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The School Survival Forums are permanently retired. If you need help with quitting school, unsupportive parents or anything else, there is a list of resources on the Help Page.

If you want to write about your experiences in school, you can write on our blog.

To everyone who joined these forums at some point, and got discouraged by the negativity and left after a while (or even got literally scared off): I'm sorry.

I wasn't good enough at encouraging people to be kinder, and removing people who refuse to be kind. Encouraging people is hard, and removing people creates conflict, and I hate conflict... so that's why I wasn't better at it.

I was a very, very sensitive teen. The atmosphere of this forum as it is now, if it had existed in 1996, would probably have upset me far more than it would have helped.

I can handle quite a lot of negativity and even abuse now, but that isn't the point. I want to help people. I want to help the people who need it the most, and I want to help people like the 1996 version of me.

I'm still figuring out the best way to do that, but as it is now, these forums are doing more harm than good, and I can't keep running them.

Thank you to the few people who have tried to understand my point of view so far. I really, really appreciate you guys. You are beautiful people.

Everyone else: If after everything I've said so far, you still don't understand my motivations, I think it's unlikely that you will. We're just too different. Maybe someday in the future it might make sense, but until then, there's no point in arguing about it. I don't have the time or the energy for arguing anymore. I will focus my time and energy on people who support me, and those who need help.

-SoulRiser

The forums are mostly read-only and are in a maintenance/testing phase, before being permanently archived. Please use this time to get the contact details of people you'd like to keep in touch with. My contact details are here.

Please do not make a mirror copy of the forums in their current state - things will still change, and some people have requested to be able to edit or delete some of their personal info.


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Lime Offline
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Post: #1
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Although it tends to be biased in favor of liberals and atheists, I generally find Rationalwiki quite useful. It does have some good counter-arguments and explanations of fallacies.

I can't stand their page on public education though.

See for yourself.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Public_education

Every time I try to edit the page, it gets undone. I guess that's standard for people who buy into this compulsory schooling doctrine that kids are all a bunch of lazy shits and the government means to do nothing but help them by imprisoning them 180 days a year, 5 days a week.
12-16-2013 09:16 AM
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RE: ...

I don't really browse on RationalWiki that much. I get a slight arrogancy vibe when I go there.

Quote:Supposing such a voluntary system of education were established, it's blatant that many students wouldn't even bother wanting to be educated and would instead elect to sleep in until 4 pm. They'd especially not have any real motivation or desire to try to get get an above average level of education. Surely that isn't a requirement to work in reputable jobs with good living wages and solid references.

Doesn't that tell you something about education? You know, the tedious, mindless work that's given to them? Of course I wouldn't go, it's fucking tedious. Plus, this is a continuation of the false theory that humans only want to watch TV and sit on their ass when that's simply not true. Humans have always wanted to discover the world. Plus, considering most people try to go to college even though it's not mandatory, that would tell you that most people would still go to school. Plus, society has made compulsory education a necessity to have a good life, and this part gives the misconception that you need a HS diploma to succeed in life. What a load of bullshit.

EDIT: I forgot the fact that school gives learning a bad name, and teachers and school officials will stress that it's the best way of learning. Good luck trying to get your kids to "learn" after the terror of public school.

Quote:Plus, as there would be no compulsion to attend a public school, that leaves the burden on parents who would have to pay to send children to school. Almost all private schools or schools putting the responsibility of fully paying on customers are not cheap: something those opposing compulsory education fail to often mention. If they are accosted on it their response is commonly boiled down to "tough shit. You have no right to my money!" From there that answer can stay as it is or branch off in many ways from the proponents saying maybe you shouldn't have had children or not working hard enough to afford to send them to school. Essentially, translated, such opponents of public education couldn't give a fuck if people can't send their children to school due to a lack of money.

This simply a ridiculous argument. This is a perfect example where the "slippery slope" logical fallacy is being used, AKA, if one thing were to happen, something else is guaranteed to happen, even without any way of knowing. This part assumes that if the compulsory part of education were gotten rid of, then all schools would turn private. There's no way of knowing that. Also, like I said, most kids would likely still go to school because of societal pressure. Therefore, the education system would still survive. Once again, bullshit.

Quote:A typical response is often summed up as "I'm not paying to imprison and indoctrinate your children in the state's hands. Teach them yourselves." That would be fine except not all parents are suitable teachers who will be good educators. Many will probably not even bother teaching their kids critical life skills and education at all. Plus the homeschooling community has yet to find a way to print accredited diplomas to impress potential employers and guarantee their children will not be stuck in dead end, low-paying careers for the rest of their lives.

