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The School Survival Forums are permanently retired. If you need help with quitting school, unsupportive parents or anything else, there is a list of resources on the Help Page.

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To everyone who joined these forums at some point, and got discouraged by the negativity and left after a while (or even got literally scared off): I'm sorry.

I wasn't good enough at encouraging people to be kinder, and removing people who refuse to be kind. Encouraging people is hard, and removing people creates conflict, and I hate conflict... so that's why I wasn't better at it.

I was a very, very sensitive teen. The atmosphere of this forum as it is now, if it had existed in 1996, would probably have upset me far more than it would have helped.

I can handle quite a lot of negativity and even abuse now, but that isn't the point. I want to help people. I want to help the people who need it the most, and I want to help people like the 1996 version of me.

I'm still figuring out the best way to do that, but as it is now, these forums are doing more harm than good, and I can't keep running them.

Thank you to the few people who have tried to understand my point of view so far. I really, really appreciate you guys. You are beautiful people.

Everyone else: If after everything I've said so far, you still don't understand my motivations, I think it's unlikely that you will. We're just too different. Maybe someday in the future it might make sense, but until then, there's no point in arguing about it. I don't have the time or the energy for arguing anymore. I will focus my time and energy on people who support me, and those who need help.

-SoulRiser

The forums are mostly read-only and are in a maintenance/testing phase, before being permanently archived. Please use this time to get the contact details of people you'd like to keep in touch with. My contact details are here.

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i feel forced again to put a subject here - its very painful to see that message...
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stevehein Offline
Pariah

Posts: 536
Joined: Dec 2007
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Given 327 thank(s) in 188 post(s)
Post: #1
i feel forced again to put a subject here - its very painful to see that message...

just saw "youth rights" and almost started to cry... it hurts that it doesn't say something more like "youth needs and legal rights"
not sure if sr has read this page
http://www.eqi.org/rights.htm

but what i came on here to write about was empathy...
Hidden stuff:
i was thinking it helps to know when you feel defensive. and why you feel defensive.

[Hidden]
ie to realize you are constantly being put on the defensive and exactly how that is being done to you.
violence. i was also thinking about violence. is it ok with sr for someone to hit someone in the face, to shoot someone? does she believe in the concept of "deserving" something - like "he deserved it" - rosenberg said something like "deserve is the most dangerous word " -- i was going to say "in the english language" - but there is merecer in spanish. so i started wondering, is there a culture which has another language which doesn't include that word? .... because they never needed it.... a very different culture - what rosenberg would call a non-domination culture.
as sr knows i dont like rosenberg. i still havent told her just why - maybe it is something like the reasons i dont like the elliot guy that radovan likes - simply put, they are both too american.
now i feel afraid of that teacher that was on here from the usa... i forget his or her name...
anyhow... yeah this place scares me sometimes. latey no one has attacked me - ie violence with words.
but jumping topics - i like the idea of splitting up the forums into sensitve and insensitive - tho that might be simplistic. because i was always sensitive but i wasnt always acting in what most pple would say is a sensitive way - i was sensitive to being hurt so i learned how to defend myself with words. let me say that another way - i was sensitive to being hurt *with words* so i learned how to defend myself *with words*
i was called insensitive. but i wasnt.
there are a lot of people here who appear "insensitive" but if we look at if from the perspective i just mentioned about myself, maybe that appearance would change. a new "paradigm" as steven covey liked to say - before he died.
i was reading his book the seven habits again.. i didnt know he said something very interesting about what i will call truth and appearance or quick fixes or short cuts vs reality and long term sustainable solutions. it was something like this.
he said something like there are certain core truths - i will say for example, that someone with a lot of friends (and i mean real friends) is more likely to survive (or be "successful" -- he probably used the word successful) -- anyhow, so now what we have is these "instant friends" i will call them. like facebook friends. its really impossible to have 2 or 3 thousand friends. i mean what iwould call real friends. maybe one day there will be a more sophisticate facebook that has groups of people. like, 3 levels of friends
- real friends - the ones who u can get a hold of almost instantly and say im feeling suicidal or i need help right now - and they will a) care enough to make u a priority and b) know u well enough to know what kind of help u need and give u what u need, not what they need or they believe u need or what society has told them u need.
- fb friends. ie pple who just added u
- business contacts / online contacts for games, hobbies etc. ie things u have something in common with. but not *emotional* connections. ie u wont cry if they died, got killed, killed themselve.
does this make sense so far? id really like just yes or no. and if it is no. then don't tell me why because i dont want to know unless u are sr. or cheeselover who i dont think is reading this. i feel kind of bad saying that but i dont feel able to read a lot of replies or long replies or any one's replies who i dont highly respect on here. and im sorry to say it but there is almost no one i highly respect on here. i respect xc but i feel overwhelmed by his posts and i dont feel understood enough or empathized with enough. id like to have xc as my student but id be a controlling teacher and he wouldnt be able to live with that im pretty sure. i have a huge need to feel in control. but that obviously causes problems when i am trying to control someone who has a big need to feel not controlled, free etc. like the conflict i had with angela. i told her directly i was feeling a need to feel in control and asked if she could handle that. im not sure what she said but within a few minutes of me trying to control her i exploded. i have an explosive personality lets say - which is great if u are really under attack by animals or pple physically attacking u - but not so great if it is triggered by something a sensitive, wounded, damaged mentally unstable, traumatized person does. so anyhow so angela couldnt handle me trying to control her even for a few minutes till my need was filled enough so i could listen to her. she got defensive and then she started to criticize me. so i said im gonna leave the chat now. so i did. and things have just gone straight downhill now for everyone it seems - except maybe for her. who seems to be ...i want to say "using" p to fill a lot of her unmet emotional needs.
so anyhow, i have so much i want to say - so many things i want to do. that is one reason i dont have or feel tolerant of a lot of words from pple who i dont highly respect. a guy in australia told me once "
"i have a lot of time for ___(so and so)

