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The School Survival Forums are permanently retired. If you need help with quitting school, unsupportive parents or anything else, there is a list of resources on the Help Page.

To everyone who joined these forums at some point, and got discouraged by the negativity and left after a while (or even got literally scared off): I'm sorry.

I wasn't good enough at encouraging people to be kinder, and removing people who refuse to be kind. Encouraging people is hard, and removing people creates conflict, and I hate conflict... so that's why I wasn't better at it.

I was a very, very sensitive teen. The atmosphere of this forum as it is now, if it had existed in 1996, would probably have upset me far more than it would have helped.

I can handle quite a lot of negativity and even abuse now, but that isn't the point. I want to help people. I want to help the people who need it the most, and I want to help people like the 1996 version of me.

I'm still figuring out the best way to do that, but as it is now, these forums are doing more harm than good, and I can't keep running them.

Thank you to the few people who have tried to understand my point of view so far. I really, really appreciate you guys. You are beautiful people.

Everyone else: If after everything I've said so far, you still don't understand my motivations, I think it's unlikely that you will. We're just too different. Maybe someday in the future it might make sense, but until then, there's no point in arguing about it. I don't have the time or the energy for arguing anymore. I will focus my time and energy on people who support me, and those who need help.

-SoulRiser

The forums are mostly read-only and are in a maintenance/testing phase, before being permanently archived. Please use this time to get the contact details of people you'd like to keep in touch with. Send me a message if you'd like to keep in touch with me & Steve.

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Poll: Should The Basement be Kept?
This poll is closed.
YES, it should STAY 82.35% 14 82.35%
NO, it should GO 17.65% 3 17.65%
Total 17 vote(s) 100%
* You voted for this item. [Show Results]

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Should The Basement Go?
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GamerGurl Away
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Post: #1
Should The Basement Go?

So as Soul suggested, she wants the community to start handling the way the forum is managed, for the most part. Or at least, it seems like she hinted that from my POV.

(08-21-2014 05:15 AM)SoulRiser Wrote:  I'm not doing jack squat about this. You guys sort it out and make a decision. I don't work here anymore. Razz

In regards to The Basement and what should be done with it, I've decided to post a poll as to whether or not it should be closed.

I'm not sure if some people are playing, well... rather dumb, purposefully or whatever regarding the real reason why The Basement exists but I think it's time that that section of the forums is closed.

I was being rather vague as to what purpose The Basement serves for a variety of reasons, most notably I didn't want to call-out certain individuals or groups, nor did I really think I should of had to say why since it's clear virtually everyone here knows what purpose it serves, but to those playing pretend like they don't know the reason why it exists, it's because it's to keep most of the veteran members, mainly those before the SS Shutdown of 2012, pretty much isolated from the rest of the forum.

Many of these individuals who're of a previous generation of SS'ists, for some reasons, post in a very toxic-like manner and excuse that behavior with the "freedom of speech" card. Now this would make sense if they owned a forum for this Trojan horse riff-raff behavior, but it's as though they almost feel like their entitled to express this behavior across ALL forums. Too bad how forums are run and how its rules are executed and interpreted aren't up to them, and I can't even begin to fathom how their behavior is even relevant to the objectives and philosophies of SS at all.

Of course, some of these individuals are only doing this for the sake of doing so so that's why The Basement is there, but a few have gotten permanently banned due to going overboard with this behavior.

First and foremost, The Basement is a group section of the forums you have to manually apply to to gain access to it. However, that doesn't matter because it's clear that before the forums shutdown temporarily for 3 weeks many of the content posted in it had to do with the state of affairs of the forums, and it went as far as some calling out certain forum members and even criticizing the very forum they were a part of in an extremely antagonistic manner.

Maybe not everyone can see The Basement but it's clear that it serving to pretty much justifying this toxic behavior really kills the morale of the community and it doesn't help at all. All it promotes is more and more attacks and that's not what any forum needs. It being an optional group to join is an extremely stupid excuse to justify it leaving it as is as it's clear that a lot of the content being posted still pertains to SS or its members, and when that's done it's usually done so with lots of hostility.

Secondly, The Basement only promotes more trolling, and not of the good kind. It makes most of these individuals feel that being able to get an extremely emotional or overly negative response out of whoever they're targeting and their tactics (which usually involve slamming SS somehow) justified.

Thirdly, I think it's time to move on and actually focus on the anti-school movement and being able to help new members survive school and its aftermath. Since The Basement promotes a lot of this riff-raff that also seems to almost always be relevant to SS in some way, that takes away from what SS is trying to focus on and that is trying to upstart the anti-school movement and getting people stuck in school the resources they need to survive it if they don't have other options.

The Basement is just asking for drama and that'll take away activity from the rest of the site.

