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Should we have Affirmative Action?
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..V.. Offline
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Post: #1
Should we have Affirmative Action?

I do not think we do. If a company does not want to have a certain culture in their company, then that is their choice. There should not be a law saying there needs to be an "African American" or "Mexican" in the company. This is like reverse racism. I bet if there was an all "African American" owned company, the law wouldn't require a white man in the company. So why should it be the other way around?
What are your opinions?

03-23-2013 01:05 AM
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Ky Offline
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Should we have Affirmative Action?

This whole talk of "reparation", if anything, is still discrimination of race. It still divides us.

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03-23-2013 03:29 AM
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thewake Offline
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Should we have Affirmative Action?

I think we need to enslave white people. Only then will balance in the universe be restored.

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03-23-2013 03:40 AM
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Should we have Affirmative Action?

We already did that long before black people were enslaved. Actually, we're currently at the stage of enslaving the east asians. Whites were first though. How do you think we got so good at it? Biggrin

Affirmative Action is a horrible idea. How many of the "African-Americans" actually even had family in the US as slaves? Do these guys really need Affirmative Action:

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(06-14-2013 08:02 AM)Potato Wrote:  watch the fuq out, we've got an "intellectual" over here.

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03-23-2013 04:32 AM
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Potato Offline
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Should we have Affirmative Action?

imo the purpose of law should be to protect the rights of every person as an individual. the law you're describing is unfair and racist in principle, but forcing every business to have a black employee or whatever isn't really that big of a deal...but this is an example of "reverse racism" resulting in actual discrimination: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012...dmissions/
03-23-2013 04:50 AM
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RE: Should we have Affirmative Action?

(03-23-2013 04:32 AM)brainiac3397 Wrote:  Actually, we're currently at the stage of enslaving the east asians.
Wat.

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03-23-2013 06:57 AM
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Should we have Affirmative Action?

Sorry, It's called "Job Outsourcing" nowadays, like how it was called "involuntary servitude" instead of slavery.

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(06-14-2013 08:02 AM)Potato Wrote:  watch the fuq out, we've got an "intellectual" over here.

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03-23-2013 07:35 AM
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thewake Offline
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Should we have Affirmative Action?

To be sure, there are some nations like China where the government probably forces people to work in the factories, but in most places it's not anything like that. It's not slavery.

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03-23-2013 11:27 AM
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Potato Offline
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RE: Should we have Affirmative Action?

(03-23-2013 11:27 AM)Wes Wrote:  To be sure, there are some nations like China where the government probably forces people to work in the factories...

do you just pull up information like that from out ur ass? where did you get the idea that slavery still exist in china?

Quote:Sorry, It's called "Job Outsourcing" nowadays, like how it was called "involuntary servitude" instead of slavery.

how the fuck is taking up a job involuntary?
03-23-2013 03:20 PM
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Ky Offline
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RE: Should we have Affirmative Action?

(03-23-2013 03:20 PM)Potato Wrote:  
(03-23-2013 11:27 AM)Wes Wrote:  To be sure, there are some nations like China where the government probably forces people to work in the factories...

do you just pull up information like that from out ur ass? where did you get the idea that slavery still exist in china?

...Do you mean to tell me that the abysmal working conditions in China aren't common knowledge?

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03-23-2013 03:29 PM
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RE: Should we have Affirmative Action?

(03-23-2013 03:29 PM)DoA Wrote:  
(03-23-2013 03:20 PM)Potato Wrote:  
(03-23-2013 11:27 AM)Wes Wrote:  To be sure, there are some nations like China where the government probably forces people to work in the factories...

do you just pull up information like that from out ur ass? where did you get the idea that slavery still exist in china?

...Do you mean to tell me that the abysmal working conditions in China aren't common knowledge?

no, i mean to tell you that they aren't "forced to work in factories" they can apply for jobs and everything. i don't think they have laws against vagrancy
03-23-2013 03:49 PM
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brainiac3397 Offline
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Should we have Affirmative Action?

Not forced to work? sure. Do they really have any other choice?

