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Gun Control (and here, we, go......)
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Faroven Offline
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Post: #1
Gun Control (and here, we, go......)

So, as part of my return I sort of explained that my political view changed a bit, and this is part of them. Gun Control is quite a topic in the US, very controversial. What do you think? I'll let you guys go for a bit then put my thoughts out there. TAKE IT AWAYSmile
06-06-2013 01:05 AM
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brainiac3397 Offline
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Gun Control (and here, we, go......)

Gun control may be a tolerable idea if the supporters weren't idiots who wouldn't know a barrel from a recoil buffer. A lot of those on the pro-gun control side act on emotion, never giving strong reasons for why there should be gun control and simply reiterating the same things over and over. They also totally neglect the fact that police aren't legally obligated to protect you, probably because their imbeciles who think they're government will really protect them.

I wouldn't consider myself totally anti-gun control, seeing that there needs to a suitable level to insure you don't get someone with a history of violent outbreaks or history of mental issues possessing a lethal firearm. However, pro-gun control people tend to come up with the stupidest ideas, so I don't really side with them very much.

But that's my opinion...

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(06-14-2013 08:02 AM)Potato Wrote:  watch the fuq out, we've got an "intellectual" over here.

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06-06-2013 04:31 AM
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Faroven Offline
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Post: #3
Gun Control (and here, we, go......)

... are you a /k/ommando? You'd fit right in with us. But I'll refrain from splurging yet until I get more responses.
06-06-2013 05:37 AM
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Gun Control (and here, we, go......)

I never really visited 4chan. It just never really appealed to me Razz

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(06-14-2013 08:02 AM)Potato Wrote:  watch the fuq out, we've got an "intellectual" over here.

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06-06-2013 07:40 AM
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Night Offline
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RE: Gun Control (and here, we, go......)

Guns are the symptom of a bigger problem.

If you're sick, you don't want to just treat the symptoms. You want to get rid of the whole problem.

That's my stand.

And on behalf of Connecticut, for starting this whole gun regulation bullshit, I apologize.

Also, both sides of these issue seems to be filled with total idiots.

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06-06-2013 04:08 PM
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Potato Offline
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Post: #6
Gun Control (and here, we, go......)

the amount of guns ppl have correlates directly with the amount of ppl getting shot when you compare nations and states, so you're basically weighing the lives of tens of thousands people each year against a minor, not-very-necessary-for-the-common-citizen freedom to bear arms and the "sanctity" of the bill of rights. but i don't think the question is really an objective one, both sides have valid arguments that don't contradict each other, there are pros and cons to both. my own leaning is towards the anti-gun-control side because the chances of me or anyone i know ever getting shot is kinda slim, so the main pro-gun-control argument doesn't really matter to me.
06-06-2013 10:58 PM
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LightAbyssion Offline
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RE: Gun Control (and here, we, go......)

I'm Canadian and I hate guns, but I'm posting to say I'm anti-gun control. I'll only be for it once the US changes "home of the free, land of the brave" to something more cowardly. The founding fathers wanted everyone to keep their guns to fight off inevitable tyranny. If you let the government know who owns guns, the moment a rebellion begins they'll just knock on gun owners' doors and take all firearms. I don't think either side of the gun control debate can claim to know better than men who have overthrown a government. I think the government already has too much power... control of firearms will just worsen things.

Anyway, this wasn't directed at any of y'all. I've just been doing a lot of research over gun control and no matter how I look at it, gun control is built on irrational paranoia.
(This post was last modified: 06-07-2013 09:19 PM by LightAbyssion.)
06-07-2013 09:11 PM
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brainiac3397 Offline
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Gun Control (and here, we, go......)

Most pro-gun control tend to not have a strong argument against the "against tyranny" thing. Usually they refute it by placing an emphasis on government services("We won't have a tyrannical government if our government is a tyranny!" is what I seem to get from it). Or they "uphold democratic means", as if that'll do anything.

I see it like this(by extremity):

Pro-Gun Control: Naive and Idealistic
Anti-Gun Control:Paranoid and Radical

So, it's best not even to be anywhere on that line.

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(06-14-2013 08:02 AM)Potato Wrote:  watch the fuq out, we've got an "intellectual" over here.

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06-07-2013 11:41 PM
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Faroven Offline
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RE: Gun Control (and here, we, go......)

