Intolerance to Introversion

[Ky]

(12-24-2013 02:35 PM)stephen926 Wrote:  And to all those wierd ass people who have no/little amount of friends, that's not schools fault, it's yours, grow up.

(01-07-2014 12:27 PM)stephen926 Wrote:  Well then TRY to talk to others. Try. I mean, what's the worst that can happen. Do something. You guys are not even doing anything to make friends/talk to others.

We live in a society dedicated to intolerance and conformity. The world belongs to those who are the most loud, the least honest, and the closest to "normal". These people make life difficult for the silent majority the world quietly runs on. They don't understand how anyone could be different from them, and view "abnormal" people as inferior.

This is a grave mistake.

Introverts are viewed by many as an anomaly, when in reality they represent just over half of any given population. They draw their energy from a place others do not dare to tread - solitude - and quietly blend into the crowd. They are the crowd.

But their power does not come from crowds. Introverts represent the amazing power of the individual - a unit more powerful than a society or even a state. Good political ideologies make use of the individual to further either society or the state. The best ideologies promote the individual itself. The individual is beautiful and powerful, and also deemed a danger to our present society.

To punish introversion is to remove this danger. So our government, our communities, our schools, all of these groups make extroverts the heroes. Making small talk is encouraged, making friends is incentivized, and isolation generally comes forced, and not chosen, so that loneliness will look bad. By betraying the silent majority, society has made the power of the individual an unknown, and now uses our schools as factories to produce people who think the same.

The Matt Walsh Blog has the following to say:

Quote:A couple of days ago on my show I took another opportunity to extol the virtues of homeschooling. A public school, despite all of its lip service to diversity, is a place of ruthless conformity. Everyone must learn a certain way, think a certain way, and behave a certain way. These structures are enforced by any means necessary, which often means psychotropic drugs. Chemical conformity is not only a great name for a rock band, but the motto for our current education system. So, for that reason among many others, this public schooled guy is a big proponent of homeschooling.

The number one reason opponents of homeschooling give is that it doesn't allow children to "socialize" to the extent they would in public schools. If only they knew how good such a prospect is!

Quote:Kids who are homeschooled tend to be much better in “social situations” because they learned how to socialize from adults, rather than aping the personality traits of their peers. Public school doesn’t make kids “sociable,” and I think you could more accurately argue for the opposite. The whole concept that we need to send our children to government facilities to be “socialized” makes me shudder. Our children aren’t animals, and I wish we’d stop speaking about them as if they were. That said, I’m not looking to argue that point at the moment. Instead, I’d like to examine the idea that being “outgoing and extroverted” is some sort of universal ideal.

It isn’t. If a kid is introverted he doesn’t need to be broken like a dog. He doesn’t need to change his personality. He doesn’t even need to “come out of his shell.” He’s not hiding in a shell. He just doesn’t feel the need to chatter incessantly with everyone in the room. If that makes you uncomfortable — that’s your problem. There’s nothing objectively preferable or superior about extraversion.

Our society seems to think the opposite. There are a number of positive aspects to extraversion, but they are greatly exaggerated as to hinder the power of the introvert (and the individual) and move everyone towards a half-baked ideal.

Quote:We’ve decided that small talk is better than real talk, noise is better than silence, and we’d all rather be — or we’d rather our kids be– Tony Robbins than, say, Leonardo Da Vinci (a notable introvert). We live in a country where it’s perfectly acceptable to find the silent person in the back of the room and say, in as loud and shrill a voice as possible, “WHY ARE YOU SO QUIET?!”

For all the talk in the sociopolitical climate about diversity, there sure is a whole lot of discrimination.

[James Comey]

Amen. I'd post a longer reply but I'm not at a computer. I actually feel as if school has made me more introverted. Being bullied made me scared to socialize under the perceived threat of being rejected. I don't know. As an introvert, I feel I need some kind of formality in order to socialize. Barging in and trying to initiate conversations is not in my nature. Great post, DoA.

