IRC).

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10-10-2014 06:55 AM
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GamerGurl Away
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Post: #65
RE: The Abolish Compulsory Schooling Movement

(10-10-2014 06:55 AM)Chanku Wrote:  I did change it(although to be honest it's not something I wanted to do it was an attempt at trying to try and calm myself down(which largely failed causing me to have a moment of insanity))
Yeah, I don't like it when people edit my posts. I put a lot of thought and work into it, and it makes things confusing in the terms that I might not have what I wrote before.

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10-10-2014 07:02 AM
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Post: #66
The School Survival Movement: Abolish Compulsory Schooling

Hi, I hope you don't think I'm butting in, since this is only my second post on this site.

I love this thread. And I like that Hans and Marty and DoA, etc., are yelling at each other about the subject matter. The yelling tone makes me pay attention more, and I don't think your arguments count as trolling, it really sounds like you're trying to hash out legitimate issues. Please don't stop yelling. Please don't try to agree on a common viewpoint just yet, because you are all taking this discussion to a really interesting place. I just hope you can do this and not take any of it personally.

I actually have some things to say other than to pat you on the head, but I'm gonna go eat and raise my blood sugar a little.
10-17-2014 12:46 PM
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brainiac3397 Offline
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Post: #67
RE: The School Survival Movement: Abolish Compulsory Schooling

So basically your saying. "Kids,Stop fighting! You forgot your bayonets!"

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(06-14-2013 08:02 AM)Potato Wrote:  watch the fuq out, we've got an "intellectual" over here.

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10-17-2014 02:45 PM
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Post: #68
The School Survival Movement: Abolish Compulsory Schooling

Up above someone said that abolition of compulsory schooling was not as disruptive to society as abolition of slavery. I think that it'd be worse. The slaves, after they were freed, probably had a marketable skillset in whatever it is they used to do, without pay. When people come out of a modern factory school, all they have is just a piece of paper called a diploma, which means they are now officially employable, even though they don't have any practical skillsets. True learning of any sort seems to begin after you get your job. So if lots of people suddenly didn't go to school, they would run around trying to gain a practical skillset, which I'm sure is not easy and would take a good long time, even under the best of conditions. But people coming out of school are stupider than if they had never gone; as many other people have said, school infantilizes us. So gaining practical skills, realizing the need for them in the first place, then figuring out what you want to do in life, then figuring out what you might be good at, becomes that much harder immediately after the "Abolition of Compulsory Schooling" apocalypse. And then there's the obvious: not all of the population in the South consisted of slaves, but practically everyone goes to school.

And then there are the teachers and administrators. I don't know what to say about them at the moment, except that they would fight something like this tooth and nail, obviously. Can anyone say how many teachers and educational people there are, as a percentage of the population?

I'm not sure, but I'm inclined to think that excising school out of society in any meaningful way, even if not completely, would be so difficult to accomplish that it would be easier to break up our civilization entirely and just begin again.
10-17-2014 06:49 PM
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The School Survival Movement: Abolish Compulsory Schooling

I made an assumption in the previous post:

(I think that) "Abolition of Compulsory Schooling" will end up meaning "Abolition of the Current Public Education System".

Basically, I think so many people feel that school is such a lousy system that once no one forces you to go, so many people will opt out that it will not be economically sustainable, ie, it'll run out of funding. The whole structure will collapse.
10-17-2014 08:07 PM
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RE: The School Survival Movement: Abolish Compulsory Schooling

So logically the idea would be to make it better...

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(06-14-2013 08:02 AM)Potato Wrote:  watch the fuq out, we've got an "intellectual" over here.

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10-18-2014 05:22 AM
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The School Survival Movement: Abolish Compulsory Schooling

Huh? What are you talking about, Brainiac?
10-18-2014 06:01 AM
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RE: The School Survival Movement: Abolish Compulsory Schooling

If you make it a not lousy system, not forcing people to go will no longer be economically unfeasible.

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(06-14-2013 08:02 AM)Potato Wrote:  watch the fuq out, we've got an "intellectual" over here.