Also, we have a new generation of SS'ists here who actually do care about the movement, they do care about its members and activity, and they most certainly have the compassion for SS and the motivation to keep believing in us. We have to move on from the rest who don't really seem to care anymore, and who probably felt like they were being ostracized from the rest of the forum anyways.

The Basement promoted segregation to separate these particular forum members from the rest of the community, but that only caused the majority of us to focus on them and their drama and it could've scared off potentially new members, because it certainly did cause certain regulars to call it quits, at least until things were straightened out.

Even if some of these individuals did still care about SS, they posted things that they shouldn't have posted and with the way they act they can't be taken seriously anymore and I could probably go as far as say that they can't be trusted due to their nasty behavior.

Lastly, whatever else I left out is most likely in the thread which you can find by clicking Soul's quote that I provided or I can't think of it since it's almost 3:30am and I'm getting a bit tired.

As for the poll, I believe majority rules. If more yeses than noes, then it's only fair that The Basement stays but if it happens to be more noes than it should be closed for good.

A slight replacement for The Basement could be provided once things have returned to normalcy in SS, but this probably won't be for a long while. If anyone thinks that The Basement toxicity would only move to the rest of the forums, well then the people who want to continue with their Trojan horse behavior can say hello to the moderators. Smile

NOTE: Please post with the option you voted for! Those who voted and did NOT post with the option they voted for will not have their vote counted. I'm doing this to make sure the poll represents who chose what as accurately as possible and to prevent the poll from being "trolled."
Never mind. Razz

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(This post was last modified: 08-21-2014 05:55 PM by GamerGurl.)
08-21-2014 05:21 PM
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Sharpie Offline
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Post: #2
RE: Should The Basement Go?

I'm fairly certain that even if you remove/replace the basement this toxic behavior will continue to exist, decent mods or not.


Perhaps instead of looking to remove or replace a section of the forums that many members enjoy, for various different reasons, you should look to change how this toxic behavior is handled and find more effective ways to do so. That way, the basement can stay and you can deal with said toxic behavior. Everyone wins.


Edit: i voted yes

Ps you can see who voted on what by clicking see results
(This post was last modified: 08-21-2014 05:42 PM by Sharpie.)
08-21-2014 05:41 PM
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Post: #3
Should The Basement Go?

It needs to stay in order to allow people to be stupid and blow off some steam. People on the main forums should be a bit more serious in what they post.

BTW I voted it YES it should stay
(This post was last modified: 08-21-2014 06:05 PM by Evan92.)
08-21-2014 06:04 PM
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Post: #4
RE: Should The Basement Go?

(08-21-2014 05:41 PM)Sharpie Wrote:  I'm fairly certain that even if you remove/replace the basement this toxic behavior will continue to exist, decent mods or not.


Perhaps instead of looking to remove or replace a section of the forums that many members enjoy, for various different reasons, you should look to change how this toxic behavior is handled and find more effective ways to do so. That way, the basement can stay and you can deal with said toxic behavior. Everyone wins.


Edit: i voted yes

Ps you can see who voted on what by clicking see results
I'm going to sound rather blunt here so excuse my tongue on this part.

How do you think this toxic behavior should be handled and in what effective ways can we handle it? Because if you ask me, cowardly splitting/deleting the posts won't do much if anything at all. These Trojan horses will only seek to exploit the rather compassionate moderation system the unofficial community team is trying to employ on SS. Not only that, just continually splitting these posts will be a huge waste of time for the forum assistants and mods, and deleting them will mess up discussions and create confusion in them.

IMO the only way of dealing with them is by actually starting to "lay down the law" and hand out temporary warnings or infractions in which who is moderated and what diatribe they post would be handled at the discretion of the moderator.

And before anyone says anything concerning "freedom of speech," no, that BS move does not excuse any of their behavior whatsoever. The unofficial community team is trying to setup rules and guidelines that are as lenient as possible but it's clear that some of these individuals will seek to take advantage of this system within a forum that clearly promotes and even justifies their behavior.

Anyone is free IMO to appeal their warning/infraction but I don't want our system to be exploited so they can continue with their blatant attacks on SS.

As for how many members do enjoy The Basement, we'll let the poll decide that for us. I'm not saying it isn't enjoyable but it's clearly been exploited by certain individuals so they're able to go on a smearing campaign against us.

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08-21-2014 06:18 PM
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Gwedin Offline
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Post: #5
RE: Should The Basement Go?

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08-21-2014 06:57 PM
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Sharpie Offline
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Post: #6
RE: Should The Basement Go?

Lemme rephrase


I'm fairly certain that no matter what you do, this toxic behavior will continue to exist and trolls will continue to exist. It's a fact of life on the internet, especially on SS apparently. Wasn't the frag arena removed for similar reasons? We all see how effective that was.


There isn't much you can really do to stop them short of shutting down the forums forever, but I'm pretty sure that's what they want to begin with. Therefore, since removing the basement won't really help, why remove it?
08-21-2014 07:23 PM
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Post: #7
Should The Basement Go?

