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To everyone who joined these forums at some point, and got discouraged by the negativity and left after a while (or even got literally scared off): I'm sorry.

I wasn't good enough at encouraging people to be kinder, and removing people who refuse to be kind. Encouraging people is hard, and removing people creates conflict, and I hate conflict... so that's why I wasn't better at it.

I was a very, very sensitive teen. The atmosphere of this forum as it is now, if it had existed in 1996, would probably have upset me far more than it would have helped.

I can handle quite a lot of negativity and even abuse now, but that isn't the point. I want to help people. I want to help the people who need it the most, and I want to help people like the 1996 version of me.

I'm still figuring out the best way to do that, but as it is now, these forums are doing more harm than good, and I can't keep running them.

Thank you to the few people who have tried to understand my point of view so far. I really, really appreciate you guys. You are beautiful people.

Everyone else: If after everything I've said so far, you still don't understand my motivations, I think it's unlikely that you will. We're just too different. Maybe someday in the future it might make sense, but until then, there's no point in arguing about it. I don't have the time or the energy for arguing anymore. I will focus my time and energy on people who support me, and those who need help.

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Anyone wanna hear my friends pro school argument thing?
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coffee Offline
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Post: #1
Anyone wanna hear my friends pro school argument thing?

I'm bored and this is sorta stressing me.
So I dropped out and he's wondering why and stuff.
Not trying to make this a dick move btw, just thought you guys might be interested. Ohgodwhatifhefindsthis.jpg


Quote:...you have know proof of what you know until you graduate.

Then what are your plans for the future, hm? Just doing small jobs where they will hire anyone?

And I wouldn't call it regurgitated, really, since it's helpful and not at all bad for your future, whether or not you like it

Me: schoolashit.avi

Quote:It could at the moment, but when I graduate then there will be proof provided by the school system that I have the ability to do certain jobs.

A choice, though? That is not a good idea at all, really. Well, it is a choice; take it or don't take it. But if you don't take it then what are you going to do? Sure you could get jobs, but, as I've said, you have no evidence that you have the required skills for that job.

Everyone already knows the school system is not perfect, but that's a rather poor excuse to drop out of it even so. School will sharpen your mind if you are willing to learn, but you are expecting too much and are really only wanting to find ways to avoid it all together. If not, then prove me wrong and go to school to show how you aren't trying to avoid it.

We need compulsory courses, math, phys ed, ELA, because they are the one most used in the real world, and phys ed, I think, is just there for you to exercise a little in your life, but there's probably more.

What you are not understanding is that school provides the proof that you can do something. You can say you can do something all you like, but they won't believe always you, but if you have taken the course and passed it with good marks then they know that you are able to do the job. Sure we learn about a lot of stuff, but that's because it helps us understand the concepts.

Don't try to be the change in something that's already trying to change, for your impact, however sizable it may be, will be look over and ignored for change that could improve the school system even more.

And I am not saying you're an idiot for not going to school, but it's just much harder to find a good paying job without school and college work to back you up.


So now I have to respond and I'm desperately trying to keep my cool and make a solid-ish retort.
10-02-2013 01:16 AM
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Smudge Offline
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Post: #2
RE: Anyone wanna hear my friends pro school argument thing?

Anyone in the real world knows a college degree means absolute jackshit.

Just show him some examples of montessori or homeschooled kids making their own path because they aren't forced to follow a rigid boring one. Where's that xcriteria guy when you need him?
10-02-2013 01:22 AM
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UnschoolShqiponjë Offline
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Post: #3
RE: Anyone wanna hear my friends pro school argument thing?

First off just because a law requires degrees for jobs and that to get those degrees you need school does not mean school is good. It depends on what you want to do too. Some jobs it will be impossible to get without a degree sadly. Others no degree is necessary. For most jobs the schooling is not what helps you get good at the job, but the experience of actually working the job does.

Compulsory courses often do mirror what is most used in real life, at least until middle school. Even then all subject matter can be learned easier and with more fun at home. Depending on the parents at least. School needs to change itself. It needs to be more about human learning, not this artificial form of learning meant to instill obedience and uniform thought. This is not even a debatable point. School was created to get kids off the streets after they were banned from working. It was based off a model of schooling that was meant to instill obedience to authority. It has changed little since then. Finland has a much better schooling system.

Live until you die
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(This post was last modified: 10-02-2013 01:48 AM by UnschoolShqiponjë.)
10-02-2013 01:47 AM
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brainiac3397 Offline
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RE: Anyone wanna hear my friends pro school argument thing?