Alright, been a couple days so I'll weigh in. I'm rather anti-gun control. Mainly because the people who make gun-control laws know fuck-all about guns. They're all "hurr durr muh AR-15's, muh AK's, muh CHILLUNS, MUH SANDY HOOK, MUH FEELS". They're fucktarded. Honestly, these people must live on fucking Mars. They appeal to emotion rather than reason, and make ill-informed decisions based on hasty generalizations. It's sickening.
06-10-2013 03:26 PM
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Rule_BreakerXVIII Offline
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Post: #10
Gun Control (and here, we, go......)

well, I'm not from the U.S. so I'm not that familiar with the debate. But to me it'd make the most sense to authorize certain guns like pistols or similar handguns for self-defense, while banning or restricting the possession of guns that could take out a whole mob (like AK-47, for example) to only government or military use.

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05-22-2014 01:44 PM
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Post: #11
Gun Control (and here, we, go......)

Wow, this thread is shit.

(06-06-2013 10:58 PM)Potato Wrote:  my own leaning is towards the anti-gun-control side because the chances of me or anyone i know ever getting shot is kinda slim, so the main pro-gun-control argument doesn't really matter to me.

Thanks for being such a self-centered, shitty poster. Made it easier to get Soul to ban you.

(06-10-2013 03:26 PM)Faroven Wrote:  Alright, been a couple days so I'll weigh in. I'm rather anti-gun control. Mainly because the people who make gun-control laws know fuck-all about guns. They're all "hurr durr muh AR-15's, muh AK's, muh CHILLUNS, MUH SANDY HOOK, MUH FEELS". They're fucktarded. Honestly, these people must live on fucking Mars. They appeal to emotion rather than reason, and make ill-informed decisions based on hasty generalizations. It's sickening.

You mean more sickening than children being shot in the face? I can agree that legislation in the wake of mass murders is not prone to being especially well thought-out, but can you really blame them? Does this preclude more reasoned, common-sense regulation from being written? No and no. I wish legislators were more informed about firearms too, but their general intent to stop people being murdered in cold blood by people who really should not own firearms to be well-founded.

(06-06-2013 04:31 AM)brainiac3397 Wrote:  Gun control may be a tolerable idea if the supporters weren't idiots who wouldn't know a barrel from a recoil buffer. A lot of those on the pro-gun control side act on emotion, never giving strong reasons for why there should be gun control and simply reiterating the same things over and over. They also totally neglect the fact that police aren't legally obligated to protect you, probably because their imbeciles who think they're government will really protect them.

Strong reasons? How about innocent people being killed? That strong enough for you? I do believe that people should be able to defend themselves, and I don't want all firearms banned, but here we have bad 'Stand Your Ground' laws that let racists kill black people, and we have gun deaths and shootings on the rise while nothing is being done about it. The NRA is now an organization of survivalist lunatics who threaten women because they manufacture smart guns, or for having the audacity to not like seeing people being murdered or harassed.

Do ordinary citizens really need assault rifles? A armed rebellion even today wouldn't stand a chance against the largest and most well-funded military in the entire world, which is ours. We cannot prevent every gun murder, no, but we can curtail them. If that's not enough for you, consider that common sense regulation might preserve the life of a future (or currently living) genius who otherwise might have been killed prematurely.

There's also the issue of police and firearms, too. Considering that some American police are prone to abuse and overuse of power (I've seen a good number of stories titled something like "US Cops Shoot 200 Times At Unarmed Suspects"), they're not really much more cut out for handling them.

Jesus.
05-22-2014 02:34 PM
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Ky Offline
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Post: #12
Gun Control (and here, we, go......)

As some have said, both sides are idiots.

But if I had to pick between the idiots who say I should have guns and the idiots who say I shouldn't, I'd side with the guns.

On a side note, I don't see how banning random weapon attachments prevents guns from ending up in the hands of people who should be in an asylum.

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05-23-2014 01:48 AM
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thewake Offline
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Gun Control (and here, we, go......)

