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School Shooting in Nevada
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Post: #1
School Shooting in Nevada

http://www.cnn.com/2013/10/22/justice/ne...-shooting/

Thoughts?

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10-25-2013 08:37 AM
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Ky Offline
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School Shooting in Nevada

Wrote a story on this in my school's online newspaper. Didn't express my opinion; not allowed to, since I was simply telling the facts.

My thoughts? Darn terrible business. They say the shooter was a nice kid who'd brighten up people's days, but was also someone who was relentlessly teased. Guy must've snapped.

Mental illness is a major cause of shootings, indeed, but it's not the only one. There's also the fact that school environments, what with the bullying, foster this kind of violent, destructive, and deplorable behavior. The shootings will not end until someone explores the mind of the depressed student, and that probably won't happen for some time.

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10-25-2013 09:52 AM
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RE: School Shooting in Nevada

Bad business for me. Every shooting increases the likelihood someone will be discomforted by my drawing of firearms(even if theyre fictional or my own ideas).

Samuel Colt carved his design of a revolver of a ship. If I tried that Id probably be arrested and given a psych eval....

What have we come too? I always say "Humans kill" yet nobody wants to believe this fact. In fact, guns today promote equality. The weak now have the firepower to hurt the strong.

But back on topic. Its pretty obvious why these kids snap. Its because the idiots of the school dont seem to realize how much these kids suffer from abuse. Then when they snap, they blame violent movies, videogames and parents...

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(06-14-2013 08:02 AM)Potato Wrote:  watch the fuq out, we've got an "intellectual" over here.

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10-25-2013 10:57 AM
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RE: School Shooting in Nevada

(10-25-2013 10:57 AM)brainiac3397 Wrote:  Then when they snap, they blame violent movies, videogames and parents...

Considering the release of GTA V was only a month ago, I'm preparing for the shitstorm of calls to get that game banned.

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10-25-2013 11:10 AM
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RE: School Shooting in Nevada

tl;dr: I believe change can happen sooner rather than later. The first step is for more people to learn about what's already being talked about. There's more to all this than what I put below, but this is another step toward elements that might go a in a book, or even a book linked to an online course with discussions.

(10-25-2013 09:52 AM)DoA Wrote:  The shootings will not end until someone explores the mind of the depressed student, and that probably won't happen for some time.

There are a lot of tools to help students understand their own minds and those of others. They just tend to be lacking in a lot of people's lives, and in a lot of school environments.

The fact that asking questions and adapting the learning environment to learner needs and preferences is rare in factory-model schools doesn't help.

But, things are changing. More people are asking questions... and the potential to change how things work is partly in our hands. The potential to write a book, create a video, start a conversation, or dive into an existing one is in all of our hands.

In fact, a lot has already been written, spoken, and all that... but much of this material doesn't make it into very many people's circle of awareness.

Just take an article like that CNN one. It has no mention of empathy programs, doing school differently, or understanding bullying.

The "what people are doing" is squarely along these lines:

"Since the Newtown shootings last December, proposed school security plans across the country have included arming teachers, adding armed security guards and bringing in bulletproof backpacks and white boards."

Meanwhile, programs and approaches of various kinds are out there. Do they work? Are the a joke? Either way, these ideas need to be discussed.

It's worth keeping in mind that mental health, education, entertainment, and people surfing media and having conversations all involve the mind. People imagining what to do, reflecting on the past, and deciding what to do in an unbearable situation all involve the mind.

And that means, all those things involve the way people look at themselves and the world. What gives rise to this? Why do some people see situations that can't be solved through any means but violence, or giving up hope that anything can be done?

What we can do is learn about the viewpoints, discuss them, and bring more people into the discussion.

Starting points:

Start Empathy

Schools need to create human beings and citizens who are empathetic, Nikhil Goyal

Empathy is about more than feeling for someone. Done well, it involves perspective-taking, and the ability to understand the minds of others. But that is a challenging skill to learn. And the starting point is learning to observe and be aware of one's own mind and mental processes.

Dan Siegel talks about this -- and the important skills of "reflection, relationships and resilience" -- in his TEDxBlue talk, about how schools need to be completely redesigned.



Watch on YouTube

Another crucial skill is that of creative problem solving, including brainstorming options. This is notoriously crushed out of people by school, but the good news is, people can develop this skill. On approach to doing so is called design thinking, a process developed at Stanford's d.school, and now available to learn about in a number of forms, including talks, courses, and books.

How many schools offer a course based on that, or provide support, encouragement, or credit for people to learn these skills from sources other than their assigned teachers?

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(Even people who do well in school often come out of it thinking that something was missing. No wonder those of us who don't like school think something is missing.)



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And finally, the question of how to make good decisions. Not just "right or wrong" -- though that's important, too... but deciding what to do in an open-ended situation where there isn't a single clear path forward.

