School is creepy.

[Desu]

The government mandates that you must send your child to a designated government facility from child to young adult, where they will be required to sit down, shut up, and listen to government tailored knowledge, eat government tailored food, (possibly) wear government tailored clothing, and follow a huge list of rules.

If your child attempts to leave this facility during operational hours, the police will be notified and the child will be picked up and forced back into the facility where they will receive punishment.

If the parent wishes to spend more time with their child, they could possibly be taken to court for excessive truancy. In some places, it is illegal to homeschool your child. The government literally fucking tells parents they're not allowed to be with their children.

How the fuck does anyone, anywhere, find this okay? How the fuck are parents okay with this?

I always found this utterly mind-boggling. Like... holy shit.

People argue a lot about the pros and cons of school. But those are just minor details, at the end of the day... holy fuck. The government separates children from their parents and places them in a semi-comfortable prison (a building they are not allowed to leave and many basic rights afforded to citizens are revoked), and it's illegal if the child doesn't spend enough time in this building. <<< HOW THE FUCK DOES ANYONE AGREE WITH THIS?

[Subb]

Easy. They've been raised to. It's an integeral part of society, which many things are connected to. It's the law of the land.

[brainiac3397]

Did you know that current military training is intended to make troops less hesitant in killing their fellow man by making the act of shooting another human being a mechanical response(via conditioning during training)? Yep. Humans are actually resistant to killing each other. When training with bullseye targets or drills, soldiers often never shot to kill another human being(when not imminently necessary). However, when trained with human shaped targets, their body instinctly remembers there training and shoots to kill even if the mind did not intend it.

Makes you wonder what other types of conditioning the government is up to...

[xcriteria]

If parents want to homeschool/unschool, they can (in the US.)

Millions do.

It's also worth noting that there are a variety of kinds of schools. Saying "school is bad" overlooks that point.

So, school can be creepy, but, when it's done well, and it's a good fit for a learner, it's not necessarily creepy.

And, honestly, having a place to go away from one's parents is not necessarily a bad thing... it tends to be desirable as people grow up.

So, the question is, how can steps be taken to transition away from unpleasant, factory-model schools, to new forms of learning environments? How can parents and educators change their thinking from the traditional factory-model approach? How can teachers earn a living supporting new kinds of learning environments, instead of being classroom managers?

Lots of people are talking about all this, writing about it, and taking steps to bring about change. Some are actually living this new reality already. This New School Creation MOOC is one example, as have a number of other edu-MOOCs, talks, books,and articles. Anyone stuck in the factory-model paradigm, and not happy there, is better off learning about all this transformation, and taking part in it, rather than just conceptualizing school as a creepy, government-imposed legality. There's a lot more to it than that, and there are -- or can be -- options, like founding schools that work in different ways, unschooling, and simply learning outside of school.

Thoughts?

[xcriteria]

(01-12-2014 04:04 PM)Desu Wrote:  How the fuck does anyone, anywhere, find this okay? How the fuck are parents okay with this?

I always found this utterly mind-boggling. Like... holy shit.

Part of the answer here is, a good number of people like or tolerate school-as-usual. Not everyone's minds work the same. Many of them probably find it mind-boggling that anyone would call school a prison!

That's where perspective-taking is a useful skill to employ, as well as learning about how people's minds and preferences differ.

Another explanation is that many people think school, good or bad, is just a requirement for making it in the world. Others think the misery is is an actual step in preparing for adult life. So, there are a variety of explanations.

The question is then, beyond understanding those perspectives in more depth, what do do about it all.

[xcriteria]

One way to explore these questions is to look at the High School Survey of Student Engagement (HSSSE.)

Here's one relevant section:




(From pages 5-6 of http://ceep.indiana.edu/hssse/images/HSS...Report.pdf)

So, a key reason people go to school (and parents send their kids to school) is the perceived benefits in terms of a pathway to college, a career, and the like. So, even though many students cite boredom or lack of learning in school, they see an overall benefit for being there (and/or their parents do, and make them go.)

One critical factor there is people's perception (and, somewhat the reality) of the value of formal credentials when it comes to finding work. But, this "school-degree-job" narrative isn't working out for everyone, and there are a number of other paths in life as well. There are also, potentially, other ways to get the same credentials than suffering through (or spending all that time in) factory-model, spoon-fed classes.

This article by venture capitalist Michael Staton explains some of that: The Degree is Doomed.

There are also starting to be alternative paths to actual degrees, like this: College Degree, No Class Time Required

And, there are simply other paths to earning a living, though it certainly depends what career track you have in mind.

It's long past time to change things for people who can't stand school, that's for sure.

[Lime]

Quote:Did you know that current military training is intended to make troops less hesitant in killing their fellow man by making the act of shooting another human being a mechanical response(via conditioning during training)? Yep. Humans are actually resistant to killing each other. When training with bullseye targets or drills, soldiers often never shot to kill another human being(when not imminently necessary). However, when trained with human shaped targets, their body instinctly remembers there training and shoots to kill even if the mind did not intend it.

