What's the point of complex math?

[Falsalm]

I understand why would need multiplication, fraction, and a lot of that other bullcrap. But today i was acctually doing homework for the first time in a long while. I didn't understand this one math question. So i went to my mom to ask her for help. She says she doesn't under, she didnt do it in a while and forgot it. Why are they teaching us unnecessary math and over-complicating it when were gonna forget about it when were adults?

[Missile]

If you want to learn how to be a nuclear physist

[Desu]

It's pointless unless you plan on using it in a really serious career.

Math education needs reform. They should teach real world math and teach it really thoroughly (mostly related to money). Higher math should be electives.

[Night]

How complex are we talking? Becuase I use basic algebra all the time with money..

But I also like math. And I was stuck taking algebra 1 for years so it's the most advanced math I know.
Basically, if i knew way more complex math,because i actually like math, I'd probably find a use for it in my everyday life.

Thing is, i like math, so this everyday life thing could be really stupid like making strategies in a game. Or just really random things that I think about.

[brainiac3397]

Complex math is the language of science.

[154bmag]

It's there, just to waste your time

[brainiac3397]

But like language, if you don't plan on using it, there's no real reason to learn it.

What's the point of being forced to learn Spanish if I intend to never speak it(yes. I never wanted to learn Spanish, and barely passed the classes. Sometimes I'd fail hard because I'd give up, then I'd get nagged about "How smart student failing?!?!?!", so to shut em up I'd start trying again. I still never learned it though.)

[vonunov]

Here's one opinion on it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0E-9uJgDZU

It appears to go beyond direct utility.

[1312]

(01-16-2014 05:19 AM)vonunov Wrote:  Here's one opinion on it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0E-9uJgDZU

It appears to go beyond direct utility.

Interesting, now I want to learn mathematics, thank you.
I'll start tomorrow by being a more attentive part of my mathematics class.

[Duelix3]

http://thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=math

I don't entirely agree, but Maddox makes a reasonably convincing argument.

[Gwedin]

(01-16-2014 12:32 PM)Duelix3 Wrote:  http://thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=math

I don't entirely agree, but Maddox makes a reasonably convincing argument.

I normally love Maddox. But there's a huge flaw in his argument. He's complaining about us bitching about how hard math is and then goes on to say that he was referring to math that everybody knows. But that's not at all what we bitch about. We bitch about the complex stuff. Apparently we're donkeys if we do this.

[Trar]

Everyone needs to know the basics, but for things such as calculus and trigonometry it depends on the career the student is aiming for. I also agree with Desu; math teaching is behind the times.

I remember reading Maddox's article. I used to love him, but I'm more ambivalent now; guess I burned out on the whole macho brodude 'fuck you all' thing. His modern writing is half good points, half aggressive posturing, which at least is an improvement from his old days.

(01-16-2014 04:25 PM)Gwedin Wrote:  

(01-16-2014 12:32 PM)Duelix3 Wrote:  http://thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=math

I don't entirely agree, but Maddox makes a reasonably convincing argument.

I normally love Maddox. But there's a huge flaw in his argument. He's complaining about us bitching about how hard math is and then goes on to say that he was referring to math that everybody knows. But that's not at all what we bitch about. We bitch about the complex stuff. Apparently we're donkeys if we do this.

He was inferring the complex stuff (apart from Pascal's triangle and the Pythagorean theorem and all the other stuff he namedropped); it's not unreasonable to conclude that there's a good amount of complex mathematics involved in the design of elevators (or escalators, or even regular staircases although less so with them).

That's not to say he's entirely correct. The real flaw in his argument is that he does not seem to understand that it's not necessarily students hating math. It's that they hate the way it's forced on them, the shitty way it's taught. And him going all 'FUCK YOU MOTHERFUCKERS!!!!' doesn't help. A close friend of mine had this to say on whatever he has to say: 'it would be good advice, if it weren't for Maddox'.