So we need to remove the people doing the shitposting, not the place they're doing it in.

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08-21-2014 10:45 PM
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Post: #8
RE: Should The Basement Go?

(08-21-2014 10:45 PM)SoulRiser Wrote:  So we need to remove the people doing the shitposting, not the place they're doing it in.
Either one works for me.

Why doesn't the poll have an undecided option, anyway?

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08-22-2014 02:26 AM
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RE: Should The Basement Go?

Quote:riff-raff

How very divisive. Does that seem helpful to you?

It's a fact not only of SS but of the internet in general that removing the place set aside for less desirable things will only result in it being spread around the other areas of the forum. Just look at the SomethingAwful forums. They deleted their version of the basement. Shitposting didn't go away. It only migrated to the rest of the forums.

You have to understand that when a vanguard have formed, they will resent attempts by later waves of users to reform the fundamentals of the community, and especially attempts by the new wave to purge or cleanse the old hands, or any implication that such is necessary. Is this "riff-raff" set the vanguard or the new wave that is now being pushed out by a new wave of the old guard? I don't know. What you call "riff-raff" was the old and established when I got here, and it's what I love and want to preserve. I question this insistence that coexistence is impossible.

Part of what I loved about SS when I came here was that it was a refuge from what I then saw as the fascists of school administration and their constant nitpicking and suppression of my expression of how I really felt about things. We have to consider carefully before taking that away, and think about whether such a heavy-handed approach as suggested is really necessary.

The idea that allowing behavior you don't like will somehow take something away from "the movement" is badly reminiscent of the administration's paranoia about keeping "on task" lest we be "distracted".
08-22-2014 03:39 AM
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Ky Offline
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Post: #10
Should The Basement Go?

Look, if the intentions of this "vanguard" are solely to coexist with us, then why aren't they attempting to compromise?

Our unofficial moderation team has bent over backwards to protect the interests of shitposters, cynics, and trolls, and when I quit catering to them and gave them what they deserved, xcriteria reversed it and kicked me out! Yeah, the Frag Arena might be closed, but Soul gave the Random-dwellers the benefit of the doubt by adding an extra subforum dedicated to constructive discussion. She rearranged the subforums, knowing full well that many users were ignoring the guidelines anyway, and established only a few subforums in which that is not permissible. She was hesitant to establish a system of rules, but now we have a small list of rules with all the strength of a suggestion and all the enforcement of the "do not remove" tag on a mattress, same as the guidelines before them.

These changes are half-measures that benefit the older users more than anyone else. And what did the newer users get in return? Bitching. Complaining. Flaming, even. This appeasement has accomplished nothing. The so-called vanguard has not in any way been dissuaded from telling new users to "run while they still can", or condescendingly informing moderators that they have no power and deserve all the hate they get, or spreading the word that nothing any of us do is going to make any difference. They accuse newer users of circlejerking when they've been performing that routine for years; it's the same shit I saw when I first joined, except there wasn't as much of it.

(08-21-2014 07:23 PM)Sharpie Wrote:  I'm fairly certain that no matter what you do, this toxic behavior will continue to exist and trolls will continue to exist. It's a fact of life on the internet, especially on SS apparently. Wasn't the frag arena removed for similar reasons? We all see how effective that was.

Perhaps our mistake was not also removing the users who made the most use of it. (I mean, we did for the most part later on, but that's only after we gave them second, third, fourth, and umpteenth chances not to troll.)

If it has to exist, let it exist somewhere else. You, in particular. I don't even know why they let you back in here after what you did to the chat, let alone all the stuff before that.

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08-22-2014 04:50 AM
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Post: #11
Should The Basement Go?

Look, I understand that you're trying to end the Eternal September, so to speak, and I appreciate that. I would love for there to be good discussion again. However, getting rid of the place reserved for shitposting is not going to contribute to that. As vonunov said, getting rid of the place for shitposting is going to cause it to spread to the rest of the forums.

If you want good discussion in most of the forums, lay down the law about that. But keeping no place for shitposting is counterproductive.

(This will probably be edited out, but I love how DoA profusely apologizes for what he's done and then turns around and goes all Messiah mode again)

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08-22-2014 06:30 AM
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Post: #12
RE: Should The Basement Go?

Quote:You, in particular. I don't even know why they let you back in here after what you did to the chat, let alone all the stuff before that.



Quote:"Keep all personal arguments in private or anywhere off the forums. We don't need that stuff in public."
08-22-2014 06:47 AM
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RE: Should The Basement Go?

(08-22-2014 06:30 AM)Alistoriv Wrote:  Look, I understand that you're trying to end the Eternal September, so to speak, and I appreciate that. I would love for there to be good discussion again. However, getting rid of the place reserved for shitposting is not going to contribute to that. As vonunov said, getting rid of the place for shitposting is going to cause it to spread to the rest of the forums.

