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To everyone who joined these forums at some point, and got discouraged by the negativity and left after a while (or even got literally scared off): I'm sorry.

I wasn't good enough at encouraging people to be kinder, and removing people who refuse to be kind. Encouraging people is hard, and removing people creates conflict, and I hate conflict... so that's why I wasn't better at it.

I was a very, very sensitive teen. The atmosphere of this forum as it is now, if it had existed in 1996, would probably have upset me far more than it would have helped.

I can handle quite a lot of negativity and even abuse now, but that isn't the point. I want to help people. I want to help the people who need it the most, and I want to help people like the 1996 version of me.

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Thank you to the few people who have tried to understand my point of view so far. I really, really appreciate you guys. You are beautiful people.

Everyone else: If after everything I've said so far, you still don't understand my motivations, I think it's unlikely that you will. We're just too different. Maybe someday in the future it might make sense, but until then, there's no point in arguing about it. I don't have the time or the energy for arguing anymore. I will focus my time and energy on people who support me, and those who need help.

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"Rough Drafts"
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..V.. Offline
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Post: #1
"Rough Drafts"

A lot of people work better when they type an essay accordingly, not when they have to make a "rough draft" and then a "final draft".
Let people use their own methods to typing an essay instead of conforming everybody to your standards.

10-09-2013 12:27 AM
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Night Offline
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Post: #2
RE: "Rough Drafts"

I've never made a rough draft, and I've never had problems for that.

What the fuck?
This is so petty and dumb.

Why are you wasting your time complaining about the bullshit little things that literally make no difference!

I'm a girl ffffeck
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10-09-2013 04:17 AM
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brainiac3397 Offline
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Post: #3
"Rough Drafts"

I don't necessarily write a "rough draft", but I do find that once I finish writing an essay and go back over it, I really end up polishing it up.

Usually the 1st go over suffices, but if I go over 2 more times, I'll have a pretty neat essay prepared.

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(06-14-2013 08:02 AM)Potato Wrote:  watch the fuq out, we've got an "intellectual" over here.

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10-09-2013 05:02 AM
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xcriteria Offline
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RE: "Rough Drafts"

(10-09-2013 05:02 AM)brainiac3397 Wrote:  I don't necessarily write a "rough draft", but I do find that once I finish writing an essay and go back over it, I really end up polishing it up.

Usually the 1st go over suffices, but if I go over 2 more times, I'll have a pretty neat essay prepared.

It took me a long time before I started developing the ability to do this. In the past, I would just write things (walls of text) and move on. I only wrote a handful of things for school over many years.

It takes a different state of mind to go back and re-read, re-write, and edit. I've started doing more of that, sometimes a lot more, as I've started writing more walls of text in discussion contexts over the past year. I could do a better job, still. But at some point, it's a judgment call, when to just hit send, when to put something in a buffer (or delete) it and not send, and when to go back over and re-write.

Usually with conversational replies, there's a point where I realize I need to treat what I'm writing more like an essay (and polish it), than a comment that I'm just writing off the top of my head. I'm still improving... I know the longer (and less coherent) something is, the less likely it is to get read (let alone responded to in much detail.)

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10-09-2013 12:22 PM
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brainiac3397 Offline
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Post: #5
"Rough Drafts"

I didn't start doing it till after finishing high school. While writing something(I forget what), I realized that when I went over it, I cut out excess words and replaced weaker words with better fitting ones. Then I said "Huh, this looks a lot better to read!" and now it's something I'll do at least once.

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(06-14-2013 08:02 AM)Potato Wrote:  watch the fuq out, we've got an "intellectual" over here.

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10-09-2013 12:29 PM
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154bmag Offline
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Post: #6
"Rough Drafts"

My teachers usually assign a rough draft, then a final draft, then a final FINAL draft

"When will the world listen to reason? I have a feeling it'll be a long time." --Dexter Holland

"Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have. The course of history shows as government grows, liberty decreases. " --Thomas Jefferson
10-09-2013 01:18 PM
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brainiac3397 Offline
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Post: #7
"Rough Drafts"

No "Finally finalized final draft"?

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(06-14-2013 08:02 AM)Potato Wrote:  watch the fuq out, we've got an "intellectual" over here.

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10-09-2013 01:32 PM
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xcriteria Offline
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RE: "Rough Drafts"

(10-09-2013 12:29 PM)brainiac3397 Wrote:  I didn't start doing it till after finishing high school. While writing something(I forget what), I realized that when I went over it, I cut out excess words and replaced weaker words with better fitting ones. Then I said "Huh, this looks a lot better to read!" and now it's something I'll do at least once.

This is the kind of lesson that's missing in school. How often do you hear a teacher explain moments when they had a cognitive realization like that? Especially when it wasn't in the context of school...