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10-18-2014 10:03 AM
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GamerGurl Away
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Post: #73
RE: The School Survival Movement: Abolish Compulsory Schooling

(10-18-2014 10:03 AM)brainiac3397 Wrote:  If you make it a not lousy system, not forcing people to go will no longer be economically unfeasible.
You both bring up good points.

Even though I disagree with your assessment of the outcome would be worse than slavery, bigaloof, some of what you said concluding your point is quite warranted. We are in for quite the fight (if the ACS movement even gets there) since the government makes a lot of money from school attendance; however, we don't know how many would continue and would not continue attending right now, and there's no need to automatically assume that the majority would stop attending.

Even if the majority of students stopped going to school, these individuals are entitled to do so because being coerced to do so infringes their civil liberty of bodily integrity. I believe this also connects to the 13th Amendment to the Constitution, which abolishes slavery and indentured servitude, and that compulsory schooling falls within indentured servitude.

Whether this would cause the system to collapse or not is another topic—relevant to this, though—but I don't think anyone can predict that.

Wouldn't the government be able to start applying public school reforms if non-compulsory schooling was enacted anyway? If they so believe that they're the ones who can educate us and their system is better at it, then they should be able more than capable to solve any monetary losses that might come with non-compulsory schooling, along with the aid of other students, teachers, and admins who do care about the system.

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10-18-2014 10:38 AM
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Post: #74
RE: The School Survival Movement: Abolish Compulsory Schooling

Its like how some argue a tyrannical government is better than anarchy. I personally believe status quo is only a path to developmental stagnation. Anarchy and chaos are what create progress.

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(06-14-2013 08:02 AM)Potato Wrote:  watch the fuq out, we've got an "intellectual" over here.

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10-18-2014 03:24 PM
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Post: #75
RE: The School Survival Movement: Abolish Compulsory Schooling

(10-18-2014 03:24 PM)brainiac3397 Wrote:  Anarchy and chaos are what create progress.

Wars are especially good for starting progress.
10-19-2014 05:37 AM
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The School Survival Movement: Abolish Compulsory Schooling

This will be a war. A war without bloodshed, extreme violence, armed combat, and the like. Giggle

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10-19-2014 09:31 AM
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Post: #77
The School Survival Movement: Abolish Compulsory Schooling

All these things sound like communism! We all know Obama is a no good Communist Atheist Muslim WHO WANTS TO DESTROY OUR FREEDOM!
(This post was last modified: 10-19-2014 09:43 AM by MurkScribe.)
10-19-2014 09:41 AM
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RE: The School Survival Movement: Abolish Compulsory Schooling

War is death. Death paves the way to life. Life is destructive. Destruction is chaos. Chaos is progress. Progress is war.

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10-19-2014 10:40 AM
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Post: #79
The School Survival Movement: Abolish Compulsory Schooling

It's not the "compulsory" part of "compulsory schooling" that bothers me, it's the "schooling". If schools actually turned out smart, decent adults who could contribute meaningfully to society, I wouldn't mind if they were compulsory. How would schools improve if they were voluntary?

Government has tried to make schools better since there was such a thing as modern factory schooling, I suspect. School is a government system, and congresspeople, presidents, senators, etc, love to tinker with systems. I guess it's an easy way to make yourself look good for the next election. Has it ever gotten better?

Has there ever in the history of the world been a proposal asking for less money for schools? Every election cycle I can remember comes with at least one proposal on the ballot having to do with schools, usually several, and at least one asks for more money. And I'm pretty sure that education takes up a majority of the budget in every state. I would love to hear from anyone for whose state this is not the case, as well as other countries. Because it takes up a majority of state governments (by money), I think that if it were dismantled it would collapse those governments.

Yes, if just a few folks decided not to go to school, then maybe everything would stay intact. But I don't see how that would improve anything.

I think the government has only ever seen schooling as a cash cow; they've never had an interest in improving it. I don't think schools can be improved anyway; they're flawed at the core and need to be taken out.

Although I think the more important question is, what should take its place, like Hans said a while back. What kind of a world do you want?

