Capitalism: The Debate

[thewake]

There's been a lot of debate lately about capitalism lately, and it's been cluttering up some of the other threads. So, I figured, why not bring the debate into its own dedicated thread? I don't have much of anything better to do.

Why do I like capitalism?
It's free. Capitalism is a system that has the decision making apparatus spread among many different people. No one central authority controls the free market, everyone controls his own little, or big, bit of the free market.
It's moral. Ayn Rand said that capitalism is the only "moral system", because it is the only system that relies on the voluntary exchange of property. If you don't deal with money, you end up dealing with guns.
It fuels progress. The 19th Century, an era of much more unrestricted capitalism than we have today, was a time of great progress. The Industrial Revolution began our modern way of life and sowed the seeds for our current Information Revolution.
It reduces poverty. Where in the world are the poor most prosperous? Not in the former Soviet bloc. Not in Africa. It's in places like the United States or Canada where there are largely free economies that the poor have been given the opportunity to raise themselves out of poverty. I'm not saying capitalism eliminates poverty, I doubt any system can do that, but I'd rather be poor in a capitalist country than anywhere else.
It's human. People want to pursue their own self interest. Call it greed, call it whatever. That's what people want to do. The question is, in what system will greed do the least harm? One where it is used as a positive force, one where it is the engine. That's capitalism. In all these systems that profess to be more equitable and fair, human greed and desire works against the society. In capitalism, if you want to make money you have to trade your labor or your products with other people. You can't steal, that's not capitalist.
It evolves. Capitalism is ever changing, moving, progressing. In fact, no one man or group of men created capitalism. It springs up where there is a right to property and freedom of exchange. While I don't think capitalism could exist without government, government did not create capitalism. And capitalism continues to change today, meeting the needs of life in the 21st Century. People who make bad investments lose money. Entrepreneurs see an opening for a new company or product and fill that gap. Old companies with obsolete models either have to change or fail. Capitalism necessitates progress.

A clarification: When I say capitalism, I mean free market or laissez-faire capitalism. I do not mean anarcho-capitalism, mercantilism, market socialism, state capitalism, crony capitalism, or other forms. In fact, I consider all of those systems to hold the seeds of their own destruction in the way they are set up.

[SaintVicious]

BUT BUT IT ISNT ANARACHY WHICH WOULD BE GREAT AND STUFF WHY DONT PEOPLE JUST USE WHAT THEY NEED AND GIVE NONSTOP WTF GREEDY PIG

[thewake]

Comrade Wrote:BUT BUT IT ISNT ANARACHY WHICH WOULD BE GREAT AND STUFF WHY DONT PEOPLE JUST USE WHAT THEY NEED AND GIVE NONSTOP WTF GREEDY PIG

[The Desert Fox]

I disapprove of capitalism, but a combination of being too lazy and debating not being my strong point restrains me from going into detail.

[Elfy]

You could say I can vouch for free market capitalism. Weswammy sort of nailed it, it provides grounds for progress, wealth and material possession. I often hear quite a few people saying that material goods are bad and we should not rely on them, they are superficial joys etc. But hell, we aren't ghosts, just because we can live without material goods doesn't mean we should. Owning land and having property rights is also a nice step towards doing whatever the hell you want on your own property, your own private freedom without invading the beliefs or rights of others. Personally, I think it's the best system for human progression and for the general wellbeing of humans. We have to work and trade to maintain a stable society so there are enough goods and services to actually support the population. Humans are selfish, everyone wants what is best for them.

[thewake]

Elfy Wrote:You could say I can vouch for free market capitalism.... Humans are selfish, everyone wants what is best for them.

Don't forget the cheeseburgers. Cheeseburgers are a purely capitalist phenomenon.

[The Desert Fox]

Honestly, I actually think a society with a capitalist economy could actually work if some guidelines (lolpirate) were set down, for starters, making money =/= power.