"
feeling very frustrated now - cant see the keys. its dark in my self made cave. of polar. i miss p. she knows about my cave - the tents or houses i used to make and still do over our beds - to keep our natural body heat in and the cold out. it works suprisingly well. i hardly use a heater at all even though it is freezing cold outside.

anyhow, again i feel bad saying i dont have a lot of time for reading pples replies. but i often think of obama for example. how much extra or free time does he have? and im afrid sr will feel some pain by this -- pain in the form of a judgmental thought which says something quietly or not so quietly to her like
"arrogant" -- it seems sr really feels pain from pple who have felt a need to feel superior to her - which i can understand - but i really truly believe i have more value to humanity than obama or probably any president of any country - or what we call "presidents" and "countries" at this point in human evolution...
so if u dont value me, a lot, please dont even reply cuz i will feel pain and attacked and i will probably react with the defense of fuck you. go fuck yourself - etc. which isnt too emotionally intelligent. but its a learned response to threat let's say
i can attack pple verbally but im kind of "outgrowing" that or "unlearning it"
we were all taught so much destructive shit...
i feel encouraged that sr said some pple are doing personal growth. which makes me think we need a section here called Unlearning - or Undomesticating.
i think sr and i are kind of on the same wavelength so to speak. - like we want something different. something better. something more healthy, sustainable than what we have ever seen anywhere in the world. and we are open to all ideas to try to make that happen and we value learing and teaching or sharing with those who want to learn from us.
ive been working a bit on what i call a framework for an emotionally alternative intelligent society. http://www.eqi.org/eias.htm i think is the link
it would have a very different language - it would not have for example, anger, hate, rules, punishment, deserve
if u are motivated u can read my site about all of those words. or pay me one dollar. haha. yeah im partly motivated by money. so i will write about each one or look up the link for u for 1 dollar per word.
or maybe 1 euro cuz the dollar is a fake currency.
im curious here who knows what the words reserve currency means. -- i was thinking about that tonight again after watching one of the zeitgesit dramamentaries - ie overly dramatized documentary -
not many pple here talk about the really big stuff happening. like how it seems the usa is preparing for civil war, martial law etc. and what effect it will have on the world if the dollar crashes one day.
one of the smartest guys who has lived recently is buckminster fuller in my opinion, and that of a lot of others -- just recently i learned that a long time ago he was saying the debt that the usa has is unsustainable.
pple dont get it. im not even sure i can imagine what will happen if it all starts to fall apart. but i can say im glad i live in uruguay - cuz my neighbors dont have a lot of guns. and they dont feel very aggressive and competitive. or insecure. they are really simple pple but basically pretty safe pple. i feel sad p is back in england where the pple are so...hostile, defensive, judgmental, unsafe etc. well i dont know where she is actually - i assume she is still in portugal. it hurts i havent heard from her. last night i was in so much pain. i wrote a lot that i started to put on my index page - my home page.. but i didnt send it... i fell asleep. woke up about six am
now it is about 8
light out. i survived another night - but it was bad last night - i was feeling so desperate - so suicidal.
tfr thanks for reading
btw i like the idea of pple saying this is just venting. although thats kind of minimizing the importance of it. or saying i dont want advice. cuz i for example absolutely positively dont want any fucking advice. none. i want to feel understood. i dont expect to feel very understood by anyone except sr. and priscilla if she eventually reads this. but maybe some will understand.
btw leo buscaglia said the loving person hates waste. i will change that to the loving person feels pain from any waste. - thats me. i feel pain when i see waste so im desiging a more efficient way of communicating feelings. like zero to ten. like i was just thinking now that id like to just hear from pple one number - unless they are someone like sr - or fuck i will just say unless they are sr cuz no one here that i can think of is like sr - and im afraid she might think im saying that to suck up to her but im serious - dead serious. she's unique at least in my book, as the saying goes...
anyhow so if u want to reply but ur afraid to write a lot cuz of what i have said, then id like if u just send me one number. and that number would represent how understanding u feel of all of this, from zero to ten.
if it is less than 6 please dont even leave any numbers cuz i will feel discourged. id rather not know who u are if u dont feel understanding 6 or above. i will feel discouraged and i need to feel encouraged. i know what the fuck i need. and it is really painful to the point of energizing me to hurt someone almost when pple try to tell me what i need. thought: go fuck yourselves. u dont know me. so leave me the fuck alone and keep ur fucking mouth shut. --- so that is how i use words to defend myself -- i said something very similar once - actually i screamed it at the top of my lungs, as i often do lately - ever since living with priscilla haha - and i laugh but i wonder if it is true.. -- anyhow i screamed something like keep your fucking mouth shut to a guy from australia. p probably remembers him. he was a pain in my ass from about the moment he arrived at my hostel *my* hostel. it was even called steves place.... cuz i need something that is mine that i can control.. though i dont really like to control pple not as much as i like to help them. but i like to be in control of my environment so i can change it and tweak it to meet my needs - simple enough...
like my tent - i like it a lot. its working so well - i keep improving the design. i dont have anyone to share it with.. i miss being able to share things and show things to p.
im probably gonna buy that lot behind estella's house btw. at least it would be a start - for a place where p and angela can live if they want to come here. p and i cant live together but i want to be closer to her and i sure the fuck am not moving to england... *sigh hug to p