Either they work and get whatever meager sum, or they don't and end up dead on streets. Sure, they have a choice, but by the look of it, it's a form of "passive" forcing, where you don't really have any other choice(except maybe becoming a criminal, but I don't think a Chinese jail is someplace anyone wants to be in)

Slavery exists, it's just become more subtle(There have been slaves who were paid you know? The only thing that probably changed was that instead of forcefully grabbing them to make slaves, now they're given a choice to either work at a low wage, or end up starving)

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(06-14-2013 08:02 AM)Potato Wrote:  watch the fuq out, we've got an "intellectual" over here.

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Should we have Affirmative Action?

(03-23-2013 07:02 PM)brainiac3397 Wrote:  Not forced to work? sure. Do they really have any other choice?

Either they work and get whatever meager sum, or they don't and end up dead on streets.

yes, those are the choices of an average free person, work or complete poverty. so yes, in a sense they don't really have a choice, but there is no "force" except nature itself that forces us all to work to survive, they aren't forced to work on threat of active punishment from another person, that's why it's not slavery. slavery is when someone actively exert power to force another person to work. you think that if the Chinese government were to disappear, all the people there would get a third option of get-paid-for-not-working?
03-24-2013 04:00 AM
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Should we have Affirmative Action?

Yes, but a free person in the Western countries have the power to influence their workplace. These people are basically told to "shut up and work" or go find another job.

The conditions these people work in are the sort that Europe and America had during the period of Industrial Revolution, with no real or minimal concern for the health of their employees. How many people died in that Bengali fire?

Slavery is when you actively exert power to force someone to work, but it doesn't have to be physical power. Poverty in those nations are terrible, yet work conditions are no better. They're left with either continuing on with the harsh work conditions or the harsh conditions of being without a job. They don't have that third choice most Western workers have in making their workplace safer and their wages equal to the work they do. It's as much as like slavery when you either suffer and earn that meager wage in that hell-hole of a factory or lose your job to someone else willing to suffer more than you.

If you might remember, America went through such a phase in the past and there was quite an push back to such treatment. Yet America, while insuring to protect the workers in the country, find it to be beneficial to keep the workers of other nations in such inhumane ways.

So it's only a new, subtle form of slavery replacing the older style that was visible and more directly physical. The people have no other choice but to work, and their employers know this and abuse them constantly knowing that(along with the worker) any sign of resistance or retaliation will lead to their removal from the job and replacement with another poor sap.

Such treatment is practically along the lines of slavery. The harsh "overseers", the bare-minimum wage for excessive work, the exploitation of the workers and the belief that the "owner" is doing them a favor by giving them the privilege of having a job.

Does this sound like things an "average free person" in the Industrialized West goes through?

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(06-14-2013 08:02 AM)Potato Wrote:  watch the fuq out, we've got an "intellectual" over here.

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Post: #15
Should we have Affirmative Action?

We have this affirmative action thing here in South Africa. Some people will bitch at me for calling it racism, but fuck that, it's still discrimination. Not exactly a step in the right direction. I can understand favouring "previously disadvantaged" people, and that's fine by me, but you can't just go and assume everyone of a certain skin colour is/was disadvantaged... doesn't work that way.

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RE: Should we have Affirmative Action?

(03-23-2013 04:32 AM)brainiac3397 Wrote:  [Image: coming.jpg]

Do these men look disadvantaged because their black?

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(06-14-2013 08:02 AM)Potato Wrote:  watch the fuq out, we've got an "intellectual" over here.

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RE: Should we have Affirmative Action?

(03-24-2013 05:19 AM)brainiac3397 Wrote:  Slavery is when you actively exert power to force someone to work, but it doesn't have to be physical power.

you can't force someone to do something through inaction, you can't exert power by not doing something, or not hiring someone. it's forced when they hunt down escaping slaves with dogs, or arrest people for not having a joblink. i agree with most of what you said but it's incorrect to call it "forced" or "slavery."
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Post: #18
Should we have Affirmative Action?

I wasn't talking about abysmal working conditions, because abysmal working conditions are not slavery. There have been cases in China where people are forced to work:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/11/techno...d=all&_r=0
http://www.clb.org.hk/en/content/police-...ced-labour
Let me qualify and state that, most likely, the majority of labor in China's factories is voluntary, but obviously at least a little of it forced.