[UnschoolShqiponjë]

Just wondering weswammy....why do you think anarcho-capitalism contains the seeds of its own destruction?

It is my opinion, like yours, that free-market capitalism is best...but I follow the thought that says government intervention messes with the free market and that the government itself is a territorial monopoly that allows no competition through the threat of monopolized violence.

[thewake]

The Desert Fox Wrote:Honestly, I actually think a society with a capitalist economy could actually work if some guidelines (lolpirate) were set down, for starters, making money =/= power.

What do you mean by power? Power to buy things or hire people? You have to have power over your own property for the free market to work.

I am, however, not in favor of the enormous subsidies that big business gets, or the favor big business has with government. That's not a free market, that's cronyism. Take the Interstate Commerce Commission, for example. It doesn't protect us from the big bad railroads or truckers, it just makes it hard for new people to enter the business and have competition.

Businessmen are all for a free market, except for themselves.

The errors many people attribute to the free market generally are rooted in government messing with the free market.

[HeartofShadows]

Here we go again..

[thewake]

Quote:It is my opinion, like yours, that free-market capitalism is best...but I follow the thought that says government intervention messes with the free market and that the government itself is a territorial monopoly that allows no competition through the threat of monopolized violence.

I used to be an an-cap, don't get me wrong. It's not an idea without merits, but I see some flaws in it the theory, mostly in the courts.

First, there will be no unified, objective law. Murray Rothbard said that there would be a common law that all the private, for-profit, courts would follow, but I don't buy into that. What will make the court system in anarcho-capitalism follow the laws they should follow? The market? What if the market doesn't like the non-aggression axiom, what if the market favors something else?

Second, what about enforcement of contracts? In an anarcho-capitalist society, if it follows the Rothbardian model, the private courts and police would not be able to force me to honor a deal I made with you. I can just ignore it. Yes, if I do it too much I might have a bad reputation. But there will always be some sucker waiting to be predatorized by me.
If I sue somebody that won't pay his rent, who will make him give me the money he owes me? Nobody, because there isn't a power to do that in anarcho-capitalism.

Same thing with fraud. Lies wouldn't be punished. In a free market, you can't do things under false pretenses. It messes with the flow of information that is key to it working properly. And in some cases, lies can hurt people physically.

The government, at the current time, has the power to make people testify in court, compel people to be on a jury, and search people's homes with just cause and a warrant. None of that will exist in anarcho-capitalism. If someone witnesses Bruce Wayne's parents being murdered, and they don't want to talk, they don't have to talk. A group of professional jurors doesn't seem like a jury of my peers to me, seems like a much narrower group. And don't get me started on how hard it would be to convict somebody of murder if you have to get permission to search a suspect's home.

Like I said, it's all about the court system.

[Aya]

Inb4 TA

[The Desert Fox]

Weswammy Wrote:

The Desert Fox Wrote:Honestly, I actually think a society with a capitalist economy could actually work if some guidelines (lolpirate) were set down, for starters, making money =/= power.

What do you mean by power? Power to buy things or hire people? You have to have power over your own property for the free market to work.

What I mean by that is how the CEOs, billionaires, all those guys, control the majority of the world's resources, not to mention the former often have a stranglehold on their businesses market. Let me put it this way. If a car hit me tomorrow, few people other than those directly involved and close to those involved would care, and if I tried to sue (let's ignore the fact that I'm fourteen here for a sec), you bet I'd have a hell of a time doing that. But if some big-shot company executive who owns a mansion and five cars got hit by a car, I can guarantee that he'd have no trouble tearing the guy driving the car a new one in court.

Okay looking back on it that wasn't really the best example, but you should get my point.

And here I said I wasn't going to get involved in a debate.

[thewake]

The Desert Fox Wrote:What I mean by that is how the CEOs, billionaires, all those guys, control the majority of the world's resources, not to mention the former often have a stranglehold on their businesses market.