07-06-2014 09:27 PM
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xcriteria Offline
Fanatic

Posts: 3,090
Joined: Oct 2005
Thanks: 814
Given 930 thank(s) in 612 post(s)
Post: #2
i feel forced again to put a subject here - its very painful to see that message...

(07-06-2014 09:27 PM)stevehein Wrote:  anyhow... yeah this place scares me sometimes. latey no one has attacked me - ie violence with words.

but jumping topics - i like the idea of splitting up the forums into sensitve and insensitive - tho that might be simplistic. because i was always sensitive but i wasnt always acting in what most pple would say is a sensitive way - i was sensitive to being hurt so i learned how to defend myself with words. let me say that another way - i was sensitive to being hurt *with words* so i learned how to defend myself *with words*

i was called insensitive. but i wasnt.

there are a lot of people here who appear "insensitive" but if we look at if from the perspective i just mentioned about myself, maybe that appearance would change. a new "paradigm" as steven covey liked to say - before he died.

Yeah, I think sensitive vs. insensitive may be too simplistic. A.k.a., "hugbox vs. edgy," the ongoing "war" that's broken out in the world of School Survival. I think it makes sense to have some subforums with different points of focus, and I think some renaming and more active facilitation would help a lot.

(In other words, providing prompts for discussion, giving feedback and asking questions, figuring out people's goals and where they're coming from... not just "moderation" in the "forum police" form of splitting/deleting/banning.)

(07-06-2014 09:27 PM)stevehein Wrote:  i was reading his book the seven habits again.. i didnt know he said something very interesting about what i will call truth and appearance or quick fixes or short cuts vs reality and long term sustainable solutions. it was something like this.

That's a good way tot think about things... quick fixes vs. long-term, sustainable solutions. Definitely relevant to things like managing and participating in a learning community that replaces factory-model schooling!

And that's what I'd like to see this site (and the related network of sites) become... a learning community.