[Ky]

(01-09-2014 10:28 AM)Hansgrohe Wrote:  Amen. I'd post a longer reply but I'm not at a computer. I actually feel as if school has made me more introverted. Being bullied made me scared to socialize under the perceived threat of being rejected. I don't know. As an introvert, I feel I need some kind of formality in order to socialize. Barging in and trying to initiate conversations is not in my nature. Great post, DoA.

I feel the same way; that the school environment was hostile enough to make me more reserved as a defense.

And I hate small talk.

[James Comey]

Also, the discrimination against people with social/mental disorders is insane (no pun intended at all). Like I said, I have a teacher who had the nerve to use the term schizo, and have also heard of teachers verbally abusing those with social disorders and introverts as well.

[Chanku]

To be honest, I'm not sure what caused me to become more reserved, I think it has something to do with the bullying I went through in 8th grade, the fact that I'm weaker than most people my age, and I'm younger than people in my grade(as I started early), so I'm more easily pushed around at times. I've also become a perfectionist, in some ways, and if I mess up I will put myself down(why this is I don't know.), and also with the fact I had a small friend group in 6th grade(before being put into a different school), and they provided all the friends I needed. I was also always different than most people in my school, so I've always been 'weird'.

Although I'm not sure if I'm an Introvert or an Extrovert...

[James Comey]

Some people tend to be more in the middle. Sometimes you can be in the middle.

[Chanku]

I'm pretty sure I'm in the middle.

[Ky]

Such people are called ambiverts, yes. They are skilled in that they make good use of cognitive functions for both introversion and extraversion.

[Chanku]

Okay

[xcriteria]

(01-09-2014 10:44 AM)DoA Wrote:  Such people are called ambiverts, yes. They are skilled in that they make good use of cognitive functions for both introversion and extraversion.

Actually, according to Jungian/Myers-Briggs theory, everyone can learn to make good use of cognitive functions for both introversion and extraversion.

However, people do differ in which functions they prefer using in an introverted or extraverted manner, and tend to have a "natural lead function" that's one or the other.

Part of individuation, or development of the self, is about developing those various functions and learning to use them.

Forcing people to "just be social," however, is an extremely bad way to help people along on that process. Technically, introversion and extraversion, in the Jungian sense, aren't even about "being social," to make things even more confusing.

[xcriteria]

(01-09-2014 10:28 AM)Hansgrohe Wrote:  As an introvert, I feel I need some kind of formality in order to socialize. Barging in and trying to initiate conversations is not in my nature.

Same here. Either formality, or at times informality (if you're talking about text-based interaction.)

Initiating conversation in-person is harder for me, though it's a skill that can be developed to some degree.

The key is, as I said above, developing these skills in a way that lets people explore at their own pace, or face meaningful challenges, the complete opposite of a lot of scenarios people are thrown into.

[xcriteria]

It's also worth nothing that anxiety, or impacts of bullying and fear of other people being horrible... is different than introversion vs. extraversion.

(Even if those with a preference for introversion might be more impacted by them.)

[Chanku]

True....then again it only makes it harder to tell what I am exactly.

[xcriteria]

(01-09-2014 10:35 AM)Hansgrohe Wrote:  Also, the discrimination against people with social disorders is insane (no pun intended at all). Like I said, I have a teacher who had the nerve to use the term schizo, and have also heard of teachers verbally abusing those with social disorders and introverts as well.

One solution for all of this is for people to become more mindful of their own minds, and those of others... as well as how to recognize individual differences.

The same kinds of ignorance and prejudice that impact people with mental differences of various kinds, also impact people who come from different cultures, look different, have different beliefs, and all that.

If more people were open to understanding others, and themselves, it'd go a long way.

What might be done to change that, beyond changing the notion that grades are the most important thing when it comes to education?

[James Comey]

BTW Soul, please pin this thread.