"And that the said Constitution be never construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the press, or the rights of conscience; or to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms."
--Samuel Adams

"Are we at last brought to such humiliating and debasing degradation, that we cannot be trusted with arms for our defense?"
--Patrick Henry

"No freeman shall be debarred the use of arms [within his own lands]."
--Thomas Jefferson, Draft Constitution for Virginia

And conversely:

"The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to allow the subject races to possess arms. History shows that all conquerors who have allowed their subject races to carry arms have prepared their own downfall by so doing."
--Adolf Hitler, http://www.archive.org/stream/HitlersTab...9/mode/2up

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05-23-2014 09:02 AM
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Gun Control (and here, we, go......)

Trar, human history is covered with debauchery, slaughter and outright massacre of innocent folk. Disregarding reality for an idealistic world doesn't add any weight to any argument as there is no substance.

Not to mention the balance between everything. One thing builds up, reaches a peak, collapses and other side begins to build. Chaos is followed by order, and vice-versa. Time vs money. Efficiency vs speed. Energy vs matter. Freedom vs Safety.

You can't just bash one entire side of the spectrum and not realize the mutual balance between them. Nothing is perfect, yet why do we strive to create rigid and "perfect" ideas? You can't just say "guns are evil and that's final!". Nor can you say "We'll reach a period where we will not need weapons". Maybe you'll say "Well, we should start now then". Then I will ask "Why should we follow your dream of the future?".

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(06-14-2013 08:02 AM)Potato Wrote:  watch the fuq out, we've got an "intellectual" over here.

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05-23-2014 09:10 AM
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Ky Offline
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RE: Gun Control (and here, we, go......)

(05-23-2014 09:02 AM)W Kuts Wrote:  -snip-

to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms

we cannot be trusted with arms for our defense

allow the subject races to possess arms

These quotes are simply hilarious if you picture limbs rather than guns

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05-23-2014 10:12 AM
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Absnt Offline
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Post: #16
RE: Gun Control (and here, we, go......)

Quote:Guns are the symptom of a bigger problem.

If you're sick, you don't want to just treat the symptoms. You want to get rid of the whole problem.

That's my stand.

I would agree with this, and the bigger problem in my opinion is probably poverty. Among gun related violence, I think it's pretty well established that poverty breeds violence.

Quote:the amount of guns ppl have correlates directly with the amount of ppl getting shot when you compare nations and states

Obviously, but there's not really a correlation between homicide rates and amount of guns. In other words, the amount of guns doesn't do much to the homicide rate, when looking at countries. As shown here, based on some research/graphing performed by wes a while back.

Quote:[Image: b55z7r.jpg]
Correlation coefficient ®: 0.045813409515667

x: intentional homicide rate per 100,000
-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate
y: guns per 100
-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country

Here's the data set I used for 19 countries:
Code:
United States: (4.2,88.8)
Germany: (0.8,30.3)
Australia: (1.0,15)
Norway: (0.6,31.3)
Romania: (2.0,0.7)
Hungary: (1.3,5.5)
Spain: (0.8,10.4)
New Zealand: (0.9,22.6)
Russia: (10.2,8.9)
Bulgaria: (2.0,6.2)
Switzerland: (0.7,45.7)
Finland: (2.2,32)
Ireland: (1.2,8.6)
Canada: (1.6,30.8)
France: (1.1,31.2)
Italy: (0.9,11.9)
South Korea: (2.6,1.1)
Japan: (0.4,0.6)
Austria: (0.6,30.4)

Here's the graph with the United States and Russia excluded:
[Image: 546hj4.jpg]
The correlation coefficient for this graph is: -0.32354086270753

My conclusion: This data shows there is no correlation between the murder rate (intentional homicide rate) and ownership of guns.

Thanks to easy math for stupids website: http://www.alcula.com/calculators/statis...tter-plot/


To further confirm this, take a look at: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/spe...hip/table/


Now, click on % of homicides by guns all the way to the right, and compare that with guns per 100 people. It's pretty much random. I'm not going to make a graph to prove this, but someone else should if they feel so inclined.


Quote:You mean more sickening than children being shot in the face?

This is an appeal to emotion. The overall homicide rate of children 16 and under is 750 per year (estimated based on 2011 results). That's it. 238 involved guns. That means 31 percent. The rest of the murders were comitted with other weapons. So how does that compare to all homicides? It's about 1 percent. One percent of all homicides are children being killed with guns. Children being killed overall amount to five percent. Based on: http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/cri...ta-table-9


Quote:Strong reasons? How about innocent people being killed?