(07-06-2014 09:27 PM)stevehein Wrote:  he said something like there are certain core truths - i will say for example, that someone with a lot of friends (and i mean real friends) is more likely to survive (or be "successful" -- he probably used the word successful) -- anyhow, so now what we have is these "instant friends" i will call them. like facebook friends. its really impossible to have 2 or 3 thousand friends. i mean what iwould call real friends. maybe one day there will be a more sophisticate facebook that has groups of people. like, 3 levels of friends
- real friends - the ones who u can get a hold of almost instantly and say im feeling suicidal or i need help right now - and they will a) care enough to make u a priority and b) know u well enough to know what kind of help u need and give u what u need, not what they need or they believe u need or what society has told them u need.
- fb friends. ie pple who just added u
- business contacts / online contacts for games, hobbies etc. ie things u have something in common with. but not *emotional* connections. ie u wont cry if they died, got killed, killed themselve.

This is how G+ works... it uses something called "circles" instead of "friends." You can add people to one or more circles, sort of how following works on Twitter. Then you can view posts from just one circle at a time, set separate notification settings, and so on. Each circle has a name.

Anyway, on a side note, I've met a lot of interesting people on G+. At least the conversations I've found on there are overall more substantive than a lot of what I've seen on FB... and definitely more substantive than a lot of what I see here. That's been part of my inspiration for wanting to bring a higher-quality form of conversation on the forums.

(07-06-2014 09:27 PM)stevehein Wrote:  does this make sense so far? id really like just yes or no. and if it is no. then don't tell me why because i dont want to know unless u are sr. or cheeselover who i dont think is reading this.

Yes, it does. But, I'd argue that learning the why of people's cognitive reactions is incredibly useful. Smile

It's kind of related to empathy in many ways. If one goal is to promote empathy, sensitivity, and understanding on the forums, modeling it is one way to start.

(07-06-2014 09:27 PM)stevehein Wrote:  i feel kind of bad saying that but i dont feel able to read a lot of replies or long replies or any one's replies who i dont highly respect on here. and im sorry to say it but there is almost no one i highly respect on here. i respect xc but i feel overwhelmed by his posts and i dont feel understood enough or empathized with enough.

I think a lot of people feel overwhelmed by my posts... which is something I'm trying to figure out how to address.

There's a lot for people to learn... but if it's not in a format they're motivated or capable of engaging in, then learning isn't possible. I'd say it's the same thing with your posts... and even the content you have on eqi. There's worthwhile stuff in it, like I think there is in what I write, but the average person will tune out due to the presentation.

I guess one solution is to try to sell people on learning the value of focusing and taking the time to read and understand longer texts. Another is to change the presentation into something that works better for them. And doing that requires feedback from readers/listeners, or else it's a matter of trial-and-error.

And that goes back the the value in hearing the "why" of people's reactions to a post. I want to learn more about that from people.

On that note: how would you feel more understood and empathized with?

(07-06-2014 09:27 PM)stevehein Wrote:  id like to have xc as my student but id be a controlling teacher and he wouldnt be able to live with that im pretty sure. i have a huge need to feel in control. but that obviously causes problems when i am trying to control someone who has a big need to feel not controlled, free etc. like the conflict i had with angela. i told her directly i was feeling a need to feel in control and asked if she could handle that. im not sure what she said but within a few minutes of me trying to control her i exploded. i have an explosive personality lets say - which is great if u are really under attack by animals or pple physically attacking u - but not so great if it is triggered by something a sensitive, wounded, damaged mentally unstable, traumatized person does.

I think most if not everyone here has a big need not to feel controlled. That's one reason they/we don't like factory-model schools. That's actually a whole topic to explore further.

But back to you, if you don't mind the question: where does your need to feel in control come from?

(07-06-2014 09:27 PM)stevehein Wrote:  so anyhow so angela couldnt handle me trying to control her even for a few minutes till my need was filled enough so i could listen to her. she got defensive and then she started to criticize me. so i said im gonna leave the chat now. so i did. and things have just gone straight downhill now for everyone it seems - except maybe for her. who seems to be ...i want to say "using" p to fill a lot of her unmet emotional needs.

Metacognition comes to mind as one solution there... for everyone. Learning to see what's happening. The book Crucial Conversations has a lot of useful coverage of how to "learn to look" and notice what's happening during interactions.

I think reflecting on interactions after the fact can do a lot to build up those skills.