(10-02-2013 01:22 AM)Smudge Wrote:  Anyone in the real world knows a college degree means absolute jackshit.

Just show him some examples of montessori or homeschooled kids making their own path because they aren't forced to follow a rigid boring one. Where's that xcriteria guy when you need him?

It may mean jackshit, but it's still a requirement for many jobs that won't even bother to look at your application if you can't present one. I believe they substitute it with job experience.(Since some says X degree OR Z years of experience).

And I agree that until middle school do classes really teach. Has anyone ever felt how every year after felt more like reviews than actual learning? I always had that feeling gnawing at me, the sense I was just getting recycled material over and over again. The same stuff being taught with different fluff.

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(06-14-2013 08:02 AM)Potato Wrote:  watch the fuq out, we've got an "intellectual" over here.

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10-02-2013 03:45 AM
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Lime Offline
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Post: #5
Anyone wanna hear my friends pro school argument thing?

Quote:A choice, though? That is not a good idea at all, really.
So human rights aren't supposed to be good now? Really.
Quote:Sure you could get jobs, but, as I've said, you have no evidence that you have the required skills for that job.
Hey, not my problem that businesses can't accept someone without a meaningless slip of paper that says they passed multiple years of prison.
Grades don't measure how well you know something, they show how much of a specific assignment you got correct at that point in time.
Quote:School will sharpen your mind if you are willing to learn
So independent learning that occurs outside of school doesn't?
Quote:but you are expecting too much and are really only wanting to find ways to avoid it all together. If not, then prove me wrong and go to school to show how you aren't trying to avoid it.
Sweet Jesus, aren't I such a lazy bastard for not wanting to go somewhere that violates my freedom, has no respect for my rights, and makes me do involuntary unpaid labor! That's like saying a slave is trying to avoid harsh plantation work...OK, so why the hell is this supposed to reflect badly on them?
Quote:We need compulsory courses, math, phys ed, ELA, because they are the one most used in the real world, and phys ed, I think, is just there for you to exercise a little in your life, but there's probably more.
Compulsory courses are not necessary for learning, and in fact you will probably kill a student's enthusiasm by forcing work and imposing an unforgiving grade and competition system on them.
Try pointing him out to Sudbury Valley school.
Quote:What you are not understanding is that school provides the proof that you can do something.
No, it doesn't.
Quote:You can say you can do something all you like, but they won't believe always you
Once again, that's their problem.
See, all school really provides is a diploma saying you went through it and your GPA. If you removed the need for both, and instead had job/college applicants demonstrate that they knew what they were doing, our public school system would not help at all.
(This post was last modified: 10-02-2013 12:42 PM by Lime.)
10-02-2013 12:41 PM
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xcriteria Offline
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Post: #6
Anyone wanna hear my friends pro school argument thing?

(10-02-2013 01:22 AM)Smudge Wrote:  Just show him some examples of montessori or homeschooled kids making their own path because they aren't forced to follow a rigid boring one. Where's that xcriteria guy when you need him?

This is a tough one. I'd start here by asking, is this a conversation? Is this person even open to looking at things differently?

"Then what are your plans for the future, hm?"

This is a good question. It doesn't have to be asked in a snide manner that imposes a single-minded view of possible life paths. What's the motivation for this person to add that next sentence about "any job"?

One thing school might not teach you: how to take a moment and breathe between questions and answers.

In conversations like this, ask what's driving the structure of the conversation. Is there any desire to learn, is there a coherent argument, or is it just the weaving together of fragments of arguments? What's motivating the fragments?

There are many paths in life, and in an interconnected, information-saturated world, many opportunities to change paths. It's easy to get stuck in habits, routines, and situations... but if you develop some awareness of the big picture, and of your life as a whole, and develop a better map of the world, there are many paths to go down and try out. How do you build up that map?

This talk by novelist and YouTuber John Green uses maps as a metaphor, and gets into how useful many people find YouTube to be for learning... and how finding a supportive community can support learning:



Watch on YouTube

More tips

Whenever discussing education, it's important to distinguish between several distinct goals:

learning things (which can happen in a number of ways: reading, watching lectures, having a conversation, trying something out, asking a question, taking a moment to reflect, getting feedback, repeated practice, seeing examples, daydreaming, linking past experience to current observations, and so on...)

assessing knowledge or ability and representing it to employers, clients, parents, people you want to impress, etc. (There are many ways to do this... including sites like Accredible and Degreed [related thread], badges, testimonials, various kinds of tests and certifications done outside of school, portfolios, creative resumes, and so on.)

connecting with people and developing relationships -- this is one reason people go to school, and can be one way to learn. (There are, as you might guess, other ways to do this, including school-alternative programs, getting in touch with possible mentors, participating in communities of various kinds, and so on.)