If you want good discussion in most of the forums, lay down the law about that. But keeping no place for shitposting is counterproductive.
If it spreads to the rest of the forums, why not simply punish those responsible? There is a place for shitposting, and that place is not here (with the exception of most/all of the General Talk subforums - that's what they're there for).

What's counterproductive is telling you guys "Oh, hey, you can't do that, that's against what few rules we have, but, mmm, that's okay, go right ahead, I won't do anything". And the moderators wonder why they can't keep the peace; as terrible a negotiator as I am, I was probably the strongest one they had regardless.

(08-22-2014 06:30 AM)Alistoriv Wrote:  (This will probably be edited out, but I love how DoA profusely apologizes for what he's done and then turns around and goes all Messiah mode again)
First of all, I find it highly unlikely that your comment will be edited out. People have become numb to others targeting me, and probably won't do anything about it as a result. I can understand the reason for the "it's okay if you do it to DoA" mentality, annoying as it is.

Second of all, what I'd done is in the past. I got called out on my shit, I quit doing shit, and I paid my penance for shit. Did that stop the rest of you? No. I'm obviously not going to go about it the same way, but I will continue to speak out against the toxicity that has claimed our forums.

Finally, I don't know where you're getting the whole "Messiah" thing from. I'm neither a chosen one, hero, anointed person, godsend, nor freakin' Nerevarine; I'm just a random forumgoer who's sick and tired of the old guard stomping on the meaning of their old stomping grounds, and I'm just trying to do something about it.

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Post: #14
Should The Basement Go?

Alright so I am undecided. While I think it would be better to slowly phase it out, but I don't think it should go, at least not at this time. I feel like getting rid of it right now would be a bad move for the most part because we have a mix of 'cultures'. The Old Guard are more used to the things that go on in random and view that as being a part of what SS is, while the New Guard doesn't. The New Guard views it as something that should go and is not needed for SS. While there are exceptions to this, this is generally what I'm seeing. There is also no one good answer, until a culture becomes the dominant one.

Also I want to point out that people ARE going to shit post, and if we don't allow them an area to do so, then they WILL find a place to shit post and that area will be everywhere on the forums. Perhaps we could establish some rules for Random, and moderate it a bit more so this way things that would have been found in the Frag Arena will be moved there.

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08-22-2014 06:58 AM
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RE: Should The Basement Go?

(08-22-2014 06:47 AM)Sharpie Wrote:  
Quote:You, in particular. I don't even know why they let you back in here after what you did to the chat, let alone all the stuff before that.

Quote:"Keep all personal arguments in private or anywhere off the forums. We don't need that stuff in public."

Congratulations, you're a rules lawyer. That's original.

I can play that game too.

(07-12-2014 03:32 AM)SoulRiser Wrote:  No trolling (deliberately trying to cause conflict or drama).

While very few of us have upheld this rule amidst the various crises of the recent past (and I know I certainly haven't), you, Sharpie, in particular, are on par with Duelix for the severity and number of violations of the "no trolling" rule ever since it was introduced.

Here's something I haven't tried before, and something, in your case, I'm not going to try again: I'm going to ask nicely.

Would you please withdraw from the School Survival forums, and never return?

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08-22-2014 07:04 AM
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Post: #16
RE: Should The Basement Go?

(08-22-2014 07:04 AM)DoA Wrote:  Would you please withdraw from the School Survival forums, and never return?

Really? I've done much worse shit than this and yet I persist and no-one (for some reason) has thrown shit at me for it. What has Sharpie done, that was so wrong?
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08-22-2014 07:28 AM
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RE: Should The Basement Go?

(08-21-2014 10:45 PM)SoulRiser Wrote:  So we need to remove the people doing the shitposting, not the place they're doing it in.
Okay, it's clear that most of you do want it to stay, I won't argue that fact. The poll will last around a week long BTW, and the reason why there is no "in between" option is because I think we need to start making decisions now. If we only keep debating on and on about what should be done we'll never get anywhere, just like Congress.

Anyways, you guys seem to be okay NOW with the unofficial mod team laying down the law so to speak; however, look at how that landed most of the mod team and "New Order" in hot water earlier this summer. So if you guys are okay with the mod team executing and interpreting the forum rules in The Basement, then I think it's more than fair to say that whatever warnings and infractions are imposed on they're more than fair.

Furthermore, any public posts discussing the warnings/infractions they've received should be subject to more sanctions. I don't mind discussion of forum moderation unless it's discussing whatever you were sanctioned for because that only causes major drama. I also don't want to see another "<user's name>pocalypse" occurring again.