(07-06-2014 09:27 PM)stevehein Wrote:  so anyhow, i have so much i want to say - so many things i want to do. that is one reason i dont have or feel tolerant of a lot of words from pple who i dont highly respect. a guy in australia told me once "
"i have a lot of time for ___(so and so)
"

Maybe one answer is in finding some balance between saying and doing, and listening. Beyond "balance," though, maybe the bigger question is how to use time and energy more effectively in interactions, so it's more of a "win-win-win" kind of thing.

Do you think that might be possible?

(07-06-2014 09:27 PM)stevehein Wrote:  anyhow, again i feel bad saying i dont have a lot of time for reading pples replies. but i often think of obama for example. how much extra or free time does he have? and im afrid sr will feel some pain by this -- pain in the form of a judgmental thought which says something quietly or not so quietly to her like
"arrogant" -- it seems sr really feels pain from pple who have felt a need to feel superior to her - which i can understand - but i really truly believe i have more value to humanity than obama or probably any president of any country - or what we call "presidents" and "countries" at this point in human evolution...

I'd say all of us have limited time for reading replies. The question then zooms out to one of priorities and time management. What's most important and worthwhile to focus attention on? For how long?

As for feeling superior, I have to wonder, why is a comparison needed? "Value to humanity" is pretty broad. I'd say different people contribute different things. That said, sometimes one approach or what someone does is measurably more useful in a given context.

The psychological risk of feeling superior is the other side of it, feeling totally devalued at other times. It might help, if you can, to change what you're anchoring your sense of self on. (Just an idea...)

(07-06-2014 09:27 PM)stevehein Wrote:  so if u dont value me, a lot, please dont even reply cuz i will feel pain and attacked and i will probably react with the defense of fuck you. go fuck yourself - etc. which isnt too emotionally intelligent. but its a learned response to threat let's say
i can attack pple verbally but im kind of "outgrowing" that or "unlearning it"
we were all taught so much destructive shit...

That parallels what I see of a lot on these forums. People lashing out at each other and so forth. But yeah, I think it can be outgrown or unlearned... without trying to force it out of people. I think the bigger question is why are those reactions really needed... and why do they happen in the first place.

Your explanation there is a big step in that direction.

(07-06-2014 09:27 PM)stevehein Wrote:  i feel encouraged that sr said some pple are doing personal growth. which makes me think we need a section here called Unlearning - or Undomesticating.

I feel encouraged by that as well. Justin Schwamm (one of the educators I mostly interact with on G+) writes a lot about "factory model thinking" and basically unlearning it...

The new categories thing is something to consider... we're going to do a bit of a reshuffling with those soon. (I'll write about that in another post.)

Regarding growth, are you familiar with the concept of fixed vs. growth mindset?

http://www.brainpickings.org/index.php/2014/01/29/carol-dweck-mindset/ (article)

Hidden stuff:

[Image: taschen_informationgraphics10.jpg]

I've found this to be a very useful concept, as have others I've talked to. When people are stuck with a "fixed mindset" they're unlikely to change or grow, because they don't see that as even possible for themselves or others. A growth mindset is oriented around the ability of people to grow and change, and in general seeing a world where effort is worth it, failure can be a way of learning, and roadblocks are something to be overcome, rather than a reason to give up.

(07-06-2014 09:27 PM)stevehein Wrote:  i think sr and i are kind of on the same wavelength so to speak. - like we want something different. something better. something more healthy, sustainable than what we have ever seen anywhere in the world. and we are open to all ideas to try to make that happen and we value learing and teaching or sharing with those who want to learn from us.

Yes, definitely. And I've found a lot of others who want the same kinds of things... and I think the numbers are growing in the world in general. That's after quite a long time of not seeing a whole lot of that, and not knowing what to do about it.

---

Metacognitive reflection:

So at this point, I feel like I need to take a break and maybe address the rest of your points separately. I'm partly wondering if you or others will read what I wrote. Maybe the way I broke up the block of text into shorter snippets will make it more readable for others?

For me, I found it easier to read through when I was mentally breaking it apart and thinking about how to respond to your various points. That requires a very different mode of interpreting and reacting than just "reading" something. But it makes even text that may seem like a "wall of text" into something more like a puzzle to unpack.

Thoughts?

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07-06-2014 11:25 PM
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Lime Offline
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Post: #3
i feel forced again to put a subject here - its very painful to see that message...

I must say, what Steve writes is really quite interesting. Take the time to read his articles; you'll learn (or, perhaps, realize/recognize) a thing or 2.
07-08-2014 02:29 PM
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 Thanks given by: SoulRiser
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