[brainiac3397]

If I ever said "Im an introvert and like chopping people heads off", Its likely the former part of that statement will be of greater impact.

[James Comey]

(01-09-2014 12:12 PM)xcriteria Wrote:  

(01-09-2014 10:35 AM)Hansgrohe Wrote:  Also, the discrimination against people with social disorders is insane (no pun intended at all). Like I said, I have a teacher who had the nerve to use the term schizo, and have also heard of teachers verbally abusing those with social disorders and introverts as well.

One solution for all of this is for people to become more mindful of their own minds, and those of others... as well as how to recognize individual differences.

The same kinds of ignorance and prejudice that impact people with mental differences of various kinds, also impact people who come from different cultures, look different, have different beliefs, and all that.

If more people were open to understanding others, and themselves, it'd go a long way.

What might be done to change that, beyond changing the notion that grades are the most important thing when it comes to education?

Media messages play a big role, but also the perceptions of older people as well, and I do not mean that as an insult. I do feel that foreign cultures and countries are rather poorly taught. Even with greater awareness by many US history teachers, it feels as if much history we learn still has the "America kicks ass Fuck yeah!" vibe.

If we made learning cultures interesting, letting people freely learn them than rather force them to read about it, it would go a long way.

[James Comey]

(01-09-2014 12:07 PM)xcriteria Wrote:  

(01-09-2014 10:28 AM)Hansgrohe Wrote:  As an introvert, I feel I need some kind of formality in order to socialize. Barging in and trying to initiate conversations is not in my nature.

Same here. Either formality, or at times informality (if you're talking about text-based interaction.)

Initiating conversation in-person is harder for me, though it's a skill that can be developed to some degree.

The key is, as I said above, developing these skills in a way that lets people explore at their own pace, or face meaningful challenges, the complete opposite of a lot of scenarios people are thrown into.

Good to find I'm not alone. To describe it more accurately, I feel I need to know a person more somehow before I really start to talk with them. I feel it is rude (and probably many others) to just join a group of people who might even start to hate me for interrupting. That and the fact that I'm not very good at holding up conversations, or staying with people I don't know very well for long periods of time.

I'm not sure this would exactly apply outside of school though. I feel that in certain areas where socializing is not forced but at free will is better. I feel school has far too many groups and boundaries for me to be able to socialize effectively.

You said that anxiety is different from introversion, and indeed, that anxiety has definitely affected the way I socialize. I was bullied a lot in middle school, and to be honest though I've always been an introvert I was definitely more sociable in elementary school, but I feel once I entered middle school that all went away. The clique vibe grew heavily. I tried talking with other people but they were unbelievably rude to me. There's one person that sticks out in my mind that I still can't get over. That's where my anxiety started, and it continues today.

Yet I also feel in order to communicate, I feel someone needs to initiate communication with me instead of me doing that. In that way, I know that person has actual interest in talking with me, knowing what my life is like, etc, and we may find common ground. However, high school is not that kind of place. The boundaries and groups are too much.

[xcriteria]

(01-09-2014 02:04 PM)Hansgrohe Wrote:  Media messages play a big role, but also the perceptions of older people as well, and I do not mean that as an insult. I do feel that foreign cultures and countries are rather poorly taught. Even with greater awareness by many US history teachers, it feels as if much history we learn still has the "America kicks ass Fuck yeah!" vibe.

I think that pattern is pretty common globally. Countries typically want their students to see them as the center of the universe, and present limited views of other countries. Meanwhile, in an interconnected, globalized world, those distinctions matter less and less overall.

(01-09-2014 02:04 PM)Hansgrohe Wrote:  If we made learning cultures interesting, letting people freely learn them than rather force them to read about it, it would go a long way.

Just like everything.

But, that brings up the question of what are cultures, and how do they work... a.k.a., the focus of cultural anthropology. A.k.a., one of those subjects you can take a class in, in college, but that doesn't tend to be discussed before that.