DoA, now when you were banning people you gave reasons such as "edgy" or "super edgy" or things along those lines, and I say if the mod team is going to give warnings/infractions they need to be done way more professionally. I believe a PM should be sent to the user being sanctioned for what, for how long (if applicable), and quotes the evidence in the PM that proves what rule(s) they've broken. And at the end of the PM it should state to PM the community team if the user feels like they were wrongfully sanctioned.

Soul, if such a system were implemented the community team could share a forum account called "CommunitySupport" that'll have mod privileges and that each of the mods have access to so they can send these PMs and are able to receive appeals instead of all of this being handled on their personal accounts. This will also be easier for the mod team to discuss a user's appeal since they're able to see the user accused and know which mod handled the case.

(08-22-2014 03:39 AM)vonunov Wrote:  
Quote:riff-raff

How very divisive. Does that seem helpful to you?

It's a fact not only of SS but of the internet in general that removing the place set aside for less desirable things will only result in it being spread around the other areas of the forum. Just look at the SomethingAwful forums. They deleted their version of the basement. Shitposting didn't go away. It only migrated to the rest of the forums.

You have to understand that when a vanguard have formed, they will resent attempts by later waves of users to reform the fundamentals of the community, and especially attempts by the new wave to purge or cleanse the old hands, or any implication that such is necessary. Is this "riff-raff" set the vanguard or the new wave that is now being pushed out by a new wave of the old guard? I don't know. What you call "riff-raff" was the old and established when I got here, and it's what I love and want to preserve. I question this insistence that coexistence is impossible.

Part of what I loved about SS when I came here was that it was a refuge from what I then saw as the fascists of school administration and their constant nitpicking and suppression of my expression of how I really felt about things. We have to consider carefully before taking that away, and think about whether such a heavy-handed approach as suggested is really necessary.

The idea that allowing behavior you don't like will somehow take something away from "the movement" is badly reminiscent of the administration's paranoia about keeping "on task" lest we be "distracted".
Correlation does not always equal causation.

Firstly, as for the shitposting plaguing the rest of the forums, that only happened because whoever over there was in charge let that happen. It could've easily been dealt with in a professional manner but for whatever reasons that happened. I can't really say how or why because I've never been a part of those forums or heard of them until now.

You may want to preserve the "Old Guard's" riff-raff, but it is because of their antics that landed the "New Guard" of SS and its unofficial community team in hot water and it's what caused SS to temporarily shutdown.

I was even explicitly told by a certain forum member that some of them are only slandering SS and/or targeting forum members just for the sake of doing so. Is this what you love? I'd be appalled to love and want to preserve this because it is because of this "Old Guard" stomping on the meaning of their old stomping grounds. That is why we can't continue to coexist with these people any longer.

If SS is to improve we need to move on and focus on the new generation of SS because the old generation is clearly a lost cause. Hell, some of these guys are a lot older than the new generation of SS and probably gave up on this movement long ago. If that's the case they really have no place here anymore. This forum isn't for everyone and the mod team shouldn't have to cater to a group of individuals who don't even care about SS in the first place.

LOL Rolleyes are you serious? Comparing what I'm trying to do to the school administration's actions? You know at least school administrations have the huevos to carry things out no matter how shitty their decisions are. That is what I'm trying to do but it's for the betterment of SS and you know it so please don't compare me to those fascist ******.

The antics of the "Old Guard" have caused them to overstay their welcome and if SS is to truly move on then we need to start actually doing stuff about it.

Although DoA did go overboard at least he didn't have a tail in between his legs like the rest of the mod team has. I'm not sure if it's because of lack of mod experience, inability to interpret and carry out the forum rules, extreme patience with this riff-raff, etc., it's clear that we need to start making changes in order to prevent what happened to SS this past summer.

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08-22-2014 07:59 AM
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Sharpie Offline
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Post: #18
RE: Should The Basement Go?

DoA should i quote that rule again or did you get it the first time/you don't care?


Also, care to tell me what i did that puts me on par with duelix? Preferably via PM, so the thread isn't derailed.
08-22-2014 09:01 AM
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NiteRaidah Offline
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Post: #19
Should The Basement Go?

Keep it. Something tells me that getting rid of it won't magically make all those "evil" problems go away. The world very rarely, if ever, operates like that.

If that particular forum bothers you so much...then I have a wonderful suggestion...don't read it. Don't add yourself to the usergroup to view it. Pretend it doesn't exist. Magic (referring less to forum helpers who have to "deal with" all that and more to whatever rank-and-file posters who could potentially find their proverbial jimmies rustled).

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08-22-2014 10:01 AM
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Post: #20
RE: Should The Basement Go?

(08-22-2014 10:01 AM)N.R. Wrote:  Keep it. Something tells me that getting rid of it won't magically make all those "evil" problems go away. The world very rarely, if ever, operates like that.