This statement makes me laugh. Apparently the editors didn't know that homeschooling is on the rise, because of the overburdened outdated education system. Let's also mention the many alternative schools as well. This is also the "fundamental Chrisitan" homeschool fear as well, even though most of this isn't true. Also, autodidactism is also thrown out of the window. Once again, bullshit. We have so many resources in this modern day that factory model education is virtually obsolete. Iversity, various encyclopedias, etc all kill it.

Quote:Even if fit or unfit to teach, parents often lack enough time to adequately devoting to teaching children themselves. This is often due to them having to work: that thing they have to do to put food on the table to feed said children. This often means they'll often choose not to bother teaching them at all or will entrust the task to others which, as they'll find, requires money to do. In fact the desire of parents to have others educate their children instead of themselves is precisely what resulted in public school systems around the world being created. They exist as a result of parents who wouldn't have to worry about doing it themselves, ensuring they bring home enough money to stay alive and getting rid of their mini-thems long enough to have some breathing space. How's that for irony?

This is the typical "all kids are born dumb" theory, yet this simply isn't true. When you were a kid, didn't you want to explore the world? I understand some parents simply don't have time, yet this is, once again, blowing out autodidactism. Free sources like Wikipedia, etc all exist. This takes the position that the only form of education is the factory model kind. Also, what's stopping parents from hiring people like tutors? And who said they have to teach their kids? Those that can't will still send them to school. Bullshit. The whole point is if school wasn't compulsory, not if all schooling was privatized, yet this article makes it seems like we're supporting the privatization of education.

Quote:Speaking of jobs, many employers will not even bother considering resumes of people who have never graduated from public school due to their lack of degrees. Even if people are somehow well-educated without having gone through a normal school curriculum or similar education program and can work just as well as people who have degrees, the chances they will be hired are slim to none. Unless they can get a Rocky Balboa-style break, then the choice of getting a good career with living wages without an accredited high school degree are almost non-existent. In fact, even with a high school degree it's only slightly better with many still paying under a living wage. The real meaty careers require, at best, an Associate's Degree or Vocational Certificate from an accredited college or university. Fields like science and medicine require higher degrees. Good luck even trying to work as a doctor at a prestigious hospital without an MD.

Yet again, this statement blatantly ignores the fact that alternative education is on the rise. Not only that, there are plenty of people who have had success with GEDs. And, there are many jobs (especially in computers) that don't even give a shit about high school education. Yet again, bullshit.

This article, gets an F for Fuckballs.

EDIT: I made my arguments more stronger and clearer.

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(This post was last modified: 12-16-2013 06:19 PM by James Comey.)
12-16-2013 09:47 AM
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Also that article really is biased as fucking hell. There is no mention of zero tolerance policies, there is no mention of "herd mentality" or "sheeple", something school is notorious for. There is no mention about the fact that schools were directly modeled after factories.

Maybe we storm the discussion page? It's so biased it's laughable.

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12-16-2013 09:49 AM
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vonunov Offline
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Quote:This article, gets an F for Fuckballs.

For real.

Quote:Speaking of jobs, many employers will not even bother considering resumes of people who have never graduated from public school due to their lack of degrees.

Okay, no. I've had eight jobs and five independent contracting positions, and the only time anyone said anything about a high school diploma was when I was joining the Navy. I got in with a homeschool diploma and half-fabricated transcript. There's no way this kind of thing should cause trouble with your résumé being considered. If you're putting anything on your résumé about how you didn't finish high school, then that fact is the least of your problems. Hey, while we're at it, let's include a list of things you don't know how to do and a couple of references who'll gladly talk about your poor work ethic. That ought to do it.

Quote:Many will probably not even bother teaching their kids critical life skills and education at all.

And the schools do? Let's see, what did I learn in school that I find marginally useful today? Cursive. I got a little clarification on telling time. Spanish. CPR doesn't work like in the movies. Note that these aren't critical life skills anyway. I already had English and arithmetic down. Who here was ever taught by a public school how to manage finances, cook a real meal, handle interpersonal conflict, etc.? Didn't think so.

Quote:Plus the homeschooling community has yet to find a way to print accredited diplomas to impress potential employers

Haha what¿

Quote:Good luck even trying to work as a doctor at a prestigious hospital without an MD.

Wow really you think

Quote:would instead elect to sleep in until 4 pm.

This whole thing is super opinionated.

Quote:This is often due to them having to work: that thing they have to do to put food on the table to feed said children.

And condescending.

Way to rational guys
(This post was last modified: 12-16-2013 11:28 AM by vonunov.)
12-16-2013 11:01 AM
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brainiac3397 Offline
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Once a couple has kids, they shall be forbidden from saying anything about how they work hard for their kids and expect something in return.