People are going to get killed anyway. Even innocent people.

Quote:We cannot prevent every gun murder, no, but we can curtail them. If that's not enough for you, consider that common sense regulation might preserve the life of a future (or currently living) genius who otherwise might have been killed prematurely.

I think you underestimate a gureilla insurection. I'll quote something I wrote a while back:

Quote:First of all 70 - 80 million adults own guns in the United States, and there's a lot more guns floating around than that, so I don't think we can safely say a revolt is out of the question. We're still having problems in Iraq and Afghanistan and all that nonsense. Given that the U.S in this hypothetical turned into a sort of fascist civil war ridden place, I think enough people would be "insurgents" or freedom fighters or whatever you'd want to call them to prevent complete gubmint domination. Anticipation != ability for complete domination. The U.S military has 2.26 million personnel. (Less than 1% of the U.S population.) Law enforcement = 1.2 million roughly. So even if everyone in both was going to try to put down everyone in the U.S, that adds up to like 1%. Most of which are not combat oriented specialties and a decent amount aren't stationed in the U.S and would require recall, a huge amount would probably switch sides / refuse to fight, blah blah blah.


Given that argument, I don't think that's really likely to happen in the next 5 - 10 years. After that, history has shown us some pretty wild things so I won't say for sure, but just based on gut I doubt it'll happen in the next 50 years. The U.S is still a pretty young country, and most first world countries aren't really the types of countries to go into upheaval. Maybe if you believe sensationalist stuff, but I don't. The real position based on the idea of revolt isn't the eventuality of one occurring, it's the principle of it.

Quote:If you really need an assault rifle, then it's clear you only have it for delusional or malicious reasons.

If you really need it than by definition it's not for delusional reasons. Anyway, having an assault rifle doesn't necessitate having it for delusional or malicious reasons at all.

Quote:Besides, human nature basically shows that those with lethal weapons (designed solely for killing others) have a decent chance of trying to use them for malicious purposes. When you have such a simple way to kill someone, who would blame you for not killing them? I mean, sure, you could kill in so many other ways, but a lot of them would require you to think about it first.

Doubt it:

Quote:http://www.catb.org/esr/guns/gun-control.html


a) the claim that homicide is predominantly a matter of "ordinary law-abiding people" killing a relative or acquaintance because a loaded gun happened to be available in a moment of anger --

This claim is contradicted by every national and local study of homicide. These studies uniformly show that murderers are not "ordinary law-abiding people." Rather, they (like gun accident perpetrators) are highly aberrant individuals, characterized by felony records, alcohol and/or drug dependence and life histories of irrational violence against those around them.{10}

Just to give you a sort of perspective on big this is, if you tried to ban all handguns in the U.S and jail violators, the federal prison system would collapse if it tried to house even 100th of 1% of the tens of millions who would not obey a federal handgun ban. That being said, they wouldn't even make it to prison because the courts would be flooded and would collapse first. Good luck with that, mate. "A few rednecks". This is the United States, you have no idea. Most gun owners are not "rednecks" unless you define a redneck as someone owning a gun.

Quote:inb4 muricaw

Dayum straight.


All that being said, I do support some reasonable gun control policies that are already in place, but not enforced by courts / anyone for a variety of different reasons. A lot of that has to do with an already stretched system trying to process this all. It's just gun control in general will only have so much of an impact on crime. If you want to prevent crime, gun control is a limited way of doing it. There are other more effective things we can do first.


Quote:. If that's not enough for you, consider that common sense regulation might preserve the life of a future (or currently living) genius who otherwise might have been killed prematurely.

Yeah, see above. We already have common sense regulation that isn't even enforced / we don't have the resources. There are better ways to reduce crime.

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(This post was last modified: 05-23-2014 12:47 PM by Absnt.)
05-23-2014 12:41 PM
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Post: #17
Gun Control (and here, we, go......)

Look at Switzerland and its gun laws. Every male citizen is required to own a gun and it has one of the top lowest homicide rates in the world.

I am completely pro-gun. Throw an argument at me.

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05-24-2014 09:43 AM
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Post: #18
Gun Control (and here, we, go......)