[Absnt]

I'm sure somebody's mentioned to you that mathematics builds on itself. What they mean by that is that every year, you'll be using the stuff you learned from the year before. (Except maybe trig and geometry, but even some parts of these are integrated in higher maths.) It basically goes like this:

>> Basic math
>> Algebra
>> (trig, geometry, w/e)
>> Precalc
>> Calc
>> Differential, multi-variable stuff
>> Computational and Linear Algebra
>> Discrete math is thrown in there somewhere.
>> etc

Each builds on stuff from the courses before it.

If you're planning on working in an engineering, computer science, or otherwise STEM related degree, you'll have to at least go up to Calc 2. If you get into college and you're still struggling with basic Algebra, you're going to get stuck trying to catch up, and you might not be able to graduate on time / you'll end up switching majors and doing something softer with your life because you "couldn't do it".

I graduated from high school with a 62% in Algebra, went to college and barely passed Algebra, then had to withdraw from two higher level maths courses, and it's taken me till now to get into a Calc course. I'm pretty sure next year I'll have to do more calc and I'll be doing math until the end of up junior year instead of finishing up with almost everything now. It's really fucked my trajectory up. If someone would have told me how much of what I was learning then would be directly necessary for me to use now, I'd be like "oh damn" and I might have tried harder idk.

The way they teach it is pretty fucked, sure, but keep this in mind. You will have to do it if you want to go into a stem field. And even if you want to go into a business related field, you'll still probably have to take like business precalc and business calc or something, which is pretty hard (but doable even for people who struggle with math if you try hard.)...

Weather you will use it past college is irrelevant because you cannot graduate without it. They don't make exceptions for people who are bad at math, you just won't be able to do what you want to do. (Assuming you want to work in a field that requires a degree that requires math.) It MIGHT be bullshit that they require math for what you want to do (it might not be bullshit, too, it really depends), but the fact is, they're not going to change it anytime soon, so you'll pretty much have to deal with it.

Aside from all of that, math can also be extremely interesting. Not the in-depth details, perhaps, but the concepts and ideas and macro-level information presented from math is extremely interesting. Also, it can also be pretty fun if you have a lot of basic understanding and are working out a big problem. After you finish it and check it and it's right, it feels rewarding as fuck. I'd recommend watching a few math-based movies to get yourself more interested and motivated to do math. Doing this has REALLY helped me out as far as motivation goes.

For example, watch A beutiful mind and Proof and Good Will Hunting. They're pretty gerat.

[Absnt]

Also you don't have to be good at math to figure it out eventually. Never in my life have I ever been naturally good at math. I've been in shitty basic math courses for my entire life up until now, and I still passed Precalc last semester with a B. If you work it out, you can and will learn it. Also this video is pretty accurate:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYIv4jggQJc

Plus there's this one scientist who said he didn't take Calculus until he was like 35 years old, and when he did it really was worth it. I'm not saying math is fun by any means. It's hard, it really gets on my nerves at times and makes me want to freak the fuck out. I think that's kind of normal. After I learn and figure out a big problem, though, I feel pretty proud of myself, too, though. You may have never experienced this yet. That's fine, you're still doing basic math and learning the fundamentals, but it'll happen if you put your mind to it and stick with it. Even people who are "bad at math" can learn and understand it if you put the work in.

[Trar]

Thank you for those two posts Absent. I plan to study a range of CS topics and I figured I'd probably have to also study mathematics. I've never really been great at math either, but a friend of mine said that most people who think they're bad at math probably aren't that bad (I'm paraphrasing, but you get my point).

I'm going to give myself some time before I go to college to educate myself. I'm going to see it through. Besides, it would be really stupid to flub my one shot at a degree. (Unless this country actually makes higher education affordable, that is!)

[Duelix3]

I'm pretty good at math... meh. Taking BC Calculus now. 800 on Math II and Math SAT.

But it hasn't helped me much... yet. Still can't get laid with mathematics.

∫√(9+x^2)dx = ...

[Duelix3]

But damn differential equations can do SO MUCH shit. The WHOLE FUCKING WORLD is based on calculus and rates of change. It's mindblowing. The very movements of your fingers are based on biochemical reactions that can be modeled with differential equations. The movement of any object can be modeled with very basic calculus (d/dt(position) = velocity). Want to play a videogame? The movement of all of the characters are governed on differential equations. This site would not exist without complex math.