It's an annoying remark. Plus, if you're making kids, you're pretty much consenting to doing the hard work. Can't bitch about something you should know would happen.

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(06-14-2013 08:02 AM)Potato Wrote:  watch the fuq out, we've got an "intellectual" over here.

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12-16-2013 12:37 PM
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Alistoriv Offline
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I hate that they used a John Green quote when he's done a ted talk where he says that he didnn't learn much in school.
And I'm sure that school will teach people how to think forthemselves considering our school system was created to do the opposite.

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(03-20-2013 05:08 PM)brainiac3397 Wrote:  Stand up with pride and say "No! I will not be a McDonalds employee. I WILL BE A GARBAGE MAN!"

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12-16-2013 01:53 PM
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Quote:Can't bitch about something you should know would happen.

Hm, how you say? Do not complain about that to which you need not have subjected yourself? Razz
(This post was last modified: 12-16-2013 01:54 PM by vonunov.)
12-16-2013 01:54 PM
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(12-16-2013 01:53 PM)Alistoriv Wrote:  I hate that they used a John Green quote when he's done a ted talk where he says that he didnn't learn much in school.
And I'm sure that school will teach people how to think forthemselves considering our school system was created to do the opposite.

Didn't John Green also do a talk (independent though) on the misery of middle school?

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(This post was last modified: 12-16-2013 04:52 PM by James Comey.)
12-16-2013 02:03 PM
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RE: ...

John Green may be against some aspects of school, but he's pro-school. I know he want big reforms, though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x78PnPd-V-A

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(This post was last modified: 12-16-2013 03:54 PM by Subb.)
12-16-2013 03:49 PM
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(12-16-2013 01:54 PM)vonunov Wrote:  
Quote:Can't bitch about something you should know would happen.

Hm, how you say? Do not complain about that to which you need not have subjected yourself? Razz

People have been parents for...eons. It is difficult to know what you'll be getting yourself into when you have kids. Acting like you didnt know or didnt expect it is like me buying a bugatti not expecting it to shoot off like a rocket if I try to drive it like Id drive my crappy 12 year old hyundai.

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12-16-2013 04:09 PM
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RationalWiki is a can of worms. Their mission is to basically refute pseudo-science, crank and fundamentalist crap. They do have a liberal/atheist bias(and they pretty much do admit to being self-satisfied drunkards), but it's a nice source of information on (most of) the various topics they cover.

Thing is? They do it with a vigorous fervor for scientific studies and 'rational & logical' thought. Nothing really wrong with being rational or logical, except when it comes to basing your entire life & worldview around it (which is something some of their members seem to do; a roundly illogical way to live which I explain below) and shitting on others merely for being religious because their beliefs are not logical and rational, which I surmise they do (and according to a friend of mine who has a beef with RW for these very same issues they do it often).

Sometimes things that seem to be 100% logical are not always superior to things that do not seem 100% logical at first glance, Sometimes things with scientific studies (which themselves are imperfect) attached to them are not always superior to things that are not backed up by multiple scientific studies. Or, as in public schooling's case, the fact that society's been doing it for a while. I am not anti-science, or anti-logic. It's just...there's a quote on one of their mission statement pages that goes like this:

Quote:RationalWiki does have a strong skeptically-oriented point of view; and that point of view is that the scientific method and the information gained from its application is better than almost anything else humanity has come up with.

I am of the mind that 'almost anything else' actually covers a bit more ground than they realize. As it does in the case of schooling, because I guess what education reformers like our own xcriteria are not following The Established Way or are not The Established Way themselves.

(By the way, the reason our edits are being reverted is probably because they clash heavily with what they accept as the 'rational' view of education, without the benefit of us debating it thoroughly on the talk pages first.)

I mean they've managed some truly myopic, asinine shit in their rush to defend factory schooling. Skepticism is healthy, but, again, not as the core of your worldview which a good number of them seem to have done. I've already touched on this another thread I posted earlier this year. Here's another quote from the public education article in addition to Hansgrohes' and vonuvov's posts:

Quote:Alleged history [of public education]

Oh, no, evil industrialists founded the education system to churn out obedient little factory workers! Clearly the nefarious goals of men who died 100 years ago should lead us to dismiss one of the most beneficial services provided to us by the government!

I mean never fucking mind that Gatto didn't explicitly indict the industrialists that went along with the introduction of factory-model public schooling because it was more or less the direction society was going in when it was introduced. He says this in the prologue of his History of Underground Education. I need to read more of it myself but at least I've apparently read more of it than any RWikian has.

