Why is reforming school so hard from a kid's POV?

[Desu]

I've only been out of school 7ish years. I've almost totally forgotten what it's like to dread the school days, facing shitty teachers/shitty kids/shitty homework I didn't do, dreading the prison-like environment of school. Honestly I mostly forgot about school like only 1-2 years after getting out.

So it's hard for me to keep caring, because it's something that doesn't directly affect me. There's many other social issues that people feel passionately about because it's something they can directly observe or experience every day (as adults), and these get more attention. When you're no longer a kid, the education system is out of sight, and out of mind.

The school administration has far too much political power, and seeks to protect its own interests. Any serious reform has to go through a series of education boards, parent teacher associations, and unions (which has political lobbying power).

Combined with the fact that minors don't have rights & freedoms, practical means of securing enough income so they aren't totally reliant on their parents, and (let's face it) the emotional development to be socially and politically relevant in the world of adults.

I don't want to say it's pointless to try... well actually I do. Schools aren't going anywhere. Period. I'm sorry but it's the truth. You can probably gain some small ground in terms of "youth rights" and shutting down reform camps and such, and changing insignificant school policies. But as for anything important in the political realm of adults? Forget it. That is a wall you will never break through.

Things like "walk outs" and "sit-ins". You won't get taken seriously. If you get media attention, the school will just wait until nobody cares about you anymore then make the school rules stricter or give you delayed punishment or send letters/phone calls home to your parents to make your life at home hell so you'll shut up.

If your goal is material change to the school system, civil disobedience only works if you can get A LOT of people involved, and on a regular basis. That isn't even counting the fact that you're all reliant on your parents for food & a place to sleep. Also if you skip too much school, in certain places your parents may face legal trouble. So good luck dealing with all of that, and at a stage in your life where you are still emotionally developing.

The better alternative is some sort of inside out approach.

I've mentioned this before, but in my English class sophomore year, I approached my teacher privately and asked her if I could read my own books and write papers on them instead of doing the class homework. She agreed and thought it was really cool. Got in A in that class and I only did a fraction of the actual classwork.

You could view this as a kind of rebellion. I didn't like the class work and I found our books boring, so I read my own and did that instead of the official class work.

Maybe you can guys think of some ways to work with the teacher so you can do your own work and get a grade on that instead. In other words, ideas for projects or whatever. You could even take a class on coursera or something.

If you're in history and your class is full of fail busy work (like mine were), interview veterans of foreign wars or historians and write an essay or make a creative report, or make an amateur documentary on a local legend.

Stuff like that.

I remember we used to say on this site "pro-education, anti-school". Here's my only idea to do that.

You have to be smart and mature if you do this. And you cannot drop the ball on the teacher if you do this. Here are my rules/suggestions if you do this.

1. DO NOT MISBEHAVE IN CLASS. EVER. This is the most important one, therefore the caps lock. Do not cause trouble. Do not be a class clown. Do not bring attention to yourself. Do not talk when the teacher is talking. You want to get treated like an adult? Act like one. If you act like a child, you will get treated like one.

2. Make a good first impression before going to the teacher about this. Give it like... 6 weeks at least. Participate in class, suck up to the teacher and play politics, get good grades. Prove to the teacher you're an adult during that time.

3. Don't go to the teacher with nothing. They're doing you a huge favor if they agree to this. Show them some of your work. Talk to them animatedly and show them how much you love the subject itself. You love the subject so much that you want to do something that goes above and beyond the class itself, because it's not enough for you. That will get them on your side.

4. Learning on your own is simultaneously harder than you think, but also more efficient. It's hard to explain... but be prepared to do more intense, but more interesting work. At least you aren't filling out grueling packets right?

5. They might say no. That's fine, this is a good time to learn an adult skill known as "persistence". Wait exactly 1 week. Continue on your good behavior and doing the class work. Also continue with your personal project. Go to them once more, update them on what you're doing, and politely ask them for a little deal. Ask them what you need to do to convince them, whatever. Repeat as much as necessary. Don't just give up.

-----

If you hate a certain subject, you probably don't hate that subject, you just hate the class itself. Or you've been taught the subject terribly. Or you had some initial bad experiences as a kid, so you tell yourself you're bad at something, and therefore you become that way. I used to hate English & social studies/history & art. I don't hate any of those subjects now. They're all intensely interesting if you know where to look.