I said the *state* governments would collapse. I don't know how the federal government would react. But I think one of the things wrong with the US, and all nations really, is that they're too big, just like corporations are too big, just like the school system is too big. All schools across the West(1) are really not that different from each other. Oh, sure, they make a big deal about how some country gets better test results than ours, like Finland now, and I think Singapore a couple yrs ago, but I don't think that really matters in the long run. Everyone just copies each other, and sometimes that's a good thing (maybe), but in our day and age, copying each other in general has gone way too far.

I don't know what a better world would look like, but I think that having fifty different states experimenting with different, truly, radically different, ways of doing education would be a good start. And not just states. You could bring it down to the municipal level. (Same goes with healthcare, btw.)

Murkscribe, what's bad about communism?
10-19-2014 04:06 PM
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GamerGurl Away
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Post: #80
RE: The School Survival Movement: Abolish Compulsory Schooling

(10-19-2014 04:06 PM)bigaloof Wrote:  It's not the "compulsory" part of "compulsory schooling" that bothers me, it's the "schooling". If schools actually turned out smart, decent adults who could contribute meaningfully to society, I wouldn't mind if they were compulsory. How would schools improve if they were voluntary?
Oh jeez, I'd still be as much as opposed to this as I am with the current schooling we have. As cliché as it sounds people like different things and have different opinions.

Whether schools would be in a better state or not, they'd improve because those who actually care about school would continue attending. Those who don't care about the system, who don't want to be in that type of environment, who don't want to surround themselves with other people who go, who would rather be somewhere else doing different things, and would want to be around other people wouldn't be disrupting classrooms, schools, and even the judicial system. It's a win-win.

I'm against virtually compulsory anything really, schooling being possibly at THE top of that.

(10-19-2014 04:06 PM)bigaloof Wrote:  Government has tried to make schools better since there was such a thing as modern factory schooling, I suspect. School is a government system, and congresspeople, presidents, senators, etc, love to tinker with systems. I guess it's an easy way to make yourself look good for the next election. Has it ever gotten better?

Has there ever in the history of the world been a proposal asking for less money for schools? Every election cycle I can remember comes with at least one proposal on the ballot having to do with schools, usually several, and at least one asks for more money. And I'm pretty sure that education takes up a majority of the budget in every state. I would love to hear from anyone for whose state this is not the case, as well as other countries. Because it takes up a majority of state governments (by money), I think that if it were dismantled it would collapse those governments.
I can't answer this myself TBH since I don't follow politics all that much.

(10-19-2014 04:06 PM)bigaloof Wrote:  Yes, if just a few folks decided not to go to school, then maybe everything would stay intact. But I don't see how that would improve anything.
You think the system would be improving if school was actually fulfilling a majority of educational opportunities and was still kept compulsory, compelling the minority who don't want to be there by still being there? Doesn't matter if majority or minority, if someone doesn't genuinely want to assist or improve something they don't like or don't care about how can they contribute to anything at all?

(10-19-2014 04:06 PM)bigaloof Wrote:  I think the government has only ever seen schooling as a cash cow; they've never had an interest in improving it. I don't think schools can be improved anyway; they're flawed at the core and need to be taken out.
One of the main reasons school is compulsory is because the government makes money from attendance and standardized testing, so I agree here.

As for schools not being able to be improved, I think I disagree on that. It would be improved even if the system was taken out; it would just possibly be constructed in another format. Many of us would know the system preceding it, basically being a precursor to the new one.

I'd be surprised though, if this movement got anywhere and it would mean the collapse of the public school system.

(10-19-2014 04:06 PM)bigaloof Wrote:  Although I think the more important question is, what should take its place, like Hans said a while back. What kind of a world do you want?
Well I can't speak for all of those that would partake in this, but what I would want for those people personally, is a world where they have the educational independence to pursue what they want and how they want it, without any government body regulating it, and if they want to discontinue school and pursue absolutely any other tasks then they should have the absolute power to do so. Some things people want to focus more on require little to possibly even no continued schooling at all, so why should they be compelled to attend if it's overall a waste of time, regardless if it helps a majority or people or not?