My dad's focus is cultural anthropology. So, I grew up learning about cultures, and the concept of participant-observation, or going into an unfamiliar culture and participating and observing, to put it in simple terms. To me, that's what life in general was like... including American culture, as mixed-up of a culture as it is.

And, just looking at cultures obscures the reality that every population consists of a range of individuals, with different temperaments, roles in society as a whole, and all that.

So many people around the world are not at home in their native cultures. And, given that many of them are able to see options, learn about other people's stories, and all that, with the Internet, very different stories are possible than the one where people are born into a culture, adopt its ways, learn their place, and live their life according to those scripts.

And yet, culture is a very real thing to learn about. Not just in terms of nations, but in terms of organizations, groups, subcultures, and just the norms and rules communities develop and establish.

(Insert big map of connected ideas here.)

[xcriteria]

(01-09-2014 02:12 PM)Hansgrohe Wrote:  Good to find I'm not alone. To describe it more accurately, I feel I need to know a person more somehow before I really start to talk with them. I feel it is rude (and probably many others) to just join a group of people who might even start to hate me for interrupting. That and the fact that I'm not very good at holding up conversations, or staying with people I don't know very well for long periods of time.

Exactly. That's how it is for me.

If I don't know people, I tend to be very quiet, and mostly (or exclusively) observe.

I've developed the ability to be a lot more "extraverted" in online/text forms than I used to be, but in-person, with people I don't know, or I'm still getting to know, I tend to be reserved.

(01-09-2014 02:12 PM)Hansgrohe Wrote:  I'm not sure this would exactly apply outside of school though. I feel that in certain areas where socializing is not forced but at free will is better. I feel school has far too many groups and boundaries for me to be able to socialize effectively.

Ah, school, yeah... I never socialized in school unless I already knew people, got introduced, or rare times when someone started talking to me. College included.

(01-09-2014 02:12 PM)Hansgrohe Wrote:  You said that anxiety is different from introversion, and indeed, that anxiety has definitely affected the way I socialize. I was bullied a lot in middle school, and to be honest though I've always been an introvert I was definitely more sociable in elementary school, but I feel once I entered middle school that all went away. The clique vibe grew heavily. I tried talking with other people but they were unbelievably rude to me. There's one person that sticks out in my mind that I still can't get over. That's where my anxiety started, and it continues today.

Yeah, that's a good example of that difference. Fortunately, there are ways of dealing with anxiety, like cognitive-behavioral therapy. In short, that involves looking of the thinking that underlies your feelings, and examining whether it's accurate. For example, anxiety based on one or a relatively small number of people, ending up being connected to interaction in general.

(01-09-2014 02:12 PM)Hansgrohe Wrote:  Yet I also feel in order to communicate, I feel someone needs to initiate communication with me instead of me doing that. In that way, I know that person has actual interest in talking with me, knowing what my life is like, etc, and we may find common ground. However, high school is not that kind of place. The boundaries and groups are too much.

Same here. Fortunately, the Internet makes it possible for this process to be a bit less indirect than a typical in-person scenario. Someone can post a thread to a group, and introduce themselves, make a comment, or ask a question, after getting to know a bit about what the community is about by lurking (or just by the description.)

And yes, high school is the complete opposite of that. Boundaries, groups, and fixed roles, like teacher, admin, student... and then all the groups and interaction styles that tend to happen among students.

One more reason to completely revamp the way education, and the whole process of "socializing," is done.

[chained to desk]

I hate it when people tell introverts"Come out of your shell!".It's more of a bubble than a shell, I let people in once I know them well enough. Likewise, people looking at introverts might get a distorted view because they can't read their mind and tell they are actually fine with being an introvert. Instead they see a "lonely person who's obviously unhappy because what makes me happy(talking)MUST be what makes them happy".

[Ky]

It isn't their fault for assuming that. "Mother Culture" teaches us that solitude is painful loneliness, and that speaking is better than listening. Oh, how much further along we'd be if only we'd nipped that misconception in the bud as soon as it started...