You can subvert the school system in your own personal way by doing this. It's a way of demonstrating that the traditional classroom isn't necessary and it gives you some educational freedom.

If enough people did this, this would lead to immediate changes from the ground up. Instead asking for the impossible (muh freedumz, shut down school etc.), this is something that is actually practical and fairly significant. This doesn't involve ruining your life, and you will learn a lot in the process.

[xcriteria]

I'd say this is all good advice for those who are absolutely stuck in school-as-usual. Also, check out http://stuvoice.org/ -- it's all about dialogue within schools that's serious and credible... and it might serve as a catalyst for discussions.

That said, there's a lot going on beyond school-as-usual, and a lot more people questioning and opting out of school-as-usual these days (especially with the increased emphasize on high-stakes testing.)

Here's one story, from one of a number of learner-centric, interest-based learning centers that are springing up, slowly but surely:
http://openroadteens.org/one-members-experience/

Places like those provide a supportive learning environment that families can choose, instead of being stuck with either "homeschooling/unschooling" or "factory-model school."

Many of them are inspired by North Star Self-directed Learning and Dennis Littky's Big Picture Learning models of non-factory-model learning environments.

Here's the latest crowdfunding page for Open Road -- the description there provides quite a bit of detail about their approach.

So, I think it's entirely possible for some people dealing with school to take steps to talk to their families, network with educators who are building different models of learning (which I and others on SS have been doing, especially on G+), and find others in their communities who want to do learning the way it really should be done.

For those who are stuck in school, there's still the value of making the most of your time, capacity to learn and network online, find mentors beyond school, and even see what you can manage within school. All of this is different than the traditional School Survival "change things" approach of trying to protest.

In general, the answer is, engage in dialogue. Ask questions. Share your story. And do what's possible to connect with others in a positive way.

One basic principle in all this is, you have to figure out what kind of situation you're in -- with your family, with your school, with a given teacher, with your community, and with possible online interactions of various kinds. Some of these things will be open to change... some won't be. Sometimes it takes time, or the right strategies, to make a difference. Some parents do come around if you can figure out what their underlying interests and concerns are, and find a way to address them.

If the goal is college, there are many paths to it, and if the goal is income, there are many paths to that.

"Reforming school," in some big, overarching sense, indeed sounds difficult from a kid's POV. But I'd suggest breaking the problem down and thinking of it in a more personal -- and situational -- sense.

Thoughts?

[School]

Quote:1. DO NOT MISBEHAVE IN CLASS. EVER. This is the most important one, therefore the caps lock. Do not cause trouble. Do not be a class clown. Do not bring attention to yourself. Do not talk when the teacher is talking. You want to get treated like an adult? Act like one. If you act like a child, you will get treated like one.

Adults aren't forcefully herded in segregated classes and forced by the power of law (ie guns) to stay there. We want kids to act more like adults we have to treat them like adults. It does not work the other way around.

[Ky]

They are persistent, but they are not infinite. Rebellion might not be the right answer, but that is no excuse to cease political activism entirely.

We're seeing an abundance of political support that would have been unheard of in previous years. We can't give up when others have, or else we won't accomplish anything.

[Desu]

(07-17-2014 05:02 PM)xcriteria Wrote:  stuff

This is all good, but parents are a big problem. They have to be on board or it won't matter. Parents usually have to go to work during the day for example, and might not trust their kid at home. Parents who grew up, went the traditional school route, and lived a very average life etc. They have very average ideas about school, education, and the meaning of life.

They would be appalled at the idea of essentially letting their kid drop out of school, even though that's not a big deal. Getting a GED, then going to community college or trade school is fine, arguably better. A lot of parents view kids as these rebellious little assholes that just want to play video games and do drugs or something. So, their approach is to keep a firm hand on their kid in order to keep them in line. They would laugh at these alternative education ideas, and never EVER consider such a ridiculous thing.

Public opinion is slowly changing due to technology, and also the college route is slowly being called into question. Many people are graduating with crippling college debt and being unable to find a job with their degree.

I think school will slowly go away or transform into something quite different about 20ish years from now when technology rapidly transforms 1st world society. Millenials and generation Z, are eventually going to become parents and they will be much more open to new things.

