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Trotskyism
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Post: #1
Trotskyism

There's a pretty good recent thread on RL about this tendency:
http://www.revleft.com/vb/details-trotsk...index.html
Recommended post to read: #3
This was the most interesting part of the post to me:
Quote:Trotsky also had an analysis of what he called the combined and uneven development of world capitalism that viewed capitalism as one global mode of production with particular regional configurations, rather than as a series of "national" modes of production.
05-12-2014 12:45 PM
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Post: #2
Trotskyism

I think brainiac is a fan of Trotskyism, no?

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05-12-2014 01:53 PM
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Trotskyism

When it came to Stalin vs Trotsky, I find myself siding more with Trotsky.

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Post: #4
Trotskyism

Even I'd side more with Trotsky. He had a badass beard and killed fewer people.

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05-12-2014 02:13 PM
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Trotskyism

Staches are nice...but nothing beats a beard.

I personally consider him the rightful successor to Lenin too.

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RE: Trotskyism

(05-12-2014 02:12 PM)brainiac3397 Wrote:  When it came to Stalin vs Trotsky, I find myself siding more with Trotsky.

Have you read Trotsky's Fascism: What It Is and How To Fight It?
It might be of interest to you.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky...44-fas.htm
05-24-2014 06:45 PM
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Post: #7
Trotskyism

http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/...morals.htm

"Their Morals and Ours" is an interesting Trotskyist pamphlet, highly recommended read.

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06-21-2014 04:53 PM
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Post: #8
Trotskyism



Watch on YouTube
06-22-2014 02:20 AM
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RE: Trotskyism

(06-22-2014 02:20 AM)WalterScottDempsey Wrote:  

Watch on YouTube

stalinists be like "stalin was good guy i swear"

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06-22-2014 06:54 PM
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RE: Trotskyism

Since I mentioned Kautsky in another thread, here is what Trotsky wrote on his death:
Quote:The death of Karl Kautsky has passed unnoticed. To the young generation this name says comparatively little. Yet there was a time when Kautsky was in the true sense of the word the teacher who instructed the international proletarian vanguard. To be sure, his influence in the Anglo-Saxon countries, especially also in France, was less considerable; but that is explained by the feeble influence of Marxism in general in these countries. On the other hand, in Germany, in Austria, in Russia, and in the other Slavic countries, Kautsky became an indisputable Marxian authority. The attempts of the present historiography of the Comintern to present things as if Lenin, almost in his youth, had seen in Kautsky an opportunist and had declared war against him, are radically false. Almost up to the time of the world war, Lenin considered Kautsky as the genuine continuator of the cause of Marx and Engels.

This anomaly was explained by the character of the epoch, which was an era of capitalist ascension, of democracy, of adaptation of the proletariat. The revolutionary side of Marxism had changed into an indefinite, in any case, a distant perspective. The struggle for reforms and propaganda was on the order of the day. Kautsky occupied himself with commenting upon and justifying the policy of reform from the point of view of the revolutionary perspective. It was taken for granted that with the change of the objective conditions, Kautsky would know how to arm the party with other methods. That was not the case. The appearance of an epoch of great crises and of great shocks revealed the fundamentally reformist character of the Social Democracy and of its theoretician Kautsky. Lenin broke resolutely with Kautsky at the beginning of the war. After the October Revolution he published a merciless book on the “renegade Kautsky.” As for Marxism, Kautsky, from the beginning of the war, behaved incontestably like a renegade. But as for himself, he was only half a renegade from his past, so to speak: when the problems of the class struggle were posed in all their acuteness, Kautsky found himself constrained to draw the final conclusions of his organic opportunism. Kautsky undoubtedly leaves behind numerous works of value in the field of Marxian theory, which he applied successfully in the most variegated domains. His analytical thought was distinguished by an exceptional force. But it was not the universal creative intelligence of Marx, of Engels, or of Lenin: all his life Kautsky was, at bottom, a talented commentator. His character, like his thought, lacked audacity and sweep, without which revolutionary politics is impossible. From the very first cannon-shot, he occupied an ill-defined pacifist position; then he became one of the leaders of the Independent Social Democratic Party which tried to create a Two-and-one-Half International; then, with the debris of the Independent Party he returned under the wing of the Social Democracy. Kautsky understood nothing of the October Revolution, showed the petty-bourgeois savant’s fright before it, and devoted to it not a few works imbued with a spirit of fierce hostility. His works in the last quarter of a century are characterized by a complete theoretical and political decline.