Don't forget to mention the males who keep said guns are actually meant to serve as reserve troops(receiving their weapons after finishing their mandatory military training)

Thus they are all technically trained and disciplined professionals.

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(06-14-2013 08:02 AM)Potato Wrote:  watch the fuq out, we've got an "intellectual" over here.

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05-24-2014 10:03 AM
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RE: Gun Control (and here, we, go......)

(05-24-2014 10:03 AM)brainiac3397 Wrote:  Don't forget to mention the males who keep said guns are actually meant to serve as reserve troops(receiving their weapons after finishing their mandatory military training)

Thus they are all technically trained and disciplined professionals.

Hey, maybe its a good thing for them. I was just using them as an example.
I think we can all own assault riffles and bazookas without having to go through military training first.

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05-24-2014 10:07 AM
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Gun Control (and here, we, go......)

Doubtful.

The fact they receive military training makes them far more likely to be responsible when handling a weapon. Not that a non-military person is completely incapable, but military training generally does make one a bit more better at self-discipline.

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(06-14-2013 08:02 AM)Potato Wrote:  watch the fuq out, we've got an "intellectual" over here.

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05-24-2014 10:22 AM
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Post: #21
RE: Gun Control (and here, we, go......)

According to medhelp.com more people die every year from "unintentional falling" than firearms in the US. Falling out of bed while asleep, off a building accidentally... We should really add more safety bars to things I suppose. I imagine it could be controversial though.

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05-25-2014 05:45 PM
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Post: #22
RE: Gun Control (and here, we, go......)

Personally I don't think more gun control is going to do that much. It's the basic assumption that "guns are what cause, or at least are the weapon used, in all this senseless street violence!". I think it's kinda like saying social networking caused political revolutions, when in reality it was the tool used, but not the root cause. Take note that countries like Switzerland and Iceland have an extremely high gun ownership rate. Also take note that people in said countries are very nice (especially Iceland). We've already seen in China where there are practically no guns yet Uyghur militants are managing to commit terrorist actions.

I think there are far better ways to tackle gun violence than just "ban guns!". I think helping people develop empathy and other mind tools in life (such as metacognition) will actually teach the human being to think. "Why am I wearing these colors, why am I about to commit a massacre, why am I doing these drugs?". The "tough love" approach is tried too much and isn't working. We need to completely re-think the way we see the box.

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05-26-2014 03:08 AM
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Absnt Offline
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Post: #23
RE: Gun Control (and here, we, go......)

I don't think a mass-population mind-retooling is really possible at all. I think what we need to do is get our fucking countries (the U.S anyway) priorities straight. Do we want to be spending this much money on "defense" or offensive millitary actions, tax cuts to the wealthiest, and giving away corporate welfare to corporations at the expense of public infastructure, or do we want to reduce crime, innovate, build a world class infastructure, fix the school's we have and ensure they aren't places that can be described as hell, etc.


I'm not concerned about these "massacres" or whatever. They're great for big publicity and media frenzies, but they make up a TINY percentage of shootings. I'm much more concerned with general violence in the inner cities, revenge killings, whatever. These massacres are pretty far and inbetween and rare. Statistically they almost never happen. Still, the solution to both problems imo is going to be the same: Better investment in our future. We cannot move forward if we're just fucking off allowing the government to spend all of our money on shit we don't want or need.

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(This post was last modified: 05-26-2014 03:33 AM by Absnt.)
05-26-2014 03:31 AM
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Post: #24
RE: Gun Control (and here, we, go......)

(05-26-2014 03:31 AM)Absentinsomniac Wrote:  I'm not concerned about these "massacres" or whatever. They're great for big publicity and media frenzies, but they make up a TINY percentage of shootings. I'm much more concerned with general violence in the inner cities, revenge killings, whatever. These massacres are pretty far and inbetween and rare. Statistically they almost never happen. Still, the solution to both problems imo is going to be the same: Better investment in our future. We cannot move forward if we're just fucking off allowing the government to spend all of our money on shit we don't want or need.

Unfortunately, what you described there, absent, is called the black goose. It's an extremely rare yet high-publicity event that manages to shake all corners. Columbine, 9/11, and Waco are examples of this. Often, they take away a lot of attention from actual problems that need to be solved.