School teaches a bunch of rote memorization and doesn't teach you how to think, how to work with groups, how to plan, how to adapt, and how to create. These things are going to be critical as people grow up in a world that will slowly replace unskilled jobs/blue collar jobs with robots. It's ridiculous to go to school for 10+ years, and becoming an adult, only to find yourself unable to thrive in society.

School is very slow to change, and this discrepancy between reality and what is being taught in school will become more and more apparent in the future. Again like... I'll give it 15 years. Eventually our technology is going to be so advanced, the web will offer unbelievably high quality and free education, and society will be undergoing extremely rapid change--school will be forced to change with it.

I'm pretty optimistic about this, dunno about you guys.

That's why I don't think it's worth it to attempt to make any significant political changes. Just worry about yourself and learn how to thrive for now. The relationships in your life will be better, and you'll be happier and find yourself growing more as a person if you do this.

---

(07-17-2014 11:45 PM)School Wrote:  

Quote:1. DO NOT MISBEHAVE IN CLASS. EVER. This is the most important one, therefore the caps lock. Do not cause trouble. Do not be a class clown. Do not bring attention to yourself. Do not talk when the teacher is talking. You want to get treated like an adult? Act like one. If you act like a child, you will get treated like one.

Adults aren't forcefully herded in segregated classes and forced by the power of law (ie guns) to stay there. We want kids to act more like adults we have to treat them like adults. It does not work the other way around.

I understand your idealism, but try convincing any school officials or your parents about your POV.

Not gonna happen. I'm offering a realistic alternative that will be better for you in the long run.

Also, life isn't fair. I'm sorry but you have to deal with it. It doesn't suddenly become fair when you get out of school either. You have to look at the hand you are dealt, and do your best to make the most out of it. That's my point here.

[School]

Quote:Not gonna happen. I'm offering a realistic alternative that will be better for you in the long run.

You don't get what I am saying. Young humans just are not generally capable of acting like adults want them to when adults treat them like babies and prisoners and most of their social interactions are with peers and the random authority figure. It is as simple as that. Honestly you are the one being idealistic, however that isn't how human nature works.

Quote:Also, life isn't fair. I'm sorry but you have to deal with it. It doesn't suddenly become fair when you get out of school either.

Late 20s, Masters degree obtained, world traveler. I know damn well life isn't fair. It IS more fair outside of school, for those of you who are in school. In general at least. Developing terminal cancer after school is definitely not fair but it happens to people. However, in general, with freedom and responsibility, life becomes fairer after compulsory schooling.

[Desu]

(07-18-2014 08:20 AM)School Wrote:  

Quote:Not gonna happen. I'm offering a realistic alternative that will be better for you in the long run.

You don't get what I am saying. Young humans just are not generally capable of acting like adults want them to when adults treat them like babies and prisoners. It is as simple as that. Honestly you are the one being idealistic, however that isn't how human nature works.

It's more difficult when you're younger sure, and school is an environment that can stunt emotional and social maturity.

But I had high school students in mind. A high school student isn't capable of not acting up in class? Most of students are capable of behaving, from elementary through high school. Are you telling me most students are incapable of not being disruptive in class?

Quote:Late 20s, Masters degree obtained, world traveler. I know damn well life isn't fair. It IS more fair outside of school, for those of you who are in school. In general at least. Developing terminal cancer after school is definitely not fair but it happens to people. However, in general, with freedom and responsibility, life becomes fairer after compulsory schooling.

Eh... It's obvious that you gain more freedom and responsibility when you leave school. It's the law. But adults generally have to deal with far more problems than a minor. When you're a minor, life is more predictable and simple.

Anyway, I dunno what you mean by "fair", but I'm not going to continue discussing this because it's besides the point and delving into semantics territory.

[School]

(07-18-2014 08:24 AM)Desu Wrote:  

(07-18-2014 08:20 AM)School Wrote:  

Quote:Not gonna happen. I'm offering a realistic alternative that will be better for you in the long run.

You don't get what I am saying. Young humans just are not generally capable of acting like adults want them to when adults treat them like babies and prisoners. It is as simple as that. Honestly you are the one being idealistic, however that isn't how human nature works.

It's more difficult when you're younger sure, and school is an environment that can stunt emotional and social maturity.