The foundering of the German and Austrian Social Democracy was also the foundering of all the reformist conceptions of Kautsky. To be sure, he still continued to affirm to the last that he had hopes of a “better future,” of a “regeneration” of democracy, etc.; this passive optimism was only the inertia of a laborious and in its way honest long life, but it contained no independent perspective. We remember Kautsky as our former teacher to whom we once owed a good deal, but who separated himself from the proletarian revolution and from whom, consequently, we had to separate ourselves.
06-22-2014 08:19 PM
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Trotskyism

James P. Cannon is a rather unique figure in the Trotskyist moment since he seemed to be as consistently orthodox throughout it, in contrast with Max Shachtman, James Burnham, Raya Dunayevskaya, CLR James, and so on, who have all deviated theoretically from Trotskyism or have even jettisoned Marxism entirely (We saw that especially from Burnham and other similar neocons (most prominently from some of the partially ex-leftist New York Intellectuals) who mostly fell victim to a combination of factors considering the events and the outcome of World War 2 and a then-contemporary developing patriotism (akin to social-patriotism during WWI, if that's how you want to view it) due to the "reasoning" of the United States' participation in the war being the biggest factor to the prevention of fascism, thus giving birth to the thought of a majority of the proponents of neoconservatism (That isn't completely it (and I am sort of rushing this post) which is why it sounds incomplete in explaining the spontaneous shift in their politics since I am trying to recall the rest of what I have read about this a long while ago, and this especially isn't it for Burnham))

Raya Dunayevskaya and CLR James, as I have listed, didn't become neocons or even right wing, but I think that CLR James' politics degenerated into boring social democracy in late life, and Dunayevskaya remained, I believe, a consistent "Marxist-Humanist" after her break from Trotskyism.
Shachtman's mid-to-later politics were boring.

I'll expand on most of this later.
07-18-2014 08:10 PM
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Post: #12
Trotskyism

Everyone would side with Trotsky, unless they happen to like mass murderers that outclassed Hitler (and by some accounts, nine times over at that). Stalin's regime was utterly deplorable...but, hey, at least in the long run it made the Soviet Union easier to defeat.

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07-19-2014 04:04 AM
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Post: #13
Trotskyism

You could also side with Lenin ya know.

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07-19-2014 06:33 AM
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RE: Trotskyism

(07-19-2014 04:04 AM)DoA Wrote:  Everyone would side with Trotsky, unless they happen to like mass murderers that outclassed Hitler (and by some accounts, nine times over at that). Stalin's regime was utterly deplorable...but, hey, at least in the long run it made the Soviet Union easier to defeat.

yes

Go ahead and cite inflated "death counts" by Black Book of Communism-esque sources, never mind that it's largely exaggerated disease (People who get cholera or typhoid in yet developing areas are personally killed by Stalin, just for him to be sure they die, right?) and natural famine counts (which interestingly would just be thought of "oh, just an agricultural/climate-related accident" in non state-capitalist (which is capitalism anyway) nations, especially), and never mind the deaths we can attribute to capitalism from the past and the present.

Not that I like Stalin or Mao but at this point this "Stalin/Mao/Che killed everyone on the planet 500 times over, even MORE than HITLER" BS is pretty much a virus of dishonesty for people who still think there is a cold war to be "won" by spamming that.

The capitalist efforts to repress and isolate the revolution are entirely to blame for the existence of Stalinism.

"but, hey, at least in the long run it made the Soviet Union easier to defeat."
In my previous post, I forgot to mention that this (in the historical context of the postwar situation) was pretty much the reasoning of ex-leftist anti-Stalinist neocons, who saw America as a savior of Europe from Stalinism and Nazism, and therefore had the ideas that America must be powerful, and other stupid things.
07-19-2014 07:52 AM
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Post: #15
Trotskyism

Trotsky was a fat pussy.