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10-09-2013 11:40 PM
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..V.. Offline
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Post: #9
"Rough Drafts"

How many times would you actually make an essay?
A lot of people don't have office jobs.

10-10-2013 02:34 AM
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Subb Offline
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Post: #10
"Rough Drafts"

It's hard to explain, but I kinda edit in my head. I don't need to revise, because I already spent a good chunk of time thinking "What's the best what to say this". I go back, but I rarely change anything.

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10-10-2013 04:04 AM
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brainiac3397 Offline
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RE: "Rough Drafts"

(10-10-2013 02:34 AM)..V.. Wrote:  How many times would you actually make an essay?
A lot of people don't have office jobs.

I don't think it'll be akin to essays unless your going into the field of academia or research. Everything will most likely be briefings and reports, simple and to the point.

And a lot of people will have something akin to an "office-job", if they're college grads. If you've got a computer,a desk and a chair, you've got yourself an office. Add a job to it and now it's an office job. Almost every one of those "college-level"(that were once upon a time something any hih school grad could apply to) all have writing involved. But like I say above, it's less likely to be formal essays and research papers, and more likely shorter and simpler writings.

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(06-14-2013 08:02 AM)Potato Wrote:  watch the fuq out, we've got an "intellectual" over here.

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10-10-2013 04:19 AM
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no Offline
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Post: #12
RE: "Rough Drafts"

I don't make rough drafts. Or rather I never do complete drafts. Usually I start improving the beginning of something while I'm about 40% through, and by the time I have a rough version of the end the beginning parts are more or less as good as they are going to get.

Hello, traveler.

This is an ancient account I have not used in a long time. My views have changed much in the intervening months and years.

Nonetheless, I refuse to clean it up. Pretending that I've held my current views since the beginning of time is what we in the industry call a lie. Asking people to do so contributes to moralistic self-loathing. "See, those people have nothing damning! I do! I'm truly vile!"

Because you can never be a good person with a single blemish on the moral record, I thought that simply entertaining some thoughts made me irredeemable. Though I don't care for his writing style, William Faulkner presents a good counterexample. He went from being a typical Southern racist to supporting the civil rights movement. These days we'd yell at him for that, probably.

People are allowed to change their views.

Nevertheless, this period of my life has informed some of how I am today. In good ways and bad ways. To purge it would be to do a disservice to history. Perhaps it will not make anyone sympathetic, but it may help someone understand.

If, after reading all this, you still decide to use the post above as evidence that I am evil today, ask yourself if you have never disagreed with the moral code you now follow. In all likelihood you did, at some point. If some questions are verboten, and the answer is "how dare you ask that," don't expect your ideological opponents to ever change their minds.
10-10-2013 06:11 AM
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xcriteria Offline
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RE: "Rough Drafts"

(10-10-2013 02:34 AM)..V.. Wrote:  How many times would you actually make an essay?
A lot of people don't have office jobs.

I'd say the ability to write things like forum and blog posts, letters, and a range of other things are more likely than "essays" or "term papers."

Really, I think writing could be addressed in a lot more comprehensive way, and linked to coverage of metacognition, creative thinking, and even how to speak and listen.

And, once you do that, it becomes clear that there are other tools that can help with both thinking and communication. Really, why have everything broken up into subjects?

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10-10-2013 06:35 AM
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xcriteria Offline
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RE: "Rough Drafts"

One kind of writing that's actually pretty common in online classes, as well as useful in general for life online, is writing as part of online discussions.

We're even doing that now.

Here's a document I came across on G+ today, 10 Reasons Students Don’t Participate in Online Discussions & How to Remedy Each. It's geared toward teachers, but I'm thinking that learners should learn everything teachers do, at least if they want to change their experience of education.

Actually, maybe that should go in a new thread...

But even that's an example of a kind of writing skill that's relevant to online discussions, but not so much one-off essays: when do you merge or split topics?

Even this thread vs. V's other thread on essays is an example of that question... they probably could have gone in one thread, but one feature of the online world is that people get to choose their style (within reason.)

One more "topic school doesn't cover" to add to the list.

Peter Gray & allies launching the Alliance for Self-directed Education

ASDE Newsletters: #1 Announcement | #2 History of ASDE | #6 Education Liberation


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10-10-2013 06:40 AM
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Ky Offline
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Post: #15
"Rough Drafts"

Rough drafts are for the sheep. If I revise at all, I do it section-by-section starting from the most glaring errors and finishing with the least obvious problems.

Public Service Announcement: First world problems are still problems.
10-10-2013 08:51 AM
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brainiac3397 Offline
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Post: #16
"Rough Drafts"

BAAHH!
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(06-14-2013 08:02 AM)Potato Wrote:  watch the fuq out, we've got an "intellectual" over here.

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10-10-2013 01:20 PM
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