But I had high school students in mind. A high school student isn't capable of not acting up in class? Most of students are capable of behaving, from elementary through high school. Are you telling me most students are incapable of not being disruptive in class?

Eh you got me there, high school aged kids, even with the social crippling, are still very capable. Still, it's not like it's likely for them to maintain great self-control when they were never given much control their entire life. Other people controlled them and continue to do so. The rebellion is normal from a human nature perspective. Their base instincts scream for freedom. Their frontal lobe development has been stifled (which ageists often use to restrict freedom, even though they are the ones causing the issue in the first place). Youth need more adult allies.

Sadly, as you said, many grow up and forget about it. Even reinterpreting their old memories in a favorable light, instead of honestly remembering their suffering.

Things are changing though but change often takes time and a lot of it.

[brainiac3397]

Once upon a time 14 year olds would march into battle along side older folk.

Now you can't take a shit without asking for permission.

[magikarp]

Fuck being smart and mature. I dropped out of high school to drink cough syrup and it actually turned out pretty well for me.

[brainiac3397]

Wat?

So you're now cough-invincible?

[GamerGurl]

Sorry, but I don't view your ideas as a kind of rebellion. The point is you're still forced to go to school and you may not even be able to do this in every class. Some teachers may stick to protocol, others may decline but by questioning it or thinking about it.

This seems like the "ice cream in hell" point Soul pointed out on the website's homepage in the "14 Good Reasons Why School Sucks" list. Let's just say that if this got popular enough, those of us against schooling would be getting BS from detractors saying that school is good for you.

It's kind of like a fallacy because this doesn't make up for all the other BS compulsory schooling brings.

[Education Reform Movement]

Did anyone remember this petition: http://www.change.org/petitions/board-of...eft-behind

[Rule_BreakerXVIII]

(07-17-2014 11:45 PM)School Wrote:  

Quote:1. DO NOT MISBEHAVE IN CLASS. EVER. This is the most important one, therefore the caps lock. Do not cause trouble. Do not be a class clown. Do not bring attention to yourself. Do not talk when the teacher is talking. You want to get treated like an adult? Act like one. If you act like a child, you will get treated like one.

Adults aren't forcefully herded in segregated classes and forced by the power of law (ie guns) to stay there. We want kids to act more like adults we have to treat them like adults. It does not work the other way around.

It's politics, plain and simple. It's not fair, it makes no damn sense, but it still happens.

So what are we gonna do about it? The first rule is pretty sensible, it's both Satanic and Slytherin in gaining credibility and subverting the system. This advice wouldn't be sensible when said to someone going through school, but it's realistic, as Desu said. The ones who make the most noise always get punished the most, regardless of their opinions.

Quote:2. Make a good first impression before going to the teacher about this. Give it like... 6 weeks at least. Participate in class, suck up to the teacher and play politics, get good grades. Prove to the teacher you're an adult during that time.

3. Don't go to the teacher with nothing. They're doing you a huge favor if they agree to this. Show them some of your work. Talk to them animatedly and show them how much you love the subject itself. You love the subject so much that you want to do something that goes above and beyond the class itself, because it's not enough for you. That will get them on your side.

These two rules, I don't agree with. I have had horrible experiences with trying to read ahead (sent to the counsellor for not looking interested once), and I usually kept my knowledge to myself. The rules should also have a warning on them because some teachers can see it as an attack on their adult-ness and their authority to lord over their underlings. Also, I hated licking teacher butt. Ewww.

[Rule_BreakerXVIII]

(07-23-2014 10:09 PM)SirMarty Wrote:  Sorry, but I don't view your ideas as a kind of rebellion. The point is you're still forced to go to school and you may not even be able to do this in every class. Some teachers may stick to protocol, others may decline but by questioning it or thinking about it.

This seems like the "ice cream in hell" point Soul pointed out on the website's homepage in the "14 Good Reasons Why School Sucks" list. Let's just say that if this got popular enough, those of us against schooling would be getting BS from detractors saying that school is good for you.

It's kind of like a fallacy because this doesn't make up for all the other BS compulsory schooling brings.

It's a coping mechanism, something to make the hell more bearable. Don't assume that we wouldn't opt out of school altogether if given the chance.

[True Strasserist]

Haha yeah right! The Republicans are quite willing to co-op with school reforms if it means spiting the left wing teacher's unions. Quite evident in this state at least.