On a related note, it's a fact that when people are given a choice among the lives they lead in these countries and the chance to work in factories that supposedly have awful working conditions, they usually choose to work in the factories. It's not slavery, it's economic development. These factories, these so-called sweat shops, are a better alternative to the awful conditions of misery and malnutrition that the many people in developed countries face.



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Should we have Affirmative Action?

They choose to work in the factories because they don't have any other choice.

You don't need to interact with the person when you can achieve the same by manipulating the outside factors.

Take a mouse in a maze. You can do it old-fashioned and use your hands to pick that mouse up and change his location at will, making it harder to reach the end for food. But that's too visible and requires constant supervision. Or you could build a maze in such a way(or adjust it), so you make the mouse follow the path you want it to follow, or otherwise starve.

What I'm trying to say is that you aren't required to do anything physically direct to achieve the same results through manipulation of factors. It's basically making you think it's your choice when it's obviously my idea to prevent you from having any other.

It's psychological slavery, not physical. We've just developed a new level of slavery in order to keep it subtle and seemingly not slavery because they can say "Well, they chose to work here". Slavery 2.0 is smarter, more efficient and a heck of a lot cleaner to do when compared to the old-fashioned whip-in-hand type.

And don't even get me started on the sex industry in the east, or the debt bondage.

The motto of today's slavery is: "The slave comes to us!"

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(06-14-2013 08:02 AM)Potato Wrote:  watch the fuq out, we've got an "intellectual" over here.

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Should we have Affirmative Action?

Did you even watch the video?

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03-24-2013 06:39 AM
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Should we have Affirmative Action?

So Protest=Closed Sweat Shop=Unemployed Workers? This is exactly how the manipulation works. This practically says that the worker should accept the harsh conditions, the long work-hours, the low-wage just so the business owner makes a profit to keep the factory open(and his wallet fat). $36 a month to the workers a month to create things sold for 36,000 a month, with the owner getting 90% in his pocket,5% for the factory(because only the machines need to work and there needs to be light and maybe a small fan) and only 5% to cover the wage of the workers(assuming he has 50 workers)?
$1800 to the workers($36 per worker)
$1800 for the factory
$32,400 for the owner(which he'll probably share with the government officials he's got in his pockets and with the managers of the factory who keep the worker's in-line. If we assume 1/3 is kept, he makes 10,800 a month with his workers at $36)
*All hypothetical. Just meant to be Example*

And when the workers are told that they can either work in the hell-hole or be stuck in poverty, They're again being manipulated because the Government and the business owner are practically saying that they should shut up and take the job or go off and die.

It's just the typical American Gilded Age BS. Immigrants were hired to work in those crappy factories till one day a bunch died because of the bad conditions, and people suddenly became aware of how evil this stuff was. America shifted over from this style without any harm to their economy. You didn't see America failing economically till the Great Depression, which was mostly because of everyone going crazy over the great economy that they ended up spending a lot more then they could actually make(AKA borrowed credit).

Any democratic government knows that in the end, the power is in the hands of the people. If the people can pose a large enough threat to cause a watershed movement, the business owners become unable to influence the government and work conditions become better and the closing of sweatshops in only followed by the creation of more legitimate and cleaner industries which still create an overall profit, at a slight loss of the personal gain for the business owners. And no body loses their job.

Sweatshops are closed by their owners, knowing they'd rather not pay to fix the problem and keep whatever money they have and as a weapon against unruly workers who know the owner will just shut it down and leave them without work. But no body says a sweat shop must close because the workers protest the unfair conditions. It's the choice of the owner, who fears personal loss of profit, that shuts it down, not because the protesters want a fair share. The owner could just as easily negotiate a deal to provide better working conditions and better wages yet still keep the business running profitably.

You don't need shitty sweatshops to better your economy. People shouldn't be forced to pick the lesser of two evils(shitty sweatshop or unemployed), they should be given the choice of a good workplace with a proper wage or unemployment. It's why the American government has become so involved in industries and why the government protects the rights of the worker. Heck, even it didn't protect the workers, it certainly doesn't support the owners.