Makes you wonder what other types of conditioning the government is up to...

I'd rather teach them that the people they're shooting are human beings, and that they need to be morally comfortable with pulling the trigger because of an honest reason. ("This guy is doing bad, even if he's not inherently evil, this is the only way he can be prevented from doing more harm" rather than "He's not human" or "Well, I don't really know much but the government tells me they're bad".) Course, I'm not sure how well that would work out-certainly the military could have more trouble getting its soldiers to follow orders.

It's not really a problem for front-line soldiers though because most anybody will shoot to stop a threat. It's more important for snipers, who may need to take out seemingly innocuous targets who aren't targeting them or visibly harming anything.

As for school, I think we have some priorities:
-Preservation of human rights and freedom (not some trivial crap that doesn't help the average student at all)
-Useful learning
-Right to quit or stay home for any amount of time, provided they accept the consequences-namely, missing out on learning, and not anything else
-Reduced involuntary unpaid child labor mandatory schoolwork
-If you set up a system like this, then actually give teachers a decent salary

Funny thing is how pretty much everyone knows that people don't like school, and yet they think it's all good for them and they've got some mental issues if they hate it. I guess most of the student population is insane.

Those that do try to help almost always avoid, as Peter Gray describes it, the elephant in the room. The improvements from school reformers and such are a start, but frankly many students probably couldn't care less about them. They want to be treated as Homo Sapiens rather than a factory product, and more of a different kind of forced work is not helping.

[brainiac3397]

No specie is ever comfortable killing its own for any idea or belief. You cant really ever justify killing a fellow human no matter how wrong or evil they are. Hell, people have long-lasting psychological harm when they justifiable kill someone. Killing in self-defense is still hard to accept.

Its why training the body to kill is more effective. Training the mind is not as easy task. Sure, they have propaganda and all, but when looking into the face of your enemy and seeing another human being, killing doesnt come as easily.(at least to the new guys or psychologically healthy. Psychopaths and wary veterans might grow accustom to the fact they have to kill. And maybe the idealist would kill, though how they feel after is another quesfion)

I think the public has been pretty much "conditioned" to school. Like said, people might know whats wrong with the current system, yet still think its right because of how such a thought has been instilled into them.

[xcriteria]

(01-13-2014 06:13 AM)brainiac3397 Wrote:  I think the public has been pretty much "conditioned" to school. Like said, people might know whats wrong with the current system, yet still think its right because of how such a thought has been instilled into them.

I think it's also the case that people don't see immediate practical steps they could take to do things differently. (Many people don't want to homeschool, they want some professionals managing their kids' education, and most professionals have been trained in classroom management, and most teaching jobs are defined and paid for by factory model schools.)

It's a thorny, complex puzzle. And it's painfully complicated to make sense of even for those who spend a huge amount of time trying to make sense of it.

See The principles that school REALLY tries to teach for some thoughts on how to make sense of it.

[154bmag]

People just tolerate school, they assume it's for the best.

[Lime]

Quote:No specie is ever comfortable killing its own for any idea or belief.

Plenty are, I'd say.

Quote:You cant really ever justify killing a fellow human no matter how wrong or evil they are.

You all will excuse me for digging into philosophy, but I find unwavering pacifism naive. I don't think there is any unconditional rule that killing people is wrong no matter what; it just doesn't make sense morally or logically.

Quote:Killing in self-defense is still hard to accept.

Not at the moment, I wouldn't think. It seems to be more of a "Shoot first and ask questions later" sort of thing.

[Ky]

Nice try, derailers.

(01-13-2014 07:32 AM)xcriteria Wrote:  

(01-13-2014 06:13 AM)brainiac3397 Wrote:  I think the public has been pretty much "conditioned" to school. Like said, people might know whats wrong with the current system, yet still think its right because of how such a thought has been instilled into them.

I think it's also the case that people don't see immediate practical steps they could take to do things differently. (Many people don't want to homeschool, they want some professionals managing their kids' education, and most professionals have been trained in classroom management, and most teaching jobs are defined and paid for by factory model schools.)

It's a thorny, complex puzzle. And it's painfully complicated to make sense of even for those who spend a huge amount of time trying to make sense of it.

See The principles that school REALLY tries to teach for some thoughts on how to make sense of it.

Indeed. I wonder why society finds the path of least resistance to be the path that gives students and teachers a hell of a lot of resistance.

[brainiac3397]

(01-14-2014 09:01 AM)Lime Wrote:  

Quote:No specie is ever comfortable killing its own for any idea or belief.

Plenty are, I'd say.

Quote:You cant really ever justify killing a fellow human no matter how wrong or evil they are.