[James Comey]

I think another misconception is that introverts are somehow "anti-social" when in reality that's false. There are many introverts who aren't anti-social, and actually may love socializing. They socialize in much different ways.

[James Comey]

Another thing about school that is quite anti-introvert is group work. There are a lot of assignments in which group participation is mandatory, you can't do it by yourself. Most of the time I hate group assignments unless it's with someone I know. I don't want to say all group assignments are bad, and in fact group work is sometimes good. I just hate being forced to work with other people on things I could have done myself, especially with people I'm unfamiliar with. It seems that more and more group assignments keep being assigned. I also think that forced group work has, in part, lead to the phenomenon of groupthink.

And schools can be unbelievably picky with this. No working by yourself, you must work with another student! Work by yourself and you'll fail. It's not my fault I'd rather do something on my own than work with a stranger. It seems schools misunderstand introverts, and it seems they're only getting worse and worse.

[Desu]

(01-10-2014 12:42 PM)Hansgrohe Wrote:  I think another misconception is that introverts are somehow "anti-social" when in reality that's false. There are many introverts who aren't anti-social, and actually may love socializing. They socialize in much different ways.

I really enjoy one-on-one conversation. People say I'm quiet, even shy. Not really.

I'm not loud. I don't have a huge "presence" at a party. I enter quietly, and leave quietly.

I don't like small talk/banter very much. It's fine if you do, but that's not me. If I'm going to talk, it better be important/interesting. Otherwise I enjoy just sitting there and chilling. Totally happy with that.

BTW, for some really fucking annoying reason, it seems like many extroverts are incapable of understanding that introverts want to be left alone. You're an obnoxious asshole if you try to make an introvert go out more, talk when they don't want to talk etc. Do I pressure you to be alone? Be quieter? No? Then why can't you do the same for me?

"Come on man, it'll be really fun! You're just lazy. What's wrong with you? Don't you wanna hang out with us? Once you're there, you'll have fun." Jesus Christ fuck off PLEASE. There have been multiple instances where I sucked it up and hung out with people when I didn't want to and yep... it was horrible, boring, and awkward. I would have been happier at home and enjoying some downtime.

[Ky]

I know that feel, Desu.

Extroverts tend not to understand because they won't understand. This is their world. We may be what keeps it moving, but they're the ones running it.

[Marzo]

I feel as though most students who struggle with school or feel disillusioned with school are usually introverts, although we should be weary of simplistic statements, there's a lot of gray area. To contrast, from my observations it seems as if extroverted people find our education system more likening.

Of course there are countless other factors, introversion and extroversion are not the only ones.

[Ky]

(01-14-2014 11:19 AM)Marzo Wrote:  I feel as though most students who struggle with school or feel disillusioned with school are usually introverts, although we should be weary of simplistic statements, there's a lot of gray area. To contrast, from my observations it seems as if extroverted people find our education system more likening.

Of course there are countless other factors, introversion and extroversion are not the only ones.

That's quite true. One of the groups our society (and by extension, the schools) cater to are the extroverts over the introverts. I wonder what other groups face discrimination of this sort.

[brainiac3397]

Put a pious priest in a brothel and he'll feel like an introvert at school.

[James Comey]

(01-14-2014 11:19 AM)Marzo Wrote:  I feel as though most students who struggle with school or feel disillusioned with school are usually introverts, although we should be weary of simplistic statements, there's a lot of gray area. To contrast, from my observations it seems as if extroverted people find our education system more likening.

Of course there are countless other factors, introversion and extroversion are not the only ones.

I challenge that viewpoint somewhat, since I think extroverts hate school as much as introverts. I think the driving reason for extroverts is that in school "they make friends", which helps mask the reality of the system.

Introverts tend to have a "pure" hatred of the system, alongside with those with mental and/or social disorders. They hate everything about it, and probably helps explain why SS exists.