(05-26-2014 03:31 AM)Absentinsomniac Wrote:  I don't think a mass-population mind-retooling is really possible at all. I think what we need to do is get our fucking countries (the U.S anyway) priorities straight. Do we want to be spending this much money on "defense" or offensive millitary actions, tax cuts to the wealthiest, and giving away corporate welfare to corporations at the expense of public infastructure, or do we want to reduce crime, innovate, build a world class infastructure, fix the school's we have and ensure they aren't places that can be described as hell, etc.
Perhaps not, but I do think it's worth the time to at least change the education system in order to develop a lot of these skills that we've been discussing on Screenstorming (empathy, metacognition, etc). It'd be interesting to see where that leads to. Not all remedies can be 100% guaranteed and effective.

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(This post was last modified: 05-26-2014 06:14 AM by James Comey.)
05-26-2014 06:12 AM
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Post: #25
Gun Control (and here, we, go......)

I say they should have Gun Control because:
1. You can still have guns, just get checked!
2. Not everyone who shoots people buys guns illegally. It's not a solution to shootings, but it helps.
3. Do you really need to buy 30 guns in one day?

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05-26-2014 08:00 AM
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Chanku Offline
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Post: #26
Gun Control (and here, we, go......)

I'm for Gun Regulation, not control. (also it's important in the words chosen, Control seems to lead to more resistance than regulation.)

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05-26-2014 08:18 AM
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Post: #27
RE: Gun Control (and here, we, go......)

(05-26-2014 08:18 AM)Chanku Wrote:  I'm for Gun Regulation, not control. (also it's important in the words chosen, Control seems to lead to more resistance than regulation.)

"Collateral damage" also sounds nicer than "killing civilians," and "putting Spot to sleep" sounds nicer than "shooting Old Yeller in the head."

But it all means the same thing.

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05-26-2014 08:31 AM
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Chanku Offline
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Post: #28
Gun Control (and here, we, go......)

(05-26-2014 08:31 AM)W Kuts Wrote:  
(05-26-2014 08:18 AM)Chanku Wrote:  I'm for Gun Regulation, not control. (also it's important in the words chosen, Control seems to lead to more resistance than regulation.)

"Collateral damage" also sounds nicer than "killing civilians," and "putting Spot to sleep" sounds nicer than "shooting Old Yeller in the head."

But it all means the same thing.

Not neccessarily. Control typical has a negative view and implies that you may not have control over it, while regulation doesn't have a similar view. Also one for Gun Control may be for banning guns all together, while someone for Regulation just wants the regulation of guns, wants there to be mental health screenings, the regulation of the Gun market.

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05-26-2014 08:46 AM
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Post: #29
Gun Control (and here, we, go......)

People in Newark pretty much get shot every other day. The violent crime rate is like 3x the national average. And the city has a crap government(I'm always hearing about a Newark mayor getting arrested for corruption) and they even decided to cut the police budget due to debt(so state police have to get more involved in policing the city).

The only news coverage is local.

Those currently in government are not likely to be of any use. In fact, the current system of 2-party domination over congress has pretty much eroded the usefulness of the legislature. The effects of the erosion continue to trickle down to state and local municipal governments as well. People enter politics to "win" for their party, not so they can benefit those they represent(and not just their constituents). It's become a game for them, with experts who help "keep a clean image" for politicians and professional campaigners who show candidates how to fuck the American people over and still get their votes.

Of course otherwise how would the right system be profitable?

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05-26-2014 09:09 AM
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thewake Offline
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Post: #30
RE: Gun Control (and here, we, go......)

(05-26-2014 08:46 AM)Chanku Wrote:  
(05-26-2014 08:31 AM)W Kuts Wrote:  
(05-26-2014 08:18 AM)Chanku Wrote:  I'm for Gun Regulation, not control. (also it's important in the words chosen, Control seems to lead to more resistance than regulation.)

"Collateral damage" also sounds nicer than "killing civilians," and "putting Spot to sleep" sounds nicer than "shooting Old Yeller in the head."

But it all means the same thing.

Not neccessarily. Control typical has a negative view and implies that you may not have control over it, while regulation doesn't have a similar view. Also one for Gun Control may be for banning guns all together, while someone for Regulation just wants the regulation of guns, wants there to be mental health screenings, the regulation of the Gun market.

Regulation by the government implies control by the government.

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05-26-2014 09:36 AM
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