You all will excuse me for digging into philosophy, but I find unwavering pacifism naive. I don't think there is any unconditional rule that killing people is wrong no matter what; it just doesn't make sense morally or logically.

Quote:Killing in self-defense is still hard to accept.

Not at the moment, I wouldn't think. It seems to be more of a "Shoot first and ask questions later" sort of thing.

Im not saying humans cant kill humans.

Im saying humans cant kill humans and continue about their day like nothing ever happened. Wonder why police have to go through counseling after killing someone? You cant disregard the data collected. Psychologically we cant really handle killing another human, so we try to appease ourselves with excuses and reasons. If we could handle it, we wouldnt need to remind ourselves why we did what we did. We'd kill when necessary, and move on with our lives like nothing ever happened.

So Im not talking about pacifism, nor morals nor logic. Im talking about the psychology of killing another human being. Generally, only a psychopath without empathy will kill another human and actually feel comfortable doing it. Soldiers might seem comfortable doing it but that's mostly the training and displine. They still arent exactly keen on killing but consider it part of the job. Also might explain why some just snap about seeing too much killing and death.

And this ties in with schooling because people end up considering it another part of life, a part of the job/duty/responsibility. Who cares if it makes sense or not, whether it works or not, because I went through it, you're going through it, and they'll go through it. Obviously this is a case of applying present thought to the future.

[James Comey]

I probably should've replied to this thread, but hey, why not now?

I agree. When you're able to free yourself from the mind prison that is school, you start to look at it in a completely different way. You can't help but think of all the negative things that school does that completely overtakes the positives. Desu, not only is school creepy in the points you made, but school is creepier in other ways as well.

I find school to be seriously creepy because it teaches not only obey and survive, but herd mentality. Basically, follow the leader, because the leader is right. I think the fact that school is pretty much based on herd mentality, of following, the reason why bullying is such a problem. School pretty much makes it whenever one person is getting made fun of or acting weird, to universally pan that person and make their life a living hell. School doesn't teach you to experience what others have gone through, to learn that their life is as vivid as your's. That's another reason why I find school to be very creepy.

And another good reason I find school to be creepy is because it stresses, in spite of everything, school is the right way to learn, that school is for your own good, and that the benefits of school will outweigh the negatives. I find that to be very creepy, that I have to turn into a drone in order to please everyone.

That, alongside with Desu's original reasons, is why school is motherfucking creepy.

[gore goroth]

You guys barely have the tip of the icaberg as far has why public school is morally reprehensible and detrimental to humanity as a whole. The more you read into it's history, the worse it gets. Public school wasn't conceived to make us smarter, or more successful. Quite the opposite in fact. It's all bullshit. The founders of public school such as John Dewey, Horace Mann, etc... even outright admit this. This isn't even a conspiracy theory. It's basic history (which your textbooks conveniently left out). And yet a such tiny percent of the American population actually knows this very basic piece of history. Even worse, we all pretend like public education is some kind of Godsend and it helps us.

[craxyguy562]

If school is suppose to train you to like school and be a drone how come I'm not a drone who likes school? I've been in school for a while now.

[darkmind15]

schools are just another form of a corrupted system they want to keep us in line while trying to make it seem like we are free

[James Comey]

School is also creepy in the fact that it actively tries to manipulate your thoughts and actions.

[Depression101]

And the fact that it succeeds with most people is fucking horrifying.

[James Comey]

It's the greatest brainwashing program out there.

[Depression101]

MK Ultra looks like Dora the Explora in comparison with school.

Fun fact: Ken Kesey, author of 'One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest", voluntary partook in project MK Ultra and worked as a night janitor in a sanitarium. But, when reading the novel or watching the movie, you might as well swap the nut-house with school. The connection is somewhere there, but I'm too lazy to find it. I only had four hours sleep in the last day, and I'm planning on an all-nighter.

[James Comey]

School might as well be the fucking Matrix.

I really need to buy that Inglis book.

[The man]

(05-16-2017 07:11 AM)Depression101 Wrote:  MK Ultra looks like Dora the Explora in comparison with school.

Fun fact: Ken Kesey, author of 'One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest", voluntary partook in project MK Ultra and worked as a night janitor in a sanitarium. But, when reading the novel or watching the movie, you might as well swap the nut-house with school. The connection is somewhere there, but I'm too lazy to find it. I only had four hours sleep in the last day, and I'm planning on an all-nighter.

[James Comey]

DAMN IT DEPRESSION101 YOU NEED MORE COFFEE TO THINK

[Depression101]

Alexander Inglis? The guy who wrote the Principals of Secondary Education?

---

More coffee to drink? I just got myself these coffee pills. Basically coffee frozen into a candy thing that melts in your mouth. It has some Russian brand name. And it kicks like a fucking mule.

[James Comey]

Yeah that guy. I really want to get that book now.