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10-25-2013 11:34 AM
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Post: #6
School Shooting in Nevada

People always play a blame game after these events. I think we need to get something clear over here:

1. That's one student, not the entire population below 18 in the country. Why do people create harmful stereotypes because of the actions of a single individual? Imagine if everyone started crying about how horrible and disrespectful that generation was when an adult commits murder. Hmm?

2. The person himself is to blame, yes, but at the same time I can hardly see how sticking them into an oppressive, demeaning environment could possibly be supportive. If someone went crazy and started stabbing everyone after being stuck in a concentration camp and forced to watch his family burn in front of him, it'd be pretty hard to believe that his environment didn't contribute to his insanity. Of course, school is not at the level of a concentration camp, but it is nevertheless it is hardly a friendly place for someone to be forced into 7 hours a day, 5 days a week.

3. Why do these school murderers always kill people the media and survivors claim to be kind and good? Is it simply because we as a society think we have to flatter people after they're dead due to some corrupted sense of respect, or is it because selfless individuals are more likely to attempt sacrificing themselves for others? Perhaps it's because the killers just choose really bad targets. It is a horrible act to kill anyone "innocent", of course, but why target those who truly didn't do anything wrong?

4. Shut it with the video games already. They are probably the biggest scapegoats when it comes to these incidents, and yet I've hardly seen anyone who starts up a game of COD and gets the idea that it would be a good idea to mow down hundreds of civilians in an airport or something. Players may become "desensitized" to killing in video games, perhaps-but not in a way that would promote murder. Rather than believing that killing is OK and there's nothing wrong with it, people simply disassociate the concept of death from shooting down enemy players and respawning computer-generated pixels. They don't lose it altogether, and most major character deaths do rely on the ability of the players to possess an understanding of death to evoke any emotion. ("Yes, I killed that bastard!" and "What...? That's BS! I hope the developers magically resurrect you for the next game!")

5. I've noticed that the perpetrators' personalities pre-homicide frequently bare some resemblance to my own. Hope I don't ever snap like that. Frankly, if you wish to kill yourself, you should have the right to do what you wish with your own life. But why drag others down with you?

6. Bad parenting is also frequently brought up as a culprit. Quite likely, but not in the way that such commenters would like to believe. According to them, if we all stopped sparing the rod/belt/fist/cigarette lighter and used controlling, insulting, and manipulative parenting methods, nothing of this sort would occur. Surely teaching and showing them kindness and actual respect (rather than blind obedience) wouldn't cause such children to display those same qualities to others!

Citing your own anecdotal accounts of harsh parenting being necessary to bring you up as a decent young lad or whatever is completely worthless. I'd say it's probably a form of denial and an excuse for you to perpetuate the cycle. Not only do such people frequently come off as cold, there also seems to be a common pattern of these people resenting the treatment at the time, and then looking back and seeing it was necessary (or otherwise a similar knobheaded statement to the same effect). Of course it's easy for you to say these things now-you're not experiencing it anymore. Overall, such messages sound like attempts at superiority, rationalization of your own behavior around children, and a cover-up for personal insecurities.

7. The religious bigots who claim the (currently decreasing) violence is due to increasing secularization of society have got to go. Your biased personal views and cheap shots can be reserved for another time, such as when you can provide evidence for this ridiculous claimed link.
(This post was last modified: 10-26-2013 01:56 PM by Lime.)
10-26-2013 01:55 PM
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RE: School Shooting in Nevada

Good idea to mow down civilians at airport? No. That's messed up.

Does it sound fun?*grabs controller* Oh Yeah...

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(06-14-2013 08:02 AM)Potato Wrote:  watch the fuq out, we've got an "intellectual" over here.

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10-26-2013 03:49 PM
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School Shooting in Nevada

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmWQn6LFhzg

^Uh, yeah.

You don't actually have to shoot anyone, although they'll all die anyway.
(This post was last modified: 10-27-2013 01:27 AM by Lime.)
10-27-2013 01:25 AM
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School Shooting in Nevada

I do my best to make sure it's my bullets that deliver the killing blow. And clean up the stragglers.

Not that I'd do it in real life, but that's what makes it fun in the game. I also wouldn't send troops under my command in real life to their deaths just to clear a path for the rest of my army, but that's often what I do in strategy games. Get a nice sized number and do it Stalin style and pump out them human waves while speaking of how heroic their deaths will be(like a quote I saw somewhere said, with me paraphrasing it, "A dead hero is still dead")

Plus why should you feel it a problem. Everytime you replay the level, the same characters appear. They don't really die because they're just computer-generated images that represent a human. They don't feel, they don't think, they have no "life" or past. Just like the imaginary enemies I frequently kill during my "pretend" sessions XD

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(06-14-2013 08:02 AM)Potato Wrote:  watch the fuq out, we've got an "intellectual" over here.