If that particular forum bothers you so much...then I have a wonderful suggestion...don't read it. Don't add yourself to the usergroup to view it. Pretend it doesn't exist. Magic (referring less to forum helpers who have to "deal with" all that and more to whatever rank-and-file posters who could potentially find their proverbial jimmies rustled).
However, you can't just pretend it doesn't exist because it's clear it has too much say on how SS is run (at least somewhat) and what happens to it even though it's supposed to seclude a certain group away from the rest of the forum.

IMO I'm not butthurt by it but I'm aware that it's exacerbated the issues that happened a couple of weeks ago. If it helps, I'll be leaving the group shortly but my stance won't change.

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08-22-2014 10:18 AM
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Post: #21
Should The Basement Go?

The problem remains that there are people who have to "deal with" it, yet it's so clearly avoidable.

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08-22-2014 10:20 AM
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SwiftEscudo Offline
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Post: #22
Should The Basement Go?

Remember kids, this isn't what democracy looks like.

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08-22-2014 10:28 AM
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brainiac3397 Offline
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Post: #23
Should The Basement Go?

Sorry lads, but I had to vote yes.
(Gwedin offered to make me Supreme Emperor Of Random and Such)

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08-22-2014 10:33 AM
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Post: #24
Should The Basement Go?

inb4 votes are ignored and mods get rid of it anyway

funny how the mods and the rest of the users have completely different ideas

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08-22-2014 10:36 AM
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Post: #25
RE: Should The Basement Go?

(08-22-2014 10:36 AM)SwiftEscudo Wrote:  inb4 votes are ignored and mods get rid of it anyway

funny how the mods and the rest of the users have completely different ideas
If you're implying I'm a mod, I'm not. I have no power whatsoever as to what they do and how they go about their processes in moderation. I'm only an Assistant.

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08-22-2014 10:46 AM
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Ky Offline
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Post: #26
RE: Should The Basement Go?

(08-22-2014 10:36 AM)SwiftEscudo Wrote:  funny how the mods and the rest of the users have completely different ideas

This isn't true in the slightest. Aside from the other oldfafs, the only people willing to show you any sympathy are most of the mods, considering xcrit's trying to lead them to a nonexistent middle ground.

Then there's SirMarty and I, who, right now, seem to be at odds with pretty much anyone who isn't neutral. Of everyone who's neutral, Soul and Chanku appear to be the most outspoken about it, but most of the neutral users are staying out of this altogether.

The problem isn't a split between users and mods. The problem is a split between parts of the userbase itself.

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08-22-2014 11:03 AM
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Post: #27
Should The Basement Go?

"Oh, somebody mentioned the mods in my thread? They must be implying that I'm one."
wat

EDIT: This is directed at SirMarty

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(03-20-2013 05:08 PM)brainiac3397 Wrote:  Stand up with pride and say "No! I will not be a McDonalds employee. I WILL BE A GARBAGE MAN!"

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08-22-2014 11:04 AM
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vonunov Offline
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Post: #28
RE: Should The Basement Go?

(08-22-2014 07:59 AM)SirMarty Wrote:  Correlation does not always equal causation.

Right, not always, but that doesn't mean correlation should be ignored, nor that the correlation isn't sometimes the same as the cause. In my example, there was no other likely cause for what happened. This is like the slippery slope fallacy. Just because a slippery slope argument can sometimes be fallacious doesn't mean there's never a slippery slope.

Quote:Firstly, as for the shitposting plaguing the rest of the forums, that only happened because whoever over there was in charge let that happen. It could've easily been dealt with in a professional manner but for whatever reasons that happened. I can't really say how or why because I've never been a part of those forums or heard of them until now.

The SA forum mods are generally very good at keeping up with shitposting (strongly prohibited there) but in this case I understand that it overran their ability to do so. I haven't been on in a while but I bet they may have it under control by now. The difference is that they have a large and effective moderation team, whereas we have ... this.

Quote:You may want to preserve the "Old Guard's" riff-raff, but it is because of their antics that landed the "New Guard" of SS and its unofficial community team in hot water and it's what caused SS to temporarily shutdown.

I'm really not sure what you mean about landing anyone in hot water. Maybe you could elaborate on that one.

Quote:I was even explicitly told by a certain forum member that some of them are only slandering SS and/or targeting forum members just for the sake of doing so. Is this what you love? I'd be appalled to love and want to preserve this because it is because of this "Old Guard" stomping on the meaning of their old stomping grounds. That is why we can't continue to coexist with these people any longer.

No, that's not the sort of thing I go for. As you've probably seen, I did once let loose on someone here, but in that case I was super pissed at what seemed to me to be an injustice and an abuse of power. Attacking people on the internet isn't my idea of a good time.