Why do they have a stranglehold? I'd say that's usually the fault of the government giving them special favor, restricting foreign trade or making hard to abide by regulations, thus restricting new entry into the industry.
And if you control a resource, you make money. You don't see poor people walking around that own oil wells. It kind of goes with the territory.

Quote:Let me put it this way. If a car hit me tomorrow, few people other than those directly involved and close to those involved would care, and if I tried to sue (let's ignore the fact that I'm fourteen here for a sec), you bet I'd have a hell of a time doing that.

You might have a hard time, but if you can get a lawyer you would probably be able to get something from him. However, you can't get blood from a turnip. If the guy is poor, you just might as well go on your merry way. There's always been bad luck.

And people are supposed to have at least liability insurance on the road. If the guy doesn't have liability, he can get in trouble not just with you, but with the law. If the guy is following the law, and it's clearly his fault, you shouldn't have to sue him.

Quote:But if some big-shot company executive who owns a mansion and five cars got hit by a car, I can guarantee that he'd have no trouble tearing the guy driving the car a new one in court.

So? He can afford a more expensive lawyer.
Do you think connections and good ole boys clubs won't exist when the free market is gone? Of course they will. There's always been people with more influence, or pull, than others. There always will be.

Quote:And here I said I wasn't going to get involved in a debate.

I just wish I was a better debater IRL.

[SH☮TGUNHEⒶRT]

Since you are a capitalist, what are your governmental views?

[thewake]

savagesociety Wrote:Since you are a capitalist, what are your governmental views?

Libertarian.
I'm in favor of personal freedom, legalizing drugs, prostitution, gambling. Not necessarily that I want to hire a prostitute or shoot up heroin, but I think if you aren't hurting anybody you should basically be able to do what you want. I am, however, anti-abortion.

I just don't see why economic freedom and social freedom shouldn't go hand in hand, they seem very integrated to me.

[SH☮TGUNHEⒶRT]

Weswammy Wrote:

savagesociety Wrote:Since you are a capitalist, what are your governmental views?

Libertarian.
I'm in favor of personal freedom, legalizing drugs, prostitution, gambling. Not necessarily that I want to hire a prostitute or shoot up heroin, but I think if you aren't hurting anybody you should basically be able to do what you want. I am, however, anti-abortion.

I just don't see why economic freedom and social freedom shouldn't go hand in hand, they seem very integrated to me.

lol

[HeartofShadows]

Weswammy I always wanted to ask you this and I just remembered.
Is your family extremely wealthy like bobmans was because if so then capitalism makes sense.

[thewake]

HeartofShadows Wrote:Weswammy I always wanted to ask you this and I just remembered.
Is your family extremely wealthy like bobmans was because if so then capitalism makes sense.

I wouldn't say extremely wealthy, but my dad runs the family business. It's been hit hard by the recession, however. My mom works for a non-profit.

We're not bringing in as much as we used to, but we aren't poor and we have a nice house.

[HeartofShadows]

Weswammy Wrote:I wouldn't say extremely wealthy, but my dad runs the family business. It's been hit hard by the recession, however. My mom works for a non-profit.

We're not bringing in as much as we used to, but we aren't poor and we have a nice house.

Sounds very nice.
Mom must be a swell lady(or extremely bored).
Shame the recessions affecting everybody.

[SH☮TGUNHEⒶRT]

Government doesn't protect corporations from people, so why the hell do you think we'd be safe in libertarian crapitalism?

So you're basically a crapitalist who wants to smoke dope?

I'm really not buying into this. I'm sorry. I think it's crap.

Me being an anarchist, I just can't see freedom in a parasytic economic system with thoughtless consumerism of the proletariat, and hoping that the people with all the wealth and power really actually care about us and not just making money.

Also, private ownership is something i definetley have a problem with. I think rent is theft. And knocking down rainforests is shit.

And do you ignore all the fucked up things businesses and corporations have done to just about everything in the world for the sake of money?