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07-19-2014 08:09 AM
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RE: Trotskyism

(07-19-2014 06:33 AM)brainiac3397 Wrote:  You could also side with Lenin ya know.

Yeah but he died. Besides, both Stalin and Trotsky claimed to be Lenin's successor in terms of leadership and theory.

Stalin merely happened to shit on it and shatter some of the most important points of Marxism.

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07-21-2014 12:29 AM
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RE: Trotskyism

(07-19-2014 06:33 AM)brainiac3397 Wrote:  You could also side with Lenin ya know.

What's with the change of attitude over Trotsky?

(07-21-2014 12:29 AM)SwiftEscudo Wrote:  
(07-19-2014 06:33 AM)brainiac3397 Wrote:  You could also side with Lenin ya know.

Yeah but he died. Besides, both Stalin and Trotsky claimed to be Lenin's successor in terms of leadership and theory.

Stalin merely happened to shit on it and shatter some of the most important points of Marxism.

Amadeo Bordiga, Onorato Damen, and the other Italian left communists can be pretty interesting to learn about, I think they considered themselves to be Leninists.
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RE: Trotskyism

I didnt change opinion on Trotsky wut.

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RE: Trotskyism

(07-21-2014 08:43 PM)brainiac3397 Wrote:  I didnt change opinion on Trotsky wut.

You responded to DoA's "Everyone would side with Trotsky" with "You could also side with Lenin" and I figured that you were distancing yourself from Trotsky.
07-22-2014 11:08 AM
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Trotskyism

I construed his first response as saying Trotsky > Stalin, and his latter response as Lenin > Trotsky...or something to that effect.

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07-22-2014 11:18 AM
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Trotskyism

In my mind, Trotsky is actually one branch of Lenin(who himself is a branch of Marx).

Since he mentioned that everyone would side with Trotsky so not to side with Stalin, I thought why only these two instead of Papa Lenin? One could side with Lenin without siding with Trotsky simply for the sake of not siding with genocidal Stalin. Course there's also Tito, Mao and Castro we can consider. I'd prefer Tito from the 3, followed by....hrm I don't know whether to go with Mao or Castro. Forget it, I'll consider Che Guevara as second to Tito. Then Tito would be second to Trotsky.

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07-22-2014 12:51 PM
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RE: Trotskyism

Lenin was kind of a dick as well imo

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Trotskyism

Mensheviks ftw

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RE: Trotskyism

(07-22-2014 03:25 PM)brainiac3397 Wrote:  Mensheviks ftw

The Socialist Revolutionary Party never gets any forum cred.
07-22-2014 04:26 PM
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Trotskyism

Eh...

Come to think of it, I'm not entirely on the agrarian side.

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RE: Trotskyism

(07-22-2014 04:52 PM)brainiac3397 Wrote:  Eh...

Come to think of it, I'm not entirely on the agrarian side.

Fortunately.
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Trotskyism

Wasn't Marx more towards urban or at least focused on that?

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RE: Trotskyism

(07-22-2014 03:25 PM)brainiac3397 Wrote:  Mensheviks ftw

mensheviks were kinda weird and contradictory on a lot of stuff

social revolutionaries had a right-wing thing going on in some of their shit, along with lots of peasant support

looking at the context, it's understandable and reasonable that lenin didn't let those guys decide shit

also

>communist
>support bourgeois revolution

i shiggy dig


I'd list the revolutionaries like this (With the top of good being the best, and bottom of shit being the worst):

Good people -

Marx & Engels
Lenin
Trotsky
Luxemburg

Shit people -

Castro
Tito
Hoxha
Mao
Stalin

Mao and Stalin being the very worst because absolutely shit. Both of them had shitty, self-destructive economic ideas. They also both shat on the core concepts of Marxism and had very reactionary ideas. I mean, they don't say that the Soviet Union ended up being just like Tsarist Russia for nothing.

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Trotskyism

But I like Tito...

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Post: #30
RE: Trotskyism

Tito was the shit. Kept the Bosnians safe from Serbs and Serbs safe from Croats.

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