I think that sort of thing is just as damaging a contribution to the us-vs-them mentality as what's coming from you and others of the new wave. When a community splits, there will always be some attempt by the members of one to feel superior to those of the other so as to justify where they've chosen to be. But if we're interested in actually bringing peace rather than crudely excising whatever elements we dislike, this kind of thinking won't help, whether it's the new wave of SS seeing the old as incorrigible, or the old acting like the new have nothing of value to contribute and are only to be made fun of.

Quote:If SS is to improve we need to move on and focus on the new generation of SS because the old generation is clearly a lost cause. Hell, some of these guys are a lot older than the new generation of SS and probably gave up on this movement long ago. If that's the case they really have no place here anymore. This forum isn't for everyone and the mod team shouldn't have to cater to a group of individuals who don't even care about SS in the first place.

I notice again that you're focused on the movement. This isn't all there is to the place, though. SS never has been very good at getting anything done, and I've always been fine with that. When I was still in school, I just wanted an escape, commiseration, and some tips for getting through the daily troubles, not some grand revolutionary plan. I was never very hopeful that anything ever could be done to change the system very much. The best solution I saw to any of it was for each individual to try their best to get out of the system entirely.

So, no, I don't care about the movement -- rather, I don't believe there's much the movement can accomplish. Do I then have no place here? It seems silly to suggest that there's nothing here for anyone who isn't interested in the movement, and even more so to try to make it that way. You know, I really never heard anyone here say that not caring about the movement was a real problem before you came along. Sure, people would talk about the problem of once caring about the youth rights movement and then phasing out of it once it no longer affected them, but I never saw anyone imply that disinterest in it was some kind of threat to this community. It really seems like you've built that up as some kind of bogus additional reason for giving certain people the boot. Where did we ever establish that it matters whether someone cares about the movement?

Quote:LOL Rolleyes are you serious? Comparing what I'm trying to do to the school administration's actions? You know at least school administrations have the huevos to carry things out no matter how shitty their decisions are. That is what I'm trying to do but it's for the betterment of SS and you know it so please don't compare me to those fascist ******.

I don't see how continuing to do what you're doing no matter how bad an idea it turns out to be is a good thing. Boldness is a virtue to a point. All things have a point of diminishing returns, and even of counterproductivity. I'm not saying definitively that what you're doing is a bad decision. That's what we're talking about right now. But your reasons and intentions don't necessarily justify the actions.

Besides, that's not really the point. I'm saying that one of the things I loved about this place was that it didn't feel like school, and now I see changes coming that are going to make the place feel like the place I haven't had to deal with for several years now. I no longer need this refuge the way I once did, but I still care for it, and I don't want it taken away from me or the others like me who will come.

Quote:Although DoA did go overboard at least he didn't have a tail in between his legs like the rest of the mod team has. I'm not sure if it's because of lack of mod experience, inability to interpret and carry out the forum rules, extreme patience with this riff-raff, etc., it's clear that we need to start making changes in order to prevent what happened to SS this past summer.

Again with the "balls" thing. Extreme confidence doesn't fix everything. I'd say it usually just makes things worse. We don't need leaders with the "huevos" to do whatever they're going to do no matter what. We don't need leaders who form their own beliefs about how the community should be and then try to make that the reality. We don't need leaders who are going to try to keep the community the way they want it, if they do manage to change it. We need leaders who are truly interested in keeping a community -- all parts of it -- together, and who will make an earnest and open-minded effort to integrate the inevitable changes into the existing model.
08-22-2014 01:07 PM
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Post: #29
Should The Basement Go?

We need someone with churros.

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08-22-2014 01:25 PM
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Post: #30
RE: Should The Basement Go?

(08-22-2014 01:07 PM)vonunov Wrote:  
(08-22-2014 07:59 AM)SirMarty Wrote:  Correlation does not always equal causation.

Right, not always, but that doesn't mean correlation should be ignored, nor that the correlation isn't sometimes the same as the cause. In my example, there was no other likely cause for what happened. This is like the slippery slope fallacy. Just because a slippery slope argument can sometimes be fallacious doesn't mean there's never a slippery slope.

Quote:Firstly, as for the shitposting plaguing the rest of the forums, that only happened because whoever over there was in charge let that happen. It could've easily been dealt with in a professional manner but for whatever reasons that happened. I can't really say how or why because I've never been a part of those forums or heard of them until now.

The SA forum mods are generally very good at keeping up with shitposting (strongly prohibited there) but in this case I understand that it overran their ability to do so. I haven't been on in a while but I bet they may have it under control by now. The difference is that they have a large and effective moderation team, whereas we have ... this.

Quote:You may want to preserve the "Old Guard's" riff-raff, but it is because of their antics that landed the "New Guard" of SS and its unofficial community team in hot water and it's what caused SS to temporarily shutdown.

I'm really not sure what you mean about landing anyone in hot water. Maybe you could elaborate on that one.