There are multiple ways to do each of these things. School or classes at various levels can help, but they can also be ineffective. How do you judge their effectiveness? That's a whole conversation in itself... but it's clear that some instances of school result in learning for some people. And, it's true that degrees and credentials open some doors for some people. But there are many doors and many ways to open them.

So, what's a person to do, with all those options?

The best path(s) to take depends in part on how much risk and uncertainty you're comfortable with, and what kind of career paths or work environments you may prefer. If you plan on being a freelancer of some kind, your main ticket to work will be your portfolio, references, networking, and maybe some kind of marketing. If you want a corporate job of some kind, a degree might be required. However, many hires occur simply on the basis of people knowing another person.

That gets into one reason for school -- to meet people -- but especially with the Internet, there are many ways to do that. Where do you learn how to take advantage of that approach? In school? (I suppose it depends on the school.)

The homeschooling side of things

Many people in the US homeschool, including the more open-ended form called unschooling. Familiarize yourself with this option, and see if your conversation partner is willing to learn more about it. There are a lot of misconceptions about homeschooling, and more than one way to do it.

Some references:
Hidden stuff:

10 Thoughts by an Educator about Homeschooling (and Why I’m Still Worried)

Deconstructing Unschooling Youtube channel (Amy Milstein, an unschooling mom and blogger)
http://www.youtube.com/user/UnschoolingNYC/videos

John Stossel interview about unschooling:


Watch on YouTube

The dropout problem... and the unskilled graduate problem

Many people drop out of school... and many who graduate from school lack critical skills for living in the world. What are those skills, and where do they come from?

That's another discussion to have. Learning about learning tends to require an extended sequence of conversations... and only by being interested in learning about learning ("metacognition") are those conversations likely to turn into meaningful learning experiences. Having a conversation where the only point is to "win" isn't the best way to go about learning.

I've linked a lot of videos where people talk about school, what's wrong with it, and how learning and teaching might be done better. For the purposes of a discussion about education, it's useful for people to be familiar with some of the same points of reference.

But that requires some time to go through and watch and read and ask questions about these various talks and articles and conversations. Since none of them tend to be required for graduation, and they can take a long time to track down, many people aren't familiar with them.

If you have the time and inclination to dig through various talks, articles, and discussion threads, check out the walls of text, and talks, and links on this thread:

Ken Robinson: How to escape education's death valley (new TED talk)

My last comment there (so far) has a bunch of links to other threads on here. I'm trying to build a castle of links. Smile

brainiac3397 Wrote:Has anyone ever felt how every year after felt more like reviews than actual learning? I always had that feeling gnawing at me, the sense I was just getting recycled material over and over again. The same stuff being taught with different fluff

Yeah, definitely. It's even worse when people keep saying, year after year, you just have to keep going for another year, and then you'll get to more advanced material. Many years later, trying various classes, scouring the web, lecture videos, academic papers, and all that... I think it's mostly been fluff.

There has to be a better way to learn.

Peter Gray & allies launching the Alliance for Self-directed Education

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10-02-2013 05:38 PM
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RashedMohamed Offline
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Post: #7
RE: Anyone wanna hear my friends pro school argument thing?

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Pass away long, pointless hours with our bumper list of things to do when you're well and truly bored
(© urban75, 1996-2011)

1. THINGS YOU CAN DO WITH ABSOLUTELY NOTHING

Blink wildly and then close your eyes really tight for an interesting light show
(Amusement Potential: 1-5 minutes)
See a variety of blobs, stars and flashes. Try to make out shapes and see if your subconscious is trying to send you a message (perhaps that funny shape is saying, 'send all your money to urban75.com'?)

Read more ... Bored? Listless? Help is at hand!
10-03-2013 02:35 AM
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coffee Offline
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Post: #8
Anyone wanna hear my friends pro school argument thing?

Thanks for the feedback guys Smile
I'll be sure to read and watch the stuff you referred.
and here's the response to mine (I didn't mention the stuff you guys said because I sent the message back before I read the responses.)


Me ->"A GED is thing it seems and although they're pretty much the same thing, a GED comes with a lot more alone time for myself which I value greatly."

Him ->Oh yes, hm? That's all you get out of a GED? Well, I guess I already understood that you don't really have an appreciation for proper knowledge, rather than generalized.


"I think you're talking about a university diploma here. Because I don't think a high school diploma carries that much importance to your employers beside being a badge that says to them "I'm not retarded". It's mostly experience they care about."