Fortunately the situation is not all shit. Their unschooling page is more reasonable, with JTG material (that isn't twisted into a negative light) and pros/cons for unschooling versus factory-model schooling. It's still got some cruft here and there but it's a starting point for improvement.

I may seem angry in this post, but I really don't like seeing this sort of factually vacant bullshit; not about this topic anyway. I'm not sure if we'll gain much ground if we go to their talk pages, but I think one of us ought to register and form a more cohesive argument in our favor if we're going to do anything here. I already registered there for an unrelated reason, and while I don't plan to use my account there anymore I suppose I could use it for this task.


Here's some stuff I wrote that started about differences between viewpoints and ended up as a manifesto of sorts:

I believe the government still has a role to play in an ideal education system, unlike the conservatives they like to bash along with alternative education: namely, to teach the fundamentals that everyone needs today.

The changes that would entail our vision of a transformed education system are not limited to the scope of government. They involve better understanding & changing the ways children learn and are educated in today's interconnected environment(because there are a lot more ways these days) for the better, away from the factory-model that was introduced for the benefit of industrialization and social management. Making public education not shit during the fundamental stages/if students wish to continue going there would help as well; I'm talking about more funding and less Orwellian bureaucracy among other things. (If you don't believe me on that last part, you were either lucky, have a bad memory, or are willfully ignorant.)

That, and making sure they are not only ready to succeed in said environment(after learning on their own terms at their own pace, for the most part), but that they can also achieve their individual goals and become their own person(instead of having their uniqueness and natural curiosity squashed by shit public schooling). Yeah, there's differences of opinion. That's where the debating comes in.


Feel free to use any portion of my post in a debate. You'll have to format it better than I did though; it's late Razz Also try not to commit any obvious logical fallacies. They may use that against you in favor of your actual argument. Try reminding them that we are pro-knowledge and education, just not pro-schooling (pretty much).

(If I seem overly descriptive in this post, it's because I wrote it with the assumption that RWikiers would read it Razz )
(This post was last modified: 12-16-2013 04:31 PM by Trar.)
12-16-2013 04:17 PM
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vonunov Offline
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RE: ...

Does anyone know the context of that Gatto quote at the top of the article? I looked it up but I can only find it just as badly out of context on social media sites, "quotes" databases, and people's shitty forum signatures. Razz

It's nearly impossible to know quite what he meant by it without context, and just as difficult to know what anyone intends by quoting it without commentary.

Edit: As an aside, who even sleeps in until 4 p.m.? You'd have to be staying up past dawn to have that. I can go to bed after 4 a.m., and even then I can stay in bed until at most 2 p.m. before I have to get up, or I'll just start feeling worse for it.
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12-16-2013 05:40 PM
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RE: ...

Ha what are these "truths" about the school system.

"To socialise children, in other words to teach them how to get along with their peers.
To indoctrinate children into the particular worldview which happens to prevail in a given society, whether they be religious, political, or racial!
Associated with the above, to teach them the moral values of the society where they live.
To teach them something about maths, history, Latin etc.
To teach skills and behaviors deemed beneficial to their likely future employer.
To teach them how to think for themselves." This site and particularly this quote seem very biased in the favor of the authoritarian, compulsory school system.
12-17-2013 09:49 AM
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"To teach them how to think for themselves"

Um, no. I laughed when I saw this. School indoctrinates you to follow what the teacher says. Speak against the teacher and you're on trouble. The exact opposite.

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12-17-2013 10:08 AM
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RE: ...

(12-16-2013 03:49 PM)SubCulture Wrote:  John Green may be against some aspects of school, but he's pro-school. I know he want big reforms, though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x78PnPd-V-A

Only Vlogbrothers video I've facepalmed at.

I think that the intentions of that video are correct and the underlying message is fine. Since school has become compulsory, people have become more educated and as a result, we have done better as a society. That does not, however, mean that our school system or the amount of time that is spent in it are correct, and he doesn't say that.

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(03-20-2013 05:08 PM)brainiac3397 Wrote:  Stand up with pride and say "No! I will not be a McDonalds employee. I WILL BE A GARBAGE MAN!"

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12-17-2013 11:38 AM
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I strongly dislike rationalwiki. Do they even satire?

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12-17-2013 11:41 AM
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RE: ...

(12-17-2013 11:38 AM)Alistoriv Wrote:  
(12-16-2013 03:49 PM)SubCulture Wrote:  John Green may be against some aspects of school, but he's pro-school. I know he want big reforms, though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x78PnPd-V-A

Only Vlogbrothers video I've facepalmed at.