(10-19-2014 04:06 PM)bigaloof Wrote:  I said the *state* governments would collapse. I don't know how the federal government would react. But I think one of the things wrong with the US, and all nations really, is that they're too big, just like corporations are too big, just like the school system is too big. All schools across the West(1) are really not that different from each other. Oh, sure, they make a big deal about how some country gets better test results than ours, like Finland now, and I think Singapore a couple yrs ago, but I don't think that really matters in the long run. Everyone just copies each other, and sometimes that's a good thing (maybe), but in our day and age, copying each other in general has gone way too far.
I personally feel that first statement is a slippery slope fallacy, among other things, Hans was very guilty of in his posts, so I'd rather not go there again.

(10-19-2014 04:06 PM)bigaloof Wrote:  I don't know what a better world would look like, but I think that having fifty different states experimenting with different, truly, radically different, ways of doing education would be a good start. And not just states. You could bring it down to the municipal level. (Same goes with healthcare, btw.)
As long as that "education" isn't compulsory, then I'm all for it. No education is compulsory—ever.

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10-19-2014 08:29 PM
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Post: #81
The School Survival Movement: Abolish Compulsory Schooling

I think that school is like an abusive parent. It makes you think you should love it when in fact it is destroying you and then when you look back on it, after you are no longer school age, you wish you never had a relationship with it. That's why I'm not concerned about whether children want to go to school or not. One of the most horrible things school does is make you numb to what you actually want, and numb to whether something is hurting or helping you.
10-19-2014 09:35 PM
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RE: The School Survival Movement: Abolish Compulsory Schooling

Of course schools ask for money. Education has no financial return. It has to be subsidized by somebody, whether govt,parents,or students(in case of college). Maybe even philanthropists.

I disagree with the cash cow concept because a public school isn't a profit company. Even if they made money, it would probably have to be handed over to the district government. Of course with the amount of money being pumped into the system, some scum companies take payment both from schools and students and able to charge high prices based on some nonsense about improvement.

There is no such thing as a big government in the sense of being too big. Proper bureaucratic and administrative management along with a healthy dose of decentralization coupled with today's advanced communication technology means that no government can be too big to fail if they ensure taking the right actions to govern the expanse of people and territory.

The USA has a pretty decentralized system under the Federal form of government. In reality, the states are what make up the federal government. Each state has county governments. Each county government has city governments. With all the laws and policies in place as well, the "collapse" of any government is difficult because there would always be someone(s) to move up and refill the void position to prevent total collapse.

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(06-14-2013 08:02 AM)Potato Wrote:  watch the fuq out, we've got an "intellectual" over here.

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10-20-2014 02:56 AM
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The School Survival Movement: Abolish Compulsory Schooling

Split posts to Split Discussions. Discuss it there:
http://forums.school-survival.net/forumd...php?fid=53

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10-20-2014 09:10 AM
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Post: #84
RE: The School Survival Movement: Abolish Compulsory Schooling

(10-20-2014 02:56 AM)brainiac3397 Wrote:  Of course schools ask for money. Education has no financial return. It has to be subsidized by somebody, whether govt,parents,or students(in case of college). Maybe even philanthropists.
/Agree

(10-20-2014 02:56 AM)brainiac3397 Wrote:  I disagree with the cash cow concept because a public school isn't a profit company. Even if they made money, it would probably have to be handed over to the district government. Of course with the amount of money being pumped into the system, some scum companies take payment both from schools and students and able to charge high prices based on some nonsense about improvement.
Of course public school isn't a for-profit company, but I think it is a cash cow in the sense that the government (and possibly school district) makes money from attendance and performance of standardized testing.

Thoughts?

(10-20-2014 02:56 AM)brainiac3397 Wrote:  The USA has a pretty decentralized system under the Federal form of government. In reality, the states are what make up the federal government. Each state has county governments. Each county government has city governments. With all the laws and policies in place as well, the "collapse" of any government is difficult because there would always be someone(s) to move up and refill the void position to prevent total collapse.
Also, this.