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10-27-2013 05:12 AM
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School Shooting in Nevada

Quote:Plus why should you feel it a problem. Everytime you replay the level, the same characters appear. They don't really die because they're just computer-generated images that represent a human. They don't feel, they don't think, they have no "life" or past. Just like the imaginary enemies I frequently kill during my "pretend" sessions XD
Which is why it is stupidity to equate thinking it is OK to create some red pixels and an image in the shape of a dead body on a TV screen to murdering real human beings.
10-27-2013 06:11 AM
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School Shooting in Nevada

Usually the video games affect people who are already broken mentally. Games don't destroy your mental control, but when your mental control has already been destroyed by other life factors, they'll affect the person.

So when schools blamed video games for making kids go gun-crazy, it's pretty inaccurate because the kid has already reached crazy. I'm pretty sure at that point, almost everything will be twisted in their minds as ideas to commit violence.

They've already gone past the point of no return(well, possibly no return since there is a chance)

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(06-14-2013 08:02 AM)Potato Wrote:  watch the fuq out, we've got an "intellectual" over here.

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10-27-2013 08:22 AM
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Ky Offline
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School Shooting in Nevada

This thread is about a school shooting. You guys aren't making things any less morbid.

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10-27-2013 08:35 AM
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School Shooting in Nevada

Life is morbid. I could step out and give you a nice list of how I could get injured and killed, and in what sort of way.

It's the downside of being made of fleshy matter rather than pure energy.(or energy and lifeless matter ,like a cyborg)

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(06-14-2013 08:02 AM)Potato Wrote:  watch the fuq out, we've got an "intellectual" over here.

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10-27-2013 08:38 AM
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xcriteria Offline
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RE: School Shooting in Nevada

(10-26-2013 01:55 PM)Lime Wrote:  1. That's one student, not the entire population below 18 in the country. Why do people create harmful stereotypes because of the actions of a single individual? Imagine if everyone started crying about how horrible and disrespectful that generation was when an adult commits murder. Hmm?

A lot of people do start crying (or cynically shrug) about how horrible humanity in general is, when some of these things occur.

Why do people create stereotypes? That's a big conversation (and lesson to build out as part of the quest to transform education by doing it better. Let's figure out a way to award credits of some kind for investigating these questions, like about stereotypes, and show different way of doing education.

Stereotypes and Metacognition

You can consider two ways people "create" stereotype: one is in their minds... which tends to be automatic and not intentional... the other is intentionally furthering a stereotype in some way. A lot of news fits somewhere in between.

Stereotypes are one kind of mental schema that people use to make sense of the world. We all use categories, mental structures and assumptions to interpret the world. However, without reflecting on how all this works, people tend to be stuck in their cave.

(See School and the Allegory of the Cave.)

If people learned to reflect on how their minds work, a process called metacognition, or in Dan Siegel's terms, mindsight, it'd go a long way toward the elimination of superficial stereotypes and assumptions about cause and effect.

Quite a few people are now advocating for various forms of that ("social and emotional learning," "non-cognitive skills," "teaching empathy," "deeper learning, "philosophy for kids.")

However, these things aren't being discussed everywhere, and they can all be taken a few steps further. Why can't these skills be applied to questioning how school works, and re-inventing education from within -- as well as outside, on the web, and in the world at large?

(Consider addressing this in your C-SPAN 2014 StudentCam Competition videos.)

Further references:

How Do We Define and Measure “Deeper Learning”?

Congressman Tim Ryan Introduces the Academic, Social, and Emotional Learning Act



Watch on YouTube

(10-26-2013 01:55 PM)Lime Wrote:  2. The person himself is to blame, yes, but at the same time I can hardly see how sticking them into an oppressive,

Absolutely agreed. A lot of these tragic situations seem to step in part from bullying... which is a known and common presence in schools. Why? In part, because they're locked in cages.

(10-26-2013 01:55 PM)Lime Wrote:  Of course, school is not at the level of a concentration camp, but it is nevertheless it is hardly a friendly place for someone to be forced into 7 hours a day, 5 days a week.

A lot of people do not understand this perspective. It's our job to help people explain why. Think about it... a person can argue, my job is "hardly a friendly place for someone to be forced into 7 hours a day, 5 days a week."

And for many, that's just how life is. But does it have to be like that? That's where a big discussion needs to occur... because that "life just sucks" mindset is pervasive, and I think one of the last remaining threads that keeps schools in factory model format.

(Meanwhile, lots of people are finding better ways to live life.)