Theodore Roosevelt threatened to send troops to occupy and run anthracite mines when the union strikers and mine owners couldn't come to an agreement. This forced both sides to negotiate a proper deal. The laborers got some benefits and the mine owners got the mine back(Anthracite Mine Strike of 1902). The entire idea behind labor strikes is the continue their push, even if it threatens unemployment, to achieve their victory.

If you look at American history, you will see how laborers fiercely and continually retaliated against the conditions they worked under. They went as far as even getting into actual battles with the National Guard and Company guards to fight for their rights as laborers. They didn't sit in some sweatshop and just go along with the idea that it beat being unemployed and hungry like some weak rabble. All this action led to study into laborer relations and improved the conditions of the laborers.

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(06-14-2013 08:02 AM)Potato Wrote:  watch the fuq out, we've got an "intellectual" over here.

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03-24-2013 07:35 AM
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Post: #22
Should we have Affirmative Action?

Among all the alternatives people have in the actual third world, sweatshops are usually the best option. It's not a matter of manipulation, it's a matter of realizing the real world constraints on our economic problems. These countries cannot suddenly pull decent labor conditions out of nowhere, they have to be slowly and surely built up as the countries' wealth is built up. We're dealing with the real world here and sweatshops are a necessary stepping stone toward a developed economy in which these countries can afford to do away with sweatshop labor.

Sweatshop labor is mutually beneficial. If a person is free to choose their job, without any coercion (and I mean coercion in the sense of force or threat of force, not the expanded definition that other people sometimes use), a person will choose the job that benefits them the most by their own measure of benefit. Most of these people probably value money, so they're choosing jobs that pay more than all the other jobs they could potentially have. As I've stated before, we're dealing with real world constraints, not a world where these people actually have the choice to go to school, work at a grocery store, or work in an office. So, their best option is a sweatshop, and I don't think there's any refuting that.

However, I agree that, in comparison with the standard of living we in the West enjoy, sweatshops are undesirable. I wouldn't want to work in one, and I wouldn't think you would either. So, we ask the question, what is the route that should be taken to eliminate (or at least significantly reduce the number of) sweatshops in the third world?

First, we need to know how not to eliminate sweatshops. Banning sweatshops is a bad idea. It's like banning drugs, prostitution, or alcohol in the sense that it creates more problems than it solves. Sure, you have people no longer working in sweatshops, but at what cost? These people who used to work in sweatshops are now working in the jobs they chose not to work in when the sweatshops were around. There's no unemployment insurance or welfare in third world nations because these countries aren't rich enough to support such a system. I'm not just making this up either because, "5,000 to 7,000 Nepalese children turned to prostitution after the US banned that country’s carpet exports in the 1990s, and after the Child Labor Deterrence Act was introduced in the US, an estimated 50,000 children were dismissed from their garment industry jobs in Bangladesh (source)."

So, if we can't ban sweatshops, because it decreases the choices that people in the Third World have, what can be done to eliminate sweatshops? Simply stated, the U.S. and other developed nations grew themselves out of sweatshops. Yes, some small amount of the push for better conditions and wages has been due to unions and government, but the majority of it has been due to the force of time. We've had time to accumulate capital and become more productive because of our more developed capital.

To further show that it's actually the marketplace that increases workplace safety, in the United States, before the creation of OSHA, workplace fatalities were actually declining:
[Image: work-deaths-pre-and-post-osha.jpg]
(Source)

So, workplace safety in the United States declined because as we became richer and technology improved, we were able to better afford to be safer. In other countries, that is not the case. They're poor. A similar logic can be applied to wages as well. Wage controls just make it too expensive to hire some people who don't create enough value to justify the higher wage.

The take away: Third World countries need to adopt freer economies in order to allow capital to accumulate and production to increase to the level at which they will be able to do away with sweatshops and implement a government funded social safety net. If they adopt a freer economy, this will still take time, but we must live within the constraints of the real world and not lash out at the system, banning things we don't like, without understanding how everything works in the big picture.

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Post: #23
Should we have Affirmative Action?

Tl;dr

Also, when I read "free person", I laughed a considerable amount considering the subject was China. XD

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03-24-2013 11:48 AM
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