Quote:I was even explicitly told by a certain forum member that some of them are only slandering SS and/or targeting forum members just for the sake of doing so. Is this what you love? I'd be appalled to love and want to preserve this because it is because of this "Old Guard" stomping on the meaning of their old stomping grounds. That is why we can't continue to coexist with these people any longer.

No, that's not the sort of thing I go for. As you've probably seen, I did once let loose on someone here, but in that case I was super pissed at what seemed to me to be an injustice and an abuse of power. Attacking people on the internet isn't my idea of a good time.

I think that sort of thing is just as damaging a contribution to the us-vs-them mentality as what's coming from you and others of the new wave. When a community splits, there will always be some attempt by the members of one to feel superior to those of the other so as to justify where they've chosen to be. But if we're interested in actually bringing peace rather than crudely excising whatever elements we dislike, this kind of thinking won't help, whether it's the new wave of SS seeing the old as incorrigible, or the old acting like the new have nothing of value to contribute and are only to be made fun of.

Quote:If SS is to improve we need to move on and focus on the new generation of SS because the old generation is clearly a lost cause. Hell, some of these guys are a lot older than the new generation of SS and probably gave up on this movement long ago. If that's the case they really have no place here anymore. This forum isn't for everyone and the mod team shouldn't have to cater to a group of individuals who don't even care about SS in the first place.

I notice again that you're focused on the movement. This isn't all there is to the place, though. SS never has been very good at getting anything done, and I've always been fine with that. When I was still in school, I just wanted an escape, commiseration, and some tips for getting through the daily troubles, not some grand revolutionary plan. I was never very hopeful that anything ever could be done to change the system very much. The best solution I saw to any of it was for each individual to try their best to get out of the system entirely.

So, no, I don't care about the movement -- rather, I don't believe there's much the movement can accomplish. Do I then have no place here? It seems silly to suggest that there's nothing here for anyone who isn't interested in the movement, and even more so to try to make it that way. You know, I really never heard anyone here say that not caring about the movement was a real problem before you came along. Sure, people would talk about the problem of once caring about the youth rights movement and then phasing out of it once it no longer affected them, but I never saw anyone imply that disinterest in it was some kind of threat to this community. It really seems like you've built that up as some kind of bogus additional reason for giving certain people the boot. Where did we ever establish that it matters whether someone cares about the movement?

Quote:LOL Rolleyes are you serious? Comparing what I'm trying to do to the school administration's actions? You know at least school administrations have the huevos to carry things out no matter how shitty their decisions are. That is what I'm trying to do but it's for the betterment of SS and you know it so please don't compare me to those fascist ******.

I don't see how continuing to do what you're doing no matter how bad an idea it turns out to be is a good thing. Boldness is a virtue to a point. All things have a point of diminishing returns, and even of counterproductivity. I'm not saying definitively that what you're doing is a bad decision. That's what we're talking about right now. But your reasons and intentions don't necessarily justify the actions.

Besides, that's not really the point. I'm saying that one of the things I loved about this place was that it didn't feel like school, and now I see changes coming that are going to make the place feel like the place I haven't had to deal with for several years now. I no longer need this refuge the way I once did, but I still care for it, and I don't want it taken away from me or the others like me who will come.

Quote:Although DoA did go overboard at least he didn't have a tail in between his legs like the rest of the mod team has. I'm not sure if it's because of lack of mod experience, inability to interpret and carry out the forum rules, extreme patience with this riff-raff, etc., it's clear that we need to start making changes in order to prevent what happened to SS this past summer.

Again with the "balls" thing. Extreme confidence doesn't fix everything. I'd say it usually just makes things worse. We don't need leaders with the "huevos" to do whatever they're going to do no matter what. We don't need leaders who form their own beliefs about how the community should be and then try to make that the reality. We don't need leaders who are going to try to keep the community the way they want it, if they do manage to change it. We need leaders who are truly interested in keeping a community -- all parts of it -- together, and who will make an earnest and open-minded effort to integrate the inevitable changes into the existing model.
So there's a lot to respond to but I don't have anything new to say as I don't want us going in circles and I don't want to antagonize you further if you feel that's what I'm doing to you.

Are you in the neutral area? Do you want the mods to work with the whole SS vs. DnE situation to see if there can be some existence in this nonexistent middle ground? If so then more power to you, but all I have to say is that I've said what I said to you.

If I do think there's anything new I can respond with what you've told me I will gladly reply back, but I've edited my signature and included that I will be detracting myself from anymore SS vs. DnE-related debates. I don't wanna be responsible for another shitstorm since I think my approach is becoming more and more argumentative. I also want to avoid giving any more attention to the drama as another way it'll only truly go away is if no one keeps adding more fuel to the fire.

Additionally, I've left The Basement but it's up to the mods and/or Soul what happens to it. I hope the rest of you do enjoy it since it seems I am in the minority of it being removed.

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08-22-2014 01:54 PM
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