(10-26-2013 01:55 PM)Lime Wrote:  3. Why do these school murderers always kill people the media and survivors claim to be kind and good?]
(10-26-2013 01:55 PM)Lime Wrote:  It is a horrible act to kill anyone "innocent", of course, but why target those who truly didn't do anything wrong?

Very few people are complete monsters. Some of these kids might have done something wrong (say, teasing the killer), but that hardly merits the extreme actions some people take.

The "why" in each of these cases is a big question to get into. One of the best ways to find answers may be to learn from people before these events occur.

Unfortunately, media follow-up tends to focus on things like "arming teachers" or "banning guns" to the complete exclusion of talking about people's minds and perspectives on life, or different ways for people to learn or reach out for help.

That has to change.

(10-26-2013 01:55 PM)Lime Wrote:  4. Shut it with the video games already. They are probably the biggest scapegoats when it comes to these incidents, and yet I've hardly seen anyone who starts up a game of COD and gets the idea that it would be a good idea to mow down hundreds of civilians in an airport or something.

They are a big scapegoat. In some people, the desensitization, mixed with no other concept of how to deal with life than violence, could be a bad combination.

The solution needs to be more than about just banning things... it needs to address how and why people find no better path to take.

(10-26-2013 01:55 PM)Lime Wrote:  5. I've noticed that the perpetrators' personalities pre-homicide frequently bare some resemblance to my own. Hope I don't ever snap like that. Frankly, if you wish to kill yourself, you should have the right to do what you wish with your own life. But why drag others down with you?

Would you like to expand on that? What kind of personality traits are you thinking of?

(10-26-2013 01:55 PM)Lime Wrote:  6. Bad parenting is also frequently brought up as a culprit. Quite likely, but not in the way that such commenters would like to believe. According to them, if we all stopped sparing the rod/belt/fist/cigarette lighter and used controlling, insulting, and manipulative parenting methods, nothing of this sort would occur. Surely teaching and showing them kindness and actual respect (rather than blind obedience) wouldn't cause such children to display those same qualities to others!

That's a big conversation... what consists of good or bad parenting. It's especially complex since much parenting involves outsourcing a good chunk of the parenting to school.

But, from these various news articles about parents who don't know what to do with their wayward kids, it's clear that it's a topic worth discussing.

Along those lines, The Whole Brain Child by Dan Siegel and Tina Bryson gets at some of the more empowering ways to raise a child.

(10-26-2013 01:55 PM)Lime Wrote:  Citing your own anecdotal accounts of harsh parenting being necessary to bring you up as a decent young lad or whatever is completely worthless. I'd say it's probably a form of denial and an excuse for you to perpetuate the cycle. Not only do such people frequently come off as cold, there also seems to be a common pattern of these people resenting the treatment at the time, and then looking back and seeing it was necessary (or otherwise a similar knobheaded statement to the same effect). Of course it's easy for you to say these things now-you're not experiencing it anymore. Overall, such messages sound like attempts at superiority, rationalization of your own behavior around children, and a cover-up for personal insecurities.

What kind of harsh parenting do you have in mind? There are a pretty wide range of approaches to parenting that have their issues. Even if a parent isn't harsh, they may not attune very well to their kid's minds, or model good ways of dealing with life.

But yes, people tend to find it hard to question and examine their own past, to reflect, share, and consider whether and when to repeat things. And, when they don't do that, it opens the door to negative cycles being repeated.



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What can be done to get people talking about about parenting, and how that relates to education and simply figuring out life in a media-saturated world?

Peter Gray & allies launching the Alliance for Self-directed Education

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RE: School Shooting in Nevada

(10-27-2013 08:38 AM)brainiac3397 Wrote:  Life is morbid. I could step out and give you a nice list of how I could get injured and killed, and in what sort of way.

It's the downside of being made of fleshy matter rather than pure energy.(or energy and lifeless matter ,like a cyborg)

Can give give a nice list of what to do to influence those risks? If you're going to trigger mortality sallience, at least you could provide some solutions for how people can deal with it and use the resulting anxiety for a productive purpose.

(Some call to action like: donate now, eat your vegetables, remember to look both ways, change your mindset on life, build up some karma points, etc.)

Maybe a good one for this is, support the transformation of education to help learners learn beyond the walls of their schools.
(This post was last modified: 10-27-2013 10:20 AM by xcriteria.)
10-27-2013 10:20 AM
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RE: School Shooting in Nevada

School will drive anyone mad if given enough time to do so.

Previously known as Derchin.
(This post was last modified: 10-27-2013 01:12 PM by Miller0700.)
10-27-2013 12:36 PM
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School Shooting in Nevada

Quote:Would you like to expand on that? What kind of personality traits are you thinking of?
Quiet, unintrusive, mostly.

I've also seen such people described as kind and helpful. Am I kind and helpful? I have no idea. That's up for others to judge.
10-28-2013 01:49 AM
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