Also, geometry and trigonometry are ESSENTIAL for higher math. It would be impossible to do the aforementioned integral without a trigonometric substitution. You have to let x = 3tanø and then you obtain dx = sec^2(ø)dø followed by a substitution and a painful integration by parts.

Of course you can plug it into Mathematica and get the answer but the thinking behind such problems is important. One who thinks with mathematics gains the same rigorous logical thinking behind his other actions.

Now if you want something useless, talk about English "analysis of literature" or "poetry." Also, consider foreign languages (useless unless you want to interact with foreign people) and some aspects of history. Luckily, my history course somewhat emphasized trivial knowledge although some superfluous content remained.

I believe that all people should be acquainted with math and science. However, I think that the thought processes behind these subjects is often more important than the content itself. To accurately understand the world, one must use both the empirical method (found in the sciences) and strict logical reasoning (found in mathematics). Without such abilities, people will flounder about and make stupid decisions.

Example: War on Drugs
Without basic mathematical reasoning, the population is unable to comprehend that the policy is an enormous failure

The "War on Terror"
The country is too stupid to grasp the simple mathematical concept that most anti-terrorism spending is a colossal waste of money and that terrorists barely achieve anything.

Religion:
People who believe in conventional religion (man up in the sky directing things vested in the fate of individual people) only exist because they lack basic reasoning skills. Even other forms of religion rarely are supported by reason and empiricism

Buying lottery tickets/smoking cigarettes/gambling:
These idiotic practices persist due to a lack of reasoning by (most unfortunately) the poorer people in the country. Cigarettes have (almost) NO TANGIBLE GAIN and HUGE POTENTIAL LOSS. Yet people start and continue to smoke.

Pointless bureaucracy:
A product of people that are unable to efficiently reason and must face idiotic people that blindly follow regulations.

I could list many more. I believe that children educated in rational and empirical thought (who can understand the value of reason and valid data) would avoid such ills.

[Gwedin]

You know, I would have said something here, but just refer to the hidden content in Brainiac's signature.

[Trar]

Not to mention stochastic calculus is, AFAIK, the mathematical process that measures graphs.

The War on Drugs isn't just wasteful, it's been a great way to shit on minorities too. How many minorities have we thrown in jail for decades because they smoke marijuana? Although I'm sure it's not so much the people being stupid as it is the people not having access to the truth, or at least good knowledge.

Same thing with the War on Terror. A windfall for contractors, not to mention their shareholders, investors and high-level executives(a couple of which I am sure were government executives). Information is important, but getting certain people to see what's going on could prove harder than just showing it to them. (Also related: the Koch brothers and their attempts at deregulating US industry and financial legislation to make yet more money.)

Religion? I'm fine with people believing what they believe, as long as they don't try to infringe on others' rights. Which certain political elements are still trying to do. Damn it.

Gambling? I'm of the mind that if anyone with a brain wants to gamble they'll plan for losses accordingly. Unless they become addicted, that is. Smoking? ...I'm honestly on the fence over whether it should be banned or not. That's for another post

Bureaucracy? Yes, there is indeed a good amount of waste and fraud in the government. There's another aspect here, though. Electing people who are actually willing to cut through the crap, and not be obstructed by other officials who stand to benefit from, say, the trillions of dollars being shoveled into the Pentagon that even the military brass say they don't want. Among other things.

A booster shot of critical thinking would do very well for our society, as Bill Nye and deGrasse Tyson have said, and I agree with them. Thing is though, living your life with rationalism as your core ideal is itself irrational. Making literally every decision with rational value judgements is a good way to becoming an asshole. Sometimes logic can (and some other times it must) give way to humanity. Also, see RationalWiki and the internet atheist horde for good examples of the effects of chronic anal-retentiveness.

[Trar]

Damn, I derailed the thread. Allow me to double-post and get it back on track.

I talked with a friend, and I'm pretty sure that at least for computer science studies, the sort of math needed is more specialized, and unless I really want to dig into the fundamental functioning of the technology, I don't necessarily have to worry about it while I'm coding. I should start futzing with Python already. (It would be probably good to know nevertheless.)