[The Desert Fox]

Weswammy Wrote:

Quote:But if some big-shot company executive who owns a mansion and five cars got hit by a car, I can guarantee that he'd have no trouble tearing the guy driving the car a new one in court.

So? He can afford a more expensive lawyer.

This counter-point is exactly why I wasn't sure about the example I gave. I was going to say some sort of counter-counter-point here, but now I forget. Dammit.

Weswammy Wrote:There's always been people with more influence, or pull, than others. There always will be.

Of course, I just hate how who gets the influence largely depends on how big their wallet is, rather than how they act.

[UnschoolShqiponjë]

Quote:Like I said, it's all about the court system.

Interesting points. Very legitimate concerns. I remember asking an anarcho-cap about child abuse in an anarchist society before I decided to support it. His answer did persuade me...

First of all the market would have to support non-coerciveness because otherwise the anarchy and free-market would cease to exist after a while.

One problem I find with anarcho-capitalism is that it is all very theoretical. I would love to see it tested out though that probably won't happen in my life-time or ever.

[SaintVicious]

savagesociety Wrote:Government doesn't protect corporations from people, so why the hell do you think we'd be safe in libertarian crapitalism?

So you're basically a crapitalist who wants to smoke dope?

I'm really not buying into this. I'm sorry. I think it's crap.

Me being an anarchist, I just can't see freedom in a parasytic economic system with thoughtless consumerism of the proletariat, and hoping that the people with all the wealth and power really actually care about us and not just making money.

Also, private ownership is something i definetley have a problem with. I think rent is theft. And knocking down rainforests is shit.

And do you ignore all the fucked up things businesses and corporations have done to just about everything in the world for the sake of money?

And anarchy would protect anyone rofl you always say you dont like such and such but you done provide any alternative.
Also dont act like anyone hasnt done something fucked up.
People who dont own a huge corporation will still do horrendous things for money.
All your arguements are bunk until you can provide a reasonable solution that isnt a perfect world scenario like people just taking what we need.

[Elfy]

savagesociety Wrote:Me being an anarchist, I just can't see freedom in a parasytic economic system with thoughtless consumerism of the proletariat, and hoping that the people with all the wealth and power really actually care about us and not just making money.

You talk about freedom, but is too much freedom a good thing? Your freedom ends where my nose begins. And why is consumerism such a bad thing? Sure we shouldn't rely on products to make is happy, but the fact is that they do provide entertainment and happiness. I also don't see why people should all of a sudden care about other people just because they have a bigger share of the pie. I bet you don't care about those with a lot of wealth.

savagesociety Wrote:Also, private ownership is something i definetley have a problem with. I think rent is theft.

How is rent theft? Theft is the act of forcefully taking something. Giving rent is a voluntary action. Ah... not having private ownership, let me just come round to your house and piss on your floor and sleep in your house, you don't own it after all.

savagesociety Wrote:And do you ignore all the fucked up things businesses and corporations have done to just about everything in the world for the sake of money?

What the fuck does this even mean? Just about everything in the world? Give examples or else the arguement is completely weak.

You know, I still don't think you grab the concept of free market capitalism and many of the things you state is to do with government and not business. I bet to you, anything capitalism is just BIG BUSINESS AND CORPORATION DESTROY CORRUPTION MONEY MONEY CONSUMERISM.

Please explain to me how an anarchistic society would operate, please explain to me what kind of better idea you have.

Hidden stuff:

[aaaaaaasd]

Is it just me or is savagesociety the new TrueAnarchist

[Elfy]

savagesociety is mad at society because she has a flip phone

[Efs]

Yeah. Capitalism = Freedom for rich bastards to exploit their industry.
Capitalism means I have a choice, a choice between 2 products that are either genetically modified, expensive as hell or some other shit.

Hidden stuff:

[Elfy]

But in a free market there would be more competition and choice.

[The Desert Fox]

Elfy, when did you make a heel face turn from an anarchist to a capitalist?