However, what do you think about those that have jobs making a living executing the laws that make kids stay in school? If ACS is even remotely successful, I can't imagine there being truancy cops, court "supervisors", and truancy judges anymore.

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10-20-2014 09:32 AM
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Post: #85
RE: The School Survival Movement: Abolish Compulsory Schooling

Just products of the flaws. Like the railroads of the 19th century, they started and prostitutes,criminals and smugglers followed.

In the end such workers are another financial drain. When the clog is fixed, the leak will follow(in order of repair).

Also its difficult for government to "make money" because of how administration works...which is via budgeting. So realistically making money doesnt guarantee keeping it. The district and state does get grants and such for attendance and performance, but my understanding is that the money is earmarked for educational spending only. This could mean better salaries, but such public institutions have financial matters due aided by a seperate body, like city govt and district board of ed.

So realistically, money for education is only reserved for education and the allocation is decided by others so those within don't have any personal gain motivations simply because there isn't a likelihood of it(sans the occasionally corrupt).

Government works far differently than business or even logic(sometimes the illogical option is pursued due to the existence of protocol that makes the logical option illegal or potentially vulnerable to corruption)

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(06-14-2013 08:02 AM)Potato Wrote:  watch the fuq out, we've got an "intellectual" over here.

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10-20-2014 12:34 PM
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Post: #86
RE: The School Survival Movement: Abolish Compulsory Schooling

The line between government and business is mighty blurry.

If you want to be a different fish, you've got to jump out of the school.


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10-20-2014 01:27 PM
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brainiac3397 Offline
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RE: The School Survival Movement: Abolish Compulsory Schooling

Except for the part that government can be held accountable to public by law whereas a business is often private and in no way required to reveal any information.

Disregarding any of that pain in the assness some govt agencies can give you when you request information(till you threaten to file a lawsuit, do file a lawsuit, or speak with a high level official)

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(06-14-2013 08:02 AM)Potato Wrote:  watch the fuq out, we've got an "intellectual" over here.

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10-20-2014 01:49 PM
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Post: #88
RE: The School Survival Movement: Abolish Compulsory Schooling

Once a business sells to the government they become to that degree public sector in practice but businesses that only sell to the government consider themselves to somehow be playing a role in privatization and magically adding competition to the equation. That's like everything sold to schools. Free market communism.

If you want to be a different fish, you've got to jump out of the school.


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10-20-2014 02:05 PM
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Post: #89
Abolish Compulsory Schooling – The Social Media Pages

Now, my friends, as my friend Sasuke said, it's time for a revolution!!

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The social media pages of Abolish Compulsory Schooling are now complete.

http://forums.school-survival.net/showth...?tid=34429 – Official Thread and Forum
Abolish Compulsory Schooling – FB Page
Abolish Compulsory Schooling – FB Group
http://www.youtube.com/user/AbolishCSMovement – YouTube
http://www.twitter.com/AbolishCS

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10-20-2014 02:26 PM
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Post: #90
RE: The School Survival Movement: Abolish Compulsory Schooling

After careful thinking and consideration, yes, I will officially lend support to the Abolish Compulsory Schooling movement, and it should be one of the many parts of School Survival and reviving the School Survival movement. I may not agree with the position of abolishing compulsory education immediately, but I can see that there is a large enough crowd to cater.

SirMarty, I think you should consider making a website for this, with it's own separate forum, etc. The thing is, School Survival is too vague to house your movement. The beauty of it all is that many of the people here who hate school have different positions on things, etc and different personalities, etc. I'm thinking we need to keep creating more sites, etc. SSN and ACS (Abolish Compulsory Schooling) should have different goals with different communities that are nonetheless parallel. We can cooperate with StuVoice, etc. What I'm thinking is that we need to divert as much as we can without being too disunified. It was a mistake to try to homogenize SS and focus on specific goals. The key to jumpstarting our movement and ideologies is to have a variety of options. Or else, we're shooting ourselves in the foot with the same one size fits all model.

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10-26-2014 04:18 AM
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