Indeed, I must have been tired when I wrote this. Even so, a college and/or university diploma (take your pick) will help you receive a better paying job, take that how you will (badly, most likely).


"Well that's just dandy.
Thing is, right now it's mostly a one-size-fits-all sort of thing that just doesn't work with some. Basically, I doubt it really 'sharpens you mind' that much, even if you are 'willing'. There's just a bunch of issues with it to be really effective and ethical at the same time. Also I started 'failing' long before I thought about this stuff. And then I dropped out, I don't feel like going back. Personal preferences."

You don't "Feel" like it. Now That's just dandy. Why don't you "feel" like it? Personal preferences seem to lead you by the nose, huh? You really aren't that good at listen to others all the time, I've noticed /lived with.


"They don't need to be compulsory, or at least not after grade 6 or so. I believe people are born curious and ready to understand the world around them, school (along with other things) tends to ruin that curiosity in it's current state. I'm sure most people could learn on their own. I don't think you should force something on someone."

But that's a "belief". They are not really born ready to understand; rather they are born and forced to understand, as we are always learning whether we want to or not. With classes, that learning is divided up so it's understandable to a better extent (still not perfect, but still). Courses that are compulsory are the courses we are most likely going to use/need (math is debatable).


"I already understand that it provides proof, but I'm skeptical about the 'understanding concepts' part. Even if you do pass, will it be worth the years you spent trying to memorize everything?"

That depends on how you use it and what you get out of it, really. As of now, it would be impossible to say.


"How is it changing? Besides shoveling money into something broken."

Everything is changing. We are in an ever changing world. Teachers know the school system is broken, and so do the administrators. And they need money, as does everything. It may be broken, but if it works then it works and can still make the state money.

too lazy to put it in quotes
10-03-2013 03:37 AM
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SoulRiser Offline
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Post: #9
Anyone wanna hear my friends pro school argument thing?

Well, it kinda sounds like he cares about you and is actually worried that this might turn out badly for you... and it also kinda sounds like he's being condescending at the same time.

You really want to convince this person? Live a happy life, have enough money for whatever you want, do fun things... that's all the proof you need. Sure, you can't do that in a message... but meh. I gave up on trying to convince people of anything many years ago. Razz

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10-03-2013 09:05 AM
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WhatEvenIsThis Offline
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Post: #10
RE: Anyone wanna hear my friends pro school argument thing?

Oh fucking shit... I literally cringed at seeing this AWFUL pro-argument. I felt so uncomfortable reading all that... that I want to destroy an entire solid wall with my fists to get all my anger out!

This.... THIS, is just about EVERYONE in my school who I try to tell what other ideas I have (My family as well), and it PISSES ME OFF how DENSE they all are and dare to think they know what is right for me...
10-27-2013 01:46 AM
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brainiac3397 Offline
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Post: #11
Anyone wanna hear my friends pro school argument thing?

I'd be more liking of a college diploma if it meant something. Exactly how much knowledge does someone with a Bachelor's degree from a 4-year university have?

If you slice 2 years spent on Gen-Eds, then you're pretty much really only knowledgeable in 4 semesters worth of knowledge.

Then you've got the psychotic people like me who will absolutely refuse to take a required Gen-Ed(both for being a gen-ed and for possessing the word "required"). As far as I know, most course related classes don't have any gen-ed as a prerequisite(it seems that the gen-eds are requirements for graduating or compliance with school policy rather than being something related to courses). If I spend those 4 years learning towards my major, and getting into more advanced courses, then not be given a degree, am I less qualified than the kid who learned less but did get a degree for compliance?

In the general scheme of things, college is not much different from the k-12 educational system. Few places really give students a sort of "Free-Ed", not in cost, but in terms of freedom to choose what you want to study. My idea for a degree should be requiring a declared major, and completion of the minimum credits towards it(with that minimum being the minimum number of required courses to be considered qualified for the degree, AKA core courses). Meaning you have great flexibility in making your schedule, because you can then study anything else(maybe even take other core courses that will qualify you for a second degree in another major).

My thought is for removing the "general" from Gen-Ed, and making it more oriented towards whatever major the student goes for, thus including that education into a major-related course without needing to waste money and time on taking a separate course just for that education.

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(06-14-2013 08:02 AM)Potato Wrote:  watch the fuq out, we've got an "intellectual" over here.

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10-27-2013 05:36 AM
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Post: #12
RE: Anyone wanna hear my friends pro school argument thing?

This is what I think of his notion.

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11-08-2013 08:31 PM
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