Opinions on Communism.

[Potato]

(03-08-2014 09:05 AM)mundelow Wrote:  

(03-08-2014 08:56 AM)Potato Wrote:  

(03-08-2014 08:29 AM)mundelow Wrote:  

(03-08-2014 08:26 AM)Potato Wrote:  standard of living is the only measure that matters

What do you mean by standard of living?

"Standard of living refers to the level of wealth, comfort, material goods and necessities available to a certain socioeconomic class in a certain geographic area."-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_of_living

i think average standard of living is what we should care about as our ultimate goal, and i think a mix of capitalism and socialism is the best structure for maximizing average standard of living

That basically seems like the ability to be middle class. What about the fact that that lifestyle isn't sustainable? Also, nothing about health? What about things like rape? Social oppression? Why is having a class system even good? Where would america rank on that scale? Questions, questions, questions..

it's more like the ability to be "first world." and i said average standard of living so i'm not being class-specific. and health-care IS an important element of standard of living, and law-enforcement should also be an element of standard of living, by standard of living i mean generally how comfortable people's lives are.

what do you mean by social oppression?

and it is true that not the entire world can sustainably live as comfortably as we do in the first world, and that's a problem of technology. but it still wouldn't make sense for a person living in a poor country to say let's stay poor so the rich people can stay rich while maintaining the environment. it makes sense for everyone to strive to make their own lives as comfortable as possible and to support the right economic structures as a part of that effort. (and i think people who think that communism will make their lives more comfortable are wrong)

and technology is progressing, telecommuting, electric cars, solar power, are going to keep growing as developing countries become richer.

[mundelow]

(03-08-2014 09:20 AM)Potato Wrote:  

(03-08-2014 09:05 AM)mundelow Wrote:  

(03-08-2014 08:56 AM)Potato Wrote:  

(03-08-2014 08:29 AM)mundelow Wrote:  

(03-08-2014 08:26 AM)Potato Wrote:  standard of living is the only measure that matters

What do you mean by standard of living?

"Standard of living refers to the level of wealth, comfort, material goods and necessities available to a certain socioeconomic class in a certain geographic area."-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_of_living

i think average standard of living is what we should care about as our ultimate goal, and i think a mix of capitalism and socialism is the best structure for maximizing average standard of living

That basically seems like the ability to be middle class. What about the fact that that lifestyle isn't sustainable? Also, nothing about health? What about things like rape? Social oppression? Why is having a class system even good? Where would america rank on that scale? Questions, questions, questions..

it's more like the ability to be "first world." and i said average standard of living so i'm not being class-specific. and health-care IS an important element of standard of living, and law-enforcement should also be an element of standard of living, by standard of living i mean generally how comfortable people's lives are.

what do you mean by social oppression?

and it is true that not the entire world can sustainably live as comfortably as we do in the first world, and that's a problem of technology. but it still wouldn't make sense for a person living in a poor country to say let's stay poor so the rich people can stay rich while maintaining the environment. it makes sense for everyone to strive to make their own lives as comfortable as possible and to support the right economic structures as a part of that effort. (and i think people who think that communism will make their lives more comfortable are wrong)

and technology is progressing, telecommuting, electric cars, solar power, are going to keep growing as developing countries become richer.

Unfortunately, the system with live under needs massive amounts of violence in order to work. If you look at how it actually operates, you see that from the beginning it has been run for the personal profit of small, powerful groups. Groups who have used reckless violence and propaganda to get the "milestones" accomplished.
It is also killing our ecosystem and fucking things up for tons of people across the planet. If it continues in it's current state our species might not survive. Small tweaks like solar panels and hybrid cars don't get rid of the actual industrial infrastructure, which is what is putting our survival in jeopardy.
On the standards of living front, this lifestyle that you consider standard is actually only experienced by a minority of people in our world. In order for the wealthy minority to be wealthy, the poor majority must be poor. The poor do most of the work, the rich get most of the benefits.

But we could talk basic rich vs poor stuff all day. Lets not forget the social problems that come with all of this: the oppression of women, the oppression of LGBT people, of young folks, of non-whites, etc.
Most parts of these things were created intentionally, for economic reasons. Sexism and racism in particular. Though we know from going to school that young people also are a key part in keeping the system running.
So when you look at the cultures that don't have these nasty kinds of oppression, you learn that it's because their economic systems are different.
My nation (the Chumash Indians), didn't oppress women, LGBT people, or young people. We didn't need to; we lived in a balance with our thriving ecosystem, we were much healthier than most people living in the first world, we didn't have slavery or the state. We were getting along fine, and would be to this day if we hadn't been invaded and overrun by white colonists. The same colonists who set up the system we live under, today using slavery, murder, theft and religious domination.
So yeah. In summary, I don't think your standards of living make good sense and I think we can aim much higher.

[Potato]

Quote:Small tweaks like solar panels and hybrid cars don't get rid of the actual industrial infrastructure, which is what is putting our survival in jeopardy.
On the standards of living front, this lifestyle that you consider standard is actually only experienced by a minority of people in our world. In order for the wealthy minority to be wealthy, the poor majority must be poor. The poor do most of the work, the rich get most of the benefits.

what do you mean by "industrial infrastructure"? renewable sources of energy will inevitably completely replace fossil fuels, and when that happens there will be no hard barrier against everyone living the first world life. eventually, nobody would have to work to survive because of automation, robots will drive all the cars and trucks and drones, factories will be maintained by robots who'll maintain and repair each other. there's nothing to stop that if we keep growing renewable energy. rich people may be rich in money but they can only consume so much.

Quote:Most parts of these things were created intentionally, for economic reasons. Sexism and racism in particular. Though we know from going to school that young people also are a key part in keeping the system running.

how does sexism (keeping half the population unemployed) benefit anyone economically?

[rockstarjim22]

My reaction to all the replies to this thread

[KFC Nyan Cat]

I believe that Communism should be a party in the U.S., but they shouldn't outright do away with Capitalism.

[brainiac3397]

There is a communist party in the US.

Contrary to public belief, the US actually is a multiparty nation.

It's just that the two current parties have made it extremely difficult to actually form a strong nationally supported party of effective influence. The only two "third parties" with enough influence to be known and actually capable of running with some results for presidency are the Green party and Libertarian party.

Otherwise most parties outside Jackass and Elephant are on the state level at best.

[Trar]

(03-08-2014 03:42 PM)Potato Wrote:  

Quote:Most parts of these things were created intentionally, for economic reasons. Sexism and racism in particular. Though we know from going to school that young people also are a key part in keeping the system running.

how does sexism (keeping half the population unemployed) benefit anyone economically?

It's more due to sexism (and oppression) for the sake of sexism (and oppression), I think. Mostly ignorance and xenopobia, with a pinch of irrational, possibly subconscious hatred. Misogyny is still rooted deep for some people.


As for communism? It's flawed, pretty much because:

A. people want to own stuff; there's nothing inherently wrong with rich people being rich as long as it's not at the expense of society, which is how it's playing out now with the ultrarich

B. human nature will get in the way, because a communist society a Marx wrote it is asking too much of people I think.

That said, capitalism needs a certain amount of regulation to benefit humanity as a whole. Which would most likely be more socialist in nature, so...well, it is in my signature!