I think that the intentions of that video are correct and the underlying message is fine. Since school has become compulsory, people have become more educated and as a result, we have done better as a society. That does not, however, mean that our school system or the amount of time that is spent in it are correct, and he doesn't say that.

I actually support the idea of a public education system. I'm actually on those that say that factory model schooling was actually effective in years past, but considering how society has changed, and alongside with all the rigorous testing and assignments (our teacher actually admitted that when it comes to generations we're the most burned out), not so much anymore.

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12-17-2013 12:02 PM
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If school is compulsory, at least give them some goddamn universal human rights other than some peachy shit like the right to an education (yeah, well you didn't give us the right to have education forced on us) and the right to freedom of speech when your teacher gives you freedom of speech (lol). I'm sure there are a bunch more trivial ones that most students couldn't care less about.
12-17-2013 01:00 PM
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Post: #19
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It's one thing to have a public education system, it's just that little buzz word. "Compulsory". It's like nuclear, and bomb. Or Pussy, and cat. Compulsory, and education. Education on its own it great, but the word compulsory ruins it. Like how the word cat ruins pussy, or how the bomb ruins nuclear.

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"Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have. The course of history shows as government grows, liberty decreases. " --Thomas Jefferson
12-17-2013 05:02 PM
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Post: #20
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Hey, glad to see someone else noticed this....
sorta pained me a bit
12-18-2013 03:05 AM
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KFC Nyan Cat Away
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Post: #21
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RationalWiki sucks. It's FOX News for liberals!

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12-18-2013 10:35 AM
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Trar Away
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Post: #22
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At least RW is usually factually correct and on the right side of societal and historical issues. Usually.

Everyone needs to know at least the basics (reading, writing and basic math) these days, but . Ideally, learners would be able to choose from a wide range of education resources and methods, including, yes, public education. Also ideally, public education would not be shit, and also be more adaptive to today's changed world.

Hans, while I like most of your post, I'm not sure if factory schooling was really all that great back when it was introduced. Think of what it does to students. The negative effects. You oughta know what I mean, right? You think that sort of stuff didn't happen back then? Because I'm pretty sure it did Razz
(This post was last modified: 12-19-2013 03:48 PM by Trar.)
12-19-2013 03:47 PM
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Post: #23
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This is a good question: what were the effects on students back in different eras compared to today? Nowadays, we're bombarded with testing and assignments. I'm not sure about the 1800s, for example, or the 1950s.

This is more like anecdotal evidence, but my teacher said that her generation wasn't nearly as stressed out and actually agreed that today's generation is much more burned out than any generation. Plus, I don't think the 1950s, for example, had stuff like zero tolerance, etc. Not in any way defending factory model education, though my original point was that the way society was, say the 1950s, there really wasn't much alternative. Nowadays, factory education is completely out of date.

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12-19-2013 03:53 PM
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Trar Away
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Post: #24
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Homeschooling could have theoretically been possible in the '50s, but it would likely have been tougher both practically and societally.
12-20-2013 11:19 AM
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brainiac3397 Offline
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Post: #25
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I would have liked studying in the 50s(mostly because I would like living in the 50s). Course it wouldn't be as fun as time progresses into the 60s...70s...80s...90s

I think I'll stay here in the 21st century for now, hopefully make it to the 22nd.

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(06-14-2013 08:02 AM)Potato Wrote:  watch the fuq out, we've got an "intellectual" over here.

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12-20-2013 12:16 PM
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Trar Away
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Post: #26
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The '50s were more interesting than people give it credit for. It was still a time of rigid social conservatism, racial ignorance and Cold War hysteria, but at least it had Robert A. Heinlein.
(This post was last modified: 12-21-2013 03:16 AM by Trar.)
12-21-2013 03:15 AM
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brainiac3397 Offline
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Post: #27
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I'm fine with the conservatism and racial ignorance.

The healthcare of the time is a bit worrisome. Not as troubling as that of the 1880s, but I wouldn't want to be in a hospital of the 50s(hell, I don't like the feel of most hospitals today, though they certainly look better)

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(06-14-2013 08:02 AM)Potato Wrote:  watch the fuq out, we've got an "intellectual" over here.

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12-21-2013 03:21 AM
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The first artificial heart was installed in '53, I think.

Of course there's the lead paint, cigarettes and DDT to deal with...
12-21-2013 11:29 AM
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brainiac3397 Offline
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Asbestos?

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(06-14-2013 08:02 AM)Potato Wrote:  watch the fuq out, we've got an "intellectual" over here.

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12-21-2013 01:10 PM
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Trar Away
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Post: #30
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That too.

(I love how we derail threads. It's just one of those things that makes a community, in my view.)
12-25-2013 06:05 AM
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